Nope. Want me to spend money, don't tell me it's free to play.
I use my money for sub based games.
I have to say, even though I don't agree with you, I agree with you.
Or better said, I believe people should always be compensated for their service(s) if they do a good job and give me good value.
Having said that, if a game company wants to make money (which it should) then it is essentially gambling on whether or not people are going to be "up front" and pay for getting that good value.
The cake could be the best in the world but if someone comes a long and sees a sign saying "free cake" then no matter how good it is, they are still going to get people who say "well thanks for the best cake in the world, you're swell, c'ya".
As opposed to offering the best cake in the world, and having people make the decision that the cake is worth the money.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And guilt should not be felt at all here. Why not spend your paycheck on World Vision or Unicef or charities like that if your conscience is bothering you.
Real issues of the world take a back seat but those poor devs offering a free game where, and this is the kicker...should you wish to, spend real money to buy something and support them to your heart's content is worthy of guilt for those not buying anything?!
Why not just come out and say to those who pay nothing, "Shame on you, you selfish ingrates!" because in the end, are you really trying to gauge what posters here think to assuage your own feelings or is it a confirmation of an already established conviction?!
And guilt should not be felt at all here. Why not spend your paycheck on World Vision or Unicef or charities like that if your conscience is bothering you.
Real issues of the world take a back seat but those poor devs offering a free game where, and this is the kicker...should you wish to, spend real money to buy something and support them to your heart's content is worthy of guilt for those not buying anything?!
Why not just come out and say to those who pay nothing, "Shame on you, you selfish ingrates!" because in the end, are you really trying to gauge what posters here think to assuage your own feelings or is it a confirmation of an already established conviction?!
Morally aware indeed...
Well said, and I agree entirely.
Someone will doubtless respond: "Contributing to those global charities and paying F2P devs are not mutually exclusive!" True; but the point is that this is the same (though less widely and ardently shouted) sort of bad conscience guilting into paying that those charities employ...except they are actually asking for charity - not a business transaction - and usually for far more dire issues than any situation game devs are in. People guilting others who don't pay for a game that is *offered* as 'free to play', are not making necessary consistent discriminations between when morality should come into play and when not.
Originally posted by Scot Free loading players are the MMO version of tax dodgers. They put nothing in, but expect a lot out of their society or game.
Only that it is "legal", and devs practically beg players to come in to play free.
And why shouldn't they expect something when the devs are the ones who raise that expectation?
Personally i don't whine when i hit a pay wall. I move on. I don't feel guilty at all. It is a free world. Devs can easily make the game p2p if they so wish.
Why do I care anymore about F2P games? I honestly dont because over the long term this house of cards will fall down and cause many publishers to shut their games down. Right now F2P is making money because the majority of people have not figured out that they paid more in F2P than that $150 per year sub at the end of the day. Once people figure out F2P is not free people will stop playing these games and all the publishers who spent Millions on a game just to go F2P will end up going belly up and closing their doors.
Originally posted by danwest58 Why do I care anymore about F2P games? I honestly dont because over the long term this house of cards will fall down and cause many publishers to shut their games down. Right now F2P is making money because the majority of people have not figured out that they paid more in F2P than that $150 per year sub at the end of the day. Once people figure out F2P is not free people will stop playing these games and all the publishers who spent Millions on a game just to go F2P will end up going belly up and closing their doors.
A majority of players are not paying in F2P games.
Personally i have yet to pay a dime. I bet all the p2p will get shut down first .. or better yet .. converted to f2P before anything else happen.
But at the end, whether it will be last or not don't concern me. Even if all f2p are shutting down in a year, there is no reason why i should not have my free fun now.
Wouldn't know OP, if I like the game. I become a whale. If not I usually leave with haste. Except for tor. I middle grounded that game. The store had nothing Iwanted but I bought coins in support. I just sit on them.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Originally posted by danwest58 Why do I care anymore about F2P games? I honestly dont because over the long term this house of cards will fall down and cause many publishers to shut their games down. Right now F2P is making money because the majority of people have not figured out that they paid more in F2P than that $150 per year sub at the end of the day. Once people figure out F2P is not free people will stop playing these games and all the publishers who spent Millions on a game just to go F2P will end up going belly up and closing their doors.
A majority of players are not paying in F2P games.
Personally i have yet to pay a dime. I bet all the p2p will get shut down first .. or better yet .. converted to f2P before anything else happen.
But at the end, whether it will be last or not don't concern me. Even if all f2p are shutting down in a year, there is no reason why i should not have my free fun now.
The studies quoted on here indicated somewhere between a third and a half of players in a F2P MMO do buy something. Maybe they only make one purchase, but they do purchase. Cash shop MMO's are constructed so it is tricky to work out how much you have spent, you are never going to see a total expenditure figure when you go into the cash shop! So I think players are going to take years to figure out they are overpaying. Of course if you never pay anything, you know where you stand.
I don't see this revenue system going away, if anything the cash shop has become king. Already it is integral to Steam and Origin, the online game providers are the cash shop. More games feature items to buy after release than ever before, they hold back content or don't even finish of part of the game properly and expect you to buy an add on. Mobile phone users are very used to the idea of paying for apps and games, they are now the player base the gaming industry is looking to expand into and get new players from.
The ideology of the cash shop revenue system has spread its tentacles into gaming everywhere, not just MMOs. Paying once is becoming a thing of the past, paying monthly is going out the window. The cash shop which distorts gameplay and is inherently P2W is now the hallmark of gaming in this decade.
If they're offering the game for free, and they're giving me enough of the game without feeling the need to spend a dime, why would I ever feel guilty about that?
I will support a game if I play it for a while and feel it's worth investing in, and want it to be easier in certain aspects, like extra bag space, or something.
There is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about, though. Ever.
If you can successfully "get away with" playing a substantial portion of the game without investing a dime...
The game isn't properly marketing the features in the shop.
Journey in the wayback machine; games once sold second characters ( can you imagine paying for every new alt !!??) and locker space, no respecs were 'free'. There's a lot of ways the producers could make freeloading effectively impossible (charge to get beyond L5 with a L100 cap?)
On the other hand, these 'freeloaders' generate a lot of free viral advertising, and there appear to be sufficient 'payers' to carry the load...price point structuring these games seems to be charging as much as the market will bear (but no more).
Nothing to feel guilty about. They know exactly what they're doing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And guilt should not be felt at all here. Why not spend your paycheck on World Vision or Unicef or charities like that if your conscience is bothering you.
Real issues of the world take a back seat but those poor devs offering a free game where, and this is the kicker...should you wish to, spend real money to buy something and support them to your heart's content is worthy of guilt for those not buying anything?!
Why not just come out and say to those who pay nothing, "Shame on you, you selfish ingrates!" because in the end, are you really trying to gauge what posters here think to assuage your own feelings or is it a confirmation of an already established conviction?!
Morally aware indeed...
And you know how i don't do my part with real issues in the world? you don't know me and i have no reason to plug my contribution to social causes here on gaming forums.
I see that you love to assume a lot about people. My reply about being more morally aware has nothing to do with calling you a selfish ingrates. If that is how you felt then i can assure you the problem is with you , don't try to project your own thoughts on me and try to twist the meaning of my post. No idea why you are so bitter though.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Specifically speaking for free to play games, I whole heartedly believe that if you enjoy the product, you should give some kind of money. Why?
1) Money supports the company behind the game. It keeps them employed and it keeps the genre as a whole strong and healthy. When companies start failing, and it becomes a trend, it hurts the whole genre and industry.
2) the higher amount of player conversion to spender, the less 'pay to win' a game becomes. What does this mean? Basically the higher percentage a game's player base spends money, the less the devs have to rely on cheap tactics to get players spending. Cheap tactics like lottery 'box' items, expensive and overpowered cash only items, or anything similar to that.
Sure, you can spend nothing. But don't complain when that company falls on hard times. Don't complain when fewer and fewer games start to be published. Why not support the games that give you enjoyment?
i dont feel guilty when i dont pay in f2p mmos because it would be more than justified. There are three situations where i would not pay a single cent in a f2p mmo.
1) if i cant afford it for it for any economic reason
2) if the cash shop is pay to win, or
3) if its a hybrid model where free players cannot be competitive even if they use cash shop because they have gear (among others) limitations unless they subscribe (swtor im looking at you on this one). You try to force me to sub and you wont get a penny.
Outside of these three situations im happy to support the mmos i enjoy playing.
while we may like to criticize developer's for "not knowing what they are doing," do you really think their financial division is just signing off on any halfwitted idea that floats through their office?
these companies know very well what they are doing, even when it does involve financial risk for them.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Free to plays (bleh term) with cash shops are not designed around the vast majority of the players that play them, they are designed for the say 3% (totally made up number) of players that are called "whales".
Whales are the players that think nothing of paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month to get everything they want right when they want it. Yes they do exist, yes they do pay that kind of RL money to get advantages in the games they currently play.
Everything they pick up from the non whales in terms of money sales is just added gravy for their boat.
They "allow" non-whales to play because it gives them a seemingly vibrant play space for the whales to cruise around in and feel superior. if there were no non-whales everyone would have everything and there would be no feelings of superiority for the whales which is very bad for the play space owners who want to make oodles of cash.
TL;DR: You shouldn't feel guilty about not paying anything in a free to play as you are fulfilling your designed in role in the game just by logging in.
Nor should I. The designers did a design choice that left me with a choice not to pay. If I execise that choice, that is my right. If the developer want guaranteed income they should make me pay up front, aka. do p2p or b2p. Some players not paying for your service is what they gave you as a valid option when they made the game f2p.
I still think developers would be better off just doing the old demo's and time limited trails instead of f2p, if they get all shocked and grumpy about people not paying for their f2p title.
I have had thousands of hours worth of fun lately playing games like NW, STO and AION. More than i ever had while playing sub MMOS. But i felt bad for not spending a dime and felt really cheap and thought it is like taking advantage of someone's hard work. After all these devs don't work for free and have bills to pay and their families to take care of.
Was i being selfish? cheap? (i did spend some money in cash shop of Aion and bought some zen for STO / NW just to show my support)
If I really enjoy a game I do buy some stuff in it, usually bank or character slots and sometimes a little fluff.
I wont the first 2 months though, but anything that keeps me going longer deserves to get payed. Support what you like so the good stuff gets funded.
I have the same opinion about music, if I like something I go to the liveshows and buy a T-shirt. No CDs though, that mostly supports the record companies while the band gets a lot more from T-shirt and concerts.
Just vote with your money. If you love something but never pay anything you don't really have the right to complain if they change it or close it down.
Just vote with your money. If you love something but never pay anything you don't really have the right to complain if they change it or close it down.
Nah .. there is free speech in this country. You always have the right to whine, but the devs have the right to ignore you.
I still think developers would be better off just doing the old demo's and time limited trails instead of f2p, if they get all shocked and grumpy about people not paying for their f2p title.
Where do you get that? All i read is how happy devs are when F2P is bringing in more money. They wouldn't mind some playing their game for free, as long as the whales bring in more money than subs.
No.... but I don't spend a minute in any F2P game.
Would I feel guilty? Maybe, but probably because I knew I was contributing to the destruction of quality video games by playing them, not because I wasn't paying for it.
Sure, you can spend nothing. But don't complain when that company falls on hard times. Don't complain when fewer and fewer games start to be published. Why not support the games that give you enjoyment?
Because whales are doing that just fine, and there are more important things to spend money on than F2P MMOs?
And guilt should not be felt at all here. Why not spend your paycheck on World Vision or Unicef or charities like that if your conscience is bothering you.
Real issues of the world take a back seat but those poor devs offering a free game where, and this is the kicker...should you wish to, spend real money to buy something and support them to your heart's content is worthy of guilt for those not buying anything?!
Why not just come out and say to those who pay nothing, "Shame on you, you selfish ingrates!" because in the end, are you really trying to gauge what posters here think to assuage your own feelings or is it a confirmation of an already established conviction?!
Morally aware indeed...
And you know how i don't do my part with real issues in the world? you don't know me and i have no reason to plug my contribution to social causes here on gaming forums.
I see that you love to assume a lot about people. My reply about being more morally aware has nothing to do with calling you a selfish ingrates. If that is how you felt then i can assure you the problem is with you , don't try to project your own thoughts on me and try to twist the meaning of my post. No idea why you are so bitter though.
Then pray explain what you meant by 'Morally aware' if not to disassociate yourself from those opposite of that?
I don't assume anything, i go with what is there. If you wish not to be called out on something, define it better then there wouldn't be any misunderstandings. I can respect one's point of view even if i don't agree with it. Just be concise.
My 'problem' is seeing people seemingly present themselves or their ideals as the only viable way to be. The world is too diverse to be have only one way of being, thinking, acting. If that's really what you weren't doing then of course I apologize. Understand though that it can be construed as such.
I'm not bitter. I love a good discussion, so long as it doesn't degrade into squabbles and condescension.
Comments
I have to say, even though I don't agree with you, I agree with you.
Or better said, I believe people should always be compensated for their service(s) if they do a good job and give me good value.
Having said that, if a game company wants to make money (which it should) then it is essentially gambling on whether or not people are going to be "up front" and pay for getting that good value.
The cake could be the best in the world but if someone comes a long and sees a sign saying "free cake" then no matter how good it is, they are still going to get people who say "well thanks for the best cake in the world, you're swell, c'ya".
As opposed to offering the best cake in the world, and having people make the decision that the cake is worth the money.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nope.
And guilt should not be felt at all here. Why not spend your paycheck on World Vision or Unicef or charities like that if your conscience is bothering you.
Real issues of the world take a back seat but those poor devs offering a free game where, and this is the kicker...should you wish to, spend real money to buy something and support them to your heart's content is worthy of guilt for those not buying anything?!
Why not just come out and say to those who pay nothing, "Shame on you, you selfish ingrates!" because in the end, are you really trying to gauge what posters here think to assuage your own feelings or is it a confirmation of an already established conviction?!
Morally aware indeed...
Well said, and I agree entirely.
Someone will doubtless respond: "Contributing to those global charities and paying F2P devs are not mutually exclusive!" True; but the point is that this is the same (though less widely and ardently shouted) sort of bad conscience guilting into paying that those charities employ...except they are actually asking for charity - not a business transaction - and usually for far more dire issues than any situation game devs are in. People guilting others who don't pay for a game that is *offered* as 'free to play', are not making necessary consistent discriminations between when morality should come into play and when not.
That's a terrible analogy. If it helps you rationalize your cash shop purchases though, be my guest.
Only that it is "legal", and devs practically beg players to come in to play free.
And why shouldn't they expect something when the devs are the ones who raise that expectation?
Personally i don't whine when i hit a pay wall. I move on. I don't feel guilty at all. It is a free world. Devs can easily make the game p2p if they so wish.
A majority of players are not paying in F2P games.
Personally i have yet to pay a dime. I bet all the p2p will get shut down first .. or better yet .. converted to f2P before anything else happen.
But at the end, whether it will be last or not don't concern me. Even if all f2p are shutting down in a year, there is no reason why i should not have my free fun now.
Wouldn't know OP, if I like the game. I become a whale. If not I usually leave with haste. Except for tor. I middle grounded that game. The store had nothing Iwanted but I bought coins in support. I just sit on them.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
The studies quoted on here indicated somewhere between a third and a half of players in a F2P MMO do buy something. Maybe they only make one purchase, but they do purchase. Cash shop MMO's are constructed so it is tricky to work out how much you have spent, you are never going to see a total expenditure figure when you go into the cash shop! So I think players are going to take years to figure out they are overpaying. Of course if you never pay anything, you know where you stand.
I don't see this revenue system going away, if anything the cash shop has become king. Already it is integral to Steam and Origin, the online game providers are the cash shop. More games feature items to buy after release than ever before, they hold back content or don't even finish of part of the game properly and expect you to buy an add on. Mobile phone users are very used to the idea of paying for apps and games, they are now the player base the gaming industry is looking to expand into and get new players from.
The ideology of the cash shop revenue system has spread its tentacles into gaming everywhere, not just MMOs. Paying once is becoming a thing of the past, paying monthly is going out the window. The cash shop which distorts gameplay and is inherently P2W is now the hallmark of gaming in this decade.
MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!
If they're offering the game for free, and they're giving me enough of the game without feeling the need to spend a dime, why would I ever feel guilty about that?
I will support a game if I play it for a while and feel it's worth investing in, and want it to be easier in certain aspects, like extra bag space, or something.
There is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about, though. Ever.
If you can successfully "get away with" playing a substantial portion of the game without investing a dime...
The game isn't properly marketing the features in the shop.
Journey in the wayback machine; games once sold second characters ( can you imagine paying for every new alt !!??) and locker space, no respecs were 'free'. There's a lot of ways the producers could make freeloading effectively impossible (charge to get beyond L5 with a L100 cap?)
On the other hand, these 'freeloaders' generate a lot of free viral advertising, and there appear to be sufficient 'payers' to carry the load...price point structuring these games seems to be charging as much as the market will bear (but no more).
Nothing to feel guilty about. They know exactly what they're doing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And you know how i don't do my part with real issues in the world? you don't know me and i have no reason to plug my contribution to social causes here on gaming forums.
I see that you love to assume a lot about people. My reply about being more morally aware has nothing to do with calling you a selfish ingrates. If that is how you felt then i can assure you the problem is with you , don't try to project your own thoughts on me and try to twist the meaning of my post. No idea why you are so bitter though.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Specifically speaking for free to play games, I whole heartedly believe that if you enjoy the product, you should give some kind of money. Why?
1) Money supports the company behind the game. It keeps them employed and it keeps the genre as a whole strong and healthy. When companies start failing, and it becomes a trend, it hurts the whole genre and industry.
2) the higher amount of player conversion to spender, the less 'pay to win' a game becomes. What does this mean? Basically the higher percentage a game's player base spends money, the less the devs have to rely on cheap tactics to get players spending. Cheap tactics like lottery 'box' items, expensive and overpowered cash only items, or anything similar to that.
Sure, you can spend nothing. But don't complain when that company falls on hard times. Don't complain when fewer and fewer games start to be published. Why not support the games that give you enjoyment?
i dont feel guilty when i dont pay in f2p mmos because it would be more than justified. There are three situations where i would not pay a single cent in a f2p mmo.
1) if i cant afford it for it for any economic reason
2) if the cash shop is pay to win, or
3) if its a hybrid model where free players cannot be competitive even if they use cash shop because they have gear (among others) limitations unless they subscribe (swtor im looking at you on this one). You try to force me to sub and you wont get a penny.
Outside of these three situations im happy to support the mmos i enjoy playing.
while we may like to criticize developer's for "not knowing what they are doing," do you really think their financial division is just signing off on any halfwitted idea that floats through their office?
these companies know very well what they are doing, even when it does involve financial risk for them.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Free to plays (bleh term) with cash shops are not designed around the vast majority of the players that play them, they are designed for the say 3% (totally made up number) of players that are called "whales".
Whales are the players that think nothing of paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month to get everything they want right when they want it. Yes they do exist, yes they do pay that kind of RL money to get advantages in the games they currently play.
Everything they pick up from the non whales in terms of money sales is just added gravy for their boat.
They "allow" non-whales to play because it gives them a seemingly vibrant play space for the whales to cruise around in and feel superior. if there were no non-whales everyone would have everything and there would be no feelings of superiority for the whales which is very bad for the play space owners who want to make oodles of cash.
TL;DR: You shouldn't feel guilty about not paying anything in a free to play as you are fulfilling your designed in role in the game just by logging in.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
No.
Nor should I. The designers did a design choice that left me with a choice not to pay. If I execise that choice, that is my right. If the developer want guaranteed income they should make me pay up front, aka. do p2p or b2p. Some players not paying for your service is what they gave you as a valid option when they made the game f2p.
I still think developers would be better off just doing the old demo's and time limited trails instead of f2p, if they get all shocked and grumpy about people not paying for their f2p title.
If I really enjoy a game I do buy some stuff in it, usually bank or character slots and sometimes a little fluff.
I wont the first 2 months though, but anything that keeps me going longer deserves to get payed. Support what you like so the good stuff gets funded.
I have the same opinion about music, if I like something I go to the liveshows and buy a T-shirt. No CDs though, that mostly supports the record companies while the band gets a lot more from T-shirt and concerts.
Just vote with your money. If you love something but never pay anything you don't really have the right to complain if they change it or close it down.
Nah .. there is free speech in this country. You always have the right to whine, but the devs have the right to ignore you.
Where do you get that? All i read is how happy devs are when F2P is bringing in more money. They wouldn't mind some playing their game for free, as long as the whales bring in more money than subs.
No.... but I don't spend a minute in any F2P game.
Would I feel guilty? Maybe, but probably because I knew I was contributing to the destruction of quality video games by playing them, not because I wasn't paying for it.
Because whales are doing that just fine, and there are more important things to spend money on than F2P MMOs?
Then pray explain what you meant by 'Morally aware' if not to disassociate yourself from those opposite of that?
I don't assume anything, i go with what is there. If you wish not to be called out on something, define it better then there wouldn't be any misunderstandings. I can respect one's point of view even if i don't agree with it. Just be concise.
My 'problem' is seeing people seemingly present themselves or their ideals as the only viable way to be. The world is too diverse to be have only one way of being, thinking, acting. If that's really what you weren't doing then of course I apologize. Understand though that it can be construed as such.
I'm not bitter. I love a good discussion, so long as it doesn't degrade into squabbles and condescension.