I think its a mistake to believe Square can sit around and wait for the subs to dig them out of the hole this money pit has cost them.
There is without a doubt a sub number goal they need to reach and maintain (outside the one they told the public) to be viable.
However the odds are against them holding a large sub base over the long term.
1. Tons of competition with little to no entry barrier.
2. Old school features and other oddities.
3. FF world but otherwise bland been there done that game play.
4. Slow starting game(combat) that doesn't begin to pay off until higher level.
Keep in mind I am talking about the casual majority. I don't think the number of true mmo'ers. The ones who marry a game and stick with it have grown all that much and are not enough to erase the debt this game has cost.
Plus it all ready has payment tiers. It seems set up to go hybrid at a later date.
While I would like to have a subscription OPTION for the MMORPG I like,
I believe that not one NEW MMORPG can succeed in the WESTERN market if it is ONLY subscription based.
I played FFXIV beta, and I'll agree it's very well done, it is not really interesting for me. While I can see solid amount of people playing it with subscription, I don't see it being a success (in the west). Not really that different from others.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
I don't agree with your assessment that people play free to cap and then will sub and whatnot to me this shows me your lack of understanding and experience with f2p mmo.
Usually once at endgame most of your spending is done, it's on the journey to endgame and getting ready for it, which is part of the journey, that people spend.
You seem to think because there is a trend in the marketplace everyone MUST follow this trend or die which is not at all how markets work. You then contradict yourself talking about niche markets but seem to want to exclude that p2p could be a niche market if worse comes to worse.
Tell me there was a trend some years back where leasing cars was the "fad of the times" or trend if you will and yet people still actually "bought" cars.
Take asian markets, korean markets, chinese markets, japanese markets are you going to tell me they all follow the same trends?
Nonsense!
You keep saying SE "will be forced" to go f2p? I ask you be forced by who, they are a big big company that has been around a long long time, they don't have to do jack if they don't want to, add to the fact it is a japanese company that is obviously very traditional in how it is run.
Look at the videos ans see how they interact with each other, this company has said it will not go f2p and for them to go back on that would make the company lose face. Hell I think much of the redoing 1.0 was to
A. deliver on promises they made
B not to lose face
c keep their fans happy
They are what they are because of their fans and I think they know this. I don't think they view us as sheep to shear but clients to satisfy. Which in my book is a huge difference between f2p game and p2p ones even though there are some exceptions here and there.
I find it mind boggling how f2p games and it's devious marketing tactics are conning and almost conditioning peoples minds that it's the cheaper better way to go lol.
Wake up Sheeps!!!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
When will you get it through your thick skull. FFXIV will not be going F2P period. They are find taking a year or more to make money back on their investment. They do not have investors to pay back like every other game that went F2P. The F2P model is a FAD and will go a way in 2 to 3 years when more publishers close down games because they were not making money on the F2P model.
Why do people have to get upset and attack when people are just talking about a subject? No thick skull here, just having a nice talk on a hot topic on just about every forum for just about every MMO. You dont want to take part move on. Im not asking for F2P, just talking about the market and "If" FF14 will be forced to conform. I think they will, you dont agree with me tell me why. I am glad to share my thoughts with you on why I think it will be and happy to hear yours.
You do have a Thick skull if you think the US MARKET will make JAPAN'S MARKET to conform. Sorry it does not work that way. FFXIV has enough JP subscriptions alone to support the game without the US market.
Again no reason to use insults. I will work with what you gave me. When business move into new markets they often conform to the local demands so they can make the most money they can. How is FF14 any different? If X model generates the most money and everyone moves to that model, how does this exclude this game? It cost them money to host US servers, to translate the game in English. If and I say if this becomes the common trend here, why would this exclude FF14?
In his own crude way the previous poster is correct....to a point. SE is a software company like no other doing MMOs. Their core market is Japan which, again, is like no other market. Remember, when all is said and done SE is primarily a single player console based gaming company. The vast majority of their revenus are derived from these games. Despite recent setback they continue to have sufficient cash on hand to maintain a number of of projects under development and have a number of releases scheduled in the next 12 months. As such SE still has the freedom of deciding their business model on what their core market will support. As such how other developers or markets proceed is a secondary consideration to them. Yes they want a global market but not at the expense of their core market. So as long as SE feels that they will continue to support subs then they will proceed with P2P and the Japanese market shows no indications of embracing F2P that I can see. So as much fun as it has been to read that back and forth from both sides of the issue it does not pertain to SE and ARR.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
I don't agree with your assessment that people play free to cap and then will sub and whatnot to me this shows me your lack of understanding and experience with f2p mmo.
Usually once at endgame most of your spending is done, it's on the journey to endgame and getting ready for it, which is part of the journey, that people spend.
You seem to think because there is a trend in the marketplace everyone MUST follow this trend or die which is not at all how markets work. You then contradict yourself talking about niche markets but seem to want to exclude that p2p could be a niche market if worse comes to worse.
Tell me there was a trend some years back where leasing cars was the "fad of the times" or trend if you will and yet people still actually "bought" cars.
Take asian markets, korean markets, chinese markets, japanese markets are you going to tell me they all follow the same trends?
Nonsense!
You keep saying SE "will be forced" to go f2p? I ask you be forced by who, they are a big big company that has been around a long long time, they don't have to do jack if they don't want to, add to the fact it is a japanese company that is obviously very traditional in how it is run.
Look at the videos ans see how they interact with each other, this company has said it will not go f2p and for them to go back on that would make the company lose face. Hell I think much of the redoing 1.0 was to
A. deliver on promises they made
B not to lose face
c keep their fans happy
They are what they are because of their fans and I think they know this. I don't think they view us as sheep to shear but clients to satisfy. Which in my book is a huge difference between f2p game and p2p ones even though there are some exceptions here and there.
I find it mind boggling how f2p games and it's devious marketing tactics are conning and almost conditioning peoples minds that it's the cheaper better way to go lol.
Wake up Sheeps!!!
Red: Leasing cars in Canada is still the way most people get new cars here. Cant speak for the US.
Pink: This is the point, each market/country has its way of selling to their people. Maybe your right and this F2P crap is just a short term trend. But much like you talked about how cars are sold (am sell for a living) you need to change your tactics depending on where you are selling. P2P may work awesome in Japan and other places in the world but what works here? As for your Sheep comment I dont agree. This very thread shows people are not sheep, they are questioning how they are paying and expressing what they want.
Myself I will play a quality game no matter the payment model. I have come to terms that no matter what game I play I will need to pay somehow to progress. I just wont be ripped off and if a game tries to over charge me P2P model or some form of cash shop I will drop that game fast. People are more informed and becoming less sheep like with their money, they want to know what they are paying for. Many people are sick of badly made games with big promises. F2P with an option to pay at the end lets them see if the devs are lying to them =-) There is distrust in the MMO market now.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
I don't agree with your assessment that people play free to cap and then will sub and whatnot to me this shows me your lack of understanding and experience with f2p mmo.
Usually once at endgame most of your spending is done, it's on the journey to endgame and getting ready for it, which is part of the journey, that people spend.
You seem to think because there is a trend in the marketplace everyone MUST follow this trend or die which is not at all how markets work. You then contradict yourself talking about niche markets but seem to want to exclude that p2p could be a niche market if worse comes to worse.
Tell me there was a trend some years back where leasing cars was the "fad of the times" or trend if you will and yet people still actually "bought" cars.
Take asian markets, korean markets, chinese markets, japanese markets are you going to tell me they all follow the same trends?
Nonsense!
You keep saying SE "will be forced" to go f2p? I ask you be forced by who, they are a big big company that has been around a long long time, they don't have to do jack if they don't want to, add to the fact it is a japanese company that is obviously very traditional in how it is run.
Look at the videos ans see how they interact with each other, this company has said it will not go f2p and for them to go back on that would make the company lose face. Hell I think much of the redoing 1.0 was to
A. deliver on promises they made
B not to lose face
c keep their fans happy
They are what they are because of their fans and I think they know this. I don't think they view us as sheep to shear but clients to satisfy. Which in my book is a huge difference between f2p game and p2p ones even though there are some exceptions here and there.
I find it mind boggling how f2p games and it's devious marketing tactics are conning and almost conditioning peoples minds that it's the cheaper better way to go lol.
Wake up Sheeps!!!
Red: Leasing cars in Canada is still the way most people get new cars here. Cant speak for the US.
Pink: This is the point, each market/country has its way of selling to their people. Maybe your right and this F2P crap is just a short term trend. But much like you talked about how cars are sold (am sell for a living) you need to change your tactics depending on where you are selling. P2P may work awesome in Japan and other places in the world but what works here? As for your Sheep comment I dont agree. This very thread shows people are not sheep, they are questioning how they are paying and expressing what they want.
Myself I will play a quality game no matter the payment model. I have come to terms that no matter what game I play I will need to pay somehow to progress. I just wont be ripped off and if a game tries to over charge me P2P model or some form of cash shop I will drop that game fast. People are more informed and becoming less sheep like with their money, they want to know what they are paying for. Many people are sick of badly made games with big promises. F2P with an option to pay at the end lets them see if the devs are lying to them =-) There is distrust in the MMO market now.
I really don't they they're more informed, it's just human nature, why pay when you don't have to? That's all it really is in my honest opinion.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
When will you get it through your thick skull. FFXIV will not be going F2P period. They are find taking a year or more to make money back on their investment. They do not have investors to pay back like every other game that went F2P. The F2P model is a FAD and will go a way in 2 to 3 years when more publishers close down games because they were not making money on the F2P model.
Why do people have to get upset and attack when people are just talking about a subject? No thick skull here, just having a nice talk on a hot topic on just about every forum for just about every MMO. You dont want to take part move on. Im not asking for F2P, just talking about the market and "If" FF14 will be forced to conform. I think they will, you dont agree with me tell me why. I am glad to share my thoughts with you on why I think it will be and happy to hear yours.
You do have a Thick skull if you think the US MARKET will make JAPAN'S MARKET to conform. Sorry it does not work that way. FFXIV has enough JP subscriptions alone to support the game without the US market.
Again no reason to use insults. I will work with what you gave me. When business move into new markets they often conform to the local demands so they can make the most money they can. How is FF14 any different? If X model generates the most money and everyone moves to that model, how does this exclude this game? It cost them money to host US servers, to translate the game in English. If and I say if this becomes the common trend here, why would this exclude FF14?
In his own crude way the previous poster is correct....to a point. SE is a software company like no other doing MMOs. Their core market is Japan which, again, is like no other market. Remember, when all is said and done SE is primarily a single player console based gaming company. The vast majority of their revenus are derived from these games. Despite recent setback they continue to have sufficient cash on hand to maintain a number of of projects under development and have a number of releases scheduled in the next 12 months. As such SE still has the freedom of deciding their business model on what their core market will support. As such how other developers or markets proceed is a secondary consideration to them. Yes they want a global market but not at the expense of their core market. So as long as SE feels that they will continue to support subs then they will proceed with P2P and the Japanese market shows no indications of embracing F2P that I can see. So as much fun as it has been to read that back and forth from both sides of the issue it does not pertain to SE and ARR.
As I have said many times, Im not saying I want this game to go F2P. Im more interested in how this will turn out for games like FF14 if this F2P model does become the standard in the North America. Will SE really pull the plug if they cant make a go of it here with P2P? Thats kinda harsh lol.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
When will you get it through your thick skull. FFXIV will not be going F2P period. They are find taking a year or more to make money back on their investment. They do not have investors to pay back like every other game that went F2P. The F2P model is a FAD and will go a way in 2 to 3 years when more publishers close down games because they were not making money on the F2P model.
Why do people have to get upset and attack when people are just talking about a subject? No thick skull here, just having a nice talk on a hot topic on just about every forum for just about every MMO. You dont want to take part move on. Im not asking for F2P, just talking about the market and "If" FF14 will be forced to conform. I think they will, you dont agree with me tell me why. I am glad to share my thoughts with you on why I think it will be and happy to hear yours.
You do have a Thick skull if you think the US MARKET will make JAPAN'S MARKET to conform. Sorry it does not work that way. FFXIV has enough JP subscriptions alone to support the game without the US market.
Again no reason to use insults. I will work with what you gave me. When business move into new markets they often conform to the local demands so they can make the most money they can. How is FF14 any different? If X model generates the most money and everyone moves to that model, how does this exclude this game? It cost them money to host US servers, to translate the game in English. If and I say if this becomes the common trend here, why would this exclude FF14?
In his own crude way the previous poster is correct....to a point. SE is a software company like no other doing MMOs. Their core market is Japan which, again, is like no other market. Remember, when all is said and done SE is primarily a single player console based gaming company. The vast majority of their revenus are derived from these games. Despite recent setback they continue to have sufficient cash on hand to maintain a number of of projects under development and have a number of releases scheduled in the next 12 months. As such SE still has the freedom of deciding their business model on what their core market will support. As such how other developers or markets proceed is a secondary consideration to them. Yes they want a global market but not at the expense of their core market. So as long as SE feels that they will continue to support subs then they will proceed with P2P and the Japanese market shows no indications of embracing F2P that I can see. So as much fun as it has been to read that back and forth from both sides of the issue it does not pertain to SE and ARR.
As I have said many times, Im not saying I want this game to go F2P. Im more interested in how this will turn out for games like FF14 if this F2P model does become the standard in the North America. Will SE really pull the plug if they cant make a go of it here with P2P? Thats kinda harsh lol.
As difficult as it is for Westerners to understand the answer is yes. If SE is forced to chose between going F2P and shutting down the servers I truelly believe that they will chose the latter but then again I believe that after the 2010 debacle they have read their market better and it will not come to that. Also as I have said before they will base their decisions on what the Japanese market will support not what Westerners will support. The only way they will go F2P is if that is what the JP community wants at which point I think that SE gets out of the MMO business.
I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?
When will you get it through your thick skull. FFXIV will not be going F2P period. They are find taking a year or more to make money back on their investment. They do not have investors to pay back like every other game that went F2P. The F2P model is a FAD and will go a way in 2 to 3 years when more publishers close down games because they were not making money on the F2P model.
Why do people have to get upset and attack when people are just talking about a subject? No thick skull here, just having a nice talk on a hot topic on just about every forum for just about every MMO. You dont want to take part move on. Im not asking for F2P, just talking about the market and "If" FF14 will be forced to conform. I think they will, you dont agree with me tell me why. I am glad to share my thoughts with you on why I think it will be and happy to hear yours.
You do have a Thick skull if you think the US MARKET will make JAPAN'S MARKET to conform. Sorry it does not work that way. FFXIV has enough JP subscriptions alone to support the game without the US market.
Again no reason to use insults. I will work with what you gave me. When business move into new markets they often conform to the local demands so they can make the most money they can. How is FF14 any different? If X model generates the most money and everyone moves to that model, how does this exclude this game? It cost them money to host US servers, to translate the game in English. If and I say if this becomes the common trend here, why would this exclude FF14?
In his own crude way the previous poster is correct....to a point. SE is a software company like no other doing MMOs. Their core market is Japan which, again, is like no other market. Remember, when all is said and done SE is primarily a single player console based gaming company. The vast majority of their revenus are derived from these games. Despite recent setback they continue to have sufficient cash on hand to maintain a number of of projects under development and have a number of releases scheduled in the next 12 months. As such SE still has the freedom of deciding their business model on what their core market will support. As such how other developers or markets proceed is a secondary consideration to them. Yes they want a global market but not at the expense of their core market. So as long as SE feels that they will continue to support subs then they will proceed with P2P and the Japanese market shows no indications of embracing F2P that I can see. So as much fun as it has been to read that back and forth from both sides of the issue it does not pertain to SE and ARR.
As I have said many times, Im not saying I want this game to go F2P. Im more interested in how this will turn out for games like FF14 if this F2P model does become the standard in the North America. Will SE really pull the plug if they cant make a go of it here with P2P? Thats kinda harsh lol.
As difficult as it is for Westerners to understand the answer is yes. If SE is forced to chose between going F2P and shutting down the servers I truelly believe that they will chose the latter but then again I believe that after the 2010 debacle they have read their market better and it will not come to that.
You look good in green =-) Well I will wait and see how this turns out. I think how Blizzard handles this will be the big tipping of the scale of the Western market goes F2P model of some type, hybrid or pure F2P. If they do and pull it off and regrow their loses we are in for some huge changes. If they fail hard it also could be fun to watch. I have often said, only Blizzard can kill WoW =-)
Red: Leasing cars in Canada is still the way most people get new cars here. Cant speak for the US.
Pink: This is the point, each market/country has its way of selling to their people. Maybe your right and this F2P crap is just a short term trend. But much like you talked about how cars are sold (am sell for a living) you need to change your tactics depending on where you are selling. P2P may work awesome in Japan and other places in the world but what works here? As for your Sheep comment I dont agree. This very thread shows people are not sheep, they are questioning how they are paying and expressing what they want.
Myself I will play a quality game no matter the payment model. I have come to terms that no matter what game I play I will need to pay somehow to progress. I just wont be ripped off and if a game tries to over charge me P2P model or some form of cash shop I will drop that game fast. People are more informed and becoming less sheep like with their money, they want to know what they are paying for. Many people are sick of badly made games with big promises. F2P with an option to pay at the end lets them see if the devs are lying to them =-) There is distrust in the MMO market now.
I live in canada btw the french part of it lol. I am 39 am most people I know buy car and don't lease them. I see your point in the conforming to the local market trends, my point is if you don't it doesn't mean you go belly up and die. For example we have a walmart, big grocery chains where I live yet we still have smaller less competitive "farmers markets" and the like and they do pretty good even if they don't make the same revenue as the "big guys".
Again and you touch it here for other companies I might be inclined to agree with you but for SE am I not it is a japanese company and I do think the jap market is more their target and we westerners come in a distant last place.
I have been playing DDO for a long long time and guess what I started f2p then went premium. In games like this in I would have argued much like you but with some different twists such as if you plan on playing for only 2 years or less subs is the way to go but if you plan on playing steadily for 2 years or more "buying" the content to have free access as long as the servers are running is better.
As much as I love the game fact is they have been running it much like a pure f2p game lately even though it has a sub option. They offer xpacks which sub have to pay for as well as premium, content comes out very buggy and it takes forever for those bugs to be fixed if they ever do. When they do they tend to break other stuff. It just seem to me the good f2p game sdon't stay good very long before they they start the greedy money gouging tactics.
My experience with the latest new big name mmo that have been f2p have turned me off completely from them, they have been nothing but lies and BS from the company and the devs, like you mention I am very sick and tired of it.
This is what I mean by sheep wake up, it is not an insult to other mmo users but it seems to me companies take us for fools and lie and try to trick us via unsavory marketing and pratices like "lockboxes" which in my mind is gambling plain and simple.
What makes me angry is when people defend such things and dicey methods tooth an nail and don't seem to realize , or just don't care, that this will just hurt the mmo market and us in the long run.
Welp this has been a good discussion but I feel all talked out about the subject , it will be good to maybe revisit and see where this has went in a year or two concerning this game. I do plan to still be playing it btw.
Thanks for keeping it civil Nanfoodle !
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
Red: Leasing cars in Canada is still the way most people get new cars here. Cant speak for the US.
Pink: This is the point, each market/country has its way of selling to their people. Maybe your right and this F2P crap is just a short term trend. But much like you talked about how cars are sold (am sell for a living) you need to change your tactics depending on where you are selling. P2P may work awesome in Japan and other places in the world but what works here? As for your Sheep comment I dont agree. This very thread shows people are not sheep, they are questioning how they are paying and expressing what they want.
Myself I will play a quality game no matter the payment model. I have come to terms that no matter what game I play I will need to pay somehow to progress. I just wont be ripped off and if a game tries to over charge me P2P model or some form of cash shop I will drop that game fast. People are more informed and becoming less sheep like with their money, they want to know what they are paying for. Many people are sick of badly made games with big promises. F2P with an option to pay at the end lets them see if the devs are lying to them =-) There is distrust in the MMO market now.
I live in canada btw the french part of it lol. I am 39 am most people I know buy car and don't lease them. I see your point in the conforming to the local market trends, my point is if you don't it doesn't mean you go belly up and die. For example we have a walmart, big grocery chains where I live yet we still have smaller less competitive "farmers markets" and the like and they do pretty good even if they don't make the same revenue as the "big guys".
Again and you touch it here for other companies I might be inclined to agree with you but for SE am I not it is a japanese company and I do think the jap market is more their target and we westerners come in a distant last place.
I have been playing DDO for a long long time and guess what I started f2p then went premium. In games like this in I would have argued much like you but with some different twists such as if you plan on playing for only 2 years or less subs is the way to go but if you plan on playing steadily for 2 years or more "buying" the content to have free access as long as the servers are running is better.
As much as I love the game fact is they have been running it much like a pure f2p game lately even though it has a sub option. They offer xpacks which sub have to pay for as well as premium, content comes out very buggy and it takes forever for those bugs to be fixed if they ever do. When they do they tend to break other stuff. It just seem to me the good f2p game sdon't stay good very long before they they start the greedy money gouging tactics.
My experience with the latest new big name mmo that have been f2p have turned me off completely from them, they have been nothing but lies and BS from the company and the devs, like you mention I am very sick and tired of it.
This is what I mean by sheep wake up, it is not an insult to other mmo users but it seems to me companies take us for fools and lie and try to trick us via unsavory marketing and pratices like "lockboxes" which in my mind is gambling plain and simple.
What makes me angry is when people defend such things and dicey methods tooth an nail and don't seem to realize , or just don't care, that this will just hurt the mmo market and us in the long run.
Welp this has been a good discussion but I feel all talked out about the subject , it will be good to maybe revisit and see where this has went in a year or two concerning this game. I do plan to still be playing it btw.
Thanks for keeping it civil Nanfoodle !
In the end I think we are all looking for that balance, a good game we want to play and a company that isnt looking to take advantage of us with its payment model. Im starting to wonder is thats gona ever happen Was fun chatting with you.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I do like GW2s payment model, but them basically saying expansions will probably never happen pretty much killed it for me. The bi-weekly updates are fine, but really not enough for a quality game IMO.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared.
But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared.
But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity.
You missed my point altogether. Nor did you contradict what I said. I said, If it were a different game, the same Cash SHop options would be P2W. You went back and are using an example out of GW2. But I already said it's not P2W in GW2.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared.
But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity.
You missed my point altogether. Nor did you contradict what I said. I said, If it were a different game, the same Cash SHop options would be P2W. You went back and are using an example out of GW2. But I already said it's not P2W in GW2.
And you missed my point, their cash shop is fair in their game and not pay to win. It is possible to have a fair cash shop and it not be Pay to Win and just because a game has a cash shop does not mean the game is crap =-) You adjust the cash shop to fit the game just like you do any mechanic you add to a game, raiding, crafting, housing.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared.
But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity.
You missed my point altogether. Nor did you contradict what I said. I said, If it were a different game, the same Cash SHop options would be P2W. You went back and are using an example out of GW2. But I already said it's not P2W in GW2.
And you missed my point, their cash shop is fair in their game and not pay to win. It is possible to have a fair cash shop and it not be Pay to Win and just because a game has a cash shop does not mean the game is crap =-) You adjust the cash shop to fit the game just like you do any mechanic you add to a game, raiding, crafting, housing.
Yes, I get that. I know it works in GW2. But, I still think you haven't fully comprehended my previous post. Your responses are out of context so I'll paraphrase. Just because it works in GW2, doesn't mean it will work anywhere else.
Originally posted by 5aturn I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away. It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is, 15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are. swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point. rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money. SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone. To all those saying its gonna fail. How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market. Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared.
But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity.
You missed my point altogether. Nor did you contradict what I said. I said, If it were a different game, the same Cash SHop options would be P2W. You went back and are using an example out of GW2. But I already said it's not P2W in GW2.
And you missed my point, their cash shop is fair in their game and not pay to win. It is possible to have a fair cash shop and it not be Pay to Win and just because a game has a cash shop does not mean the game is crap =-) You adjust the cash shop to fit the game just like you do any mechanic you add to a game, raiding, crafting, housing.
Yes, I get that. I know it works in GW2. But, I still think you haven't fully comprehended my previous post. Your responses are out of context so I'll paraphrase. Just because it works in GW2, doesn't mean it will work anywhere else.
LOL this is fun... I get your point but I am saying I 100% disagree with you, I will paraphrase, it can work in any game if they tune it for the game. Im not saying add a cash shop to FF14, I was replying to a comment that game with cash shop = pay to win and crappy game =-) A smart dev team can make a cash shop fair to any game and make sure its not pay to win. If they added some vanity items to a cash shop for FF14, pets and dresses my wife would like to put on her avatar I would not be upset. To keep her playing I would most likely buy a few to make her want to log in more =-) I get the fear of cash shops, some games have used it as a tool to rip off their customers.
LOL this is fun... I get your point but I am saying I 100% disagree with you, I will paraphrase it can work in any game if they tune it for the game. Im not saying add a cash shop to FF14, I was replying to a comment that game with cash shop = pay to win and crappy game =-) A smart dev team can make a cash shop fair to any game and make sure its not pay to win. If they added some vanity items to a cash shop for FF14, pets and dresses my wife would like to put on her avatar I would not be upset. To keep her playing I would most likely buy a few to make her want to log in more =-) I get the fear of cash shops, some games have used it as a tool to rip off their customers.
I disagree, not every game will have a nice fair and square cash shop for all and still be profitable. I'll go back to Anarchy.
When they opened the Cash Shop up, they didn't sell anything that would be considered highly advantageous. But most of the items could be traded. (Real money to game money conversion) Not too different than GW2 in theory. But in Anarchy, the game's mechanics allow for something called "Loot Rights" And those are sold in that game. The mechanic is such that an un looted boss mob will not de-spawn for a long time but after a couple of minutes, the unlooted corpse becomes FFA. What groups will do, is go back to Trade Chat in one of hte cities and announce they have an unlooted Raid Drop. "Who want's it?" For the right amount of money paid to the raid team, anyone in the game will be ported to the corpse and allowed to loot. So, even the Character Bound Raid dropped items can be bought due to different mechanics.
Same kinda of shop in two different MMOs has 2 different effects.
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
Other than 'because i said so', we don't know yet if GW2 features will work well in other MMOS or not. ESO is the only upcoming MMO i know of that is incorporating a lot of GW2 features. So the jury is still out that.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
Other than 'because i said so', we don't know yet if GW2 features will work well in other MMOS or not. ESO is the only upcoming MMO i know of that is incorporating a lot of GW2 features. So the jury is still out that.
That's what I've been saying. Something that works in Game A, Doesn't mean it's going to work in Game B. Not saying it won't. But that different mechanics make for different dynamics and may or may not translate.
I just happen to be less optimistic about it. But that's my own opinion.
Comments
I think its a mistake to believe Square can sit around and wait for the subs to dig them out of the hole this money pit has cost them.
There is without a doubt a sub number goal they need to reach and maintain (outside the one they told the public) to be viable.
However the odds are against them holding a large sub base over the long term.
1. Tons of competition with little to no entry barrier.
2. Old school features and other oddities.
3. FF world but otherwise bland been there done that game play.
4. Slow starting game(combat) that doesn't begin to pay off until higher level.
Keep in mind I am talking about the casual majority. I don't think the number of true mmo'ers. The ones who marry a game and stick with it have grown all that much and are not enough to erase the debt this game has cost.
Plus it all ready has payment tiers. It seems set up to go hybrid at a later date.
While I would like to have a subscription OPTION for the MMORPG I like,
I believe that not one NEW MMORPG can succeed in the WESTERN market if it is ONLY subscription based.
I played FFXIV beta, and I'll agree it's very well done, it is not really interesting for me. While I can see solid amount of people playing it with subscription, I don't see it being a success (in the west). Not really that different from others.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
I don't agree with your assessment that people play free to cap and then will sub and whatnot to me this shows me your lack of understanding and experience with f2p mmo.
Usually once at endgame most of your spending is done, it's on the journey to endgame and getting ready for it, which is part of the journey, that people spend.
You seem to think because there is a trend in the marketplace everyone MUST follow this trend or die which is not at all how markets work. You then contradict yourself talking about niche markets but seem to want to exclude that p2p could be a niche market if worse comes to worse.
Tell me there was a trend some years back where leasing cars was the "fad of the times" or trend if you will and yet people still actually "bought" cars.
Take asian markets, korean markets, chinese markets, japanese markets are you going to tell me they all follow the same trends?
Nonsense!
You keep saying SE "will be forced" to go f2p? I ask you be forced by who, they are a big big company that has been around a long long time, they don't have to do jack if they don't want to, add to the fact it is a japanese company that is obviously very traditional in how it is run.
Look at the videos ans see how they interact with each other, this company has said it will not go f2p and for them to go back on that would make the company lose face. Hell I think much of the redoing 1.0 was to
A. deliver on promises they made
B not to lose face
c keep their fans happy
They are what they are because of their fans and I think they know this. I don't think they view us as sheep to shear but clients to satisfy. Which in my book is a huge difference between f2p game and p2p ones even though there are some exceptions here and there.
I find it mind boggling how f2p games and it's devious marketing tactics are conning and almost conditioning peoples minds that it's the cheaper better way to go lol.
Wake up Sheeps!!!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
In his own crude way the previous poster is correct....to a point. SE is a software company like no other doing MMOs. Their core market is Japan which, again, is like no other market. Remember, when all is said and done SE is primarily a single player console based gaming company. The vast majority of their revenus are derived from these games. Despite recent setback they continue to have sufficient cash on hand to maintain a number of of projects under development and have a number of releases scheduled in the next 12 months. As such SE still has the freedom of deciding their business model on what their core market will support. As such how other developers or markets proceed is a secondary consideration to them. Yes they want a global market but not at the expense of their core market. So as long as SE feels that they will continue to support subs then they will proceed with P2P and the Japanese market shows no indications of embracing F2P that I can see. So as much fun as it has been to read that back and forth from both sides of the issue it does not pertain to SE and ARR.
Red: Leasing cars in Canada is still the way most people get new cars here. Cant speak for the US.
Pink: This is the point, each market/country has its way of selling to their people. Maybe your right and this F2P crap is just a short term trend. But much like you talked about how cars are sold (am sell for a living) you need to change your tactics depending on where you are selling. P2P may work awesome in Japan and other places in the world but what works here? As for your Sheep comment I dont agree. This very thread shows people are not sheep, they are questioning how they are paying and expressing what they want.
Myself I will play a quality game no matter the payment model. I have come to terms that no matter what game I play I will need to pay somehow to progress. I just wont be ripped off and if a game tries to over charge me P2P model or some form of cash shop I will drop that game fast. People are more informed and becoming less sheep like with their money, they want to know what they are paying for. Many people are sick of badly made games with big promises. F2P with an option to pay at the end lets them see if the devs are lying to them =-) There is distrust in the MMO market now.
I really don't they they're more informed, it's just human nature, why pay when you don't have to? That's all it really is in my honest opinion.
As I have said many times, Im not saying I want this game to go F2P. Im more interested in how this will turn out for games like FF14 if this F2P model does become the standard in the North America. Will SE really pull the plug if they cant make a go of it here with P2P? Thats kinda harsh lol.
As difficult as it is for Westerners to understand the answer is yes. If SE is forced to chose between going F2P and shutting down the servers I truelly believe that they will chose the latter but then again I believe that after the 2010 debacle they have read their market better and it will not come to that. Also as I have said before they will base their decisions on what the Japanese market will support not what Westerners will support. The only way they will go F2P is if that is what the JP community wants at which point I think that SE gets out of the MMO business.
You look good in green =-) Well I will wait and see how this turns out. I think how Blizzard handles this will be the big tipping of the scale of the Western market goes F2P model of some type, hybrid or pure F2P. If they do and pull it off and regrow their loses we are in for some huge changes. If they fail hard it also could be fun to watch. I have often said, only Blizzard can kill WoW =-)
I live in canada btw the french part of it lol. I am 39 am most people I know buy car and don't lease them. I see your point in the conforming to the local market trends, my point is if you don't it doesn't mean you go belly up and die. For example we have a walmart, big grocery chains where I live yet we still have smaller less competitive "farmers markets" and the like and they do pretty good even if they don't make the same revenue as the "big guys".
Again and you touch it here for other companies I might be inclined to agree with you but for SE am I not it is a japanese company and I do think the jap market is more their target and we westerners come in a distant last place.
I have been playing DDO for a long long time and guess what I started f2p then went premium. In games like this in I would have argued much like you but with some different twists such as if you plan on playing for only 2 years or less subs is the way to go but if you plan on playing steadily for 2 years or more "buying" the content to have free access as long as the servers are running is better.
As much as I love the game fact is they have been running it much like a pure f2p game lately even though it has a sub option. They offer xpacks which sub have to pay for as well as premium, content comes out very buggy and it takes forever for those bugs to be fixed if they ever do. When they do they tend to break other stuff. It just seem to me the good f2p game sdon't stay good very long before they they start the greedy money gouging tactics.
My experience with the latest new big name mmo that have been f2p have turned me off completely from them, they have been nothing but lies and BS from the company and the devs, like you mention I am very sick and tired of it.
This is what I mean by sheep wake up, it is not an insult to other mmo users but it seems to me companies take us for fools and lie and try to trick us via unsavory marketing and pratices like "lockboxes" which in my mind is gambling plain and simple.
What makes me angry is when people defend such things and dicey methods tooth an nail and don't seem to realize , or just don't care, that this will just hurt the mmo market and us in the long run.
Welp this has been a good discussion but I feel all talked out about the subject , it will be good to maybe revisit and see where this has went in a year or two concerning this game. I do plan to still be playing it btw.
Thanks for keeping it civil Nanfoodle !
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
In the end I think we are all looking for that balance, a good game we want to play and a company that isnt looking to take advantage of us with its payment model. Im starting to wonder is thats gona ever happen
Was fun chatting with you.
You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.
GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)
Think about it for a second.
IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.
Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)
I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.
I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared.
But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity.
You missed my point altogether. Nor did you contradict what I said. I said, If it were a different game, the same Cash SHop options would be P2W. You went back and are using an example out of GW2. But I already said it's not P2W in GW2.
And you missed my point, their cash shop is fair in their game and not pay to win. It is possible to have a fair cash shop and it not be Pay to Win and just because a game has a cash shop does not mean the game is crap =-) You adjust the cash shop to fit the game just like you do any mechanic you add to a game, raiding, crafting, housing.
Yes, I get that. I know it works in GW2. But, I still think you haven't fully comprehended my previous post. Your responses are out of context so I'll paraphrase. Just because it works in GW2, doesn't mean it will work anywhere else.
LOL this is fun... I get your point but I am saying I 100% disagree with you, I will paraphrase, it can work in any game if they tune it for the game. Im not saying add a cash shop to FF14, I was replying to a comment that game with cash shop = pay to win and crappy game =-) A smart dev team can make a cash shop fair to any game and make sure its not pay to win. If they added some vanity items to a cash shop for FF14, pets and dresses my wife would like to put on her avatar I would not be upset. To keep her playing I would most likely buy a few to make her want to log in more =-) I get the fear of cash shops, some games have used it as a tool to rip off their customers.
I disagree, not every game will have a nice fair and square cash shop for all and still be profitable. I'll go back to Anarchy.
When they opened the Cash Shop up, they didn't sell anything that would be considered highly advantageous. But most of the items could be traded. (Real money to game money conversion) Not too different than GW2 in theory. But in Anarchy, the game's mechanics allow for something called "Loot Rights" And those are sold in that game. The mechanic is such that an un looted boss mob will not de-spawn for a long time but after a couple of minutes, the unlooted corpse becomes FFA. What groups will do, is go back to Trade Chat in one of hte cities and announce they have an unlooted Raid Drop. "Who want's it?" For the right amount of money paid to the raid team, anyone in the game will be ported to the corpse and allowed to loot. So, even the Character Bound Raid dropped items can be bought due to different mechanics.
Same kinda of shop in two different MMOs has 2 different effects.
Other than 'because i said so', we don't know yet if GW2 features will work well in other MMOS or not. ESO is the only upcoming MMO i know of that is incorporating a lot of GW2 features. So the jury is still out that.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
That's what I've been saying. Something that works in Game A, Doesn't mean it's going to work in Game B. Not saying it won't. But that different mechanics make for different dynamics and may or may not translate.
I just happen to be less optimistic about it. But that's my own opinion.