LOL most of these pc guys apparantly haven't played a console in a very very long time. Or they have no idea what the hell their talking about.
Read up on consoles guys before you sound like just a pc only fan.
If you,ve spent all of your money upgrading your computer for your latest pc game, and cant afford a console also, then just say so. But theres no need to throw around statements that would have worked when the ps1 came out, and look just foolish now.
Soon the consoles will replace the DVR/DVP/Blu-Ray/cablebox/roku...all of that will be 1 device. The console. It will most likely fill the role of audio center as well.
I think that is what M$ is aiming for. Better or worse, that is where I see it going.
Perhaps that is true for simple people, but the console will never replace the DVR/DVD/Blu-ray for me. I guess I am more advanced as I like to have separate components. For example, consoles will never be able to play every video format like my popcorn hour does so it wouldnt replace that.
I doubt console audio would replace my audio reciever that can context switch between multiple sources as well as change the sound field based on what I'm watching.
The problem with (any) all-in-one is the device becomes a jack of all trades but master of none.
The ability to do voice on a console kind of removes most of the issues that the games had in the past (no keyboard). Technically you could even have it be powerful enough to be given voice choices at menus and such so that if you conversed with an NPC you wouldn't need to hit the controller.
High Definition removed the other issue. You can read text clearly on a TV as well. Essentially the convergence has occurred and the main thing that PCs have over consoles is that they have more power to them.
The problem with consoles is by their design they have to simplify the UI and hotkeys. I have 20 keys right off the top for abilities management that cannot be done on the console. Yes, today's MMOs are reducing the number of abilities to fit on one bar but thats a direction I don't agree with and in the games I have played that leverage this I dont stay as long.
The fact that MMOs *can* be played on consoles (as well as PCs) doesn't change the fact that it might not be the best option for everyone.
To me this is a split in MMORPGs of people who like the older, slower way of playing that typically introduces more complexity (more detail around the things you can do) versus the newer, faster way of playing that for all intensive purposes turns MMOs into FPS with RPG tropes. FPS being a generalization to represent games that have active aiming and dodging but allow you to customize your avatar.
My personal complaint with the latter is I cant fully enjoy an MMO (and what it has to offer) if I constantly have to be running around dodging. RPGs started out as slow methodical play as option to the twitch based games that were out. I just happen to prefer to keep those gameplay styles separate instead of trying to merge. But I obviously dont represent the majority of the gaming population either.
First - the "facts" are wrong. FFXIV is releasing on the PS3 as well as PC on Aug 27th - it is releasing on PS4 in 2014 as well. A columnist writing for an MMO site should get their facts together before being published.
Second - both PS3 and PS4 and probably 360 and XB1 support USB keyboards, and both PS3 and XB360 have "texting pad" peripherals to enable easy text-based chat. Everyone over the age of 5 and under the age of 60 should be pretty damn good at thumb typing these days.
Third - if the comments in this forum, or the millions of dumb ass comments on internet boards across the 'verse and in the general chat of your favorite PC MMO are any indication, the ratio of immature dumb asses to "mature" players is the same on console as it is on PC.
About 10,000,000 to 1.
Fourth - the idea that having a dozen full hotbars = complexity has been dispelled a million and a half times over, so control scheme is about as valid of an argument as the grand "maturity" of the PC community.
Fifth - many, many MMOs are coming to the next gen consoles - you can either continue to bitch and moan like children, or accept the fact that gaming is changing. The kids will never get off your lawn, and no one cares that you walked uphill through the snow both ways.
This is all coming from a 25+ year PC AND console gaming veteran, and 13+ year MMO veteran who cut my virtual avatar teeth dodging PK's outside Brittania.
I agree with the majority of your points BadSpock. Most of the arguments against consoles are invalid. But I definitely still believe PC give a more complex experience (or perhaps longer living one) than consoles. I come from the console side of the house since Telstar in 1977. Only starting MMOs in 2010. The main reason for the change was that I was looking for a more complex (or perhaps sophisticated? still determining this) experience.
It not just about control but about feel. I feel more comfortable using my keyboard when playing MMORPGs than I do a controller. Case in point, Skyrim (which I know is not a MMORPG but fits my argument). I have Skyrim for the Xbox360 and didnt like it. I put it on the PC and it was a different experience. Same game, same content but I enjoyed the experience better on PC. I know I am not the only here who feels that way.
I am also to the extreme that I will only play games I like on console on PC due to the comfortability and control scheme. In summary the Keyboard/Mouse layout is functionally more flexible than an analog controller with a limited button set.
I agree complaining about MMOs being on consoles is moot. Simply dont play it on consoles and move on.
First - the "facts" are wrong. FFXIV is releasing on the PS3 as well as PC on Aug 27th - it is releasing on PS4 in 2014 as well. A columnist writing for an MMO site should get their facts together before being published.
Second - both PS3 and PS4 and probably 360 and XB1 support USB keyboards, and both PS3 and XB360 have "texting pad" peripherals to enable easy text-based chat. Everyone over the age of 5 and under the age of 60 should be pretty damn good at thumb typing these days.
Third - if the comments in this forum, or the millions of dumb ass comments on internet boards across the 'verse and in the general chat of your favorite PC MMO are any indication, the ratio of immature dumb asses to "mature" players is the same on console as it is on PC.
About 10,000,000 to 1.
Fourth - the idea that having a dozen full hotbars = complexity has been dispelled a million and a half times over, so control scheme is about as valid of an argument as the grand "maturity" of the PC community.
Fifth - many, many MMOs are coming to the next gen consoles - you can either continue to bitch and moan like children, or accept the fact that gaming is changing. The kids will never get off your lawn, and no one cares that you walked uphill through the snow both ways.
This is all coming from a 25+ year PC AND console gaming veteran, and 13+ year MMO veteran who cut my virtual avatar teeth dodging PK's outside Brittania.
Have to disagree. People who buy consoles do not buy keyboards or mice to any extent. Console people usually use voice, which is fine, but it really breaks any rpg elements of the game.
If you are in any kind of a pvp event and you are playing on a console with a controller and I am on a PC with mouse/keyboard, I will own you all the time. If you notice most game servers do not mix the console people with the PC people for that reason.
Yes because of people like you and your ignorant elitism.
I dont think he went as far as being ingorant and elitist as much as he was pointing out the fact that you have better control with a keyboard and mouse than with a controller. This doesnt mean Keyboard players are automatically better than console players but they definitely have an advantage.
Originally posted by BadSpockWhat a load of crap.First - the "facts" are wrong. FFXIV is releasing on the PS3 as well as PC on Aug 27th - it is releasing on PS4 in 2014 as well. A columnist writing for an MMO site should get their facts together before being published.Second - both PS3 and PS4 and probably 360 and XB1 support USB keyboards, and both PS3 and XB360 have "texting pad" peripherals to enable easy text-based chat. Everyone over the age of 5 and under the age of 60 should be pretty damn good at thumb typing these days.Third - if the comments in this forum, or the millions of dumb ass comments on internet boards across the 'verse and in the general chat of your favorite PC MMO are any indication, the ratio of immature dumb asses to "mature" players is the same on console as it is on PC.About 10,000,000 to 1.Fourth - the idea that having a dozen full hotbars = complexity has been dispelled a million and a half times over, so control scheme is about as valid of an argument as the grand "maturity" of the PC community.Fifth - many, many MMOs are coming to the next gen consoles - you can either continue to bitch and moan like children, or accept the fact that gaming is changing. The kids will never get off your lawn, and no one cares that you walked uphill through the snow both ways.This is all coming from a 25+ year PC AND console gaming veteran, and 13+ year MMO veteran who cut my virtual avatar teeth dodging PK's outside Brittania.
Have to disagree. People who buy consoles do not buy keyboards or mice to any extent. Console people usually use voice, which is fine, but it really breaks any rpg elements of the game. If you are in any kind of a pvp event and you are playing on a console with a controller and I am on a PC with mouse/keyboard, I will own you all the time. If you notice most game servers do not mix the console people with the PC people for that reason.
Lets play Virtua Fighter 5. I'll use my controller and you use a kb/mouse /gg
LoL EXACTLY!.. I just don't see why the PC crazies don't get this part. Yea, FPS's we'll give you that one; the whole thing with mouse DPI compared to that of the controllers thumbstick (currently) is advantage mouse / kb.
But when it comes down to games like fighters and several other genre's consoles rule over PC easily. PC gaming is not an absolute and just like Console gamers who purchase kb/mouse. PC gamers purchase gamepads to play certain games with. Would that be consider a console thing? Controller's..
But that's why there are seperate markets each doing their own thing for the longest. It's really now and beyond that are showing how these two can be interchangleable at one point, but when that arrives. Neither will truly be what they are now anyways.
I as a console gamer coming up always understood this about them (consoles), that they are always moving forward and evolving in their space. PC gaming has also seen an evolution through better GFX cards, RAM, Proccessors, and simple as basic design of them. Which of course is the bread and butter for consoles. You really have to be honest and say that more than chance that consoles have also had some influences on PC's. Of course those will not be as direct, but still lessons learned in console development could be applied to PC's.
That why I disagree with the premise that even THIS next-generation of consoles marks some type of end to the whole console market. As outlandish as Microsofts push was for DRM and always online, there are things that are naturally going to come in the comming years as these devices mature and new ideas in design and technollogy become available.
But whatever.. as lame as this statement can be,,,
"Haters gonna hate..."
I think a lot of pc purists are console haters because they simply missed the opportunity to evolve with the hand coordination of a controller. My dad sticks to his pc and fps because he could never get the hang of pushing multiple buttons at the same time, in a particular order, and in a specific time frame.
The other reason i think pc purists are butt hurt all the time is that they are sitting on superior hardware but simple do not have the sheer amount of AAA quality exclusives that consoles enjoy.
Lets stay on topic of MMOs being on consoles. This has nothing to do with Fighters and other games which are geared/better for consoles than PC.
No one should be a purist anything and should be open to new options, but still have a preference. I started console and now moved to PC and don't see myself going back. As long as they make games for both PC and console I'll be happy. Im still pissed Take two never made Red Dead Redemption for PC.
If you notice most game servers do not mix the console people with the PC people for that reason.
actually most servers did not mix console and pc in the past due to tech limits in both the consoles AND computers, not to mention the compatibility issues with server code.
"Consoles will always have the lazy people on their side. While I cherish my PC, I bemoan the amount of maintenance it requires, and the roulette I play whenever I want it to handle a new game. Will this piece of hardware work? Will I have to wait for a patch? Will I have to mess around with a .TXT file? All of these are negated with a console."
Mr Tingle did continue using a PC after the early 00's? These days the PC has far fewer such issues, while the advent of going online has caused the same issues to occur in consoles.
But then I never play a game of any kind until a month+ after launch. I usually play solo games about three months after launch and during setup they can have patches from 0.5Gig up to about the size of the game! The internet is to blame for poor launch quality control, not the PC.
Every year, they become more "action oriented" and more "casual friendly". Nowadays, anyone can reach level-cap in an MMORPG with just a week or two of solo play. And that's how the vast majority of gamers play MMORPG's.
This is exactly the MAIN problem with all failing MMORPG's today.... They make the games way to easy which makes people able to reach max level within a few weeks. This results in tons of players leaving the game while complaining there is no endgame etc etc. Ofc course there is no endgame since there are basically no developer (except Blizzard possibly) that have the resources to develop new content in such time that it constantly will keep the players busy. So this utterly stupid trend of whining and complaining as soon the content actually prove to be a really tough one to master has resulted in way to shallow games.
My hopes lies with EQ Next actually that they indeed bring the game to somewhat near of the original Everquest game, where it actually took very long time between the leveling so the content was an excellent playground until the next expansion came. I recall that I was around lvl 38 or so when they released the first expansion (Ruins of Kunark if I recall correctly). So I still had 12 lvls to go until I reached the max lvl that were before the expansion.
Of course there need to be some adjustments to make people accept this today. I personally believe that people have no problems whatsoever that it takes time to reach a new lvl AS long you give them some carrots during the way. For example have some kind of AA points that you gain as you reach certain progress of one lvl..ie every 20% you get 1-3 points to spend which can either give you a passive increase to an existing skill, give you a completely new skill or some other things of interest. This in itself should be like a tree or something that gives you another possibility to customize your character even more so even if you are the same "class" as another character your personlization could be so different that you are like two completely different classes even though both share the same core skills (ie a healer has the core heal skills).
I really don't care if they want to release a MMO to the consoles as long they do the following:
# Keep the console versions and PC versions located on different servers. Since I see no benefit for the PC users to have tons of users that are not really using a keyboard to communicate. Yes, even if you have voice communication there are tons of occations where the ingame chat is much more useful then tons of people talking in the voice com at the same time.
# Understand that the PC users are completely different then the console users. The PC users certainly don't need some damn GUI and inventory that is designed for a dumbed down console. The PC users actually have 104 keys on the keyboard and on my case 17 buttons on my mouse so I want to have many options of what skills to use and not depending on the circumstances. Console games are certainly not developed with that in mind which gives a "dumbed down" version of the game.
So basically a PC release should be completely separated from the console release and the development team of these version must keep this in mind.
Final words, bring back the challenges in MMORPG's and indeed make it take time to reach max lvl when you release the game (1 year to achieve max lvl does make sense indeed). Since it's not how fast I get to max lvl that makes a game good it's how much fun I have during the time I play the game. So if it takes one year to reach max lvl and I have fun during that time then I am all up for it. It would also solve one of the most disappointing things in MMO's today... the crafting/gear problem where you lvl so fast so it actually isn't worth the time or effort in trying to get a very nice item crafted/found since you will keep it for about an hour or so at the most. I actually remember that I after alot of haggling during my early days in EQ as a mage was able to buy a nice staff that I actually used for like 8-10 lvls in that game if was several weeks. This made it really useful to get crafted items and also taking some time to find a named mob that had a decent drop worth the effort.
It is indisputable that today, there are many MMORPGs available for PC and few for consoles. If you want to know whether it will be that way in the future, it helps to understand why it is that way today. Neither the article nor any of the posts so far in reply to it have explained this.
One is differing control schemes. A lot has been said about this in this thread, but people miss the point. It's not that console controls are better or worse than PC controls. You can use a gamepad for PC or a keyboard and mouse for consoles. But if you release a game for PC, you can assume that everyone has a keyboard and mouse. For a console, everyone could get a keyboard and mouse, but not everyone already has one available for use with the console.
Second is hardware performance capabilities, which has also been touched on. The Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 each have a plenty powerful enough video card, though you'll have to reduce some graphical settings for them as compared to what you can do on a PC. The real killer is memory capacity, as they each have 512 MB of system and video memory added together. In the PS3's case, this is 256 MB of system memory and 256 MB of video memory. Even MMORPGs that we think of as running on anything won't necessarily run well on 256 MB of system memory. For example, WoW won't--and didn't in 2005, either, so it's not just later updates that are the problem.
Third is the problem of the revenue model, which hasn't been mentioned in this thread. On a PC, hardware vendors make their money when you buy the hardware. After that, you can do whatever you want with the computer--and in particular, you can run whatever software you want. That's between you and the software vendor. With consoles, Microsoft and Sony lose money on the development of the console, then lose money on every console they sell, and try to make it up by taking a cut of the sales of every console game sold.
For single-player games, the anti-piracy measures of consoles are worth more than the fraction of revenue taken by Microsoft and Sony. But for MMORPGs, that everyone has to connect to your servers in order to play the game is all of the anti-piracy measures that you could possibly want. If you release a game for both PC and consoles, then some of your console revenue is revenue that you would have gotten for PC if the game were PC-only. And you'd have gotten to keep it all for PC, rather than having to pay perhaps 30% or so to Microsoft or Sony for consoles. So even if you get more players by having a game available for both consoles and PC, it's not clear that you get more revenue that you can keep.
Furthermore, if Microsoft or Sony gets a cut of your revenue, they can veto your business model. And if you try to go "free to play" historically they have vetoed that. On PCs, "free to play" models bring in far less revenue per player than subscription models. On PC, if you get enough additional players, you may well make more revenue in total, which is why we've seen movement toward "free to play". But console vendors lose money if they sell consoles to people who will only ever play "free to play" games and not pay for them, so they tend to frown on "free to play" models.
Additionally, you can't necessarily go "free to play" for PC and subscription for consoles, as that will lead some whales to go to consoles where they can get everything for the price of a subscription, while some people who would have subscribed to a subscription-only game go to PC and play for free.
Fourth is the problem of updates. On a PC, update methods and content are between the software developer and the player. You could get Microsoft or anti-virus software to interfere if you tried to do sufficiently outlandish stuff, but for anything useful to gaming, you can do whatever you want. Consoles tend to make it much harder to update the game. As you are aware, MMORPGs often need lots of updates.
The PlayStation 4 and Xbox One both fix the second problem. In particular, they have 8 GB of memory shared between video memory and system memory. It's easy to use little video memory just by using lower resolution textures, so the bulk of that will be available if needed for system memory. (And if not needed for system memory, it will be used for some very high resolution textures.) That should be plenty of system memory for many years to come.
But the other problems will all remain with the next generation of consoles. There's no real movement on the control issue, but that was never the main problem.
The last two problems would be ameliorated somewhat if Sony and Microsoft made money from the sale of consoles rather than losing money and hoping to make it up in game sales. Both are using off-the-shelf CPU and GPU architectures from AMD, so there won't be massive development costs like Sony had with the PS3. Sony is reportedly going to roughly break even on per-unit sales of the PS4. With Microsoft charging $100 more than Sony for inferior hardware, Microsoft might well make money up front on each Xbox One sold. If they can maintain the higher price, that is; without further concessions, Xbox One sales are likely to be dismal, and that could force price cuts.
And in particular, the last two problems are more onerous for third party software rather than first party. Sony's own MMORPGs from now on will likely come to PS4, simply because paying money to the console vendor would mean Sony paying money to itself. One division of Sony shouldn't be terribly inclined to harass another over revenue model disputes. This has already been announced for EverQuest Next and Planetside 2, but I'd expect to see most or all future SOE games do the same.
"On a PC, hardware vendors make their money when you buy the hardware. After that, you can do whatever you want with the computer--and in particular, you can run whatever software you want. That's between you and the software vendor. With consoles, Microsoft and Sony lose money on the development of the console, then lose money on every console they sell, and try to make it up by taking a cut of the sales of every console game sold."
If want games being made for their gaming potential, rather than the potential of the platform they run on, it can only be the PC.
Anyone forgotten Phantasy Star Online? For both console and PC? Monster Hunter series?
MMO's on a console will happen and that pre-change is happening now. About time the consoles get some love with MMO's instead of being exclusively pc. Consoles always had the options of using a keyboard for chat and mouse. For mmo's was few and in-between except for a few titles.
As far as mature is concerned there is no real difference. In actuality there are more M-rated games on the consoles then there are M-rated games on MMO's. Majority of MMO's released here have been teenie ones or subsized into teenie ones with even M-titles being far and in-between. There really are no 'true' mature mmo games yet, just standard blood n guts or tease ones. Much in part political correctness and soccer-mommy syndrome, gaming is still childish despite other medias elsewise.
There will be MMO's on the console whether the primary pc users like it or not. With the technological changes the companies are looking forward to expanding their horizons and main-streaming the games. Which includes those 'browser' games and 'phone-app' games.
Known as profit and quotas and expanding those quotas, even if it means dishing out clone titles as long as there are willing wallets to buy it. The MMO genre needs a breath of fresh air.
I've got nothing philosophicaly against consoles....I play some single-player games on them now. Certainly there are add-ons (such as keyboards) that can help increase the range of controls available to them. However, I wouldn't get overly excited about the "less bugs" aspect. Most modern OS's have a Hardware Abstraction Layer that is supposed to cut down on the individual applications need to worry about fiddling with the hardware...and in alot of cases does do that.
The more uniform HW in consoles will cut down on the number of bugs caused due to driver issues. However there are still plenty of bugs caused by other issues....such as the user attempting to do something unexpected within the application....or client application/data curroption or even corrupted data on the server.....the console won't do anything to help aleviate such bugs and on the contrary may make it much more difficult for the user to resolve since they limit how the user can interact with the system.
So consoles are most definately not a silver bullet in terms of game stability or bug squashing.
Well, guys here's the thing. The Xbox One and PS4 pre-release sales are very strong. At launch the hardware specs of the consoles will be a revelation to games. I think it likely that for the next years post-launch the next generation consoles will be the primary platforms around which games are developed, and the PC version will be more-or-less a port from them. That makes a lot of sense to game developers since you maximise your sales, but it means that PC gamers won't be the driving force driving game development.
Next point. For some games like MMOs you may simply want to use a wireless keyboard and mouse. There is no reason a games developer can't give you mouse and keyboard support for PS4 or Xbox One.
Finally, I think most major coming MMOs will have Xbox One and PS4 versions. It makes so much sense as it gives them much more people that might buy the game. No Surprise that Planetside 2, FF XIV, EQ Next, TESO and more will be developed for the console gamer. In the end high sales of Xbox One and PS4 will drive a new wave of gaming, and that wave will include MMOS.
I am at least glad that we have Kickstarter so there will be games available that doesn't cater to the demands of players requesting easy games, reach max lvl withing a month and ofc console UI and console support..
As I said before... create whatever mmo you want and let it support whatever you want, but they must realize that they can't simply make a slacker port from a console version into a PC version since it's useless and they will loose tons of customers doing that. They need to learn and realize that a PC isn't a gaming console and those buying a PC for gaming as a primary use are not really interested whatsoever in the consoles and their style. So keep consoles and PC's seperated and release two versions of the game and not one version ported over to the other typ of machine.
I am at least glad that we have Kickstarter so there will be games available that doesn't cater to the demands of players requesting easy games, reach max lvl withing a month and ofc console UI and console support..
As I said before... create whatever mmo you want and let it support whatever you want, but they must realize that they can't simply make a slacker port from a console version into a PC version since it's useless and they will loose tons of customers doing that. They need to learn and realize that a PC isn't a gaming console and those buying a PC for gaming as a primary use are not really interested whatsoever in the consoles and their style. So keep consoles and PC's seperated and release two versions of the game and not one version ported over to the other typ of machine.
That problem lies with games that are made for console and ported to PC. Look at FFXIV it works flawlessly with mouse and gamepad.
it is a problem with the game development not the fact that games are on both mediums. I think for the future since both PS4 and Xbox1 are using standard PC hardware development for multi platform versions will be in paralell vs serial for past multiplatform games. Control issues will no longer be a problem and Keyboard/mouse will be available for applicable games.
Until such time as consoles support KB+M or they find a better interface, consoles are a drag on PC MMO's.
I dont think we are so far away from that point though where consoles support Kb+M, and when they do, you will see alot of PC gamers convert for the simplicity. If i can spend 400 on a unit that will play my MMO with decent graphics...I dont need to spend 1500 for a gaming PC. (although, I must admit, I havent had to edit .ini files or anything like that for at least the past 5 years, other than updating a graphics driver every now and then, so not sure where the author is getting that. Only have to do that stuff with games..../procured/...from the internet.
I actually expect to see the two merge. More and more PC peeps are using TV's for their monitors, and we know that there is a market of idiot tehcno-geeks that will buy a propietary packaged PC if it is hyped enough, despite it being technically inferior. So MS and Sony have thier...home entertainment media center. Browse your pr0n, stream your movies, jam your tunes, play your games all in one nice box.
Comments
LOL most of these pc guys apparantly haven't played a console in a very very long time. Or they have no idea what the hell their talking about.
Read up on consoles guys before you sound like just a pc only fan.
If you,ve spent all of your money upgrading your computer for your latest pc game, and cant afford a console also, then just say so. But theres no need to throw around statements that would have worked when the ps1 came out, and look just foolish now.
Perhaps that is true for simple people, but the console will never replace the DVR/DVD/Blu-ray for me. I guess I am more advanced as I like to have separate components. For example, consoles will never be able to play every video format like my popcorn hour does so it wouldnt replace that.
I doubt console audio would replace my audio reciever that can context switch between multiple sources as well as change the sound field based on what I'm watching.
The problem with (any) all-in-one is the device becomes a jack of all trades but master of none.
Again, agree this might work for the majority.
The problem with consoles is by their design they have to simplify the UI and hotkeys. I have 20 keys right off the top for abilities management that cannot be done on the console. Yes, today's MMOs are reducing the number of abilities to fit on one bar but thats a direction I don't agree with and in the games I have played that leverage this I dont stay as long.
The fact that MMOs *can* be played on consoles (as well as PCs) doesn't change the fact that it might not be the best option for everyone.
To me this is a split in MMORPGs of people who like the older, slower way of playing that typically introduces more complexity (more detail around the things you can do) versus the newer, faster way of playing that for all intensive purposes turns MMOs into FPS with RPG tropes. FPS being a generalization to represent games that have active aiming and dodging but allow you to customize your avatar.
My personal complaint with the latter is I cant fully enjoy an MMO (and what it has to offer) if I constantly have to be running around dodging. RPGs started out as slow methodical play as option to the twitch based games that were out. I just happen to prefer to keep those gameplay styles separate instead of trying to merge. But I obviously dont represent the majority of the gaming population either.
I agree with the majority of your points BadSpock. Most of the arguments against consoles are invalid. But I definitely still believe PC give a more complex experience (or perhaps longer living one) than consoles. I come from the console side of the house since Telstar in 1977. Only starting MMOs in 2010. The main reason for the change was that I was looking for a more complex (or perhaps sophisticated? still determining this) experience.
It not just about control but about feel. I feel more comfortable using my keyboard when playing MMORPGs than I do a controller. Case in point, Skyrim (which I know is not a MMORPG but fits my argument). I have Skyrim for the Xbox360 and didnt like it. I put it on the PC and it was a different experience. Same game, same content but I enjoyed the experience better on PC. I know I am not the only here who feels that way.
I am also to the extreme that I will only play games I like on console on PC due to the comfortability and control scheme. In summary the Keyboard/Mouse layout is functionally more flexible than an analog controller with a limited button set.
I agree complaining about MMOs being on consoles is moot. Simply dont play it on consoles and move on.
I dont think he went as far as being ingorant and elitist as much as he was pointing out the fact that you have better control with a keyboard and mouse than with a controller. This doesnt mean Keyboard players are automatically better than console players but they definitely have an advantage.
Lets stay on topic of MMOs being on consoles. This has nothing to do with Fighters and other games which are geared/better for consoles than PC.
No one should be a purist anything and should be open to new options, but still have a preference. I started console and now moved to PC and don't see myself going back. As long as they make games for both PC and console I'll be happy. Im still pissed Take two never made Red Dead Redemption for PC.
If you notice most game servers do not mix the console people with the PC people for that reason.
actually most servers did not mix console and pc in the past due to tech limits in both the consoles AND computers, not to mention the compatibility issues with server code.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
"Consoles will always have the lazy people on their side. While I cherish my PC, I bemoan the amount of maintenance it requires, and the roulette I play whenever I want it to handle a new game. Will this piece of hardware work? Will I have to wait for a patch? Will I have to mess around with a .TXT file? All of these are negated with a console."
Mr Tingle did continue using a PC after the early 00's? These days the PC has far fewer such issues, while the advent of going online has caused the same issues to occur in consoles.
But then I never play a game of any kind until a month+ after launch. I usually play solo games about three months after launch and during setup they can have patches from 0.5Gig up to about the size of the game! The internet is to blame for poor launch quality control, not the PC.
Some like bikes, other like cars.
I have friends that swear by console, others by PC and some have both.
Is there any particular reason? .... my guess is just preference.
For me:
- Pc is in the living room, it's used more then the tele.
- While gaming, i also chat, use ventrillo, browse, listen to music, etc. PC is convenient for that.
- I hate badly ported games from consoles to PC (crap interfaces).
This is exactly the MAIN problem with all failing MMORPG's today.... They make the games way to easy which makes people able to reach max level within a few weeks. This results in tons of players leaving the game while complaining there is no endgame etc etc. Ofc course there is no endgame since there are basically no developer (except Blizzard possibly) that have the resources to develop new content in such time that it constantly will keep the players busy. So this utterly stupid trend of whining and complaining as soon the content actually prove to be a really tough one to master has resulted in way to shallow games.
My hopes lies with EQ Next actually that they indeed bring the game to somewhat near of the original Everquest game, where it actually took very long time between the leveling so the content was an excellent playground until the next expansion came. I recall that I was around lvl 38 or so when they released the first expansion (Ruins of Kunark if I recall correctly). So I still had 12 lvls to go until I reached the max lvl that were before the expansion.
Of course there need to be some adjustments to make people accept this today. I personally believe that people have no problems whatsoever that it takes time to reach a new lvl AS long you give them some carrots during the way. For example have some kind of AA points that you gain as you reach certain progress of one lvl..ie every 20% you get 1-3 points to spend which can either give you a passive increase to an existing skill, give you a completely new skill or some other things of interest. This in itself should be like a tree or something that gives you another possibility to customize your character even more so even if you are the same "class" as another character your personlization could be so different that you are like two completely different classes even though both share the same core skills (ie a healer has the core heal skills).
I really don't care if they want to release a MMO to the consoles as long they do the following:
# Keep the console versions and PC versions located on different servers. Since I see no benefit for the PC users to have tons of users that are not really using a keyboard to communicate. Yes, even if you have voice communication there are tons of occations where the ingame chat is much more useful then tons of people talking in the voice com at the same time.
# Understand that the PC users are completely different then the console users. The PC users certainly don't need some damn GUI and inventory that is designed for a dumbed down console. The PC users actually have 104 keys on the keyboard and on my case 17 buttons on my mouse so I want to have many options of what skills to use and not depending on the circumstances. Console games are certainly not developed with that in mind which gives a "dumbed down" version of the game.
So basically a PC release should be completely separated from the console release and the development team of these version must keep this in mind.
Final words, bring back the challenges in MMORPG's and indeed make it take time to reach max lvl when you release the game (1 year to achieve max lvl does make sense indeed). Since it's not how fast I get to max lvl that makes a game good it's how much fun I have during the time I play the game. So if it takes one year to reach max lvl and I have fun during that time then I am all up for it. It would also solve one of the most disappointing things in MMO's today... the crafting/gear problem where you lvl so fast so it actually isn't worth the time or effort in trying to get a very nice item crafted/found since you will keep it for about an hour or so at the most. I actually remember that I after alot of haggling during my early days in EQ as a mage was able to buy a nice staff that I actually used for like 8-10 lvls in that game if was several weeks. This made it really useful to get crafted items and also taking some time to find a named mob that had a decent drop worth the effort.
/E
It is indisputable that today, there are many MMORPGs available for PC and few for consoles. If you want to know whether it will be that way in the future, it helps to understand why it is that way today. Neither the article nor any of the posts so far in reply to it have explained this.
One is differing control schemes. A lot has been said about this in this thread, but people miss the point. It's not that console controls are better or worse than PC controls. You can use a gamepad for PC or a keyboard and mouse for consoles. But if you release a game for PC, you can assume that everyone has a keyboard and mouse. For a console, everyone could get a keyboard and mouse, but not everyone already has one available for use with the console.
Second is hardware performance capabilities, which has also been touched on. The Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 each have a plenty powerful enough video card, though you'll have to reduce some graphical settings for them as compared to what you can do on a PC. The real killer is memory capacity, as they each have 512 MB of system and video memory added together. In the PS3's case, this is 256 MB of system memory and 256 MB of video memory. Even MMORPGs that we think of as running on anything won't necessarily run well on 256 MB of system memory. For example, WoW won't--and didn't in 2005, either, so it's not just later updates that are the problem.
Third is the problem of the revenue model, which hasn't been mentioned in this thread. On a PC, hardware vendors make their money when you buy the hardware. After that, you can do whatever you want with the computer--and in particular, you can run whatever software you want. That's between you and the software vendor. With consoles, Microsoft and Sony lose money on the development of the console, then lose money on every console they sell, and try to make it up by taking a cut of the sales of every console game sold.
For single-player games, the anti-piracy measures of consoles are worth more than the fraction of revenue taken by Microsoft and Sony. But for MMORPGs, that everyone has to connect to your servers in order to play the game is all of the anti-piracy measures that you could possibly want. If you release a game for both PC and consoles, then some of your console revenue is revenue that you would have gotten for PC if the game were PC-only. And you'd have gotten to keep it all for PC, rather than having to pay perhaps 30% or so to Microsoft or Sony for consoles. So even if you get more players by having a game available for both consoles and PC, it's not clear that you get more revenue that you can keep.
Furthermore, if Microsoft or Sony gets a cut of your revenue, they can veto your business model. And if you try to go "free to play" historically they have vetoed that. On PCs, "free to play" models bring in far less revenue per player than subscription models. On PC, if you get enough additional players, you may well make more revenue in total, which is why we've seen movement toward "free to play". But console vendors lose money if they sell consoles to people who will only ever play "free to play" games and not pay for them, so they tend to frown on "free to play" models.
Additionally, you can't necessarily go "free to play" for PC and subscription for consoles, as that will lead some whales to go to consoles where they can get everything for the price of a subscription, while some people who would have subscribed to a subscription-only game go to PC and play for free.
Fourth is the problem of updates. On a PC, update methods and content are between the software developer and the player. You could get Microsoft or anti-virus software to interfere if you tried to do sufficiently outlandish stuff, but for anything useful to gaming, you can do whatever you want. Consoles tend to make it much harder to update the game. As you are aware, MMORPGs often need lots of updates.
The PlayStation 4 and Xbox One both fix the second problem. In particular, they have 8 GB of memory shared between video memory and system memory. It's easy to use little video memory just by using lower resolution textures, so the bulk of that will be available if needed for system memory. (And if not needed for system memory, it will be used for some very high resolution textures.) That should be plenty of system memory for many years to come.
But the other problems will all remain with the next generation of consoles. There's no real movement on the control issue, but that was never the main problem.
The last two problems would be ameliorated somewhat if Sony and Microsoft made money from the sale of consoles rather than losing money and hoping to make it up in game sales. Both are using off-the-shelf CPU and GPU architectures from AMD, so there won't be massive development costs like Sony had with the PS3. Sony is reportedly going to roughly break even on per-unit sales of the PS4. With Microsoft charging $100 more than Sony for inferior hardware, Microsoft might well make money up front on each Xbox One sold. If they can maintain the higher price, that is; without further concessions, Xbox One sales are likely to be dismal, and that could force price cuts.
And in particular, the last two problems are more onerous for third party software rather than first party. Sony's own MMORPGs from now on will likely come to PS4, simply because paying money to the console vendor would mean Sony paying money to itself. One division of Sony shouldn't be terribly inclined to harass another over revenue model disputes. This has already been announced for EverQuest Next and Planetside 2, but I'd expect to see most or all future SOE games do the same.
/end thread
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"On a PC, hardware vendors make their money when you buy the hardware. After that, you can do whatever you want with the computer--and in particular, you can run whatever software you want. That's between you and the software vendor. With consoles, Microsoft and Sony lose money on the development of the console, then lose money on every console they sell, and try to make it up by taking a cut of the sales of every console game sold."
If want games being made for their gaming potential, rather than the potential of the platform they run on, it can only be the PC.
Anyone forgotten Phantasy Star Online? For both console and PC? Monster Hunter series?
MMO's on a console will happen and that pre-change is happening now. About time the consoles get some love with MMO's instead of being exclusively pc. Consoles always had the options of using a keyboard for chat and mouse. For mmo's was few and in-between except for a few titles.
As far as mature is concerned there is no real difference. In actuality there are more M-rated games on the consoles then there are M-rated games on MMO's. Majority of MMO's released here have been teenie ones or subsized into teenie ones with even M-titles being far and in-between. There really are no 'true' mature mmo games yet, just standard blood n guts or tease ones. Much in part political correctness and soccer-mommy syndrome, gaming is still childish despite other medias elsewise.
There will be MMO's on the console whether the primary pc users like it or not. With the technological changes the companies are looking forward to expanding their horizons and main-streaming the games. Which includes those 'browser' games and 'phone-app' games.
Known as profit and quotas and expanding those quotas, even if it means dishing out clone titles as long as there are willing wallets to buy it. The MMO genre needs a breath of fresh air.
I've got nothing philosophicaly against consoles....I play some single-player games on them now. Certainly there are add-ons (such as keyboards) that can help increase the range of controls available to them. However, I wouldn't get overly excited about the "less bugs" aspect. Most modern OS's have a Hardware Abstraction Layer that is supposed to cut down on the individual applications need to worry about fiddling with the hardware...and in alot of cases does do that.
The more uniform HW in consoles will cut down on the number of bugs caused due to driver issues. However there are still plenty of bugs caused by other issues....such as the user attempting to do something unexpected within the application....or client application/data curroption or even corrupted data on the server.....the console won't do anything to help aleviate such bugs and on the contrary may make it much more difficult for the user to resolve since they limit how the user can interact with the system.
So consoles are most definately not a silver bullet in terms of game stability or bug squashing.
Well, guys here's the thing. The Xbox One and PS4 pre-release sales are very strong. At launch the hardware specs of the consoles will be a revelation to games. I think it likely that for the next years post-launch the next generation consoles will be the primary platforms around which games are developed, and the PC version will be more-or-less a port from them. That makes a lot of sense to game developers since you maximise your sales, but it means that PC gamers won't be the driving force driving game development.
Next point. For some games like MMOs you may simply want to use a wireless keyboard and mouse. There is no reason a games developer can't give you mouse and keyboard support for PS4 or Xbox One.
Finally, I think most major coming MMOs will have Xbox One and PS4 versions. It makes so much sense as it gives them much more people that might buy the game. No Surprise that Planetside 2, FF XIV, EQ Next, TESO and more will be developed for the console gamer. In the end high sales of Xbox One and PS4 will drive a new wave of gaming, and that wave will include MMOS.
I am at least glad that we have Kickstarter so there will be games available that doesn't cater to the demands of players requesting easy games, reach max lvl withing a month and ofc console UI and console support..
As I said before... create whatever mmo you want and let it support whatever you want, but they must realize that they can't simply make a slacker port from a console version into a PC version since it's useless and they will loose tons of customers doing that. They need to learn and realize that a PC isn't a gaming console and those buying a PC for gaming as a primary use are not really interested whatsoever in the consoles and their style. So keep consoles and PC's seperated and release two versions of the game and not one version ported over to the other typ of machine.
/E
That problem lies with games that are made for console and ported to PC. Look at FFXIV it works flawlessly with mouse and gamepad.
it is a problem with the game development not the fact that games are on both mediums. I think for the future since both PS4 and Xbox1 are using standard PC hardware development for multi platform versions will be in paralell vs serial for past multiplatform games. Control issues will no longer be a problem and Keyboard/mouse will be available for applicable games.
Until such time as consoles support KB+M or they find a better interface, consoles are a drag on PC MMO's.
I dont think we are so far away from that point though where consoles support Kb+M, and when they do, you will see alot of PC gamers convert for the simplicity. If i can spend 400 on a unit that will play my MMO with decent graphics...I dont need to spend 1500 for a gaming PC. (although, I must admit, I havent had to edit .ini files or anything like that for at least the past 5 years, other than updating a graphics driver every now and then, so not sure where the author is getting that. Only have to do that stuff with games..../procured/...from the internet.
I actually expect to see the two merge. More and more PC peeps are using TV's for their monitors, and we know that there is a market of idiot tehcno-geeks that will buy a propietary packaged PC if it is hyped enough, despite it being technically inferior. So MS and Sony have thier...home entertainment media center. Browse your pr0n, stream your movies, jam your tunes, play your games all in one nice box.