[Poll]Would you like to have human-like AI in your mmo's npcs?

maccarthur2004

I am talking about a AI that would allow the npcs (monsters, mobs, etc)  do EVERYTHING that a human would do. That would include chase and "farm" players, make ambushs, try to fight only if in advantage (numerical, level, gear, position, etc), go mainly after weaker players if needed to "farm" something, fight like a real human (retreating, dodging, running around, kitting, fleeing to "safe places", calling help, commit suicide to avoid granting any bonus to players (a political strategy to help dissuade new attacks), to hide of players, change locations to avoid becoming targets all the time, and so on.

I separated the poll options by OW PVP prefferences only because i am curious to see how each kind of player would receive a feature like that.

 

iixviiiix

we have to wait for decades or a century before we can have human level AI

insects level AI are like a dream for MMO's monster , around Ant or bee level are miracle .

 

 

jesad

Originally posted by iixviiiix

we have to wait for decades or a century before we can have human level AI

insects level AI are like a dream for MMO's monster , around Ant or bee level are miracle .

 

 

I don't know if that's true.  Pretty much the OP just summed up most of the "I" in current human MMO A.I. and that's bottom feeding.  It doesn't take a genius intellect to do that, as a matter of fact I just ate a dozen of crabs this morning and for the life of me I couldn't tell where the brains actually were, and they seem to bottom feed pretty well.

Also I didn't answer the poll because it didn't define whether the ow pvp would have laws or not.  And the structure of law is the only thing, to me, that can make ow pvp actually work.  Anything less is just a shooter pretending to be an mmo.  And since there is nothing really forcing someone to play a game where people are just going to senselessly attack them without consequence, on site, just because they are weaker, there is no reason that someone would continue to log into a game where the AI is going to join in on the fun as well.

DamonVile

I guess if they scaled the computer down to have human like reaction times it might be playable.

 

maccarthur2004

Originally posted by jesad

Also I didn't answer the poll because it didn't define whether the ow pvp would have laws or not.

Isn't about PVP, but PVE (the poll speaks abut npcs*).

 

*No player characters.

 

 

 

waynejr2

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by jesad

Also I didn't answer the poll because it didn't define whether the ow pvp would have laws or not.

Isn't about PVP, but PVE (the poll speaks abut npcs*).

 

*No player characters.

 

 

 

 Your poll included the letters PVP in each option. Excuse people for seeing those letters then writing about it.

 

maccarthur2004

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by jesad

Also I didn't answer the poll because it didn't define whether the ow pvp would have laws or not.

Isn't about PVP, but PVE (the poll speaks abut npcs*).

 

*No player characters.

 

 

 

 Your poll included the letters PVP in each option. Excuse people for seeing those letters then writing about it.

 

Read the last paragraph of the first post.

 

 

whisperwynd

 I think if the technology could permit it, it could change the world we play in. Making it seem more 'alive'. All depends on well the AI is programmed. 

Loktofeit

Originally posted by iixviiiix

we have to wait for decades or a century before we can have human level AI

Not really. It isn't missing because they can't do it, it's missing because players don't want it. It would frustrate the crap out of half the playerbase and kick the ass of the other half. 

• Some basic rules they could follow that would require minimal processing
• If helath is low, then run away or, better yet, recall out.
• If PC is fighting mob and low on health, attack PC.
• If mob next to me is getting attacked, jump in to help.
• If we have buddies around, call them all into battle to kick the PC's ass.
• The tank is harmless. Ignore him. Kill the support and damage dealer. (After the rest of the PCs are dead, remaining mobs do a point and laugh emote at the tank and then walk away.)
• Loot dead PCs

These are extremely basic rules. Even something as basic as this would turn most MMO gamers on their head.

 

 

Roguewiz

More interactive NPCs with a smarter AI sure.  Mobs that adjust tactics instead of a pre-determined script that we all know, definitely.  However, I stop short at human-like.  The reasoning is more selfish than anything:  computers process data faster than humans and can react quicker than we can.  I won't necessary call it unfair, but you'd have to wonder if the coding for the AI is capable of reading the algorithm for your character in such a way that it can re-act to your spells or abilities before they actually register as "being cast/used".

Edit: 

Also, I do like FFA PVP, but there needs to be rules or guidelines in place to prevent griefing.  While it is a PVP game, griefing can cause people to quit, which is a loss in incoming money.

chaos824

who wouldn't want that? If  anyone can make it that would be considered a major technological breakthrough and we are nowhere near.

 

TheLizardbones

The system as described wouldn't be workable. The things described can work in a FFA PvP game because there is a human on the other side of the avatar. Alliances are possible, as well as a 'live and let live, at least for now' approach to things. Not to mention the fact that human players will log out and go to sleep.

The system's AI would never sleep, would endlessly respawn and would never 'live and let live, at least for now'. It might be fun to some people, but it would be incredibly brutal. New players would stand no chance, especially if the mobs started to group up because all of the low level players were right there.

So, I voted no. Also, I enjoy a bit of FFA PvP and Open World PvP.

nariusseldon

is being ganked by NPCs more fun than being ganked by humans? I don't think so.

Count me out.

Kyleran

There's a reason why most people don't play open world PVP games. This would make it worse by improving on the intelligence of the opponent.

Gravarg

No, because if they had human-like AI, they'd all cheat...You think ddosing is bad now...let's let the NPCs, that are on the server be able to do it...no way.

 

NPC is dying

Uses Mega-lag spike ability

after 5 seconds of freezing, you end up dead....

 

I want to play

Loktofeit

Originally posted by Gravarg

No, because if they had human-like AI, they'd all cheat...You think ddosing is bad now...let's let the NPCs, that are on the server be able to do it...no way.

 

NPC is dying

Uses Mega-lag spike ability

after 5 seconds of freezing, you end up dead....

 

I want to play

 

LOL!

"Hey, why are all the shop keepers trading stuff across that server boundary?"

 

bcbully

Age of Wushu does this right now today. Players play the roll of NPC mobs in instances, and also escort. Instead of summoning NPC adds, a boss summons players. Instead of bandit NPCs, they are players. I bet a lot of people didn't know that 

 

Wushu, wushu, wushu.

 

edit- Oh you said human like AI. Humans are about as close as you can get I see where your going though.

Rydeson

     The capability of smart AI's is there, but the devs have to make sure to not alienate too many customers for making the game too difficult..  I would like to see more of a mix of both smart and dumb AI's..  For 90% of the open world trash mobs, I'm ok with dumb AI.. (especially if animal).. Now once we get to NPC's, I would like to see a better AI in where mobs will stay range if they are squishy's.. I would like to see NPC's target the person who is healing, if any.. If someone drops to below 50% health, that should increase their rank on the agro list..  And more NPC's should have more skills equal to that of players, like slow movement, etc etc.. I definitely miss the days where weak mobs would retreat and run if possible to get away..  I hope you have some root or slowing ability before the mob runs and agro's others.. LOL

Quazal.A

Suggest you look at EvE and the rats in the Wormholes, whilst NO MMO WILL EVER have human like AI

The sleepers (the rats in wormholes) will do things like change damage types / Change who their attacking / even offer each other reps depending on who getting attacked

So this is in game but in very limited state, and to be honest wont change much for a very long time.

KBishop

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by iixviiiix

we have to wait for decades or a century before we can have human level AI

Not really. It isn't missing because they can't do it, it's missing because players don't want it. It would frustrate the crap out of half the playerbase and kick the ass of the other half. 

• Some basic rules they could follow that would require minimal processing
• If helath is low, then run away or, better yet, recall out.
• If PC is fighting mob and low on health, attack PC.
• If mob next to me is getting attacked, jump in to help.
• If we have buddies around, call them all into battle to kick the PC's ass.
• The tank is harmless. Ignore him. Kill the support and damage dealer. (After the rest of the PCs are dead, remaining mobs do a point and laugh emote at the tank and then walk away.)
• Loot dead PCs

These are extremely basic rules. Even something as basic as this would turn most MMO gamers on their head.

 

 

no, it's missing because it can't be done, and in fact really hasn't been done by even the most powerful computers.

Human AI means something that learns, something that has choice, something that does things without being instructed, etc.

Every AI we could make is really ONLY consisting of either a Cause and Effect relationship or a predesignated instruction.

You could argue that "A character that gets mad and behaves different'y is like giving them human emotions" except not really. Humans change. A single person will react differently over time to the same thing. A human will justify their emotions. If you say bad things to an NPC, you could give them a desired response and a parameter of responses, but a human will have different responses with different degrees which are impacted by different reasons.

I know I am not good at articulating why it can't be done now, but it's not done simply because it simply cant be done.

 

BadSpock

This is how MMO games are designed (in a perfect world):

 

PvE is designed for the player to win. Even the absolute hardest modes HAVE to be beatable. How easy or hard it is and how long or difficult it is for the player to win is dependent on a lot of factors, but generally speaking - PvE is designed for the player to win.

Perfectly balanced PvP you win/lose right around 50% of the time - that is if skill and other factors are equal. In truly perfectly balanced PvP, better players win more than 50% of the time dependent on their skill, worse players may win less than 50% of the time.

 

Human-like AI would really screw up the "winning" rates for PvE.

Some humans are bad players, so PvE might be too easy, some players are very good and the "winning" rates for PvE would be near 0-1%.

Some players would appreciate the added challenge of similarly-minded opponents - even in traditional PvE settings.

For most, however, probably the VAST majority of the MMO market, they LIKE that true competition is reserved for the PvE side of the game and PvE is more about just learning and practicing how to win with almost guaranteed victory if you play well enough/prepare well enough etc.

 

Wizardry

If you had exact Human reaction the game would be boring,i guess sort of like pvp boring.So answer is no.

If i was playing a human it would be so simple,i attack then when dmg is too high the enemy heals itself or runs for cover.

A really poor AI is of course not good either,you need some good choices in the AI along with some randomness.

I don't like anything automatic because it looks even more like computer script that i can predict even easier.

You can NEVER imitate REAL human behavior because a SMART human would try to deceive you and change it's habits to be unpredictable.

Ozivois

Haha, if AI was programmed like that, all of the mobs would be massed in raid formation at each port-in a rezz point and then zerg everything that came near them.

That can easily be programmed into an AI.  Doesn't take that much brain power, or code for that matter, to be a griefer...

BadSpock

Originally posted by KBishop

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by iixviiiix

we have to wait for decades or a century before we can have human level AI

Not really. It isn't missing because they can't do it, it's missing because players don't want it. It would frustrate the crap out of half the playerbase and kick the ass of the other half. 

• Some basic rules they could follow that would require minimal processing
• If helath is low, then run away or, better yet, recall out.
• If PC is fighting mob and low on health, attack PC.
• If mob next to me is getting attacked, jump in to help.
• If we have buddies around, call them all into battle to kick the PC's ass.
• The tank is harmless. Ignore him. Kill the support and damage dealer. (After the rest of the PCs are dead, remaining mobs do a point and laugh emote at the tank and then walk away.)
• Loot dead PCs

These are extremely basic rules. Even something as basic as this would turn most MMO gamers on their head.

no, it's missing because it can't be done, and in fact really hasn't been done by even the most powerful computers.

Human AI means something that learns, something that has choice, something that does things without being instructed, etc.

Every AI we could make is really ONLY consisting of either a Cause and Effect relationship or a predesignated instruction.

You could argue that "A character that gets mad and behaves different'y is like giving them human emotions" except not really. Humans change. A single person will react differently over time to the same thing. A human will justify their emotions. If you say bad things to an NPC, you could give them a desired response and a parameter of responses, but a human will have different responses with different degrees which are impacted by different reasons.

I know I am not good at articulating why it can't be done now, but it's not done simply because it simply cant be done.

Yeah, a NPC can't decide to strip all their gear and /dance at a player character or other NPC that is getting it's ass handed to it without being programmed, very specifically, to do those EXACT actions under the EXACT circumstances that trigger that response.

I've always thought it'd be cool to program AI with build in "human like" stupidity though.

Like, an NPC could be programmed to have a 20% chance to attack a higher level player, 80% chance to try and run/hide. Then they could be programmed to try and retreat from combat at certain health % at a more percentage based  chance rather than like "at 30% health mob tries to flee." Instead, have like a 10% chance to flee at 90% health if player health is over 90%..

etc. etc. more complex if/then causal rules.

More complex then your basic "if player is level X, aggro range = Y" that we see everywhere. NPCs that fight hopeless battles to the last, etc.

But, would that then double, triple, quadruple the processing requirements of the AI? I'm not a programmer, but I imagine as you add more lines of code, more possible options, increase the complexity, the processing requirements go up too.

Nadia

Originally posted by KBishop

no, it's missing because it can't be done, and in fact really hasn't been done by even the most powerful computers.

Human AI means something that learns, something that has choice, something that does things without being instructed, etc.

related infographic -- not quite the same thing but related

http://www.xkcd.com/1002/

whisperwynd

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by KBishop

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by iixviiiix

we have to wait for decades or a century before we can have human level AI

Not really. It isn't missing because they can't do it, it's missing because players don't want it. It would frustrate the crap out of half the playerbase and kick the ass of the other half. 

• Some basic rules they could follow that would require minimal processing
• If helath is low, then run away or, better yet, recall out.
• If PC is fighting mob and low on health, attack PC.
• If mob next to me is getting attacked, jump in to help.
• If we have buddies around, call them all into battle to kick the PC's ass.
• The tank is harmless. Ignore him. Kill the support and damage dealer. (After the rest of the PCs are dead, remaining mobs do a point and laugh emote at the tank and then walk away.)
• Loot dead PCs

These are extremely basic rules. Even something as basic as this would turn most MMO gamers on their head.

no, it's missing because it can't be done, and in fact really hasn't been done by even the most powerful computers.

Human AI means something that learns, something that has choice, something that does things without being instructed, etc.

Every AI we could make is really ONLY consisting of either a Cause and Effect relationship or a predesignated instruction.

You could argue that "A character that gets mad and behaves different'y is like giving them human emotions" except not really. Humans change. A single person will react differently over time to the same thing. A human will justify their emotions. If you say bad things to an NPC, you could give them a desired response and a parameter of responses, but a human will have different responses with different degrees which are impacted by different reasons.

I know I am not good at articulating why it can't be done now, but it's not done simply because it simply cant be done.

Yeah, a NPC can't decide to strip all their gear and /dance at a player character or other NPC that is getting it's ass handed to it without being programmed, very specifically, to do those EXACT actions under the EXACT circumstances that trigger that response.

I've always thought it'd be cool to program AI with build in "human like" stupidity though.

Like, an NPC could be programmed to have a 20% chance to attack a higher level player, 80% chance to try and run/hide. Then they could be programmed to try and retreat from combat at certain health % at a more percentage based  chance rather than like "at 30% health mob tries to flee." Instead, have like a 10% chance to flee at 90% health if player health is over 90%..

etc. etc. more complex if/then causal rules.

More complex then your basic "if player is level X, aggro range = Y" that we see everywhere. NPCs that fight hopeless battles to the last, etc.

But, would that then double, triple, quadruple the processing requirements of the AI? I'm not a programmer, but I imagine as you add more lines of code, more possible options, increase the complexity, the processing requirements go up too.

While I agree the technology is nowhere near there, a real AI program would not be lines of code but algorithms to use to decide. The simple thing to do is make those decisions be limited to what you as a dev want from them.

We have guards in games now rushing to help you if attacked. What's to say one day they just don't and laugh? Or give you pointers? Healing mobs could have the amount they can heal limited and have the fight or flight preset activated.

It doesn't necessarily mean they do whatever they wish and think for themselves, science doubts we'll reach that for another 20 yrs minimum.