10% exp loss (5 stacks max) 50%-75% of current gained exp goes to exp debt. like in EQOA.
hopefully the leveling wil be rather slow wich makes dying a pure sin to do. you do not want to die:P
Again, completely worthless once a character reaches max level.
it should be an achievment to reach that max level. And when u are maxx level you have been so protetive of your character that you know how to behave when crawling with people trough dungeons.
i know first thing i did when i hit max level in EQOA was go to a place where this centaur skeleton was wich was always red. and still was and attacked him. but you learned how to survive in the game and you will not make stupid pulls.
I'm thinking that the natural evolution to death is to get rewarded.
Much like religion, where you get the real phat lootz in the afterlife. That way, people can deal with it better without as many tears.
This idea also fixes PvP problems.
You die, you get epic gear, with wings used to smite your enemies & deal out some revenge. Then when your enemies die, they won't be so spastic either because they get a sparkley mount.
After experiencing the EQ death penalty, early release and later versions I was forever scarred. In every game played since then I avoid death like the plague, regardless of if death has no consequence or not.
That kind of impression is what I want to see make a resurgence in modern MMOs. I want to make my choices count. Risk vs reward is sorely lacking in games today and this needs to change. Bring back a death penalty that is severe enough to cause players to act responsibly and with a little foresight.
Originally posted by Mahavishnu The same old discussion. Reading this forums one could get the impression, that most MMO-players would prefer hard death penalties. However, when you look at the MMO-market you actually can see, that most players stick to games like WoW only to complain all the time, that MMOs have become too easy. This is soooo funny.
I think it's more that the majority of the MMO-market don't read MMORPG (or any MMO related website, most gamers don't go to their favorite game official forums either). These places are filled by the more hardcore players or whinners.
As for the OP, I do not like a game forcing me to redo content I already completed or farming money to pay the bills (or for insurance). It just feel too much like an external system that exist to force me to play more by farming/grinding. They never felt to me like a system that tell people to avoid death, they always felt like a money/time sink that penalize exploration and experimentation.
Although, I did like DAoC little tombstone. It was cute.
Now though, I think something should happen on death, but it should be a fun experience. Dev want players to lose time, well make it fun. I always though that having a "death plane" with puzzles and encounters that you need to solve so you can revive yourself was an interesting idea. I think something like that was tried in a game, but I don't remember wish one. Of course, other players could still rez you in the "real" game world.
Its not gonna happen, but I want the old eq death penalty back, struggling to recover your corpse, de-lvl, all that good stuff.
I don't remeber the last time I actually feared death in a mmo outside of eq and mabye darkfall.
Making players think twice about the mobs they attack or the cave they enter was a positive thing, it also helped with the lifespan of the game, as you couldnt just keep challenging mobs way above your ability to level up without risking delvling.
Originally posted by Mahavishnu However, when you look at the MMO-market you actually can see, that most players stick to games like WoW only to complain all the time, that MMOs have become too easy. This is soooo funny.
Do you actually have some sort of a psych study to back this up? Because looking at the market doesn't tell you squat in this department. Not to mention, there's plenty of evidence that a large chunk of the market doesn't mind harsh death penalties at all.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Debuff for X time that lowers stats, decreases XP or whatever progress bar gain, decreases amount you can sell loot for (merchants don't want to deal with those marked wit death).
Item damage (would like normal wear and tear in general as well)
Lose some XP but gain half back if you retreive corpse.
Need a system that makes us afraid to die but not so bad that one death erases a days worth of progress. I think death should be common but not a free ride back to town. Don't want to spend half my time retrieving corpse but don't want to forget the last time I died either due to taking the safe route.
Originally posted by Mahavishnu The same old discussion. Reading this forums one could get the impression, that most MMO-players would prefer hard death penalties. However, when you look at the MMO-market you actually can see, that most players stick to games like WoW only to complain all the time, that MMOs have become too easy. This is soooo funny.
If you look at the market, most players DON'T stick to games like WoW. The list of failed themeparks is looooong. And there haven't been any harsh death penalty AAA MMOs to measure against, so, what you're saying it totally false.
My idea for a death "penalty" would be to have a points system, let's call it Karma. You build up Karma by playing the game. Certain tasks award more Karma than others. Karma could then be spent to rez players. Any player could rez, even self rez, though self rezzing would cost significantly more Karma.
With this system, players could build up their Karma before entering that big, scary dungeon, rather than pay the penalty on the back end. If there is no Karma left to rez you, you have to rez at the nearest temple. And you'll want to build up your Karma again before the next dungeon run, but you can do that at your leisure. Players who play well will be rewarded by not having to grind stuff that gives high Karma, and by not running out of Karma in the middle of a dungeon run.
Karma could also be used for other stuff too, like providing buffs, improving the results of crafting, etc.
Originally posted by Aelious I think a penalty surrounding item degradation would be suitable and I'm also hoping xp isn't a thing (at least not overall levels). There should be a reason to fear death but I don't think old EQ penalties are very realistic for what will be in EQN. Maybe 25% item damage per death on top of normal use damage. I don't think it should ever become useable but will need mats to keep it fixed up if damaged. A crafting tie-in maybe?
I like the idea of a major hit on the durability of the item. If crafting was required to repair an item, there would have to be a system setup so you didn't have to send it to the crafter via trade so there was no chance to just outright lose it.
An issue I see with requiring crafting though is that you would have everyone taking up a craft just to repair their items and that would ultimately defeat the purpose. Now, if there was an option to go to an NPC and pay a fee and the crafting materials while crafters could do it as well just for the cost of the materials then there may be enough incentive to look for a crafter, but not enough to level up crafting.
I honestly don't want a system that just becomes a gold sink though. That is really bad design. There needs to be item sinks to prevent item inflation and gold sinks are a lot easier to implement.
I was thinking something similar. What about even tying crafters into the repair NPCs directly? Say the repair NPCs require supply from crafters. Crafters make some type of tools/repair kits, and sell/supply them to the Blacksmith or whatever. Crafter gets a cut based on the level/repair quality of the items they supply. More player economy, please.
I am still worried though that having item repair turns the death penalty into a gold sink. Worse if it is primarily the crafters that repair, you end up with neither a gold sink nor an item sink as both will stay in circulation. Gold sinks can come from a variety of things, but very few things can institute an item sink.
There's just honestly no reason to have a repair mechanism. People will simply buy a new item to replace the one they lost and the crafters will benefit in the process, even if items don't solely come from crafting. People will only wear what the can afford to lose.
You could combine permanent item damage with temporary item damage. When the character dies, his items lose 25% durability permanently, but they also lose stats, damage, and defense which can be repaired.
I think permanent durability loss is the real answer when it comes to player-driven economies. But, can we really see it happening? It'd be great, I just don't see them doing it. I think some small amount of durability damage would be more feasible, 25% is a gigantic chunk when people work hard for gear. And, given how often people die in MMOs, your gear would be broken full time.
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Lokero
I was thinking something similar. What about even tying crafters into the repair NPCs directly? Say the repair NPCs require supply from crafters. Crafters make some type of tools/repair kits, and sell/supply them to the Blacksmith or whatever. Crafter gets a cut based on the level/repair quality of the items they supply. More player economy, please.
Wouldn't it just be simpler to have the crafter repair your gear directly instead of going through a NPC then? You could just implement a cost for the crafter in supplies and if you want to, add a specific rate.
Definitely would be better to just make repairs require crafters, but I imagine they'll aim more at convenience when it comes to this. It certainly wouldn't be convenient for people to have to track down a crafter constantly. That said, my ideal scenario would be player-run shops where the owner gets a cut of whatever, I think that'd really simplify the whole lot. With a shop, you could go either way really, if you wanted the convenience of NPCs there to repair gear.
I'd like to see EQ's penalties brought back, or maybe EQ's penalties, but with coffins available for all levels so that you can get your gear back even if it is expensive.
After experiencing the EQ death penalty, early release and later versions I was forever scarred. In every game played since then I avoid death like the plague, regardless of if death has no consequence or not.
That kind of impression is what I want to see make a resurgence in modern MMOs. I want to make my choices count. Risk vs reward is sorely lacking in games today and this needs to change. Bring back a death penalty that is severe enough to cause players to act responsibly and with a little foresight.
I saw the major drawback to the EQ1 death penalty as a fear spell being cast on entire groups. Whenever you would pull a few extra mobs or something, in alot of groups, people would freak out because there might be a tiny risk of dying. I found it rather pathetic and annoying. The people who were constantly afraid of doing anything that might cause them to die really killed some excitement. Granted, this was largely an issue with PUGs, rather than your friends, but it still happened.
So, I guess, despite the death penalty in EQ, I was always taking risks and trying to push the limits. I rather enjoyed massive pulls in groups, and trying to solo things I shouldn't have been able to. I'm more interested in the challenge than the potential consequences. If the death penalty is holding people back from throwing a little risk and excitement in their game, then it's too harsh in my book.
The main things I don't want to see return are: Level loss(hate that with a passion) and Naked corpse runs. Those are just bad mechanics, in my book.
Things I don't mind: Item decay; Exp loss/debt; Stat debuffs; Optional running back to corpse/grave site to recover some of your coin or some such thing.
Originally posted by DavisFlight I want it to sting. Not so much that it's crippling, but I want to desperately avoid death. If there's ever a point where I think "yeah it'd be easier to just kill myself than walk home" it's probably too light. (though this was a thing I did in DAoC, when your first death of a new level had a much lower death penalty, so after a long night of killing and leveling, it wasn't so bad.)
I agree. Death penalty should really make players want to avoid it at all times. Loss to experience gained, a block of experience to be gained or costly item repairs are good ways.
Originally posted by MMOExposed What sort of death penalty do you believe EQNEXT will have?
It has to sting enough so that players never choose to die on purpose in exchange for the convenience of porting to the town they are headed to anyway. Dying in game ought to always be something to be avoided.
That said, I think the only way to achieve this is with some experience penalty. Can't do with with item wear alone, because that is just gold and folks will spend gold to travel from A to B. Has to be something EVERYONE wants to avoid, and experience penalties usually accomplish this.
Experience penalties become absolutely worthless after the player reaches max level. Item degradation is as punishing as you want it to be. Money is time, no different than any experience loss. If you can't just repair your gear for a small amount then item degradation becomes a lot more punishing. Also, if you don't allow item repair, you have the extra benefit of removing items from the game and creating more demand for them instead of a constant inflation of items.
Originally posted by MMOExposed What sort of death penalty do you believe EQNEXT will have?
It has to sting enough so that players never choose to die on purpose in exchange for the convenience of porting to the town they are headed to anyway. Dying in game ought to always be something to be avoided.
That said, I think the only way to achieve this is with some experience penalty. Can't do with with item wear alone, because that is just gold and folks will spend gold to travel from A to B. Has to be something EVERYONE wants to avoid, and experience penalties usually accomplish this.
Experience penalties become absolutely worthless after the player reaches max level. Item degradation is as punishing as you want it to be. Money is time, no different than any experience loss. If you can't just repair your gear for a small amount then item degradation becomes a lot more punishing. Also, if you don't allow item repair, you have the extra benefit of removing items from the game and creating more demand for them instead of a constant inflation of items.
And money penalties are absolutely worthless right from the start. All someone has to do is give you some chump change (as a higher level character) and suddenly, death means nothing. Then you run into the issues of players demanding money from one another for getting each other killed. No. Stick with some sort of xp loss.
Originally posted by MMOExposed What sort of death penalty do you believe EQNEXT will have?
It has to sting enough so that players never choose to die on purpose in exchange for the convenience of porting to the town they are headed to anyway. Dying in game ought to always be something to be avoided.
That said, I think the only way to achieve this is with some experience penalty. Can't do with with item wear alone, because that is just gold and folks will spend gold to travel from A to B. Has to be something EVERYONE wants to avoid, and experience penalties usually accomplish this.
Experience penalties become absolutely worthless after the player reaches max level. Item degradation is as punishing as you want it to be. Money is time, no different than any experience loss. If you can't just repair your gear for a small amount then item degradation becomes a lot more punishing. Also, if you don't allow item repair, you have the extra benefit of removing items from the game and creating more demand for them instead of a constant inflation of items.
And money penalties are absolutely worthless right from the start. All someone has to do is give you some chump change (as a higher level character) and suddenly, death means nothing. Then you run into the issues of players demanding money from one another for getting each other killed. No. Stick with some sort of xp loss.
So? Someone given money is going to die less simply because he has better gear. Early levels should start off easier. The most difficult gameplay and harshest penalties should come from when you are max level. Experience loss is a regressive system that makes it less punishing to be max level than starting from the beginning.
Original eq1 penalty is perfect (meaning if you aren't rezzed and revive you are naked for your corpse run). The fact that you can lose a level if you die to many times was great. For those who say once you reached max level that it didn't matter anymore, simple fix for that is take more xp at death when you are max level.
Originally posted by strykr619 Original eq1 penalty is perfect (meaning if you aren't rezzed and revive you are naked for your corpse run). The fact that you can lose a level if you die to many times was great. For those who say once you reached max level that it didn't matter anymore, simple fix for that is take more xp at death when you are max level.
Then you just create a game of nothing but perpetual experience grind, all without any gain whatsoever. That is not even remotely fun.
Comments
WANT:
you die in a dungeon - your corpse is eating dirt in the dungeon with all your gear
naked gear recovery FTW
EXPECT:
something lame like the death mechanics in WOW
EQ2 fan sites
10% exp loss (5 stacks max) 50%-75% of current gained exp goes to exp debt. like in EQOA.
hopefully the leveling wil be rather slow wich makes dying a pure sin to do. you do not want to die:P
Again, completely worthless once a character reaches max level.
it should be an achievment to reach that max level. And when u are maxx level you have been so protetive of your character that you know how to behave when crawling with people trough dungeons.
i know first thing i did when i hit max level in EQOA was go to a place where this centaur skeleton was wich was always red. and still was and attacked him. but you learned how to survive in the game and you will not make stupid pulls.
This in combination with gear durability ofc.
I'm thinking that the natural evolution to death is to get rewarded.
Much like religion, where you get the real phat lootz in the afterlife. That way, people can deal with it better without as many tears.
This idea also fixes PvP problems.
You die, you get epic gear, with wings used to smite your enemies & deal out some revenge. Then when your enemies die, they won't be so spastic either because they get a sparkley mount.
After experiencing the EQ death penalty, early release and later versions I was forever scarred. In every game played since then I avoid death like the plague, regardless of if death has no consequence or not.
That kind of impression is what I want to see make a resurgence in modern MMOs. I want to make my choices count. Risk vs reward is sorely lacking in games today and this needs to change. Bring back a death penalty that is severe enough to cause players to act responsibly and with a little foresight.
I think it's more that the majority of the MMO-market don't read MMORPG (or any MMO related website, most gamers don't go to their favorite game official forums either). These places are filled by the more hardcore players or whinners.
As for the OP, I do not like a game forcing me to redo content I already completed or farming money to pay the bills (or for insurance). It just feel too much like an external system that exist to force me to play more by farming/grinding. They never felt to me like a system that tell people to avoid death, they always felt like a money/time sink that penalize exploration and experimentation.
Although, I did like DAoC little tombstone. It was cute.
Now though, I think something should happen on death, but it should be a fun experience. Dev want players to lose time, well make it fun. I always though that having a "death plane" with puzzles and encounters that you need to solve so you can revive yourself was an interesting idea. I think something like that was tried in a game, but I don't remember wish one. Of course, other players could still rez you in the "real" game world.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Its not gonna happen, but I want the old eq death penalty back, struggling to recover your corpse, de-lvl, all that good stuff.
I don't remeber the last time I actually feared death in a mmo outside of eq and mabye darkfall.
Making players think twice about the mobs they attack or the cave they enter was a positive thing, it also helped with the lifespan of the game, as you couldnt just keep challenging mobs way above your ability to level up without risking delvling.
Do you actually have some sort of a psych study to back this up? Because looking at the market doesn't tell you squat in this department. Not to mention, there's plenty of evidence that a large chunk of the market doesn't mind harsh death penalties at all.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Debuff for X time that lowers stats, decreases XP or whatever progress bar gain, decreases amount you can sell loot for (merchants don't want to deal with those marked wit death).
Item damage (would like normal wear and tear in general as well)
Lose some XP but gain half back if you retreive corpse.
Need a system that makes us afraid to die but not so bad that one death erases a days worth of progress. I think death should be common but not a free ride back to town. Don't want to spend half my time retrieving corpse but don't want to forget the last time I died either due to taking the safe route.
If you look at the market, most players DON'T stick to games like WoW. The list of failed themeparks is looooong. And there haven't been any harsh death penalty AAA MMOs to measure against, so, what you're saying it totally false.
My idea for a death "penalty" would be to have a points system, let's call it Karma. You build up Karma by playing the game. Certain tasks award more Karma than others. Karma could then be spent to rez players. Any player could rez, even self rez, though self rezzing would cost significantly more Karma.
With this system, players could build up their Karma before entering that big, scary dungeon, rather than pay the penalty on the back end. If there is no Karma left to rez you, you have to rez at the nearest temple. And you'll want to build up your Karma again before the next dungeon run, but you can do that at your leisure. Players who play well will be rewarded by not having to grind stuff that gives high Karma, and by not running out of Karma in the middle of a dungeon run.
Karma could also be used for other stuff too, like providing buffs, improving the results of crafting, etc.
I'd like to see EQ's penalties brought back, or maybe EQ's penalties, but with coffins available for all levels so that you can get your gear back even if it is expensive.
Asdar
I hope that when I die I will immediately be leveled to max level and geared with the best gear in the game.
Anything less is unacceptable.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I saw the major drawback to the EQ1 death penalty as a fear spell being cast on entire groups. Whenever you would pull a few extra mobs or something, in alot of groups, people would freak out because there might be a tiny risk of dying. I found it rather pathetic and annoying. The people who were constantly afraid of doing anything that might cause them to die really killed some excitement. Granted, this was largely an issue with PUGs, rather than your friends, but it still happened.
So, I guess, despite the death penalty in EQ, I was always taking risks and trying to push the limits. I rather enjoyed massive pulls in groups, and trying to solo things I shouldn't have been able to. I'm more interested in the challenge than the potential consequences. If the death penalty is holding people back from throwing a little risk and excitement in their game, then it's too harsh in my book.
The main things I don't want to see return are: Level loss(hate that with a passion) and Naked corpse runs. Those are just bad mechanics, in my book.
Things I don't mind: Item decay; Exp loss/debt; Stat debuffs; Optional running back to corpse/grave site to recover some of your coin or some such thing.
I agree. Death penalty should really make players want to avoid it at all times. Loss to experience gained, a block of experience to be gained or costly item repairs are good ways.
Experience penalties become absolutely worthless after the player reaches max level. Item degradation is as punishing as you want it to be. Money is time, no different than any experience loss. If you can't just repair your gear for a small amount then item degradation becomes a lot more punishing. Also, if you don't allow item repair, you have the extra benefit of removing items from the game and creating more demand for them instead of a constant inflation of items.
And money penalties are absolutely worthless right from the start. All someone has to do is give you some chump change (as a higher level character) and suddenly, death means nothing. Then you run into the issues of players demanding money from one another for getting each other killed. No. Stick with some sort of xp loss.
So? Someone given money is going to die less simply because he has better gear. Early levels should start off easier. The most difficult gameplay and harshest penalties should come from when you are max level. Experience loss is a regressive system that makes it less punishing to be max level than starting from the beginning.
P E R M A D E A T H MMOs
....what else?
Then you just create a game of nothing but perpetual experience grind, all without any gain whatsoever. That is not even remotely fun.