Had to stop there. When are people going to stop peddling this stupid idea that modern games can't function without instances? Games in 1999 did it. Games in 2003 did it. Games with 200 devs do it. Games with 30 devs do it.
It's not about the hardware anymore, if it ever was.
And you know what they call instances with "increased group sized and not forced group?" Fucking public dungeons.
dude, have you played WoW when WotLK came out? There was this thing called Winter Grasp. The first month it lagged like crazy because a lot of people were trying to get in.
Server problems still exist. Do you know why you don't notice them? Because most everything is instanced
Wait Wait Wait.. Beep up the bus.. There was NO trying to get into Wintergrasp.. Wintergrasp was NOT instanced.. It was an open world zone and the ONLY 2 issues Wintergrasp has was:
PvP balance as it was often lop sided because one side far out manned the other, making winning almost impossible. It was because of this they created "tenacity" to be the equalizer..
Lag from immediate close proximity combat.. People often suffered lag when computers tried to draw ALL the SPELL graphics when you have 100 people inside one room.. Been there, done that and it was horrible.. This normally only took place towards the end of the fight when the castle was breached and people in the center court area..
Now if Wintergrasp was changed since I left years ago, I stand corrected, but I had not heard anything in the grapevine other then they tried to change it to a queue up type of system because tenacity wasn't working either.. But the last I heard is that Wikntergrasp has NOTHING to do with instancing..
Thats the point, it WAS an open world. Which means that the server was handling everyone. Thats why there was lag in the first place.
Maybe your server wasn't populated enough (you have dropped hints at it before). For my server it was pretty much a lag fest through and through from start to finish.
The number of people on the server had nothing to do with lag in Wintergrasp.. There were more people in Dalaran floating above then in Wintergrasp and there was no lag there or anywhere else.. Servers are designed to handle thousands of players.. 98% of all lag issues in any game is graphic intensity and the stress it puts on peoples graphic cards, which is another reason of it's own.. But saying that instancing reduces "server" load is insignificant.. I was playing GW2 the other day with no issues, and the moment I jumped into a boss fight with 60 others, the graphics lag started.. This had nothing to do with the number of people on the sever, cause the moment I left the fight, or the fight was over...... LAG disappeared..
The population of a server means that there are more people to join in Wintergrasp. If 10% of your pop joins Wintergrasp, then a server with 10,000 people will have more people in Wintergrasp than a server with 5,000 people. But that's besides the point. Cities had stronger dedicated servers to handle that many people. You know why you never lagged in Dalaran? That's why. I don't necessarily know if you are describing lag or skip. I'm describing a delay in action, not a slow down in frames and skipping of the video. One is the result of servers, the other is the result of your personal hardware.
Yes, those two games did it poorly, other games do not. DAoC, for instance, or Vanguard.
Unless later DAOC dungeons were completely different from early ones, DAOC's dungeons were much worse.
In fact I found a video of an early DAOC dungeon I hated. I quit the game when the dungeon after this one was identically dull.
Basically the video showcases how DAOC dungeons are nothing more than a maze with monster spawns (monsters which have no significant abilities to react to, and therefore are completely flat and lifeless.) It's almost the dullest dungeon you can possibly create in an MMORPG! The only gameplay revolves around not aggroing too many mobs at once (which modern dungeons also have, except they also have deep character rotations and varied mob abilities which pose threat to the player if not reacted to correctly.)
It's great that you enjoyed DAOC, but a shining example of dungeon design it was not.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except you can have those unique bosses in noninstanced games too. In fact, many noninstanced MMOs have such bosses.
Exactly Davis.. GW2 is bringing that out along with Rift.. We can now have dynamic boss fights that scale to the group attacking it...... Problem solved and let the party begin
Actually those are both great examples of how mediocre the game mechanics end up being in open world boss content. Instead of a tightly-tuned fight where your skill matters, you just zerg through the encounter and barely have to worry about mechanics.
Yes, those two games did it poorly, other games do not. DAoC, for instance, or Vanguard.
Vanguard? Vanguard?! Vanguard was a tank 'n' spank game through and through. I remember nothing special about the bosses.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Games are boring because they only have one or two ways of doing things. You mentioned my dream game. It incorporates everything I enjoy from all games. I voted other because I want a mix up of many options in dungeons so I or my team can decide what we want at that moment.
Most of all I want the dungeon chest rewards to be worth something.
Except you can have those unique bosses in noninstanced games too. In fact, many noninstanced MMOs have such bosses.
Exactly Davis.. GW2 is bringing that out along with Rift.. We can now have dynamic boss fights that scale to the group attacking it...... Problem solved and let the party begin
Actually those are both great examples of how mediocre the game mechanics end up being in open world boss content. Instead of a tightly-tuned fight where your skill matters, you just zerg through the encounter and barely have to worry about mechanics.
Even WOW's recent open world bosses are pretty mediocre fights, despite scaling to the number of players and having mechanics threatening enough to have to worry about.
All three examples are textbook cases of what I described in my earlier post, where open world is a drag on new mechanic development. Instead of focusing purely on making new interesting boss mechanics, these dev teams had to spend a non-trivial amount of time implementing the scaling systems to make the open world bosses worthwhile (or in RIFT's case, they just have a sort of soft scaling with the bonus rounds of a rift.)
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
Blackrock Depth in WoW is a HUGE (really HUGE) dungeon, definitely not linear...
Instanced dungeons don't have to be linear hallways. There are that way because developers design them that way, catering to the "average user" (to say it nicely).
This we will actually agree on.. But linear seems to be the only way for the devs to control how instances and boss fights are done.. Back in the vanilla days of WoW raid dungeons were designed for guilds to spend ALL night doing.. This I believe stemmed from the days of EQ when guilds would schedule "raid" night for the guild, such as ToV.. Now here is an example how open world raiding can be a pain.. ToV can only hold 2 raid groups as I recall, and if a 3 wanted to raid the same night then you have a problem.. (keep in mind many of the WoW devs played EQ prior).. Instancing BRD meant that everyone has their own private raid zone, which I can understand.. This also meant that the Devs had control on who got what and when.. Blizzard didn't not want large guilds farming raid areas ALL week long.. Hence the lockouts, just like the heroics..
To allow an open raid system means that the devs give up some of their control on how people play.. it's a double edge sword and cuts both ways with pro's and con's for both.. As much as I understand the desire for instances, I don't think they were needed.. I think devs and players got comfortable with the design, and it is what it is.. There is no doubt in my mind (which can be debated LOL ) that open boss fights can be programmed to be dynamic and challenging, BUT at what cost? Will they appeal to the masses or turn them away..
Keep in mind that all this is based on end game being RAID focused, which doesn't have to be the case.. Again, this is more of pavlov's dog conditioning..
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
You'd watch a movie where "the boss" rather directs his attention to the heavily armored guy shouting insults rather than the dudes shooting lightning bolts and flinging fireballs at him? Or maybe you'd rather have the boss swarmed by waves and waves of "heroes" - doing the same only in large scale.
The boss puzzles in WoW, Rift and GW2 are infinitely better than the alternative. They actually make the boss encounter feel special - not to mention; challenging.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
You'd watch a movie where "the boss" rather directs his attention to the heavily armored guy shouting insults rather than the dudes shooting lightning bolts and flinging fireballs at him? Or maybe you'd rather have the boss swarmed by waves and waves of "heroes" - doing the same only in large scale.
The boss puzzles in WoW, Rift and GW2 are infinitely better than the alternative. They actually make the boss encounter feel special - not to mention; challenging.
In your opinion.. and that is OK for you, but I don't want to be forced to play YOUR preference.. I have always advocated BOTH options be available, but you keep fighting it.. why?
In your opinion.. and that is OK for you, but I don't want to be forced to play YOUR preference.. I have always advocated BOTH options be available, but you keep fighting it.. why?
The comment I replied to... Was that you advocating something?
Anything can seem goofy if you pick it apart and make a silly comparison (in your case: dance moves).
OK for me? OK for me and millions of other players! You can't just sweep this under a rug merely by saying "it is OK for me". People want boss encounters to feel like boss encounters and that is best achieved in instances.
Player abilities and single boss mobs scale very poorly regarding large vs. small scale. To make everything work well in large scale as well as small is a pipe dream. Yeah you might think it "good enough", but clearly it is not "good enough" for the majority. To my understanding, the use of open world bosses has gone down afterall.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Except you can have those unique bosses in noninstanced games too. In fact, many noninstanced MMOs have such bosses.
Exactly Davis.. GW2 is bringing that out along with Rift.. We can now have dynamic boss fights that scale to the group attacking it...... Problem solved and let the party begin
Actually those are both great examples of how mediocre the game mechanics end up being in open world boss content. Instead of a tightly-tuned fight where your skill matters, you just zerg through the encounter and barely have to worry about mechanics.
Yes, those two games did it poorly, other games do not. DAoC, for instance, or Vanguard.
What stops you from zerging things in Vanguard is that the playerbase isn't large enough to fill a zerg. That's not something that other developers want to emulate.
Except you can have those unique bosses in noninstanced games too. In fact, many noninstanced MMOs have such bosses.
Exactly Davis.. GW2 is bringing that out along with Rift.. We can now have dynamic boss fights that scale to the group attacking it...... Problem solved and let the party begin
Actually those are both great examples of how mediocre the game mechanics end up being in open world boss content. Instead of a tightly-tuned fight where your skill matters, you just zerg through the encounter and barely have to worry about mechanics.
Yes, those two games did it poorly, other games do not. DAoC, for instance, or Vanguard.
What stops you from zerging things in Vanguard is that the playerbase isn't large enough to fill a zerg. That's not something that other developers want to emulate.
Burn.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
In your opinion.. and that is OK for you, but I don't want to be forced to play YOUR preference.. I have always advocated BOTH options be available, but you keep fighting it.. why?
The comment I replied to... Was that you advocating something?
Anything can seem goofy if you pick it apart and make a silly comparison (in your case: dance moves).
OK for me? OK for me and millions of other players! You can't just sweep this under a rug merely by saying "it is OK for me". People want boss encounters to feel like boss encounters and that is best achieved in instances.
Player abilities and single boss mobs scale very poorly regarding large vs. small scale. To make everything work well in large scale as well as small is a pipe dream. Yeah you might think it "good enough", but clearly it is not "good enough" for the majority. To my understanding, the use of open world bosses has gone down afterall.
Still fighting I see.. I like open world bosses like Sleeper's Tomb, and you like instances like Lich King.. Which one was easier? hmm As for the millions comment.. McDonald's server billions that doesn't make it the best restaurant in the world.. Just saying, numbers don't mean anything..
how about open world dungeon with instances boss rooms ?
It feel stupid when run through long instances again and again just to finish some boss in the end of road.
Waste time active need removed.
have to say that current instances are bad design because it waste too much time for running A to B active , they need to remove useless part and just instance what needed aka "Boss"
In your opinion.. and that is OK for you, but I don't want to be forced to play YOUR preference.. I have always advocated BOTH options be available, but you keep fighting it.. why?
The comment I replied to... Was that you advocating something?
Anything can seem goofy if you pick it apart and make a silly comparison (in your case: dance moves).
OK for me? OK for me and millions of other players! You can't just sweep this under a rug merely by saying "it is OK for me". People want boss encounters to feel like boss encounters and that is best achieved in instances.
Player abilities and single boss mobs scale very poorly regarding large vs. small scale. To make everything work well in large scale as well as small is a pipe dream. Yeah you might think it "good enough", but clearly it is not "good enough" for the majority. To my understanding, the use of open world bosses has gone down afterall.
Still fighting I see.. I like open world bosses like Sleeper's Tomb, and you like instances like Lich King.. Which one was easier? hmm As for the millions comment.. McDonald's server billions that doesn't make it the best restaurant in the world.. Just saying, numbers don't mean anything..
Mcdonalds serves billions because its the cheapest option.
WoW isn't the cheapest option, and in some cases is actually the more expensive option. If you have a number of choices that all cost the same or less, the fact that you pick the one game that STILL has a subscription to it means something
how about open world dungeon with instances boss rooms ?
This hybrid design is definitely the best solution for me.
I remember in AC1 getting at the bottom of a newly released dungeon only to see the boss room camped by 100 other players, resulting in hours of waiting or having to try to "steal" the boss. That was neither challenging (100 players ganking a mob isn't challenging) nor fun. I'd rather have had a small instance for the boss where I could enter with my party and then a challenging fight.
The Callous Heart quest in Asheron's Call provided an interesting approach to the design you describe. Players went through and did the quest, and on completion they were sent to an NPC that would give them an allotment of portal gems (weekly?) they could use to access the final dungeon. This allowed players that completed the quest to do the boss encounter at their leisure, with their preferred group, and in their own instance while leaving the main quest portion public.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
The problem being that there are currently two types of gameplay found in MMORPGs:
games with WOW dance moves where unique tactics are required to beat.
games without WOW dance moves, where bosses are just visually different but fight exactly the same.
Are you implying that a flat, every-boss-is-the-same system is preferable?
Or if you're simply implying that there's plenty of room for improvement and that it's sad that WOW is the state of the art of boss mechanics still, then I would be more inclined to agree. It also brings us back on topic, emphasizing the importance of instancing (which avoids the development drag of implementing mechanics which work in the open world.)
But the "dance" is gameplay. It represents the boss doing something threatening enough that you need to adapt a strategy to defeat him. Without that dance, every boss is the same shallow fight as the last hundred bosses. Do you really want that?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
The problem being that there are currently two types of gameplay found in MMORPGs:
games with WOW dance moves where unique tactics are required to beat.
games without WOW dance moves, where bosses are just visually different but fight exactly the same.
Are you implying that a flat, every-boss-is-the-same system is preferable?
Or if you're simply implying that there's plenty of room for improvement and that it's sad that WOW is the state of the art of boss mechanics still, then I would be more inclined to agree. It also brings us back on topic, emphasizing the importance of instancing (which avoids the development drag of implementing mechanics which work in the open world.)
But the "dance" is gameplay. It represents the boss doing something threatening enough that you need to adapt a strategy to defeat him. Without that dance, every boss is the same shallow fight as the last hundred bosses. Do you really want that?
You have your likings and I have mine.. I prefer a fight that allows for multiple endings and a variety of ways of defeating the boss.. The issue I have with instanced boss dances is that there is ONLY ONE way to dance the dance.. The devs program a boss fight from start to finish and any deviation from that dance = WIPE.. That is not challenging nor fun to me.. I'm being forced to dance THEIR dance, and not mine.. It's obvious you like it, and it's equally obvious that others don't.. Just as I hate groups being forced to play the HOLY TRINITY game, I believe and ask for MORE.. I'm a bit disappointed that classes are homogenized into 3 roles and bosses are nothing more then Simon Says dance moves..
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
The problem being that there are currently two types of gameplay found in MMORPGs:
games with WOW dance moves where unique tactics are required to beat.
games without WOW dance moves, where bosses are just visually different but fight exactly the same.
Are you implying that a flat, every-boss-is-the-same system is preferable?
Or if you're simply implying that there's plenty of room for improvement and that it's sad that WOW is the state of the art of boss mechanics still, then I would be more inclined to agree. It also brings us back on topic, emphasizing the importance of instancing (which avoids the development drag of implementing mechanics which work in the open world.)
But the "dance" is gameplay. It represents the boss doing something threatening enough that you need to adapt a strategy to defeat him. Without that dance, every boss is the same shallow fight as the last hundred bosses. Do you really want that?
WoW was almost nothing like this Pre Myst. Most every fight really amounted to "Kill adds, get out of fire, attack boss". This is far different from the earlier MMO's where they took oldschool themes like resistances, certain classes having innate strengths to monsters, whether you attacked from melee or ranged, or what have you. Im some games, things like times of day, weather patterns, and how fast you were killing them affected the enemies overall strength.
WoW completely got rid of this concept for the most part because they specifically didn't want certain classes to excel at certain fights while others failed. They also didn't want fights to involve people doing massive amounts of studying just to succeed
KB.. you sorta went a direction I was going to go with what WoW's philosophy was.. WoW's raiding from where I sat felt like Esport.. Back in the day of EQ's raiding, everyone had the opportunity to raid, and much of the gear wasn't tiered.. It was more about resistance and pools.. When my guild did raids in ToV, everyone was invited and we all worked on the Dragon point system. No one was told, "sorry no room for you tonight".. and we didn't have the drama that restrictive raids in WoW caused..
I personally believe that WoW really wanted to promote the esport mentality in both PvP and PvE game play.. Having raid lockouts, which lead to primary raid groups, to back ups, etc etc, caused a separation within guilds and cliques.. Besides the guild that I was officer in, I never saw a guild that allowed for equal rotation in raiding.. or heroics.. Our guild promoted that EVERYONE gets a seat on the bus, and we kept record of who has raided or who hasn't.. Because of lockouts, Blizz made our job that much harder, in scheduling fair and equal opportunities..
This is another reason why I support open world events.. NO MORE LOCKOUTS.. I find that one of the most anti-social hindrance mechanics in gaming today..
There is absolutely no need for instances,the ONLY reason they exist is because they are cheaper more cost effective for the developer,they do NOTHING for the gamer.
Then to support this cheaper,lazier design devs made sure to put the best rewards inside of these instances,so nobody would complain.Basically like telling your employee to clean the washrooms, NO WAY,i'll pay you double ! ...OK :P.
There is a place for instance gaming,it is called single player games,where your entire game is like one big instance because you are the only one there.If we are playing a MMO and the game puts a MMO tag on it's title,it had better well operate like a MMO and not a single player or co op game.
The ONLY time you might use an instance in a MMO is to support LOCKED content or a story line.However even then you don't NEED to utilize an instance,they are NEVER needed.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
KB.. you sorta went a direction I was going to go with what WoW's philosophy was.. WoW's raiding from where I sat felt like Esport.. Back in the day of EQ's raiding, everyone had the opportunity to raid, and much of the gear wasn't tiered.. It was more about resistance and pools.. When my guild did raids in ToV, everyone was invited and we all worked on the Dragon point system. No one was told, "sorry no room for you tonight".. and we didn't have the drama that restrictive raids in WoW caused..
I personally believe that WoW really wanted to promote the esport mentality in both PvP and PvE game play.. Having raid lockouts, which lead to primary raid groups, to back ups, etc etc, caused a separation within guilds and cliques.. Besides the guild that I was officer in, I never saw a guild that allowed for equal rotation in raiding.. or heroics.. Our guild promoted that EVERYONE gets a seat on the bus, and we kept record of who has raided or who hasn't.. Because of lockouts, Blizz made our job that much harder, in scheduling fair and equal opportunities..
This is another reason why I support open world events.. NO MORE LOCKOUTS.. I find that one of the most anti-social hindrance mechanics in gaming today..
The difference between instance/lockout versus openworld/spawn is that, in an openworld fight, if group has a mob, then the entire server has to wait. Lockouts for instances are a necessary evil and one that I personally despise, but it really does beat a scenario where I have to physically wait for hours just for someone to kill something that I want to kill.
KB.. you sorta went a direction I was going to go with what WoW's philosophy was.. WoW's raiding from where I sat felt like Esport.. Back in the day of EQ's raiding, everyone had the opportunity to raid, and much of the gear wasn't tiered.. It was more about resistance and pools.. When my guild did raids in ToV, everyone was invited and we all worked on the Dragon point system. No one was told, "sorry no room for you tonight".. and we didn't have the drama that restrictive raids in WoW caused..
I personally believe that WoW really wanted to promote the esport mentality in both PvP and PvE game play.. Having raid lockouts, which lead to primary raid groups, to back ups, etc etc, caused a separation within guilds and cliques.. Besides the guild that I was officer in, I never saw a guild that allowed for equal rotation in raiding.. or heroics.. Our guild promoted that EVERYONE gets a seat on the bus, and we kept record of who has raided or who hasn't.. Because of lockouts, Blizz made our job that much harder, in scheduling fair and equal opportunities..
This is another reason why I support open world events.. NO MORE LOCKOUTS.. I find that one of the most anti-social hindrance mechanics in gaming today..
The difference between instance/lockout versus openworld/spawn is that, in an openworld fight, if group has a mob, then the entire server has to wait. Lockouts for instances are a necessary evil and one that I personally despise, but it really does beat a scenario where I have to physically wait for hours just for someone to kill something that I want to kill.
There is absolutely no need for instances,the ONLY reason they exist is because they are cheaper more cost effective for the developer,they do NOTHING for the gamer.
Then to support this cheaper,lazier design devs made sure to put the best rewards inside of these instances,so nobody would complain.Basically like telling your employee to clean the washrooms, NO WAY,i'll pay you double ! ...OK :P.
There is a place for instance gaming,it is called single player games,where your entire game is like one big instance because you are the only one there.If we are playing a MMO and the game puts a MMO tag on it's title,it had better well operate like a MMO and not a single player or co op game.
The ONLY time you might use an instance in a MMO is to support LOCKED content or a story line.However even then you don't NEED to utilize an instance,they are NEVER needed.
These are scenarios that happen in open world:
You want to kill Rare spawn? Too bad, other guild is killing Rare spawn. Does rare spawn have a repop? You now have to wait for repop.
You want to level in Zone A? Too bad, Zone A has too many people, go to Zone B for less EXP.
You want tougher fights? Too bad, fights are attuned for a certain small number of people so that everyone gets a chance.
You want easier fights? Too bad, fights are attuned for larger groups of people
You want to just adjust your fights? Too bad, this can't be done without horribly abusing the mechanic.
Instances are not JUST to cut cost. They eliminate a ton of problems associated with open world gameplay, and allow for many new things to be done, such as allowing for more interesting fights based on many different layouts, adjusting strength of the encounter, reducing possibilities of being griefed, etc.
Comments
The population of a server means that there are more people to join in Wintergrasp. If 10% of your pop joins Wintergrasp, then a server with 10,000 people will have more people in Wintergrasp than a server with 5,000 people. But that's besides the point. Cities had stronger dedicated servers to handle that many people. You know why you never lagged in Dalaran? That's why. I don't necessarily know if you are describing lag or skip. I'm describing a delay in action, not a slow down in frames and skipping of the video. One is the result of servers, the other is the result of your personal hardware.
Ever notice how some people are just stuck in the past and are too stubborn to listen to reason or change with the times?
"Back in my day, we didn't have none of those new-fangled instance contraptions and dab-nabbit I won't be caught dead in one!!"
Unless later DAOC dungeons were completely different from early ones, DAOC's dungeons were much worse.
In fact I found a video of an early DAOC dungeon I hated. I quit the game when the dungeon after this one was identically dull.
Basically the video showcases how DAOC dungeons are nothing more than a maze with monster spawns (monsters which have no significant abilities to react to, and therefore are completely flat and lifeless.) It's almost the dullest dungeon you can possibly create in an MMORPG! The only gameplay revolves around not aggroing too many mobs at once (which modern dungeons also have, except they also have deep character rotations and varied mob abilities which pose threat to the player if not reacted to correctly.)
It's great that you enjoyed DAOC, but a shining example of dungeon design it was not.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Vanguard? Vanguard?! Vanguard was a tank 'n' spank game through and through. I remember nothing special about the bosses.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Games are boring because they only have one or two ways of doing things. You mentioned my dream game. It incorporates everything I enjoy from all games. I voted other because I want a mix up of many options in dungeons so I or my team can decide what we want at that moment.
Most of all I want the dungeon chest rewards to be worth something.
Are you serious? We definitely view things differently.. I found boss fights in games like WoW silly and stupid.. All they are , are one big illogical dance.. Step 1, Step 2 twirl, jump Step 3, Step 4, and jump.. The add app "DEADLY BOSS MOBS" is a perfect example how predictable and silly they were.. I remember so many of the WoW boss fights, that even today I can't believe people actually enjoyed them.. But oh well, that is their preference, not mine.. Next time I watch Lord of the Rings on TV, I'll check their epic fights and see how many silly dance moves they do.. Run and hide from the Boss AOE is not a good mechanic (IMO), everyone gathering under a bubble during a boss rage is not a good mechanic (IMO).. Stand under the legs of this Boss during the fight so you're not effected by his AOEs.. (that one I can tolerate) BUT.. But I hated ones like the dragon in Kara.. or even the Lich King himself was tricked out to no end..
This we will actually agree on.. But linear seems to be the only way for the devs to control how instances and boss fights are done.. Back in the vanilla days of WoW raid dungeons were designed for guilds to spend ALL night doing.. This I believe stemmed from the days of EQ when guilds would schedule "raid" night for the guild, such as ToV.. Now here is an example how open world raiding can be a pain.. ToV can only hold 2 raid groups as I recall, and if a 3 wanted to raid the same night then you have a problem.. (keep in mind many of the WoW devs played EQ prior).. Instancing BRD meant that everyone has their own private raid zone, which I can understand.. This also meant that the Devs had control on who got what and when.. Blizzard didn't not want large guilds farming raid areas ALL week long.. Hence the lockouts, just like the heroics..
To allow an open raid system means that the devs give up some of their control on how people play.. it's a double edge sword and cuts both ways with pro's and con's for both.. As much as I understand the desire for instances, I don't think they were needed.. I think devs and players got comfortable with the design, and it is what it is.. There is no doubt in my mind (which can be debated LOL ) that open boss fights can be programmed to be dynamic and challenging, BUT at what cost? Will they appeal to the masses or turn them away..
Keep in mind that all this is based on end game being RAID focused, which doesn't have to be the case.. Again, this is more of pavlov's dog conditioning..
You'd watch a movie where "the boss" rather directs his attention to the heavily armored guy shouting insults rather than the dudes shooting lightning bolts and flinging fireballs at him? Or maybe you'd rather have the boss swarmed by waves and waves of "heroes" - doing the same only in large scale.
The boss puzzles in WoW, Rift and GW2 are infinitely better than the alternative. They actually make the boss encounter feel special - not to mention; challenging.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In your opinion.. and that is OK for you, but I don't want to be forced to play YOUR preference.. I have always advocated BOTH options be available, but you keep fighting it.. why?
The comment I replied to... Was that you advocating something?
Anything can seem goofy if you pick it apart and make a silly comparison (in your case: dance moves).
OK for me? OK for me and millions of other players! You can't just sweep this under a rug merely by saying "it is OK for me". People want boss encounters to feel like boss encounters and that is best achieved in instances.
Player abilities and single boss mobs scale very poorly regarding large vs. small scale. To make everything work well in large scale as well as small is a pipe dream. Yeah you might think it "good enough", but clearly it is not "good enough" for the majority. To my understanding, the use of open world bosses has gone down afterall.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What stops you from zerging things in Vanguard is that the playerbase isn't large enough to fill a zerg. That's not something that other developers want to emulate.
Burn.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Still fighting I see.. I like open world bosses like Sleeper's Tomb, and you like instances like Lich King.. Which one was easier? hmm As for the millions comment.. McDonald's server billions that doesn't make it the best restaurant in the world.. Just saying, numbers don't mean anything..
how about open world dungeon with instances boss rooms ?
It feel stupid when run through long instances again and again just to finish some boss in the end of road.
Waste time active need removed.
have to say that current instances are bad design because it waste too much time for running A to B active , they need to remove useless part and just instance what needed aka "Boss"
Mcdonalds serves billions because its the cheapest option.
WoW isn't the cheapest option, and in some cases is actually the more expensive option. If you have a number of choices that all cost the same or less, the fact that you pick the one game that STILL has a subscription to it means something
The Callous Heart quest in Asheron's Call provided an interesting approach to the design you describe. Players went through and did the quest, and on completion they were sent to an NPC that would give them an allotment of portal gems (weekly?) they could use to access the final dungeon. This allowed players that completed the quest to do the boss encounter at their leisure, with their preferred group, and in their own instance while leaving the main quest portion public.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem being that there are currently two types of gameplay found in MMORPGs:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You have your likings and I have mine.. I prefer a fight that allows for multiple endings and a variety of ways of defeating the boss.. The issue I have with instanced boss dances is that there is ONLY ONE way to dance the dance.. The devs program a boss fight from start to finish and any deviation from that dance = WIPE.. That is not challenging nor fun to me.. I'm being forced to dance THEIR dance, and not mine.. It's obvious you like it, and it's equally obvious that others don't.. Just as I hate groups being forced to play the HOLY TRINITY game, I believe and ask for MORE.. I'm a bit disappointed that classes are homogenized into 3 roles and bosses are nothing more then Simon Says dance moves..
WoW was almost nothing like this Pre Myst. Most every fight really amounted to "Kill adds, get out of fire, attack boss". This is far different from the earlier MMO's where they took oldschool themes like resistances, certain classes having innate strengths to monsters, whether you attacked from melee or ranged, or what have you. Im some games, things like times of day, weather patterns, and how fast you were killing them affected the enemies overall strength.
WoW completely got rid of this concept for the most part because they specifically didn't want certain classes to excel at certain fights while others failed. They also didn't want fights to involve people doing massive amounts of studying just to succeed
KB.. you sorta went a direction I was going to go with what WoW's philosophy was.. WoW's raiding from where I sat felt like Esport.. Back in the day of EQ's raiding, everyone had the opportunity to raid, and much of the gear wasn't tiered.. It was more about resistance and pools.. When my guild did raids in ToV, everyone was invited and we all worked on the Dragon point system. No one was told, "sorry no room for you tonight".. and we didn't have the drama that restrictive raids in WoW caused..
I personally believe that WoW really wanted to promote the esport mentality in both PvP and PvE game play.. Having raid lockouts, which lead to primary raid groups, to back ups, etc etc, caused a separation within guilds and cliques.. Besides the guild that I was officer in, I never saw a guild that allowed for equal rotation in raiding.. or heroics.. Our guild promoted that EVERYONE gets a seat on the bus, and we kept record of who has raided or who hasn't.. Because of lockouts, Blizz made our job that much harder, in scheduling fair and equal opportunities..
This is another reason why I support open world events.. NO MORE LOCKOUTS.. I find that one of the most anti-social hindrance mechanics in gaming today..
There is absolutely no need for instances,the ONLY reason they exist is because they are cheaper more cost effective for the developer,they do NOTHING for the gamer.
Then to support this cheaper,lazier design devs made sure to put the best rewards inside of these instances,so nobody would complain.Basically like telling your employee to clean the washrooms, NO WAY,i'll pay you double ! ...OK :P.
There is a place for instance gaming,it is called single player games,where your entire game is like one big instance because you are the only one there.If we are playing a MMO and the game puts a MMO tag on it's title,it had better well operate like a MMO and not a single player or co op game.
The ONLY time you might use an instance in a MMO is to support LOCKED content or a story line.However even then you don't NEED to utilize an instance,they are NEVER needed.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The difference between instance/lockout versus openworld/spawn is that, in an openworld fight, if group has a mob, then the entire server has to wait. Lockouts for instances are a necessary evil and one that I personally despise, but it really does beat a scenario where I have to physically wait for hours just for someone to kill something that I want to kill.
Lineage 2.
/thread.
GW2, = open world boss = NO one loses..
These are scenarios that happen in open world:
You want to kill Rare spawn? Too bad, other guild is killing Rare spawn. Does rare spawn have a repop? You now have to wait for repop.
You want to level in Zone A? Too bad, Zone A has too many people, go to Zone B for less EXP.
You want tougher fights? Too bad, fights are attuned for a certain small number of people so that everyone gets a chance.
You want easier fights? Too bad, fights are attuned for larger groups of people
You want to just adjust your fights? Too bad, this can't be done without horribly abusing the mechanic.
Instances are not JUST to cut cost. They eliminate a ton of problems associated with open world gameplay, and allow for many new things to be done, such as allowing for more interesting fights based on many different layouts, adjusting strength of the encounter, reducing possibilities of being griefed, etc.