Open world dungeons means someone else is already there camping the boss you want or need, and you will never get that reward or participate in that content meaningfully. Or you do all the work and some Ninja swops in and steals the loot drop. Fans of open dungeons assume this goes hand in hand. If an open world dungeon game doesn't incorporate the exploit they anticipate, then they troll the game as a fail.
Go play GW2 and let me know when and if you get ninja looted or someone KS's you.. When you do, please come back to this forum and tell us how it happen.. We'll be waiting.. TY
People looking for open world dungeons ARE looking for Kill Stealing & Ninja looting. Because you can't in GW2, is WHY GW2 is not the game they are looking for when they say open world dungeon. This is where you say, "oh... never mind..."
No, he'll just tell you why you are wrong and belittle you until you give up and he can say "see, I was right"
Originally posted by Quizzical Even what you would think of as a massive open world, single server design will still use a lot of instancing. If you go kill ten rats and the ten rats are all identical, then guess what: they're ten instances of the same thing.
Ok, but I think you know what people are talking about when they say "no instancing".
They are not referring to the true "technical" usage of the term but that it appears to be an open world where there are no loading screens.
Not no loading screens. You can have loading screens without having instances. There's a difference between a zone and an instance. DAoC had loading screens, but no instances.
ok fine works for me. People mean "an open world".
Though I do think people don't want to see loadin screens if they can help it. However, I do understand the need for them.
then again, as has been said "lineage 2".
Though to be truthful, there are brief loading bits when one enters certain open dungeons.
Indeed. Vanguard is the only game I've played that has MASSIVE dungeons with no loading screens.
Lineage 2 had a few such as the school of dark arts and Tower of insolence and "Giants something", I forget the name. Also forge of the Gods. Othres such as the Catacombs or Cruma had a brief loading screen while you were moved inside. I never quite understood the reason for the catacombs/necropoli because you could clearly see players on the other side so it didn't seem like it was a separate zone from the entrance.
Vanguard had/has an odd issue where sometimes you will get a small freeze while players move over a "chunk" of land into another. Lineage 2 didn't seem to have this issue that I can remember.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Open instances are a thing of the past for "loot-bosses" , why ? is simple, guilds can/will monopolize the bosses (see everyother open dungeons mmorpg) , ppl had alts camping there 24h , boss pop call the guild and kill it.....
or worse stay there for 5h because boss pop window is btw 2:00 and 6:00 and can pop anytime ....wait wait...and fight against bots/hacks to claim the boss .....
if u dont claim try to lag / train the other raid (or PK if able to ) so u can steal the boss .
now leveling in open dungeons? , fighting against 5 other groups, waiting for respawns because everything is killed as soon as pops...../sigh
instanced dungeons exist for a reason and isnt only loot , i rememeber games were u had like 10 healers outside the raid healing....that makes encounter so easy .....
while i enjoy outdoor leveling in groups , for dungeons instances is the way to go
Devs can go and script bosses/ encounters or the whole dungeon
Vanguard had issues. No one will deny it. And performance was one of them, but that was bad code, not the open dungeons. But I'm okay to say that you need better hardware for a non-instanced game.
And for the dude discussing instancing vs computer models etc. Instancing is to copy the world for a group to enjoy on the same server. I prefer everyone on the same server to be present in the same world, that I could touch every player if I walked up to them. I realize that that's not always possible and that servers and bigger instances might be required.
But back to Vanguard as I saw it being mentioned a few times and people jump over it and counter it with tank n spank, I laugh at people who only seen the tank and spank fights, as the game offers a lot of diverse tactics. Yes there are tank and spank fights, but there are also great tactics fights. The amount of scripting done in some areas is great. Raid fights with adeptive fights, some newer areas with mobs and bosses that think. Overland dungeons with enough fights to keep most of the players busy in the early days. Yes you will walk over players, it's open, but at the same time you could be somewhere completely different.
But to be honest, hate to say it, but neither system is better or worst. If games are released with either system and both systems can be choosen by players preference it would be awesome imho. I'd prefer open worlds, spoiled that way. The problem with instancing was that devs get lazy. You get 5 small dungeons in stead of 10 big dungeons to hold multiple groups. You see devs making the no-trash mobs and only bosses in other games, things that are a lot harder to do in open world dungeons. If you make small dungeons, everyone will be at the bosses and stay there.
The problem with both systems is the players being satisfied with weak excuses for dungeons and devs making those cheap dungeons. Devs should add good drops throughout the dungeon, that way dungeons can be longer and players can choose to spend 30 mins or 5 hours in one dungeon.
And story is in all dungeons. Stories are being told. In EQ and VG the story is in the world and in games like SWToR the story is being told in cutscenes. I prefer worlds over games, so rather have story being told by everyone who lives in it, books I find, quests I complete, mobs I see, not just a person telling me the story. SWToR did a good job and it was a fun game, I enjoyed it, but at the same time it was a single player MMO game.
Open world dungeons means someone else is already there camping the boss you want or need, and you will never get that reward or participate in that content meaningfully. Or you do all the work and some Ninja swops in and steals the loot drop. Fans of open dungeons assume this goes hand in hand. If an open world dungeon game doesn't incorporate the exploit they anticipate, then they troll the game as a fail.
Go play GW2 and let me know when and if you get ninja looted or someone KS's you.. When you do, please come back to this forum and tell us how it happen.. We'll be waiting.. TY
People looking for open world dungeons ARE looking for Kill Stealing & Ninja looting. Because you can't in GW2, is WHY GW2 is not the game they are looking for when they say open world dungeon. This is where you say, "oh... never mind..."
No, he'll just tell you why you are wrong and belittle you until you give up and he can say "see, I was right"
tisk tisk.. you must of not been reading this thread much.. I have been a HUGE fan of GW2 and current use it as the most modern MMO to date that brings open world raiding and events BACK to the genre.. I know you can't ninja loot or KS in GW2 and is why I told the gent I was responding to that if he feels that open world is so evil , he need to go play GW2 some.. My perfect game would be to marry GW2 with EQ and I'd be happy.. I'm not a fan of private gaming, and I believe that there are safety protocols to keep people from abusing the open world... KUDO's to GW2 as a start in the right direction..
Originally posted by Skuall Open instances are a thing of the past for "loot-bosses" , why ? is simple, guilds can/will monopolize the bosses (see everyother open dungeons mmorpg) , ppl had alts camping there 24h , boss pop call the guild and kill it.....
or worse stay there for 5h because boss pop window is btw 2:00 and 6:00 and can pop anytime ....wait wait...and fight against bots/hacks to claim the boss .....
if u dont claim try to lag / train the other raid (or PK if able to ) so u can steal the boss .
now leveling in open dungeons? , fighting against 5 other groups, waiting for respawns because everything is killed as soon as pops...../sigh
instanced dungeons exist for a reason and isnt only loot , i rememeber games were u had like 10 healers outside the raid healing....that makes encounter so easy .....
while i enjoy outdoor leveling in groups , for dungeons instances is the way to go
Devs can go and script bosses/ encounters or the whole dungeon
Yeah .. instanced dungeons let developers tuned the level of challenge much better .. and even allows for an difficulty option like in WOW and DDO.
It would be much harder to have a difficulty option in an open world dungeon. And it does not take a genius to realize that different players want different levels of challenge.
Yeah .. instanced dungeons let developers tuned the level of challenge much better .. and even allows for an difficulty option like in WOW and DDO.
It would be much harder to have a difficulty option in an open world dungeon. And it does not take a genius to realize that different players want different levels of challenge.
That's one of the points that several here seem to have taken issue with - letting the players choose their difficulty level. To me, that's more choice for the player. It's letting the player have the optimal gaming experience. The argument against it is always presented as players taking the easy road, while ignoring that most occurrences of it already in games allow players to raise the challenge level, not lower it, as lowering it is easily done by simply outleveling it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I said other, but that's because my option wasn't listed.
I'd want instances, but they would be instances that uninvited strangers could jump into, if they saw you go in one.
Like in CoH, when a mission was created that led you to door. It's a new instance, but if someone saw you sneak in the door, the person could jump in (unlike CoH).
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
As of 8:50 PM MT; July 22.. With 250 votes at current, the standings are..
60.4% Favoring some form of Open-World dungeons
27.2% Favoring some form of Instanced dungeons
12.4% Favoring another option or mixture of both dungeon types..
Heavy leanings toward open-world dungeons, but the discussion seems very lively still for the instance side.. Very valid points being made from all corners..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Yeah .. instanced dungeons let developers tuned the level of challenge much better .. and even allows for an difficulty option like in WOW and DDO.
It would be much harder to have a difficulty option in an open world dungeon. And it does not take a genius to realize that different players want different levels of challenge.
That's one of the points that several here seem to have taken issue with - letting the players choose their difficulty level. To me, that's more choice for the player. It's letting the player have the optimal gaming experience. The argument against it is always presented as players taking the easy road, while ignoring that most occurrences of it already in games allow players to raise the challenge level, not lower it, as lowering it is easily done by simply outleveling it.
That is a illogical and bad argument. Difficulty option is always about pve. Why would anyone cares about what difficulties others are playing if they can choose one works for them?
Look at D3. I am no doubt there are those who is doing MP0-2 and takes the easy road. But why would i care? I can do my MP9 if i want to. As you says, choices are good. I don't see a downside for difficulty option at all.
Those who are against it are just trying to force their difficulty upon others ... which is not a good thing.
As of 8:50 PM MT; July 22.. With 250 votes at current, the standings are..
60.4% Favoring some form of Open-World dungeons
27.2% Favoring some form of Instanced dungeons
12.4% Favoring another option or mixture of both dungeon types..
Heavy leanings toward open-world dungeons, but the discussion seems very lively still for the instance side.. Very valid points being made from all corners..
That is very telling statistics. Sounds like instances are not very popular. The developers would be foolish to have instanced dungeons.
Originally posted by Quirhid Do I need to remind you yet again, that MMORPG.com forum community is very different from the larger gaming populace.
Nah, no need. Forums only represent a subset of the community. It's a known fact by most and ignored by a group as well.
The funny thing is for most people making phasing is a good thing. I hate phasing. The reason people wanted phasing, or well a part of the group wanted it at least, was to change the world. The world didn't change with phasing, you are just perceiving it differently. So you didn't change the world, the world didn't get better and you achieved nothing at all.
Property destruction, changing the world, stuff like that should happen in the world. Lazy programmers make instancing and phasing to change things and yet not change anything. Don't work around the problem, solve the real problem.
But I understand, without phasing people can't do their farmville in WoW.
IMHO every action that removes players that are on the same server from the game world to a pocket dimension is wrong. I'm not talking about logging off, but do their own thing, not play with others etc. MMO's are made for a massive group of players, either working together or working against each other to achieve a goal. Find ways to solve the whole I need drop x from mob y for quest z, make them triggered or something like that, but don't get instancing. It doesn't solve the problem, it hides it.
The funny thing is for most people making phasing is a good thing. I hate phasing. The reason people wanted phasing, or well a part of the group wanted it at least, was to change the world. The world didn't change with phasing, you are just perceiving it differently. So you didn't change the world, the world didn't get better and you achieved nothing at all.
Property destruction, changing the world, stuff like that should happen in the world. Lazy programmers make instancing and phasing to change things and yet not change anything. Don't work around the problem, solve the real problem.
I get it you don't like it. But your preference is not the only one, or better than anyone else.
Phasing does allow the illusion of changing the world, and provides a better gameplay experience. Games are about illusions anyway. Any achievement in a game (unless you a pro-esport althelete) is an illusion devs give you anyway.
If phasing makes a game more fun, i am all for it.
The funny thing is for most people making phasing is a good thing. I hate phasing. The reason people wanted phasing, or well a part of the group wanted it at least, was to change the world. The world didn't change with phasing, you are just perceiving it differently. So you didn't change the world, the world didn't get better and you achieved nothing at all.
Property destruction, changing the world, stuff like that should happen in the world. Lazy programmers make instancing and phasing to change things and yet not change anything. Don't work around the problem, solve the real problem.
I get it you don't like it. But your preference is not the only one, or better than anyone else.
Phasing does allow the illusion of changing the world, and provides a better gameplay experience. Games are about illusions anyway. Any achievement in a game (unless you a pro-esport althelete) is an illusion devs give you anyway.
If phasing makes a game more fun, i am all for it.
Phasing only works if you plan on soloing the game.. WoW's phasing is a prime example that it's failure, especially during the LK expansion.. People there were grouped up could NOT enjoy the game together because they were seperated by phasing.. This happen in the general play in Icecrown and Storm Peaks, and it happen even during raids in the the citadel.. Because of that, phasing has no business being in a social MMO..
[...] The funny thing is for most people making phasing is a good thing. I hate phasing. The reason people wanted phasing, or well a part of the group wanted it at least, was to change the world. The world didn't change with phasing, you are just perceiving it differently. So you didn't change the world, the world didn't get better and you achieved nothing at all.
Property destruction, changing the world, stuff like that should happen in the world. Lazy programmers make instancing and phasing to change things and yet not change anything. Don't work around the problem, solve the real problem.
But I understand, without phasing people can't do their farmville in WoW.
IMHO every action that removes players that are on the same server from the game world to a pocket dimension is wrong. I'm not talking about logging off, but do their own thing, not play with others etc. MMO's are made for a massive group of players, either working together or working against each other to achieve a goal. Find ways to solve the whole I need drop x from mob y for quest z, make them triggered or something like that, but don't get instancing. It doesn't solve the problem, it hides it.
Thing is, with property destruction etc. players can and will disrupt other player's fun - intentional or unintentional. A group of veterans/powergamers might steamroll content leaving little to the rest. And while they might have had "an impact" that impact is negative.
How fun it is to queue up to kill a boss? How fun it is enter a dungeon only to find it has been done? Wait for item/mob spawns, endure ninja looting, stealing mobs, PK, griefing etc.? Players are the worst enemy of immersion and they can ruin your fun very easily.
People should give up their foolish principles and ideals and accept what works. Instances, in particular, are a very good solution for any number of problems not to mention bring new possibilities.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Phasing only works if you plan on soloing the game.. WoW's phasing is a prime example that it's failure, especially during the LK expansion.. People there were grouped up could NOT enjoy the game together because they were seperated by phasing.. This happen in the general play in Icecrown and Storm Peaks, and it happen even during raids in the the citadel.. Because of that, phasing has no business being in a social MMO..
Not everyone play MMOs to social. Otherwise why would solo-ing in MMOs became so big. In fact, look at the other thread to see a long list of reasons why players are playing MMOs (other than to social).
No one says you cannot group with LFD even when there is phasing. Who says grouping for open world quests is the only way to group. Heck, in fact, most people are solo-ing open world quests .... so phasing, as you say, will work.
People should give up their foolish principles and ideals and accept what works. Instances, in particular, are a very good solution for any number of problems not to mention bring new possibilities.
Yeh. In fact, there are other ideas like channels, or seamless matching (what destiny claims to do) and other good ideas.
But fear not. The market is very good at finding and using good solutions because it is not controlled by some antiquated notion of what MMOs "should be".
The market is very good at finding and using good solutions because it is not controlled by some antiquated notion of what MMOs "should be".
.I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that's probably why most MMOs are going away from quest hubs, instances, and themepark gameplay in general.
Yes ... and going into MOBAs, instanced pvp games, and online ARPGs with some MMO features. All genre changes. Old school open world MMOs gave way to themaprk quest hubs. Now devs are looking even for newer kind of ideas like the shared world shooter in Destiny.
Let's start by saying games aren't made by devs, they are made by shareholders and smedley. A lot of games start out with good intentions and get shot down by someone who just sees WoW generating more money and wants the same. EQ2 rebuild to be more like WoW, Vanguard rebuild to be more like WoW, SWG rebuild to be more like WoW. I don't know any more for sure, but I bet almost every game has had some features changed and made more like WoW. Devs don't speak, money speaks and people with no idea how games work want green WoW grass.
I know it's what I think and what I want. I know people agree with me. That's also why I put the IMHO rather than just say everyone likes this better.
Property damage works. You just need to work around it, find ways to do things when stuff is destroyed, program alternatives, triggered events etc. The problem is, if you just have x npc's and when they are dead 20 players are waiting for it to spawn again, you did it wrong. For example in EQ1, you had a zone with 3 warring factions. If you helped a faction kill the two other factions, new mobs spawned with better loot. Another example of "destruction" would be sleeper. It was a dragon with super awesome loot. After it's destruction or like on most servers, after he left the game, new items dropped from the mobs that were there.
So you see, if things are written well and sotutions are found, we can move away from WoW's fixes, which are imho not that great, they just work, to a more creative way of fixing the problem. I'm also not in the illusion that everyone will like that kind of gameplay, but why only make wow clones, or games that have features like instancing, phasing etc. I think if one game has instancing and phasing, why not make another game that also open world dungeons, maybe raids in an instance, I can see good reasons for something like that.
But instancing really has made dungeons worst, not better. The extra money saved is not put back into the game. Yes, some companies are making really good things, but others are just using the system to cut corners, make multiple difficulties of the same dungeon and that's just 3 levels of play, press any button to win, be a bit smarter to win or the way it was designed before we nerfed it.
To me open world means big, it does not matter if we have to zone quite a bit as long as the MMO looks like a world not a ribbon of land that connects some quest hubs.
Comments
No, he'll just tell you why you are wrong and belittle you until you give up and he can say "see, I was right"
Lineage 2 had a few such as the school of dark arts and Tower of insolence and "Giants something", I forget the name. Also forge of the Gods. Othres such as the Catacombs or Cruma had a brief loading screen while you were moved inside. I never quite understood the reason for the catacombs/necropoli because you could clearly see players on the other side so it didn't seem like it was a separate zone from the entrance.
Vanguard had/has an odd issue where sometimes you will get a small freeze while players move over a "chunk" of land into another. Lineage 2 didn't seem to have this issue that I can remember.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
or worse stay there for 5h because boss pop window is btw 2:00 and 6:00 and can pop anytime ....wait wait...and fight against bots/hacks to claim the boss .....
if u dont claim try to lag / train the other raid (or PK if able to ) so u can steal the boss .
now leveling in open dungeons? , fighting against 5 other groups, waiting for respawns because everything is killed as soon as pops...../sigh
instanced dungeons exist for a reason and isnt only loot , i rememeber games were u had like 10 healers outside the raid healing....that makes encounter so easy .....
while i enjoy outdoor leveling in groups
, for dungeons instances is the way to go
Devs can go and script bosses/ encounters or the whole dungeon
Vanguard had issues. No one will deny it. And performance was one of them, but that was bad code, not the open dungeons. But I'm okay to say that you need better hardware for a non-instanced game.
And for the dude discussing instancing vs computer models etc. Instancing is to copy the world for a group to enjoy on the same server. I prefer everyone on the same server to be present in the same world, that I could touch every player if I walked up to them. I realize that that's not always possible and that servers and bigger instances might be required.
But back to Vanguard as I saw it being mentioned a few times and people jump over it and counter it with tank n spank, I laugh at people who only seen the tank and spank fights, as the game offers a lot of diverse tactics. Yes there are tank and spank fights, but there are also great tactics fights. The amount of scripting done in some areas is great. Raid fights with adeptive fights, some newer areas with mobs and bosses that think. Overland dungeons with enough fights to keep most of the players busy in the early days. Yes you will walk over players, it's open, but at the same time you could be somewhere completely different.
But to be honest, hate to say it, but neither system is better or worst. If games are released with either system and both systems can be choosen by players preference it would be awesome imho. I'd prefer open worlds, spoiled that way. The problem with instancing was that devs get lazy. You get 5 small dungeons in stead of 10 big dungeons to hold multiple groups. You see devs making the no-trash mobs and only bosses in other games, things that are a lot harder to do in open world dungeons. If you make small dungeons, everyone will be at the bosses and stay there.
The problem with both systems is the players being satisfied with weak excuses for dungeons and devs making those cheap dungeons. Devs should add good drops throughout the dungeon, that way dungeons can be longer and players can choose to spend 30 mins or 5 hours in one dungeon.
And story is in all dungeons. Stories are being told. In EQ and VG the story is in the world and in games like SWToR the story is being told in cutscenes. I prefer worlds over games, so rather have story being told by everyone who lives in it, books I find, quests I complete, mobs I see, not just a person telling me the story. SWToR did a good job and it was a fun game, I enjoyed it, but at the same time it was a single player MMO game.
tisk tisk.. you must of not been reading this thread much.. I have been a HUGE fan of GW2 and current use it as the most modern MMO to date that brings open world raiding and events BACK to the genre.. I know you can't ninja loot or KS in GW2 and is why I told the gent I was responding to that if he feels that open world is so evil , he need to go play GW2 some.. My perfect game would be to marry GW2 with EQ and I'd be happy.. I'm not a fan of private gaming, and I believe that there are safety protocols to keep people from abusing the open world... KUDO's to GW2 as a start in the right direction..
Yeah .. instanced dungeons let developers tuned the level of challenge much better .. and even allows for an difficulty option like in WOW and DDO.
It would be much harder to have a difficulty option in an open world dungeon. And it does not take a genius to realize that different players want different levels of challenge.
That's one of the points that several here seem to have taken issue with - letting the players choose their difficulty level. To me, that's more choice for the player. It's letting the player have the optimal gaming experience. The argument against it is always presented as players taking the easy road, while ignoring that most occurrences of it already in games allow players to raise the challenge level, not lower it, as lowering it is easily done by simply outleveling it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I said other, but that's because my option wasn't listed.
I'd want instances, but they would be instances that uninvited strangers could jump into, if they saw you go in one.
Like in CoH, when a mission was created that led you to door. It's a new instance, but if someone saw you sneak in the door, the person could jump in (unlike CoH).
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
As of 8:50 PM MT; July 22.. With 250 votes at current, the standings are..
60.4% Favoring some form of Open-World dungeons
27.2% Favoring some form of Instanced dungeons
12.4% Favoring another option or mixture of both dungeon types..
Heavy leanings toward open-world dungeons, but the discussion seems very lively still for the instance side.. Very valid points being made from all corners..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
That is a illogical and bad argument. Difficulty option is always about pve. Why would anyone cares about what difficulties others are playing if they can choose one works for them?
Look at D3. I am no doubt there are those who is doing MP0-2 and takes the easy road. But why would i care? I can do my MP9 if i want to. As you says, choices are good. I don't see a downside for difficulty option at all.
Those who are against it are just trying to force their difficulty upon others ... which is not a good thing.
That is very telling statistics. Sounds like instances are not very popular. The developers would be foolish to have instanced dungeons.
Definitely.. I have Blizzard on the phone right now.. Instances shall go the way of the dodo..
Not.. Hehe.. Sarcasm and humor aside.. I merely observe.. And tiny cross-section of the gaming populace it may be, its still very interesting..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Nah, no need. Forums only represent a subset of the community. It's a known fact by most and ignored by a group as well.
The funny thing is for most people making phasing is a good thing. I hate phasing. The reason people wanted phasing, or well a part of the group wanted it at least, was to change the world. The world didn't change with phasing, you are just perceiving it differently. So you didn't change the world, the world didn't get better and you achieved nothing at all.
Property destruction, changing the world, stuff like that should happen in the world. Lazy programmers make instancing and phasing to change things and yet not change anything. Don't work around the problem, solve the real problem.
But I understand, without phasing people can't do their farmville in WoW.
IMHO every action that removes players that are on the same server from the game world to a pocket dimension is wrong. I'm not talking about logging off, but do their own thing, not play with others etc. MMO's are made for a massive group of players, either working together or working against each other to achieve a goal. Find ways to solve the whole I need drop x from mob y for quest z, make them triggered or something like that, but don't get instancing. It doesn't solve the problem, it hides it.
I get it you don't like it. But your preference is not the only one, or better than anyone else.
Phasing does allow the illusion of changing the world, and provides a better gameplay experience. Games are about illusions anyway. Any achievement in a game (unless you a pro-esport althelete) is an illusion devs give you anyway.
If phasing makes a game more fun, i am all for it.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Phasing only works if you plan on soloing the game.. WoW's phasing is a prime example that it's failure, especially during the LK expansion.. People there were grouped up could NOT enjoy the game together because they were seperated by phasing.. This happen in the general play in Icecrown and Storm Peaks, and it happen even during raids in the the citadel.. Because of that, phasing has no business being in a social MMO..
Nope.. It would appear I already know this very well.. Thank you though..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Thing is, with property destruction etc. players can and will disrupt other player's fun - intentional or unintentional. A group of veterans/powergamers might steamroll content leaving little to the rest. And while they might have had "an impact" that impact is negative.
How fun it is to queue up to kill a boss? How fun it is enter a dungeon only to find it has been done? Wait for item/mob spawns, endure ninja looting, stealing mobs, PK, griefing etc.? Players are the worst enemy of immersion and they can ruin your fun very easily.
People should give up their foolish principles and ideals and accept what works. Instances, in particular, are a very good solution for any number of problems not to mention bring new possibilities.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Not everyone play MMOs to social. Otherwise why would solo-ing in MMOs became so big. In fact, look at the other thread to see a long list of reasons why players are playing MMOs (other than to social).
No one says you cannot group with LFD even when there is phasing. Who says grouping for open world quests is the only way to group. Heck, in fact, most people are solo-ing open world quests .... so phasing, as you say, will work.
Yeh. In fact, there are other ideas like channels, or seamless matching (what destiny claims to do) and other good ideas.
But fear not. The market is very good at finding and using good solutions because it is not controlled by some antiquated notion of what MMOs "should be".
.I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that's probably why most MMOs are going away from quest hubs, instances, and themepark gameplay in general.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Yes ... and going into MOBAs, instanced pvp games, and online ARPGs with some MMO features. All genre changes. Old school open world MMOs gave way to themaprk quest hubs. Now devs are looking even for newer kind of ideas like the shared world shooter in Destiny.
The power of market and change.
Let's start by saying games aren't made by devs, they are made by shareholders and smedley. A lot of games start out with good intentions and get shot down by someone who just sees WoW generating more money and wants the same. EQ2 rebuild to be more like WoW, Vanguard rebuild to be more like WoW, SWG rebuild to be more like WoW. I don't know any more for sure, but I bet almost every game has had some features changed and made more like WoW. Devs don't speak, money speaks and people with no idea how games work want green WoW grass.
I know it's what I think and what I want. I know people agree with me. That's also why I put the IMHO rather than just say everyone likes this better.
Property damage works. You just need to work around it, find ways to do things when stuff is destroyed, program alternatives, triggered events etc. The problem is, if you just have x npc's and when they are dead 20 players are waiting for it to spawn again, you did it wrong. For example in EQ1, you had a zone with 3 warring factions. If you helped a faction kill the two other factions, new mobs spawned with better loot. Another example of "destruction" would be sleeper. It was a dragon with super awesome loot. After it's destruction or like on most servers, after he left the game, new items dropped from the mobs that were there.
So you see, if things are written well and sotutions are found, we can move away from WoW's fixes, which are imho not that great, they just work, to a more creative way of fixing the problem. I'm also not in the illusion that everyone will like that kind of gameplay, but why only make wow clones, or games that have features like instancing, phasing etc. I think if one game has instancing and phasing, why not make another game that also open world dungeons, maybe raids in an instance, I can see good reasons for something like that.
But instancing really has made dungeons worst, not better. The extra money saved is not put back into the game. Yes, some companies are making really good things, but others are just using the system to cut corners, make multiple difficulties of the same dungeon and that's just 3 levels of play, press any button to win, be a bit smarter to win or the way it was designed before we nerfed it.