EQ had some cool mob AI. If low on health would run away (had to root or snare) or -They would not only escape but would bring back some help from other areas causing a mini-train sometimes.
You can NEVER imitate REAL human behavior because a SMART human would try to deceive you and change it's habits to be unpredictable.
You could program an NPC/mob to be unpredictable. Just give it 100's or more of options that randomly change. Every time you fought/interacted with it different combinations of actions or reactions would happen. It might make it too hard for some PC's or take too much effort/coding or whatever (I'm not a programming guy), but if they wanted too they could make an endless amount of options. You could even program mob's to react to changes in PC's behavior/tactics.
Originally posted by ropenice EQ had some cool mob AI. If low on health would run away (had to root or snare) or -They would not only escape but would bring back some help from other areas causing a mini-train sometimes.
And it all had to be toned down for the sake of gameplay, which brings back the point - players don't want smarter NPCs, it would make the gameplay impossible as EQ1 showed (when healer mobs would heal assist til mana ran out).
True, the healing one was too much but other mob tactic were manageable and made the fights more exciting. It never bothered me when a fleeing mob resisted my ranger's root and got us wiped. It added to the experience, but I could see many of the newer generation, used to the easier wash and rinse cycle of fighting, not liking it. I never saw people complain about things like that in EQ (except the heals). Mostly people would laugh it off, reset and jump back in.
Originally posted by ropenice EQ had some cool mob AI. If low on health would run away (had to root or snare) or -They would not only escape but would bring back some help from other areas causing a mini-train sometimes.
And it all had to be toned down for the sake of gameplay, which brings back the point - players don't want smarter NPCs, it would make the gameplay impossible as EQ1 showed (when healer mobs would heal assist til mana ran out).
Here is another example. WOW already tried very human like NPCs in the faction champion encounter back in tier 9 WOTLK. (I have posted this example before).
The NPCs use class skills, ignore tank and go after mage/healers first, and heal, cc and do all sort of "human stuff". What happened? Heavy QQing, and the encounter is nerfed. The same approach is never tried again.
Moral of the story ... players don't really want smarter NPCs. They want encounter patterns they can learn and beat.
Originally posted by Betaguy Seems very Barbaric, do they have any good traits besides farm the player base? Curious...
From your viewpoint is barbaric npcs farm humans, but they would be only doing the same thing humans do to them all the time. Indeed they would only do the things needed to acomplish their "objectives" , which can be progress, territory domain, farm some itens, do "terrorist acts" against humans (the evil ones) or merely survive.
Bottom line, I would like to have a more complex interaction with all npcs, whether fighting, talking, etc. DDO, for all it's faults, had very tough quests on elite setting (or was it expert?)-traps that could wipe party, puzzles, things to figure out how to complete the quests, etc- but always at least one person in party that had run the quest a million times and would ruin the surprises by telling you everything before it happened. I would rather die multiple times until I figured it out than lose the excitement of the unknown. So until they can develop truly random content, so something different happens every time, or AI reacts differently each fight, then it will always get routine. They need a random quest generator so every one is new. U could go to the same NPC to get the same results (find treasure/item, rescue princess, etc but locations, mobs, traps, etc would be diff and random for each PC. I suppose it will be a while before that is possible, but I don't see any real advancement until they do.
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
Or you are just perceiving it that way to justify your own view of pvp and you can't just understand that people have their own viewpoints on what they like and dislike? There are many different reasons that people like or dislike pvp. For some it might be that they don't like the difficulty, but others don't have the time to put in to be competitive, or they just like pvp better, or many other reasons. For myself, I don't like games that there is no reason to pvp. I pvp'd on AoC, but grew bored because there was no point to it. It didn't change anything (as well as much of the pvp system they promised was missing at launch), so it was boring fighting the 80 level guys that camped the respawn point to kill people respawning with low hp, or running through noob zones one-shotting people (which happened because they didnt have any system in place for pvp. And most games seem to suffer from this.
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
do they actually need to justify what they want ? I mean from what people say on these forums about ow ffa pvp you've got to be missing something in real life to need it so badly in games....but do you really need to justify why you want it so much ? Or is " that's what I consider fun " good enough ?
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
do they actually need to justify what they want ? I mean from what people say on these forums about ow ffa pvp you've got to be missing something in real life to need it so badly in games....but do you really need to justify why you want it so much ? Or is " that's what I consider fun " good enough ?
Excluding parents who play with their children everyone who plays video games is missing something in their lives even if it isn't a concious thing. We all go to games seeking one type or another of validation.
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
HumanoidAI may not be possible for many years to come, but clever programming can create reasonable facsimiles of intelligence. In Ryzom predators would attack some things and leave others alone, this was done with a simple move speed check, if the predator was faster than the prey then they would chase and attack the prey, if the prey was faster than the predator it was ignored. This produced some fascinating wildlife interactions in the game. Clever programming can achieve much.
Originally posted by DamonVile I guess if they scaled the computer down to have human like reaction times it might be playable.
Well said.
I have been replaying Star Wars: Jedi Knight Academy and getting my butt kicked by an AI that can do maneuvers I have trouble doing. It uses its force powers with ease where with me it is not an automatic keystroke.
Human AI also make mistakes. It will miss. It will hit a wrong key. It will not have perfect timing every time.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
I wasn't aware anyone *had* to justify themselves to you.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
I wasn't aware anyone *had* to justify themselves to you.
Sadly you failed. There are more people who dislike FFA PvP and who would like human like AI than people who like FFA PvP and would like human like AI.
A little correction: from the poll, 92% of the "ow ffa pvpers" and 50% of the "pvers" would like human-like AI.
In the remainder, no significant discordances. Carry on.
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
Well, I'm glad you finally decided to post the motive for this thread.
"Oooh! PvEers just want things easy mode! I knew it all along!"
Why would changing the experience from people doing the ganking to the AI doing the ganking make the experience any better? The experience doesn't change. In fact, it gets worse because the AI would probably be a lot better and a lot more consistent with stacking the odds. This is something developers mention periodically. They can crank up the challenge and the intelligence of the mobs at any time, to the point that nobody would stand a chance. That's not usually the point of the whole game though, so they don't do that.
Why do you assume that "challenge" means things must be setup the way you've outlined them in your OP? Raids can be very challenging and time consuming, but they aren't anything like what you've described in your OP. Instanced PvP can be very challenging as well, but it's nothing like what you've described in your OP.
Your conclusion is just wrong. "PvEers" just prefer a different style of play. It's possible they don't want a challenge, but you can't really conclude that from your OP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That is actually really interesting. I would love to check in on that.
There are still matters of things like choice, mistakes, different personalities, etc. These computers, while extremely advanced, are limited to cause and effect relationships AKA if x happens than do y. While that absolutely have a large number of variables, the fact is (to my knowledge, I don't know the extent of these computers) none of them will do something entirely on their own without any outside intervention.
However, those would definitely suffice for an MMORPG and would definitely be awesome/interesting to see
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
do they actually need to justify what they want ? I mean from what people say on these forums about ow ffa pvp you've got to be missing something in real life to need it so badly in games....but do you really need to justify why you want it so much ? Or is " that's what I consider fun " good enough ?
Excluding parents who play with their children everyone who plays video games is missing something in their lives even if it isn't a concious thing. We all go to games seeking one type or another of validation.
This type of rationalization is just asinine.
I can easily change your statement to:
Excluding parents who work with their children everyone who works on cars is missing something in their lives even if it isn't a concious thing. We all go to garages seeking one type or another of validation.
I will never understand why so many gamers have so much disdain for their own hobby. Yes there are some that are a bit obsessive but this is NO different than ANY other hobby. You have those that pour way too much time in and you have those that understand and achieve balance with other hobbies and/or life.
You have effectively been brain-washed by society, your friends, family, etc.. to believe that your hobby isn't a valid one.
I love fitness and workout quite a bit, ironically no one ever comments on how it's a waste of my time or how it's not a valid hobby, in fact quite often I get praise. Why would this be different than any other hobby? Because of the readily apparent results? What about the actual benefits of gaming, hand-eye coordination, critical thinking, planning and coordination? It's pitiful to me how many gamers are convinced what they're doing is wrong....get a clue.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I think it would be very interesting to see this level of intelligence in AI but I don't think it would fit in with standard MMO's of today.
Meaning this wouldn't work in the sense of lets go farm some mobs. It would become to annoying and difficult.
Maybe difficulty is what your aiming for?
Now changing the way MMO's work fitting more into reality would make this seem pretty bad ass.
Instead of mindlessly killing things, there would be a point to every action. If some player killed random villager A or Bandit A then said player would become an outlaw or wanted by that gangs fellow members and would seek to bring him in.
You would have to remove levels I honestly believe cause questing would become a much more visceral experience. Adding more factors like hunger and making sure goods were transported safely would become a prime factor for survival.
Maybe you want to live on the shady side and rob said caravans and plunder villages? The AI would react accordingly and add more guards to its transports. It all sounds very interesting.
I honestly believe the way we perceive MMOs would have to change. Killing a fellow NPC/PC would have dire consequences depending on which side of the law you were on. Guess what im saying is that this works better in Sandbox terms then it would in Themeparks.
Even then not sure if Sandboxes would be what I would call this type of MMO.
I think it would be very interesting to see this level of intelligence in AI but I don't think it would fit in with standard MMO's of today.
Meaning this wouldn't work in the sense of lets go farm some mobs. It would become to annoying and difficult.
Maybe difficulty is what your aiming for?
Now changing the way MMO's work fitting more into reality would make this seem pretty bad ass.
Instead of mindlessly killing things, there would be a point to every action. If some player killed random villager A or Bandit A then said player would become an outlaw or wanted by that gangs fellow members and would seek to bring him in.
You would have to remove levels I honestly believe cause questing would become a much more visceral experience. Adding more factors like hunger and making sure goods were transported safely would become a prime factor for survival.
Maybe you want to live on the shady side and rob said caravans and plunder villages? The AI would react accordingly and add more guards to its transports. It all sounds very interesting.
I honestly believe the way we perceive MMOs would have to change. Killing a fellow NPC/PC would have dire consequences depending on which side of the law you were on. Guess what im saying is that this works better in Sandbox terms then it would in Themeparks.
Even then not sure if Sandboxes would be what I would call this type of MMO.
I think this needs to be the future. Doesn't just have to be pure Sandbox, could still have stories to tell with quests, but as a part of the world.
To have this type of AI, the world would have to be able to stand on it's own. Meaning there would be an existing political landscape with NPC's doing everything needed to create a virtual world. From leaders fighting over land and property to tax collection. Harvesting the land for resources, protecting and trading these resources. Enemies fighting each other and so on. Basically anything that would be done by Humans in this created world. Including basics like a sleep cycle, waking up and having breakfast, going about your day, going back home, having dinner and going back to sleep.
Then we the player would be dropped into this world to chose where to fit in. Eventually fighting the NPC's for control and banding together if we want to take over the world or joining the NPC's to fight against other NPC's. Or just becoming a guard for NPC's and live under their protection. Basically having many choices to interact with the NPC's as we wish.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Comments
You could program an NPC/mob to be unpredictable. Just give it 100's or more of options that randomly change. Every time you fought/interacted with it different combinations of actions or reactions would happen. It might make it too hard for some PC's or take too much effort/coding or whatever (I'm not a programming guy), but if they wanted too they could make an endless amount of options. You could even program mob's to react to changes in PC's behavior/tactics.
True, the healing one was too much but other mob tactic were manageable and made the fights more exciting. It never bothered me when a fleeing mob resisted my ranger's root and got us wiped. It added to the experience, but I could see many of the newer generation, used to the easier wash and rinse cycle of fighting, not liking it. I never saw people complain about things like that in EQ (except the heals). Mostly people would laugh it off, reset and jump back in.
Here is another example. WOW already tried very human like NPCs in the faction champion encounter back in tier 9 WOTLK. (I have posted this example before).
The NPCs use class skills, ignore tank and go after mage/healers first, and heal, cc and do all sort of "human stuff". What happened? Heavy QQing, and the encounter is nerfed. The same approach is never tried again.
Moral of the story ... players don't really want smarter NPCs. They want encounter patterns they can learn and beat.
From your viewpoint is barbaric npcs farm humans, but they would be only doing the same thing humans do to them all the time. Indeed they would only do the things needed to acomplish their "objectives" , which can be progress, territory domain, farm some itens, do "terrorist acts" against humans (the evil ones) or merely survive.
From what some people said in this thread, they unconsciously states that pvers dislike ow ffa pvp merely because the bigger difficulty, but they dont admit it and create several other excuses to "justify" their distaste.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Or you are just perceiving it that way to justify your own view of pvp and you can't just understand that people have their own viewpoints on what they like and dislike? There are many different reasons that people like or dislike pvp. For some it might be that they don't like the difficulty, but others don't have the time to put in to be competitive, or they just like pvp better, or many other reasons. For myself, I don't like games that there is no reason to pvp. I pvp'd on AoC, but grew bored because there was no point to it. It didn't change anything (as well as much of the pvp system they promised was missing at launch), so it was boring fighting the 80 level guys that camped the respawn point to kill people respawning with low hp, or running through noob zones one-shotting people (which happened because they didnt have any system in place for pvp. And most games seem to suffer from this.
I would have to agree
do they actually need to justify what they want ? I mean from what people say on these forums about ow ffa pvp you've got to be missing something in real life to need it so badly in games....but do you really need to justify why you want it so much ? Or is " that's what I consider fun " good enough ?
Excluding parents who play with their children everyone who plays video games is missing something in their lives even if it isn't a concious thing. We all go to games seeking one type or another of validation.
As if one needs to justify taste.
Do i need a reason to hate wearing pink?
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
I have been replaying Star Wars: Jedi Knight Academy and getting my butt kicked by an AI that can do maneuvers I have trouble doing. It uses its force powers with ease where with me it is not an automatic keystroke.
Human AI also make mistakes. It will miss. It will hit a wrong key. It will not have perfect timing every time.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Neither me.
A little correction: from the poll, 92% of the "ow ffa pvpers" and 50% of the "pvers" would like human-like AI.
In the remainder, no significant discordances. Carry on.
Well, I'm glad you finally decided to post the motive for this thread.
"Oooh! PvEers just want things easy mode! I knew it all along!"
Why would changing the experience from people doing the ganking to the AI doing the ganking make the experience any better? The experience doesn't change. In fact, it gets worse because the AI would probably be a lot better and a lot more consistent with stacking the odds. This is something developers mention periodically. They can crank up the challenge and the intelligence of the mobs at any time, to the point that nobody would stand a chance. That's not usually the point of the whole game though, so they don't do that.
Why do you assume that "challenge" means things must be setup the way you've outlined them in your OP? Raids can be very challenging and time consuming, but they aren't anything like what you've described in your OP. Instanced PvP can be very challenging as well, but it's nothing like what you've described in your OP.
Your conclusion is just wrong. "PvEers" just prefer a different style of play. It's possible they don't want a challenge, but you can't really conclude that from your OP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Had to vote no because human AI which actually does EVERYTHING a human would do would be horrible.
I don't want to be camped by a higher level player for 4 hours, why would I want a higher level mob to stand on top of my corpse for 4 hours?
I hate it when players exploit the game environment so that they can't get hit while killing everyone around them, why would I want a mob to do that?
That is actually really interesting. I would love to check in on that.
There are still matters of things like choice, mistakes, different personalities, etc. These computers, while extremely advanced, are limited to cause and effect relationships AKA if x happens than do y. While that absolutely have a large number of variables, the fact is (to my knowledge, I don't know the extent of these computers) none of them will do something entirely on their own without any outside intervention.
However, those would definitely suffice for an MMORPG and would definitely be awesome/interesting to see
This type of rationalization is just asinine.
I can easily change your statement to:
Excluding parents who work with their children everyone who works on cars is missing something in their lives even if it isn't a concious thing. We all go to garages seeking one type or another of validation.
I will never understand why so many gamers have so much disdain for their own hobby. Yes there are some that are a bit obsessive but this is NO different than ANY other hobby. You have those that pour way too much time in and you have those that understand and achieve balance with other hobbies and/or life.
You have effectively been brain-washed by society, your friends, family, etc.. to believe that your hobby isn't a valid one.
I love fitness and workout quite a bit, ironically no one ever comments on how it's a waste of my time or how it's not a valid hobby, in fact quite often I get praise. Why would this be different than any other hobby? Because of the readily apparent results? What about the actual benefits of gaming, hand-eye coordination, critical thinking, planning and coordination? It's pitiful to me how many gamers are convinced what they're doing is wrong....get a clue.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I think it would be very interesting to see this level of intelligence in AI but I don't think it would fit in with standard MMO's of today.
Meaning this wouldn't work in the sense of lets go farm some mobs. It would become to annoying and difficult.
Maybe difficulty is what your aiming for?
Now changing the way MMO's work fitting more into reality would make this seem pretty bad ass.
Instead of mindlessly killing things, there would be a point to every action. If some player killed random villager A or Bandit A then said player would become an outlaw or wanted by that gangs fellow members and would seek to bring him in.
You would have to remove levels I honestly believe cause questing would become a much more visceral experience. Adding more factors like hunger and making sure goods were transported safely would become a prime factor for survival.
Maybe you want to live on the shady side and rob said caravans and plunder villages? The AI would react accordingly and add more guards to its transports. It all sounds very interesting.
I honestly believe the way we perceive MMOs would have to change. Killing a fellow NPC/PC would have dire consequences depending on which side of the law you were on. Guess what im saying is that this works better in Sandbox terms then it would in Themeparks.
Even then not sure if Sandboxes would be what I would call this type of MMO.
MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!
I think this needs to be the future. Doesn't just have to be pure Sandbox, could still have stories to tell with quests, but as a part of the world.
To have this type of AI, the world would have to be able to stand on it's own. Meaning there would be an existing political landscape with NPC's doing everything needed to create a virtual world. From leaders fighting over land and property to tax collection. Harvesting the land for resources, protecting and trading these resources. Enemies fighting each other and so on. Basically anything that would be done by Humans in this created world. Including basics like a sleep cycle, waking up and having breakfast, going about your day, going back home, having dinner and going back to sleep.
Then we the player would be dropped into this world to chose where to fit in. Eventually fighting the NPC's for control and banding together if we want to take over the world or joining the NPC's to fight against other NPC's. Or just becoming a guard for NPC's and live under their protection. Basically having many choices to interact with the NPC's as we wish.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore