Originally posted by Four0Six The only reason to limit buttons, would be to cater to consoles.*ducks flying mouse with 15 buttons on it*
I have one of those mice and I can say at least for me, that one context sensitive button is better than four different buttons, each with a different purpose.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Gotta mention this again since I haven't said it yet in this thread I don't think...
If the game comes out on PS4, it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that it will have more than 8-12 actionbar buttons
Unfortunately, this isn't necessarily the case. The gamepad UI for FFXIV has 16 buttons available (beyond movement/camera) at once, and you can flip through 8 pages of these for a total of 128 mapped buttons if you really want to go nuts.
Originally posted by Four0Six The only reason to limit buttons, would be to cater to consoles.
*ducks flying mouse with 15 buttons on it*
I have one of those mice and I can say at least for me, that one context sensitive button is better than four different buttons, each with a different purpose.
I have kinda gotten use to having errr lets see nostromo game pad and G600 mouse, err around oh I don't wanna count lets say between 24 and 30 something bindable buttons I can push instantly.
while I understand some people don't get used to it or like it I still like the option to set up a thousand and one things to keybinds to include my favorite emotes, maybe FFXIV will have a easy use keybind system for people like me, who get silly.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
I think it just depends on the combat style. If you're going to have a traditional tab target combat system, you have to have lots of skills, spells, disciplines, consumables, etc etc to press to make it interesting.
If you have a fast paced action combat system, you can get away with fewer buttons, because you're putting more emphasis on twitch style game play (aiming, timing, etc).
GW2 was a kind of action/tab target mix. You had 10 skills, weapon/attunement swap button, dodge, tab, and class special buttons (1 to 4 depending on class), and I thought it worked really well. Gave lots to do, lots of customization.
Neverwinter is a little less than that (I think 2 at wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailies, a dodge/sprint/block and a tab skills.) and I find it to be too few and less interesting than GW2's combat.
I don't care what kind of combat EQN has, but I hope it's more interesting than Neverwinter.
Every single mmo that has limited "deck" selections, no matter how good the game, has forced me to quit it.
Limited skill/slot options is a game killer for me. Seeing how the word "console" keeps creeping into mmos these days I feel greatly that EQnext will indeed also limit buttons. Damn I hope not.
As already said I agree in ful. Limited skills and slot options are game killer for me. And also if they have designed game around 5 buttons then something very wrong. Not sure why they are infesting pc world with console style of gameplay.
This reminds me TSW, bug infested but very original and fun game ... loved it ... but when realized player is stuck with that silly 7 active buttons + 7 passive limit and all become total button mashing experence ... I quit.
I'm logging from time to time to check if they have added button slots ... quit next second i realise they did not. And guess there is not a lot of time left before I permanently delete client from my computer.
If you have to purchase a special mouse to play your character with the highest possible level of efficiency, your game probably has too many buttons. That being said, games like Neverwinter are far too limiting in how many active abilities you can have. Surely a game can settle somewhere in between?
Khm... if we are speaking about MMO games then game one can play with regular mouse only is not real MMO game or it is simplistic ad nauseam. I have Logitech G700 (best ever) and still my old G500 just in case.
I think it just depends on the combat style. If you're going to have a traditional tab target combat system, you have to have lots of skills, spells, disciplines, consumables, etc etc to press to make it interesting.
If you have a fast paced action combat system, you can get away with fewer buttons, because you're putting more emphasis on twitch style game play (aiming, timing, etc).
GW2 was a kind of action/tab target mix. You had 10 skills, weapon/attunement swap button, dodge, tab, and class special buttons (1 to 4 depending on class), and I thought it worked really well. Gave lots to do, lots of customization.
Neverwinter is a little less than that (I think 2 at wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailies, a dodge/sprint/block and a tab skills.) and I find it to be too few and less interesting than GW2's combat.
I don't care what kind of combat EQN has, but I hope it's more interesting than Neverwinter.
Much of what you say is true, however "twitch style game play" limits both the geographic and age distribution of you player base.
Australian and New Zealand players (and others in Oceania as well) like to play on North American servers. Why? Because it gives us the lowest lag and the timezone (PST) most likely to overlap with our playing times. So that means 200ms lag times, it can be less (but never less than 170 ms) and is often more. So what about a server based in Australia you may ask, in fact this almost never happens for an MMORPG. When we get an "Oceania" server it is based in LA or Vegas or somewhere else in North America. This can also apply to Europeans who play late at night and choose North American servers for the increased population.
For the second part, gamers are aging and unfortunately for all of us that means slower reflexes.
Now this may not matter for a US based publisher, it is well known only the US domestic market matters for television and movies.
Originally posted by craftseeker Originally posted by Gallus85I think it just depends on the combat style. If you're going to have a traditional tab target combat system, you have to have lots of skills, spells, disciplines, consumables, etc etc to press to make it interesting.If you have a fast paced action combat system, you can get away with fewer buttons, because you're putting more emphasis on twitch style game play (aiming, timing, etc).GW2 was a kind of action/tab target mix. You had 10 skills, weapon/attunement swap button, dodge, tab, and class special buttons (1 to 4 depending on class), and I thought it worked really well. Gave lots to do, lots of customization.Neverwinter is a little less than that (I think 2 at wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailies, a dodge/sprint/block and a tab skills.) and I find it to be too few and less interesting than GW2's combat.I don't care what kind of combat EQN has, but I hope it's more interesting than Neverwinter.
Much of what you say is true, however "twitch style game play" limits both the geographic and age distribution of you player base.
Australian and New Zealand players (and others in Oceania as well) like to play on North American servers. Why? Because it gives us the lowest lag and the timezone (PST) most likely to overlap with our playing times. So that means 200ms lag times, it can be less (but never less than 170 ms) and is often more. So what about a server based in Australia you may ask, in fact this almost never happens for an MMORPG. When we get an "Oceania" server it is based in LA or Vegas or somewhere else in North America. This can also apply to Europeans who play late at night and choose North American servers for the increased population.
For the second part, gamers are aging and unfortunately for all of us that means slower reflexes.
Now this may not matter for a US based publisher, it is well known only the US domestic market matters for television and movies.
It does however concern an aging Koala very much.
I'm 43 and I find a controller to be much more ergonomic, and much less taxing than a keyboard & mouse combination. I've had conversations with friends about "crampy mouse finger" or "crampy WASD fingers", but I've never had a conversation with anyone about "crampy controller fingers".
I think it is true that older gamers are going to gravitate towards the keyboard and mouse, but unless it's an FPS game, they aren't doing it for any sort of advantage, it's just what they're used to.
But again, if they are planning on releasing EQN on consoles, then they are going to limit the number of active abilities. There might be ability switching, or context sensitive buttons, but the overall number of active buttons to press is going to be limited by what a controller can conveniently do.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think it just depends on the combat style. If you're going to have a traditional tab target combat system, you have to have lots of skills, spells, disciplines, consumables, etc etc to press to make it interesting.
If you have a fast paced action combat system, you can get away with fewer buttons, because you're putting more emphasis on twitch style game play (aiming, timing, etc).
GW2 was a kind of action/tab target mix. You had 10 skills, weapon/attunement swap button, dodge, tab, and class special buttons (1 to 4 depending on class), and I thought it worked really well. Gave lots to do, lots of customization.
Neverwinter is a little less than that (I think 2 at wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailies, a dodge/sprint/block and a tab skills.) and I find it to be too few and less interesting than GW2's combat.
I don't care what kind of combat EQN has, but I hope it's more interesting than Neverwinter.
Much of what you say is true, however "twitch style game play" limits both the geographic and age distribution of you player base.
Australian and New Zealand players (and others in Oceania as well) like to play on North American servers. Why? Because it gives us the lowest lag and the timezone (PST) most likely to overlap with our playing times. So that means 200ms lag times, it can be less (but never less than 170 ms) and is often more. So what about a server based in Australia you may ask, in fact this almost never happens for an MMORPG. When we get an "Oceania" server it is based in LA or Vegas or somewhere else in North America. This can also apply to Europeans who play late at night and choose North American servers for the increased population.
For the second part, gamers are aging and unfortunately for all of us that means slower reflexes.
Now this may not matter for a US based publisher, it is well known only the US domestic market matters for television and movies.
It does however concern an aging Koala very much.
Well technically "All" of what I said was true, except for my opinion on neverwinter vs GW2 (That's just preference). When I spoke about the differences between action and traditional MMORPG controls, they were facts of game design. With action MMOs you have less buttons because you're de-emphasizing the traditional skill button strategy and putting more emphasis on action based game play (Aiming, timing, jumping, dodging, etc).
That's just a fact of design.
I even went on to say that I didn't care what style combat EQN had. I didn't profess that EQN was going to or should use either system, nor do I think either system is superior. Traditional style tab target is still a lot of fun for me. Action games have also been fun for me. They both have their merits if they're done right.
As for aging gamers, yes that's true. The average gamer's age has been raising steadily over the years. However, I don't think action MMOs alienate older gamers. Much of the combat in the game is assisted or slow paced (Think Tera and Neverwinter, where you don't really "aim", just basically face the right direction for the attack, and ranged spells are auto-aim assisted for the most part and the combat is a lot slower than in something like Counter Strike or Battlefield 3).
They are very controller friendly for people with joint problems or injuries.
disregard all nooblets ITT saying no 45-50+ buttons
see: #21 User Interface Section II in the LOTPENSAB linked in my signature
n_n
Sorry but thats just being retarded at setting up UI, its not the games fault someone have no spartial distribution sense.
Not once in my years of playing mmos i had cluttered screen with modules and hotbars to that kind of degree, not even close.
You can check some of the screenshots here http://www.excessum-gaming.com/gallery i preffer very clear minimalistic setup, but i will say no to any dumbing down mmos anymore than they already started. You get bored of the game before you even start it for good.
how are you saying no to the OPie yet linking to screenshots of Rift, Defiance, Neverwinter, FF14, Tera, Aion, & GW2...? O_o''...
I linked my recent screenshots, and he mentiones games like Rift/Tera/Aion as ones with to many keys to push.
Im not against slick clean UI. What im against is dumbing down gameplay like in NWN or Gw2. I love many buttons, no one says you have to have everything on your screen. Be smart about it.
Point is when you limit this stuff its less of an mmo and more of a coop game. I dont like my choices limited.
First, comparing an action game where movement and positioning to a tab targeting "RNG" To-Hit & Defense system is pointless. One of these systems is inherently more skillful and more challenging. I'll give you a hint, it's not the system that relies on a random number generator.
Second, more does not always equate to skill. It is near impossible for anyone to key bind hundreds of skills, pay attention to your surroundings and still perform at their peak. In fact everyone here who has ever raided in a game with multiple hotbar support and movement was necessary, at critical times during boss fights, not all the time like in GW2 or Neverwinter, can attest to shear stupidity of the amount of raiders who failed to get "out of the fire" in time. After 2+ years of playing Action MMO's I've yet to experience this level of "NOOBNESS" in any of these type of games. SO which leads me to believe, those guys in WoW or Rift were't bad, they were just too busy paying attention to their UI and keybinds (often times clicking) to notice the Fire the Boss put on the ground at the time. In a game like GW2 or Neverwinter, very rarely will I see someone make the mistake of standing in Fire and when they do they will inevitably get out within a fraction of time, instead of those "mouth breathers" we used to raid with they would never move unless the raid leader screamed at them in vent. Keep in mind the WoW/Rift/EQ raid scenario only requires minimal movement at pre-ordained times In the boss fights, whereas in a game like Neverwinter or GW2 if you're not moving and repositioning 99% of the fight you will die.
Lastly, what is more skillful and believable? Having access to every skill you're character has ever learned at a MOMENTS notice? or planning ahead and thinking about the situation in a coherent manner and bringing only those skills you're most comfortable with. Not only this, the limited hotbar UI design is not only more believable and life like but it is more fun, easier to balance, lets the players choose their method of restricting themselves. You can do anything but you can't do everything.
Action combat, limited hotbar will always be more skillful and allow the player to opportunity to play the game and not the UI. For this reason it is why I will never go back to the multi-hotbar, access to every skill "RNG" combat system of a Tab -Target MMO. My eyes were opened to the possibility and as someone who enjoyed both styles I have given undeniable proof as to the authenticity and validity to my argument.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
First, comparing an action game where movement and positioning to a tab targeting "RNG" To-Hit & Defense system is pointless. One of these systems is inherently more skillful and more challenging. I'll give you a hint, it's not the system that relies on a random number generator.
Second, more does not always equate to skill. It is near impossible for anyone to key bind hundreds of skills, pay attention to your surroundings and still perform at their peak. In fact everyone here who has ever raided in a game with multiple hotbar support and movement was necessary, at critical times during boss fights, not all the time like in GW2 or Neverwinter, can attest to shear stupidity of the amount of raiders who failed to get "out of the fire" in time. After 2+ years of playing Action MMO's I've yet to experience this level of "NOOBNESS" in any of these type of games. SO which leads me to believe, those guys in WoW or Rift were't bad, they were just too busy paying attention to their UI and keybinds (often times clicking) to notice the Fire the Boss put on the ground at the time. In a game like GW2 or Neverwinter, very rarely will I see someone make the mistake of standing in Fire and when they do they will inevitably get out within a fraction of time, instead of those "mouth breathers" we used to raid with they would never move unless the raid leader screamed at them in vent. Keep in mind the WoW/Rift/EQ raid scenario only requires minimal movement at pre-ordained times In the boss fights, whereas in a game like Neverwinter or GW2 if you're not moving and repositioning 99% of the fight you will die.
Lastly, what is more skillful and believable? Having access to every skill you're character has ever learned at a MOMENTS notice? or planning ahead and thinking about the situation in a coherent manner and bringing only those skills you're most comfortable with. Not only this, the limited hotbar UI design is not only more believable and life like but it is more fun, easier to balance, lets the players choose their method of restricting themselves. You can do anything but you can't do everything.
Action combat, limited hotbar will always be more skillful and allow the player to opportunity to play the game and not the UI. For this reason it is why I will never go back to the multi-hotbar, access to every skill "RNG" combat system of a Tab -Target MMO. My eyes were opened to the possibility and as someone who enjoyed both styles I have given undeniable proof as to the authenticity and validity to my argument.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I personally don't mind either system, but I have grown pretty fond of the new action style MMOs. Tera was a bit of a disappointment (Too slow and clunky imo), but GW2 and Neverwinter do it pretty well. I think it brings a lot of life into the gameplay itself when it's action packed. I enjoyed playing GW2, even if I wasn't out to get something or farming for a reward. Simply rolling around, knocking people around, jumping in and out of effect fields, paying attention to the enemy's movements..... actually playing the combat, was all the fun I needed.
Which I feel is of key importance for EQN. The game needs to be fun in the game play itself, not just from the rewards or trinkets you get after you're done.
I don't think EQN will be bad if it doesn't have an action combat system, either can be great if it's done right, but I agree that the action games have their charm.
Neverwinter's skills are really limited though imo. Too limited. I can understand keeping it clean so you can focus on the combat, but I think people can handle more than 6 or 7 attacks at a time lol.
I hate telegraphed lit up areas for where effects will hit. It just annoys me, I would say breaks immersion, but that is a whole argument, so I will go with it is annoying to see areas lighting up like a Christmas tree to warn you, "better move soon", "you are in a ae damage area".
If EQN is supposed to bring something so different I hope the combat/ability system is one of those aspects. There is something better than a completely static set of abilities, no matter how many there are.
How about a system that changes throughout the fight and gives you branched choices along the way. If the UI was handled correctly it would work on both PC and console. I think if you can make a combat system that feels different with every fight you've gone a step farther. It not it's just another hotkey system.
Every single mmo that has limited "deck" selections, no matter how good the game, has forced me to quit it.
Limited skill/slot options is a game killer for me. Seeing how the word "console" keeps creeping into mmos these days I feel greatly that EQnext will indeed also limit buttons. Damn I hope not.
You most likely quit because the game wasn't good, or the game failed to capture the spirit you were looking for or there was nothing to do at level cap.
I have never heard someone say they quit a "limited deck" building game due to it's combat and you're fooling yourself if you say otherwise. Look at my above points, You can not refute those arguments I bring up. Now you may prefer the 89768096 skills with 16 hotbars, but you only do so because of the games lack of systems. I would bet the world if a game came out with the depth and vastness of a living, breathing, dynamic, ever changing world that we all seek and it contained limited hotbar real estate you would enjoy it more then having to remember a metric shit ton of skills. You know and I know that a skill based, deck building system is way more fun, more enjoyable, and flat out better or else you would have games like Magic the Gathering tourneys with people winning with 400 card decks. More options does not equate more skill, having limitations and giving the player the choice of what skilsl to use is what makes dec building approaches so so so much better.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
First, comparing an action game where movement and positioning to a tab targeting "RNG" To-Hit & Defense system is pointless. One of these systems is inherently more skillful and more challenging. I'll give you a hint, it's not the system that relies on a random number generator.
Second, more does not always equate to skill. It is near impossible for anyone to key bind hundreds of skills, pay attention to your surroundings and still perform at their peak. In fact everyone here who has ever raided in a game with multiple hotbar support and movement was necessary, at critical times during boss fights, not all the time like in GW2 or Neverwinter, can attest to shear stupidity of the amount of raiders who failed to get "out of the fire" in time. After 2+ years of playing Action MMO's I've yet to experience this level of "NOOBNESS" in any of these type of games. SO which leads me to believe, those guys in WoW or Rift were't bad, they were just too busy paying attention to their UI and keybinds (often times clicking) to notice the Fire the Boss put on the ground at the time. In a game like GW2 or Neverwinter, very rarely will I see someone make the mistake of standing in Fire and when they do they will inevitably get out within a fraction of time, instead of those "mouth breathers" we used to raid with they would never move unless the raid leader screamed at them in vent. Keep in mind the WoW/Rift/EQ raid scenario only requires minimal movement at pre-ordained times In the boss fights, whereas in a game like Neverwinter or GW2 if you're not moving and repositioning 99% of the fight you will die.
Lastly, what is more skillful and believable? Having access to every skill you're character has ever learned at a MOMENTS notice? or planning ahead and thinking about the situation in a coherent manner and bringing only those skills you're most comfortable with. Not only this, the limited hotbar UI design is not only more believable and life like but it is more fun, easier to balance, lets the players choose their method of restricting themselves. You can do anything but you can't do everything.
Action combat, limited hotbar will always be more skillful and allow the player to opportunity to play the game and not the UI. For this reason it is why I will never go back to the multi-hotbar, access to every skill "RNG" combat system of a Tab -Target MMO. My eyes were opened to the possibility and as someone who enjoyed both styles I have given undeniable proof as to the authenticity and validity to my argument.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I personally don't mind either system, but I have grown pretty fond of the new action style MMOs. Tera was a bit of a disappointment (Too slow and clunky imo), but GW2 and Neverwinter do it pretty well. I think it brings a lot of life into the gameplay itself when it's action packed. I enjoyed playing GW2, even if I wasn't out to get something or farming for a reward. Simply rolling around, knocking people around, jumping in and out of effect fields, paying attention to the enemy's movements..... actually playing the combat, was all the fun I needed.
Which I feel is of key importance for EQN. The game needs to be fun in the game play itself, not just from the rewards or trinkets you get after you're done.
I don't think EQN will be bad if it doesn't have an action combat system, either can be great if it's done right, but I agree that the action games have their charm.
Neverwinter's skills are really limited though imo. Too limited. I can understand keeping it clean so you can focus on the combat, but I think people can handle more than 6 or 7 attacks at a time lol.
Agree with you on Neverwinter, I think 8 encounters is the perfect number. 3 encounters is not enough, even though its keeping with D&D 4.0 edition rules.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
disregard all nooblets ITT saying no 45-50+ buttons
see: #21 User Interface Section II in the LOTPENSAB linked in my signature
n_n
Sorry but thats just being retarded at setting up UI, its not the games fault someone have no spartial distribution sense.
Not once in my years of playing mmos i had cluttered screen with modules and hotbars to that kind of degree, not even close.
You can check some of the screenshots here http://www.excessum-gaming.com/gallery i preffer very clear minimalistic setup, but i will say no to any dumbing down mmos anymore than they already started. You get bored of the game before you even start it for good.
how are you saying no to the OPie yet linking to screenshots of Rift, Defiance, Neverwinter, FF14, Tera, Aion, & GW2...? O_o''...
I linked my recent screenshots, and he mentiones games like Rift/Tera/Aion as ones with to many keys to push.
Im not against slick clean UI. What im against is dumbing down gameplay like in NWN or Gw2. I love many buttons, no one says you have to have everything on your screen. Be smart about it.
Point is when you limit this stuff its less of an mmo and more of a coop game. I dont like my choices limited.
First, comparing an action game where movement and positioning to a tab targeting "RNG" To-Hit & Defense system is pointless. One of these systems is inherently more skillful and more challenging. I'll give you a hint, it's not the system that relies on a random number generator.
Second, more does not always equate to skill. It is near impossible for anyone to key bind hundreds of skills, pay attention to your surroundings and still perform at their peak. In fact everyone here who has ever raided in a game with multiple hotbar support and movement was necessary, at critical times during boss fights, not all the time like in GW2 or Neverwinter, can attest to shear stupidity of the amount of raiders who failed to get "out of the fire" in time. After 2+ years of playing Action MMO's I've yet to experience this level of "NOOBNESS" in any of these type of games. SO which leads me to believe, those guys in WoW or Rift were't bad, they were just too busy paying attention to their UI and keybinds (often times clicking) to notice the Fire the Boss put on the ground at the time. In a game like GW2 or Neverwinter, very rarely will I see someone make the mistake of standing in Fire and when they do they will inevitably get out within a fraction of time, instead of those "mouth breathers" we used to raid with they would never move unless the raid leader screamed at them in vent. Keep in mind the WoW/Rift/EQ raid scenario only requires minimal movement at pre-ordained times In the boss fights, whereas in a game like Neverwinter or GW2 if you're not moving and repositioning 99% of the fight you will die.
Lastly, what is more skillful and believable? Having access to every skill you're character has ever learned at a MOMENTS notice? or planning ahead and thinking about the situation in a coherent manner and bringing only those skills you're most comfortable with. Not only this, the limited hotbar UI design is not only more believable and life like but it is more fun, easier to balance, lets the players choose their method of restricting themselves. You can do anything but you can't do everything.
Action combat, limited hotbar will always be more skillful and allow the player to opportunity to play the game and not the UI. For this reason it is why I will never go back to the multi-hotbar, access to every skill "RNG" combat system of a Tab -Target MMO. My eyes were opened to the possibility and as someone who enjoyed both styles I have given undeniable proof as to the authenticity and validity to my argument.
That's cool and stuff,some people like games for retards.
Resorting to name calling. Real classy sir. Intellectually you've lost the debate.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Xthos I hate telegraphed lit up areas for where effects will hit. It just annoys me, I would say breaks immersion, but that is a whole argument, so I will go with it is annoying to see areas lighting up like a Christmas tree to warn you, "better move soon", "you are in a ae damage area".
This is something I whole-heartedly agree with. IMO it actually removes part of the skill factor in a movement based action combat game. The bad areas and ill effects should always come after the fact. i.e. a monster attacks and in his wake he leaves a fire trail or a poison cloud. Telegraphic that attacks removes some of the surprise and most of the skill from the equation. This is probably 1 of the main reasons why I will not play Wildstar.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Aelious If EQN is supposed to bring something so different I hope the combat/ability system is one of those aspects. There is something better than a completely static set of abilities, no matter how many there are.
How about a system that changes throughout the fight and gives you branched choices along the way. If the UI was handled correctly it would work on both PC and console. I think if you can make a combat system that feels different with every fight you've gone a step farther. It not it's just another hotkey system.
Sounds somewhat like how "Chronicles of Spellborn" was set up. I always thought that was an innovative combat system and that is the type of multiple-skill combat systems I could support. In that game you had access to the same amount of skills as say WoW or Rift but had the limitations of allowing only the use of 5 skills every few seconds. And the hotbar rotated to the next set of skills.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I'm not sure how much this discussion has strayed from the OP but.... welcome to one of the most serious questions you can ask about how to make a competitive game. A lot of people believe that the best game is one that takes 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master.
It's why I despise MOBAs and, to an extent WC3. It's also why I love sc2 but understand it has some faults. The hardest and most satisfying part of sc2 is the mechanics. Things that even a bronze league player would know about but can't do them all at once because it's just too hard. Contrast this with games like WoW where you simply have to KNOW a ton of different shit before you can be competitive and the execution is much less a factor than simply knowing all of the things.
Q3 is believed to be one of the best (if not the best) competitive FPS games to have existed, and it's incredibly simple. It's pure. There's never any "oh great... I didn't know that character had that ability and now I'm dead."
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by waynejr2 I want lots of buttons and many more skills/abilities.
I think too many would be better than too few, that's for sure.
I'd love EQN to have at least as many as GW2 had. You had around 16-19 skills at any one given time depending on your class, and you had a huge array of skills and abilities you could swap out to change it up. Highly customizable. It was a great combat and character customization system.
... Please, no. Dumbing down the game =/= more fun. It doesn't have to be complex but making combat stupid takes out the fun, both for the hardcore and the casual who thinks "Oh but then its easier and I can enjoy it" except you will find out that it becomes boring for you and likely you will move on games.
Sure, if you are going for a simplified UI, one that isn't so cluttered I can support it, but dumbing the game down only hurts the game.
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I have one of those mice and I can say at least for me, that one context sensitive button is better than four different buttons, each with a different purpose.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Gotta mention this again since I haven't said it yet in this thread I don't think...
If the game comes out on PS4, it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that it will have more than 8-12 actionbar buttons
Unfortunately, this isn't necessarily the case. The gamepad UI for FFXIV has 16 buttons available (beyond movement/camera) at once, and you can flip through 8 pages of these for a total of 128 mapped buttons if you really want to go nuts.
I have kinda gotten use to having errr lets see nostromo game pad and G600 mouse, err around oh I don't wanna count lets say between 24 and 30 something bindable buttons I can push instantly.
while I understand some people don't get used to it or like it I still like the option to set up a thousand and one things to keybinds to include my favorite emotes, maybe FFXIV will have a easy use keybind system for people like me, who get silly.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
I think it just depends on the combat style. If you're going to have a traditional tab target combat system, you have to have lots of skills, spells, disciplines, consumables, etc etc to press to make it interesting.
If you have a fast paced action combat system, you can get away with fewer buttons, because you're putting more emphasis on twitch style game play (aiming, timing, etc).
GW2 was a kind of action/tab target mix. You had 10 skills, weapon/attunement swap button, dodge, tab, and class special buttons (1 to 4 depending on class), and I thought it worked really well. Gave lots to do, lots of customization.
Neverwinter is a little less than that (I think 2 at wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailies, a dodge/sprint/block and a tab skills.) and I find it to be too few and less interesting than GW2's combat.
I don't care what kind of combat EQN has, but I hope it's more interesting than Neverwinter.
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As already said I agree in ful. Limited skills and slot options are game killer for me. And also if they have designed game around 5 buttons then something very wrong. Not sure why they are infesting pc world with console style of gameplay.
This reminds me TSW, bug infested but very original and fun game ... loved it ... but when realized player is stuck with that silly 7 active buttons + 7 passive limit and all become total button mashing experence ... I quit.
I'm logging from time to time to check if they have added button slots ... quit next second i realise they did not. And guess there is not a lot of time left before I permanently delete client from my computer.
Khm... if we are speaking about MMO games then game one can play with regular mouse only is not real MMO game or it is simplistic ad nauseam. I have Logitech G700 (best ever) and still my old G500 just in case.
Much of what you say is true, however "twitch style game play" limits both the geographic and age distribution of you player base.
Australian and New Zealand players (and others in Oceania as well) like to play on North American servers. Why? Because it gives us the lowest lag and the timezone (PST) most likely to overlap with our playing times. So that means 200ms lag times, it can be less (but never less than 170 ms) and is often more. So what about a server based in Australia you may ask, in fact this almost never happens for an MMORPG. When we get an "Oceania" server it is based in LA or Vegas or somewhere else in North America. This can also apply to Europeans who play late at night and choose North American servers for the increased population.
For the second part, gamers are aging and unfortunately for all of us that means slower reflexes.
Now this may not matter for a US based publisher, it is well known only the US domestic market matters for television and movies.
It does however concern an aging Koala very much.
Australian and New Zealand players (and others in Oceania as well) like to play on North American servers. Why? Because it gives us the lowest lag and the timezone (PST) most likely to overlap with our playing times. So that means 200ms lag times, it can be less (but never less than 170 ms) and is often more. So what about a server based in Australia you may ask, in fact this almost never happens for an MMORPG. When we get an "Oceania" server it is based in LA or Vegas or somewhere else in North America. This can also apply to Europeans who play late at night and choose North American servers for the increased population.
For the second part, gamers are aging and unfortunately for all of us that means slower reflexes.
Now this may not matter for a US based publisher, it is well known only the US domestic market matters for television and movies.
It does however concern an aging Koala very much.
I'm 43 and I find a controller to be much more ergonomic, and much less taxing than a keyboard & mouse combination. I've had conversations with friends about "crampy mouse finger" or "crampy WASD fingers", but I've never had a conversation with anyone about "crampy controller fingers".
I think it is true that older gamers are going to gravitate towards the keyboard and mouse, but unless it's an FPS game, they aren't doing it for any sort of advantage, it's just what they're used to.
But again, if they are planning on releasing EQN on consoles, then they are going to limit the number of active abilities. There might be ability switching, or context sensitive buttons, but the overall number of active buttons to press is going to be limited by what a controller can conveniently do.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well technically "All" of what I said was true, except for my opinion on neverwinter vs GW2 (That's just preference). When I spoke about the differences between action and traditional MMORPG controls, they were facts of game design. With action MMOs you have less buttons because you're de-emphasizing the traditional skill button strategy and putting more emphasis on action based game play (Aiming, timing, jumping, dodging, etc).
That's just a fact of design.
I even went on to say that I didn't care what style combat EQN had. I didn't profess that EQN was going to or should use either system, nor do I think either system is superior. Traditional style tab target is still a lot of fun for me. Action games have also been fun for me. They both have their merits if they're done right.
As for aging gamers, yes that's true. The average gamer's age has been raising steadily over the years. However, I don't think action MMOs alienate older gamers. Much of the combat in the game is assisted or slow paced (Think Tera and Neverwinter, where you don't really "aim", just basically face the right direction for the attack, and ranged spells are auto-aim assisted for the most part and the combat is a lot slower than in something like Counter Strike or Battlefield 3).
They are very controller friendly for people with joint problems or injuries.
I just wanted to clear that up.
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First, comparing an action game where movement and positioning to a tab targeting "RNG" To-Hit & Defense system is pointless. One of these systems is inherently more skillful and more challenging. I'll give you a hint, it's not the system that relies on a random number generator.
Second, more does not always equate to skill. It is near impossible for anyone to key bind hundreds of skills, pay attention to your surroundings and still perform at their peak. In fact everyone here who has ever raided in a game with multiple hotbar support and movement was necessary, at critical times during boss fights, not all the time like in GW2 or Neverwinter, can attest to shear stupidity of the amount of raiders who failed to get "out of the fire" in time. After 2+ years of playing Action MMO's I've yet to experience this level of "NOOBNESS" in any of these type of games. SO which leads me to believe, those guys in WoW or Rift were't bad, they were just too busy paying attention to their UI and keybinds (often times clicking) to notice the Fire the Boss put on the ground at the time. In a game like GW2 or Neverwinter, very rarely will I see someone make the mistake of standing in Fire and when they do they will inevitably get out within a fraction of time, instead of those "mouth breathers" we used to raid with they would never move unless the raid leader screamed at them in vent. Keep in mind the WoW/Rift/EQ raid scenario only requires minimal movement at pre-ordained times In the boss fights, whereas in a game like Neverwinter or GW2 if you're not moving and repositioning 99% of the fight you will die.
Lastly, what is more skillful and believable? Having access to every skill you're character has ever learned at a MOMENTS notice? or planning ahead and thinking about the situation in a coherent manner and bringing only those skills you're most comfortable with. Not only this, the limited hotbar UI design is not only more believable and life like but it is more fun, easier to balance, lets the players choose their method of restricting themselves. You can do anything but you can't do everything.
Action combat, limited hotbar will always be more skillful and allow the player to opportunity to play the game and not the UI. For this reason it is why I will never go back to the multi-hotbar, access to every skill "RNG" combat system of a Tab -Target MMO. My eyes were opened to the possibility and as someone who enjoyed both styles I have given undeniable proof as to the authenticity and validity to my argument.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I agree with a lot of what you said. I personally don't mind either system, but I have grown pretty fond of the new action style MMOs. Tera was a bit of a disappointment (Too slow and clunky imo), but GW2 and Neverwinter do it pretty well. I think it brings a lot of life into the gameplay itself when it's action packed. I enjoyed playing GW2, even if I wasn't out to get something or farming for a reward. Simply rolling around, knocking people around, jumping in and out of effect fields, paying attention to the enemy's movements..... actually playing the combat, was all the fun I needed.
Which I feel is of key importance for EQN. The game needs to be fun in the game play itself, not just from the rewards or trinkets you get after you're done.
I don't think EQN will be bad if it doesn't have an action combat system, either can be great if it's done right, but I agree that the action games have their charm.
Neverwinter's skills are really limited though imo. Too limited. I can understand keeping it clean so you can focus on the combat, but I think people can handle more than 6 or 7 attacks at a time lol.
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How about a system that changes throughout the fight and gives you branched choices along the way. If the UI was handled correctly it would work on both PC and console. I think if you can make a combat system that feels different with every fight you've gone a step farther. It not it's just another hotkey system.
You most likely quit because the game wasn't good, or the game failed to capture the spirit you were looking for or there was nothing to do at level cap.
I have never heard someone say they quit a "limited deck" building game due to it's combat and you're fooling yourself if you say otherwise. Look at my above points, You can not refute those arguments I bring up. Now you may prefer the 89768096 skills with 16 hotbars, but you only do so because of the games lack of systems. I would bet the world if a game came out with the depth and vastness of a living, breathing, dynamic, ever changing world that we all seek and it contained limited hotbar real estate you would enjoy it more then having to remember a metric shit ton of skills. You know and I know that a skill based, deck building system is way more fun, more enjoyable, and flat out better or else you would have games like Magic the Gathering tourneys with people winning with 400 card decks. More options does not equate more skill, having limitations and giving the player the choice of what skilsl to use is what makes dec building approaches so so so much better.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Agree with you on Neverwinter, I think 8 encounters is the perfect number. 3 encounters is not enough, even though its keeping with D&D 4.0 edition rules.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Resorting to name calling. Real classy sir. Intellectually you've lost the debate.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Many attacks are fine as long as they actually are different. Same attacks with different names really is a waste of space.
I hope they make timing a little more important now then earlier, all to take away the boring skill rotation so many games have.
This is something I whole-heartedly agree with. IMO it actually removes part of the skill factor in a movement based action combat game. The bad areas and ill effects should always come after the fact. i.e. a monster attacks and in his wake he leaves a fire trail or a poison cloud. Telegraphic that attacks removes some of the surprise and most of the skill from the equation. This is probably 1 of the main reasons why I will not play Wildstar.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Sounds somewhat like how "Chronicles of Spellborn" was set up. I always thought that was an innovative combat system and that is the type of multiple-skill combat systems I could support. In that game you had access to the same amount of skills as say WoW or Rift but had the limitations of allowing only the use of 5 skills every few seconds. And the hotbar rotated to the next set of skills.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I'm not sure how much this discussion has strayed from the OP but.... welcome to one of the most serious questions you can ask about how to make a competitive game. A lot of people believe that the best game is one that takes 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master.
It's why I despise MOBAs and, to an extent WC3. It's also why I love sc2 but understand it has some faults. The hardest and most satisfying part of sc2 is the mechanics. Things that even a bronze league player would know about but can't do them all at once because it's just too hard. Contrast this with games like WoW where you simply have to KNOW a ton of different shit before you can be competitive and the execution is much less a factor than simply knowing all of the things.
Q3 is believed to be one of the best (if not the best) competitive FPS games to have existed, and it's incredibly simple. It's pure. There's never any "oh great... I didn't know that character had that ability and now I'm dead."
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think too many would be better than too few, that's for sure.
I'd love EQN to have at least as many as GW2 had. You had around 16-19 skills at any one given time depending on your class, and you had a huge array of skills and abilities you could swap out to change it up. Highly customizable. It was a great combat and character customization system.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Well you could always add more; you can't really take any away. Look at entitlements in the US....
... Please, no. Dumbing down the game =/= more fun. It doesn't have to be complex but making combat stupid takes out the fun, both for the hardcore and the casual who thinks "Oh but then its easier and I can enjoy it" except you will find out that it becomes boring for you and likely you will move on games.
Sure, if you are going for a simplified UI, one that isn't so cluttered I can support it, but dumbing the game down only hurts the game.