Originally posted by Bladestrom If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost.
Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player.
Yup, things usually go well until the phrase "...and most other players..." slips out
It's a dead giveaway, because it's shorhand for: "I'm right and you're wrong, because most people agree with ME, not with you".
On a lighter note axe, have a look at a pilgrim and low sec exploration as a great goal for someone like myself that is proudly pve/pure care bear. Bet you won't find exploring so boring then
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game
was some kind of universal law.
Newsflash: it's not! Different people have different ideas of what is fun, rewarding and interesting. The fact that you got bored of EVE does not mean the game lacks depth or complex, interesting gameplay, just that the game isn't for you - which also means you haven't really experienced all its aspects and thus are not qualified to judge it from an objective viewpoint.
I never made it far into WoW, but I wouldn't dream of coming to the WoW forums claiming that high-end raiding is shallow and requires no skill, just because I personally got bored of the fedex runs and "kill 10 X" questing at level 20.
Let's get things straight.
The non-gameplay I'm describing is objective. You can objectively say that EVE involves more travel time as a percentage of overall gameplay. You can objectively say that 95-99% of the time, the act of traveling involves no decisions (which is non-gameplay.)
Subjectivity only appears when I describe the overall game is not being fun because the type of gameplay lengthy travel buys EVE isn't worth the cost. But the act of traveling lacking meaningful decisions is objective truth.
I've never said EVE lacks depth, so please let's avoid putting lies in others' mouths. I've simply pointed out that the way it achieves depth is sloppy (spamming complexity at the game design,) and that other games achieve similar (or possibly more) depth without the tedious sections of non-gameplay EVE forces on players.
I didn't "come to the EVE forums". The thread was moved. The thread was on-topic where it was created (general gaming.) I disagree with the mods' decision to move any on-topic thread, but that doesn't really matter. I view my posts and their responses through my profile, so the thread was probably here quite a while before I even noticed it wasn't in general gaming anymore.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player.
More people like Rock than Black Metal, but I'm not going to go into a Black Metal forum and ask, "Hey guys, what do you think of music without the screaming?" and expect to have an accurate discussion of how people generally feel about screaming in their music.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your problem is that you crudely classify travelling as a time when there is no gameplay, you are absolutely wrong, there is gameplay. Its like saying when you run between nodes when you are gathering in wow you are only doing something at the point where you actually click on a node, when you are running you at doing nothing.
Asside from this, you have been told people enjoy travelling, there is no desire in the eve game works for instant travel- you are wrong.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Lol that's not what your doing at all axe, you running into a rock concert and telling all the people that are having a great time that you are a designer and they are not having a good time. Bizzare eh.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It seems obvious you are at best equating your opinion with fact and at worse just a poor excuse of a troll. In EVE your choice dictates your degree of enjoyment and the more unrealistic your choices are vs your own capabilities the more you will suffer for it. It does not force downtime on you at all, it forces you to make choices and to, shockingly for your adrenaline fuelled mind that can't seem to go one minute without planting a sword into something, crafting a sword of a thousand truths to then plant it into something or sniffing achievement crank off the nearest doey elven breasts you can find, live with them. It is clear you cannot even comprehend the game let alone fathom what it offers and I truly pity the industry if you are a game developer of any sort.
Also fun fact for you: Today while jumping from system to system doing some exploration I made over 200 mil isk in under 2 hours while my heart was pounding trying to get both the dps down and the neuts off me. It was my choice to explore and learn how to best maximize time spent doing said exploration, sure there was maybe 5-10 minutes of travel time in those 120 minutes but if you point at that and say "seeee!! it's there!!! even for you!!!" I will ask you to not forget to take your medication.
I'm simply stating an obvious, observable, indisputable fact of EVE's gameplay. No opinion is involved. After you make a choice involving travel, travel is forced on you. Disagreeing with my gaming preferences and making veiled personal attacks doesn't change that undeniable truth. That's not how truth works.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Axehilt before you make a fool of yourself any further could you enlighten us on what games you have worked in the past? I am really curios if it includes The War Z or any of the Thor games.
I'm simply stating an obvious, observable, indisputable fact of EVE's gameplay. No opinion is involved. After you make a choice involving travel, travel is forced on you. Disagreeing with my gaming preferences and making veiled personal attacks doesn't change that undeniable truth. That's not how truth works.
Do you also feel that, after choosing to swing at a mob, combat is forced on you?
You keep saying you're right because what you say is "fact" and "truth" but any attempt to get discussion beyond that results in either reiteration of that same assertion or things like your odd rock band post. Work with us, man.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Bladestrom Your problem is that you crudely classify travelling as a time when there is no gameplay, you are absolutely wrong, there is gameplay. Its like saying when you run between nodes when you are gathering in wow you are only doing something at the point where you actually click on a node, when you are running you at doing nothing.
Asside from this, you have been told people enjoy travelling, there is no desire in the eve game works for instant travel- you are wrong.
The act of traveling has no gameplay, in EVE or in WOW. It's just that in EVE the travel times are much greater than WOW (because WOW understands that excessive periods of non-gameplay aren't fun.)
As I stated before, I wouldn't go into a Black Metal forum to point out a simple fact that a Rock song is likely to be more popular than a screaching metal song -- but if the "I hate Black Metal" thread was created in a General Music Forum, and later moved to the Black Metal forum, then I'm not about to back off on factual statements I've made like "Fewer people enjoy screaming lyrics in their music than sung lyrics."
So there's no desire in EVE for instant travel, because the players playing EVE are fine with non-instant travel. But that's not the point. The points are that objectively travel is forced upon players, objectively fewer players want a game where non-gameplay is forced upon them than where non-gameplay is optional, and that subjectively I prefer gameplay-focused games.
I've stated several objective facts, and also my subjective opinion. It'd be nice for the forum to respond with, "Hmm, you're right. That's undeniably, objectively the way EVE is implemented, and I like it. And you're entitled to subjectively dislike it because that's your opinion."
That would be reasonable discussion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Do you also feel that, after choosing to swing at a mob, combat is forced on you?
You keep saying you're right because what you say is "fact" and "truth" but any attempt to get discussion beyond that results in either reiteration of that same assertion or things like your odd rock band post. Work with us, man.
Yes, a period of combat is forced on you after you initiate combat.
And this would be a rather awful game design if paired with combat that was completely automated (no decisions; no gameplay) and lasted 5 minutes per fight; and you could technically AFK it, except you're randomly penalized for actually AFKing during a fight (and in fact the fight will last 7 minutes if you don't periodically hit a couple buttons to gate-jump...er, I mean attack...sooner.)
That seems pretty understandable how such a design might severely diminish the size of the interested playerbase, right? (Compared with a game where combat involves significant, deep decision-making.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Dihoru Axehilt before you make a fool of yourself any further could you enlighten us on what games you have worked in the past? I am really curios if it includes The War Z or any of the Thor games.
Perfect Dark, Mechwarrior 4 (+expansion), AOE2: Conquerors, and Rise of Nations (+expansion) are some of the earlier games I worked on.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You say objective, it's not it's subjective. When you travel in eve, it's a graphical effect while you do other stuff - don't you realise that? In eve while I travel I do market stuff and plan my route using the map to look for.
In wow when you travel you can do literally nothing Worse when you trade you have to stand and do nothing while you trade.
So what do you prefer : stand and do nothing while u trade or trade while you travel?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol that's not what your doing at all axe, you running into a rock concert and telling all the people that are having a great time that you are a designer and they are not having a good time. Bizzare eh.
I think we have enough discussion by sticking to things I've actually said.
(Good luck finding a quote where I said or implied EVE players aren't having fun.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Stand and do nothing while you trade (aka wow ah) compared to trade while you travel, surely you can finally see based on this simple comparison that it's not as simple as travel = bad.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It seems obvious you are at best equating your opinion with fact and at worse just a poor excuse of a troll. In EVE your choice dictates your degree of enjoyment and the more unrealistic your choices are vs your own capabilities the more you will suffer for it. It does not force downtime on you at all, it forces you to make choices and to, shockingly for your adrenaline fuelled mind that can't seem to go one minute without planting a sword into something, crafting a sword of a thousand truths to then plant it into something or sniffing achievement crank off the nearest doey elven breasts you can find, live with them. It is clear you cannot even comprehend the game let alone fathom what it offers and I truly pity the industry if you are a game developer of any sort.
Also fun fact for you: Today while jumping from system to system doing some exploration I made over 200 mil isk in under 2 hours while my heart was pounding trying to get both the dps down and the neuts off me. It was my choice to explore and learn how to best maximize time spent doing said exploration, sure there was maybe 5-10 minutes of travel time in those 120 minutes but if you point at that and say "seeee!! it's there!!! even for you!!!" I will ask you to not forget to take your medication.
I'm simply stating an obvious, observable, indisputable fact of EVE's gameplay. No opinion is involved. After you make a choice involving travel, travel is forced on you. Disagreeing with my gaming preferences and making veiled personal attacks doesn't change that undeniable truth. That's not how truth works.
You're not "simply stating" anything.
You're passing a subjective judgement on a feature of the game. A feature that you quite obviously don't understand.
Travel time gives a world it's size.
If there was instant travel to everywhere in EVE, it would be the end of regional markets and the the whole dynamic of relative price differences. Everyone would just instantly port to Jita every time they wanted to buy anything.
Because of travel time, the regions in EVE are meaningful entities, not just different colours on a map.
Thousands of EVE players can enjoy and profit from the economy, because other players don't want to spend the travel time to fly 10 systems over so that they can buy ammo at 10 ISK per unit cheaper.
Defending territory would be a nightmare, because every alliance in the game could reach you instantly at any given moment. It would mean that one alliance potentially COULD control all of 0.0 space, because they could instantly move their blobs anywhere on the map.
Travel time time means that your scouts can warn miners and ratters when there's a hostile incursion in your territory. it gives your hulk pilots a chance to warp to safety if they are properly aligned when they hear the warning.
You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game
was some kind of universal law.
Newsflash: it's not! Different people have different ideas of what is fun, rewarding and interesting. The fact that you got bored of EVE does not mean the game lacks depth or complex, interesting gameplay, just that the game isn't for you - which also means you haven't really experienced all its aspects and thus are not qualified to judge it from an objective viewpoint.
I never made it far into WoW, but I wouldn't dream of coming to the WoW forums claiming that high-end raiding is shallow and requires no skill, just because I personally got bored of the fedex runs and "kill 10 X" questing at level 20.
Let's get things straight.
The non-gameplay I'm describing is objective. You can objectively say that EVE involves more travel time as a percentage of overall gameplay. You can objectively say that 95-99% of the time, the act of traveling involves no decisions (which is non-gameplay.)
Subjectivity only appears when I describe the overall game is not being fun because the type of gameplay lengthy travel buys EVE isn't worth the cost. But the act of traveling lacking meaningful decisions is objective truth.
I've never said EVE lacks depth, so please let's avoid putting lies in others' mouths. I've simply pointed out that the way it achieves depth is sloppy (spamming complexity at the game design,) and that other games achieve similar (or possibly more) depth without the tedious sections of non-gameplay EVE forces on players.
I didn't "come to the EVE forums". The thread was moved. The thread was on-topic where it was created (general gaming.) I disagree with the mods' decision to move any on-topic thread, but that doesn't really matter. I view my posts and their responses through my profile, so the thread was probably here quite a while before I even noticed it wasn't in general gaming anymore.
Travel through null or low sec. If your traveling "involves no decisions" then you will be shipless very quickly. There are a lot of tactics involved in traveling. In hisec, I somewhat agree, but elsewhere in Eve, traveling involves a lot of decisions.
Here's a concrete user story: as a player I want to trade and do a quest/mission.
In wow, you travel to the ah, while you travel you can do nothing. When you get to ah you can do nothing while you trade. You then travel to the quest, while you travel you can do nothing.
Now wvw, you travel to the mission and trade on the way, as well as do other stuff.
Eve is much more interesting.
End of arguement, these are facts, neither objective or subjective.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I dont hate EVE ,but I dont like it neither,,did try it only once for qbout 2 houres did not get anywere did not understand nothing gave it up, but still I have no reason to hate it.I'm glad that lot of players find it to be the best game ever,lucky people found a home:- )
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol ok Rock bands was allways a bit of a wild analogy here, let's scratch it
Is it really that confusing?
Rock music is subjectively popular with an objectively larger audience than Death Metal. If a person who likes Rock music describes an objective fact of Death Metal (it involves screeching lyrics) and mentions their subjective opinion of it (I hate it) then that's a perfectly reasonable thing to post.
Same exact situation as EVE. Nobody's going to convince someone not to like EVE or Death Metal, but we can point out the objective facts of the game and describe our subjective reason for disliking it.
Completely justified and reasonable.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Bladestrom Stand and do nothing while you trade (aka wow ah) compared to trade while you travel, surely you can finally see based on this simple comparison that it's not as simple as travel = bad.
Your example involves decision-making (gameplay), a decision (gameplay), and an instant result.
Between that gameplay and the next, there is no gap. And any gap of non-gameplay which does exist isn't ideal except in very small spurts (like a movie using establishing shots to indicate travel happening; they don't show 2 hours of real-time travel, they should 5-15 seconds of establishing shots to enter the next 2-10 minute scene.)
If you pointed out that a player leaving the AH to quest will have travel time in WOW, I would agree that in most cases that's not as fun as GW2's instant waypoint system where you avoid repeat travel.
It's a matter of poorly justified timesinks. I find just as much fun and depth in games without these arbitrary non-gameplay timesinks than games with them.
EVE's timesinks would actually be better if they were genuinely AFKable. I've enjoyed several online strategy games where you log in, make some decisions, then wait several hours for those decisions to happen. But you're not forced to sit around with the app open for those things to happen, you can close it down and do something else. Unfortunately EVE is in this bad zone where it feels like you should be able to AFK this empty non-gameplay, but it's actually a very bad idea to do so because 0.5% of the time it matters that you're not AFK.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Yup, things usually go well until the phrase "...and most other players..." slips out
It's a dead giveaway, because it's shorhand for: "I'm right and you're wrong, because most people agree with ME, not with you".
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Let's get things straight.
The non-gameplay I'm describing is objective. You can objectively say that EVE involves more travel time as a percentage of overall gameplay. You can objectively say that 95-99% of the time, the act of traveling involves no decisions (which is non-gameplay.)
Subjectivity only appears when I describe the overall game is not being fun because the type of gameplay lengthy travel buys EVE isn't worth the cost. But the act of traveling lacking meaningful decisions is objective truth.
I've never said EVE lacks depth, so please let's avoid putting lies in others' mouths. I've simply pointed out that the way it achieves depth is sloppy (spamming complexity at the game design,) and that other games achieve similar (or possibly more) depth without the tedious sections of non-gameplay EVE forces on players.
I didn't "come to the EVE forums". The thread was moved. The thread was on-topic where it was created (general gaming.) I disagree with the mods' decision to move any on-topic thread, but that doesn't really matter. I view my posts and their responses through my profile, so the thread was probably here quite a while before I even noticed it wasn't in general gaming anymore.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
More people like Rock than Black Metal, but I'm not going to go into a Black Metal forum and ask, "Hey guys, what do you think of music without the screaming?" and expect to have an accurate discussion of how people generally feel about screaming in their music.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Asside from this, you have been told people enjoy travelling, there is no desire in the eve game works for instant travel- you are wrong.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm simply stating an obvious, observable, indisputable fact of EVE's gameplay. No opinion is involved. After you make a choice involving travel, travel is forced on you. Disagreeing with my gaming preferences and making veiled personal attacks doesn't change that undeniable truth. That's not how truth works.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Do you also feel that, after choosing to swing at a mob, combat is forced on you?
You keep saying you're right because what you say is "fact" and "truth" but any attempt to get discussion beyond that results in either reiteration of that same assertion or things like your odd rock band post. Work with us, man.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The act of traveling has no gameplay, in EVE or in WOW. It's just that in EVE the travel times are much greater than WOW (because WOW understands that excessive periods of non-gameplay aren't fun.)
As I stated before, I wouldn't go into a Black Metal forum to point out a simple fact that a Rock song is likely to be more popular than a screaching metal song -- but if the "I hate Black Metal" thread was created in a General Music Forum, and later moved to the Black Metal forum, then I'm not about to back off on factual statements I've made like "Fewer people enjoy screaming lyrics in their music than sung lyrics."
So there's no desire in EVE for instant travel, because the players playing EVE are fine with non-instant travel. But that's not the point. The points are that objectively travel is forced upon players, objectively fewer players want a game where non-gameplay is forced upon them than where non-gameplay is optional, and that subjectively I prefer gameplay-focused games.
I've stated several objective facts, and also my subjective opinion. It'd be nice for the forum to respond with, "Hmm, you're right. That's undeniably, objectively the way EVE is implemented, and I like it. And you're entitled to subjectively dislike it because that's your opinion."
That would be reasonable discussion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
came here to see a GOOD trollpost this time.
Again, amateur content. 2/10 for the effort.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Yes, a period of combat is forced on you after you initiate combat.
And this would be a rather awful game design if paired with combat that was completely automated (no decisions; no gameplay) and lasted 5 minutes per fight; and you could technically AFK it, except you're randomly penalized for actually AFKing during a fight (and in fact the fight will last 7 minutes if you don't periodically hit a couple buttons to gate-jump...er, I mean attack...sooner.)
That seems pretty understandable how such a design might severely diminish the size of the interested playerbase, right? (Compared with a game where combat involves significant, deep decision-making.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Perfect Dark, Mechwarrior 4 (+expansion), AOE2: Conquerors, and Rise of Nations (+expansion) are some of the earlier games I worked on.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In wow when you travel you can do literally nothing Worse when you trade you have to stand and do nothing while you trade.
So what do you prefer : stand and do nothing while u trade or trade while you travel?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I think we have enough discussion by sticking to things I've actually said.
(Good luck finding a quote where I said or implied EVE players aren't having fun.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You're not "simply stating" anything.
You're passing a subjective judgement on a feature of the game. A feature that you quite obviously don't understand.
Travel time gives a world it's size.
If there was instant travel to everywhere in EVE, it would be the end of regional markets and the the whole dynamic of relative price differences. Everyone would just instantly port to Jita every time they wanted to buy anything.
Because of travel time, the regions in EVE are meaningful entities, not just different colours on a map.
Thousands of EVE players can enjoy and profit from the economy, because other players don't want to spend the travel time to fly 10 systems over so that they can buy ammo at 10 ISK per unit cheaper.
Defending territory would be a nightmare, because every alliance in the game could reach you instantly at any given moment. It would mean that one alliance potentially COULD control all of 0.0 space, because they could instantly move their blobs anywhere on the map.
Travel time time means that your scouts can warn miners and ratters when there's a hostile incursion in your territory. it gives your hulk pilots a chance to warp to safety if they are properly aligned when they hear the warning.
Travel through null or low sec. If your traveling "involves no decisions" then you will be shipless very quickly. There are a lot of tactics involved in traveling. In hisec, I somewhat agree, but elsewhere in Eve, traveling involves a lot of decisions.
In wow, you travel to the ah, while you travel you can do nothing. When you get to ah you can do nothing while you trade. You then travel to the quest, while you travel you can do nothing.
Now wvw, you travel to the mission and trade on the way, as well as do other stuff.
Eve is much more interesting.
End of arguement, these are facts, neither objective or subjective.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Is it really that confusing?
Rock music is subjectively popular with an objectively larger audience than Death Metal. If a person who likes Rock music describes an objective fact of Death Metal (it involves screeching lyrics) and mentions their subjective opinion of it (I hate it) then that's a perfectly reasonable thing to post.
Same exact situation as EVE. Nobody's going to convince someone not to like EVE or Death Metal, but we can point out the objective facts of the game and describe our subjective reason for disliking it.
Completely justified and reasonable.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your example involves decision-making (gameplay), a decision (gameplay), and an instant result.
Between that gameplay and the next, there is no gap. And any gap of non-gameplay which does exist isn't ideal except in very small spurts (like a movie using establishing shots to indicate travel happening; they don't show 2 hours of real-time travel, they should 5-15 seconds of establishing shots to enter the next 2-10 minute scene.)
If you pointed out that a player leaving the AH to quest will have travel time in WOW, I would agree that in most cases that's not as fun as GW2's instant waypoint system where you avoid repeat travel.
It's a matter of poorly justified timesinks. I find just as much fun and depth in games without these arbitrary non-gameplay timesinks than games with them.
EVE's timesinks would actually be better if they were genuinely AFKable. I've enjoyed several online strategy games where you log in, make some decisions, then wait several hours for those decisions to happen. But you're not forced to sit around with the app open for those things to happen, you can close it down and do something else. Unfortunately EVE is in this bad zone where it feels like you should be able to AFK this empty non-gameplay, but it's actually a very bad idea to do so because 0.5% of the time it matters that you're not AFK.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver