You are wrong, stop helping the players get confused on what sandbox is. You are describing what a sandbox is.
Emergent gameplay is when everything you do affects a world simulation. George even calls it out himself referring to it as emergent AI on a section. Landmark is sandbox.
Uhh, yeah, emergent gameplay is what happens when relatively simple AI rules lead to unexpected challenges and opportunities for players. That has nothing to do "permanently changing the server with their action", which is a sandbox feature.
One valuable feature of every sandbox is that it generates emergent gameplay. They are tightly linked.
That has nothing to do "permanently changing the server with their action", which is a sandbox feature.
Just because no one asked me, i'm going to interject and offer this thought:
"Permanently changing the world with player actions" sounds very sandbox. Unfortunately, I don't think that is so in the case of Rally Calls. But this is not a bad thing!
Rally calls are probably the absolutely best way to do progressive story in an MMO. It goes back to that "how do you make story without making everyone the hero" thing. This is exactly how. People all working together and shaping the world.
Here is why it's NOT sandbox . It's (get ready for it...) not sandbox because it's a themepark. It's a pre-written experience. The developers know EXACTLY what is going to happen with the event over 3 months. The don't know exactly which trigger players are going to hit first or when, but they KNOW, that eventually goblins will attack, that eventually the city will get stone walls, that at the end of it, the city will remain a piece of scortched earth. But don't shut your computers off just at the use of the hated "Themepark" term. In this case, it's a good thing. It will create fantastic opportunities for player interaction, roleplay and (yes!) emergent gameplay. We'll all be part of moving the story forward through the dynamic content generated around these events.
Sandbox would be if these events had multiple possible outcomes. For all we know that might be possible and might be something happens in the future. But regardless of that, it's still a damn awesome approach to doing story and events.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
If EQN isn't a sandbox then minecraft isn't a sandbox .
I've no idea what minecraft is like, but in general..
Bit early to tell, no?
For example - not that crafting is what defines a sandbox, but so far there is absolutely zero things confirmed that a player can craft via EQN. They've confirmed that you can get RL resigned items into the game via Player Studio and Landmark, but hasn't been a single mention of anything that your EQN character can actually make in EQN. Unless you count casting an "ice wall" spell as a sandbox feature because it creates a temporary wall.
I am not saying it's NOt, because frankly they haven't discussed themepark mechanics either. Just saying, there isn't any info so far.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
If EQN isn't a sandbox then minecraft isn't a sandbox .
I've no idea what minecraft is like, but in general..
Bit early to tell, no?
For example - not that crafting is what defines a sandbox, but so far there is absolutely zero things confirmed that a player can craft via EQN. They've confirmed that you can get RL resigned items into the game via Player Studio and Landmark, but hasn't been a single mention of anything that your EQN character can actually make in EQN. Unless you count casting an "ice wall" spell as a sandbox feature because it creates a temporary wall.
I am not saying it's NOt, because frankly they haven't discussed themepark mechanics either. Just saying, there isn't any info so far.
The land of Norrath changes every day, based on the actions of all players… including you. Cities rise and fall, kings live and die, even the gods may change. You won't want to miss a moment of it!
Originally posted by MMOExposed Isn't the sandbox the Fact that you can build on the world and change it. Dig a hole here and build a castle or whatever in the game world like Minecraft. You create the world. Sounds sandbox to me,
yeah, this game is about as sandbox as you can get, even if it does feature some themepark elements.
I am not really sure how to call what we heard so far.
Players permanently changing the server with their action sure isn't a themepark but it doesn't sound exactly like a sandbox either so far.
Maybe we need a new word for this...
There is already a word for this. You haven't seen it in many mmos because devs are afraid to make anything permanently usually.
The word is Emergent gameplay. And it's what I wanted from mmos since I first started playing mmos.
That's not what emergent gameplay is.
Emergent gameplay is simply players divising goals and objectives not spelled out by the developers. Eg, a player-run crafting tournament, or players ganging up to fight off a procedurally generated tribe of monsters whose AI has led them too close to town. Or in EQ a monk training another group of players and feign deathing.
It doesn't have to have anything to do with permanent change.
You are wrong, stop helping the players get confused on what sandbox is. You are describing what a sandbox is.
Emergent gameplay is when everything you do affects a world simulation. George even calls it out himself referring to it as emergent AI on a section. Landmark is sandbox.
Umm, the term "emergent gameplay" has been around for decades and your own link shows your definition is wrong.
Since the 1970s and 1980s board games and table top role playing games such as Cosmic Encounter or Dungeons & Dragons have featured intentional emergence as a primary game function by supplying players with relatively simple rules or frameworks for play that intentionally encouraged them to explore creative strategies or interactions and exploit them toward victory or goal achievement
That says absolutely nothing about the ability to permanantly change the shared world, which is exactly what "sandbox" refers to.
Emergent gameplay appears when there is good game simulation according to Peter Molyneux, creator of Populous and other games. Simulated worlds allow players to play around the world and should respond realistically to player’s actions. This is what made SimCity andThe Sims compelling to people.[citation needed] Similarly, being able to freely interact with the city’s inhabitants in the Grand Theft Auto series adds an extra dimension to the games.
The following is an example of emergent gameplay Molyneux gave with his game, Fable:
He says he watched a 15-year-old play tester chat up a woman in town who happened to be the mayor's daughter. He brought her gifts and flowers, talked to her all the time, started hugging and kissing her... and eventually they married and moved in together. Molyneux says he was delighted that a player was exploring this part of the game. Then the playtester talked to the Mayor and asked him to follow him. He took the mayor out to the woods, got him behind a tree ... and killed him! "Why did you do that!?" Molyneux asked. "I figured the mayor was rich, and he'd give all his money to his only daughter," answered the tester. Of course, now the daughter had lots of money, but didn't want to share any of it. So the playtester killed her, too. Then he moved into the mayor's house!
Molyneux also claims that emergence (or emergent gameplay) is where video game development is headed in the future.[
An open world is a type of video gamelevel design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.[1] The term "free roam" is also used, as is "sandbox" and "free-roaming".[2][3] "Open world" and "free-roaming" suggest the absence of artificial barriers,[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.[5] Generally open world games still enforce some restrictions in the game environment, either due to absolute technical limitations or in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.
Emergent gameplay= When simulated worlds respond to the players action and vice versa whether it be permanent or semi permanent.
True Sandbox= Tools to modify the world and create how they play.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Isn't the sandbox the Fact that you can build on the world and change it. Dig a hole here and build a castle or whatever in the game world like Minecraft. You create the world. Sounds sandbox to me,
yeah, this game is about as sandbox as you can get, even if it does feature some themepark elements.
It can have themepark elements as long as those elements can be used by players to create the rides we want and have the opportunity to change them or even scrap them completely.
OP is right. Don't let the way they presented it trick you. EQN doesn't have sandbox elements and Landmark does.
Firstly, landmark is probably going to be sold as a separate game or will have it's own cash shop (they didn't say it was free you know) and secondly, what happens to landmark after EQN launches? Because from the sounds of it EQ landmark's job would have been finished.. so then where are the continuing sandbox features?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Originally posted by Sideras OP, did you miss the whole talk about Rallying Calls?
No I did not. World events are not what make a sandbox (GW2 is not a sandbox), player stuctures (or more specifically player owned sturcutures) are what make a game a sandbox. Yours or your guilds own mark and property within the world. This includes the struggle to acquire and keep it. Again I refer you to SWG or EVE.
Look people you can debate semantics all day, the reality is when he said "largest sandbox ever" that did not mean dynamic world events to people who have actually played sandbox MMO's. To that crowd, not having those features will be a disappointment, whether you like it or not.
That says absolutely nothing about the ability to permanantly change the shared world, which is exactly what "sandbox" refers to.
Emergent gameplay appears when there is good game simulation according to Peter Molyneux, creator of Populous and other games. Simulated worlds allow players to play around the world and should respond realistically to player’s actions. This is what made SimCity andThe Sims compelling to people.[citation needed] ...
Gee, whaddya know, those games are also... sandboxes.
The following is an example of emergent gameplay Molyneux gave with his game, Fable:
He says he watched a 15-year-old play tester .... So the playtester killed her, too. Then he moved into the mayor's house!
Yeap, great example of immergent gameplay. A unique and unexpected solution emerging for a player to meet his own specific goals within the simulation. ... which is NOT the crux of the original example.
..... In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.[5]
Gee, funny how that sounds exactly like "Players permanently changing the server with their action", which was the original topic of this increasingly pointless debate.
Emergent gameplay= When simulated worlds respond to the players action and vice versa whether it be permanent or semi permanent.
Fighting off someone else's (exceedingly temporary) train to zone was emergent gameplay.
Stop confusing people please.
The ruder you get the more I feel compelled to correct you.
Lets just agree that sandbox features lead to emergent gameplay and we both like them a lot.
That says absolutely nothing about the ability to permanantly change the shared world, which is exactly what "sandbox" refers to.
Emergent gameplay appears when there is good game simulation according to Peter Molyneux, creator of Populous and other games. Simulated worlds allow players to play around the world and should respond realistically to player’s actions. This is what made SimCity andThe Sims compelling to people.[citation needed] ...
Gee, whaddya know, those games are also... sandboxes.
The following is an example of emergent gameplay Molyneux gave with his game, Fable:
He says he watched a 15-year-old play tester .... So the playtester killed her, too. Then he moved into the mayor's house!
Yeap, great example of immergent gameplay. A unique and unexpected solution emerging for a player to meet his own specific goals within the simulation. ... which is NOT the crux of the original example.
..... In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.[5]
Gee, funny how that sounds exactly like "Players permanently changing the server with their action", which was the original topic of this increasingly pointless debate.
Emergent gameplay= When simulated worlds respond to the players action and vice versa whether it be permanent or semi permanent.
Fighting off someone else's (exceedingly temporary) train to zone was emergent gameplay.
Stop confusing people please.
The ruder you get the more I feel compelled to correct you.
Lets just agree that sandbox features lead to emergent gameplay and we both like them a lot.
I was rude in no way. I only pointed out you were wrong and were confusing people. Have you seen the countless post on people debating on what a type of gameplay is.
Yes, those games have sandbox elements too. What I was pointing out was a clear difference between open world/free roam, true sandbox, and emergent gameplay.
Sandbox= Is a tool to create or interact with stuff. It's not about making a choice on how you wish to approach things pre-scripted developers give you choice in.
Emergent gameplay= It's not about using a tool like a world builder. It's about taking what is already there. Making a choice in the interaction and that choice affects the future.
Maybe SoE has lost their marbles and they think the way they have done Public Quest changing the world makes EQN a sandbox? Digging a hole to find content SoE hid is not sandbox as some have stated in this thread. Maybe we have not been told what makes this the biggest sandbox ever? Excited still but Im confused.
Originally posted by Sideras OP, did you miss the whole talk about Rallying Calls?
No I did not. World events are not what make a sandbox (GW2 is not a sandbox), player stuctures (or more specifically player owned sturcutures) are what make a game a sandbox. Yours or your guilds own mark and property within the world. This includes the struggle to acquire and keep it. Again I refer you to SWG or EVE.
Look people you can debate semantics all day, the reality is when he said "largest sandbox ever" that did not mean dynamic world events to people who have actually played sandbox MMO's. To that crowd, not having those features will be a disappointment, whether you like it or not.
OK. Have you ever played in a sandbox?
It's usually a quadrilateral framed by wood with from 6 to 12 inches of sand in it. You can take some time to make some structures in it, and then someone can come by (or rain and wind if no one does) and knock down your little castles, smooth your rivers, etc. How do you get the sand for these castles? Does it just materialize out of thin air? No, you have to dig it up from the sandbox (or probably shove it with your hand).
Now, I watched the presentation so maybe I know a little more than some people, who only read the articles here, but in EQNext, they said that you can knock down player made castles. Which means that players 1. Can construct buildings and 2. Can knock down buildings.
That's it. That is the #1 core element of a sandbox. You know how I know this? Because that's what happens in a real world sandbox. Build stuff, knock it down, build more stuff. Dig around in the sand.
So, it will be the world's largest MMO sandbox. End of story.
Now, does it have other elements that are often linked to sandbox games? 90% of these "must haves" don't really make a game a sandbox, they have just been linked in players' minds to the sandbox style games because, basically they were in Ultima Online, which wasn't really a sandbox, because those stupid castles just filled up the world forever.
Skill based character progression? Yes, and no. The weapons represent skills, but maybe you do not t "train them up", like you do in some games. It has classes, but it allows the player to choose many classes. So, it doesn't meet the UO character development system, but it sounds like it may have a lot more player variety (hopefully). Remember, UO only had, maybe 2 classes when all was said and done. I made a tank mage! Pretty, cool, I made a mage tank! I haven't played EVE online more than a couple hours, but I would bet dollars to donuts their combat skills work in much the same way.
FFA PVP? I haven't heard yet. We know there will be different servers.
Player Looting? TBD.
Player run economy: The assumption is yes, but we'll have to see once more crafting and building details are announced.
I am sure I am forgetting something, I'll reserve the right to edit when it comes to me*
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Maybe SoE has lost their marbles and they think the way they have done Public Quest changing the world makes EQN a sandbox? Digging a hole to find content SoE hid is not sandbox as some have stated in this thread. Maybe we have not been told what makes this the biggest sandbox ever? Excited still but Im confused.
The graphic look good, player movement is cool, lengthy dynamic events and the AI sound great.
That being said, where is the sandbox? Mind you I'm asking about EQNext not Landmark. When this game launches what will I be building? All this about largest sandbox and nothing about that covered.
The features covered in this presentation were for GW2. Great game, don't get me wrong, but where is the discussion about player structures, housing, guild property etc. ? That's what a sandbox is. Galaxies and EVE being examples.
It's nice that they will be allowing players to help design the game, but what about after.
With the info we have so far: EQ Landmarkis a sandbox, EQ Nextis not
In EQNext you can change the world permanently by your decisions and actions. Or did you miss that part?
The graphic look good, player movement is cool, lengthy dynamic events and the AI sound great.
That being said, where is the sandbox? Mind you I'm asking about EQNext not Landmark. When this game launches what will I be building? All this about largest sandbox and nothing about that covered.
The features covered in this presentation were for GW2. Great game, don't get me wrong, but where is the discussion about player structures, housing, guild property etc. ? That's what a sandbox is. Galaxies and EVE being examples.
It's nice that they will be allowing players to help design the game, but what about after.
With the info we have so far: EQ Landmarkis a sandbox, EQ Nextis not
In EQNext you can change the world permanently by your decisions and actions. Or did you miss that part?
Exactly...
procedural content - underground (and some overground) areas generated on the fly
destructible world - allows for both 'emergent' tactics and exploration in ANY direction including straight down.
dynamic AI - not only tracks your character's actions but tracks flagged conditions to allow mobs to react to areas according to their own preferences (means there're no set-piece camps. Mobs will gravitate to places they like... but those places can be made inhospitable by players)
Add to that the free-form character advancement that allows characters to learn new classes as they adventure... and that the NPC's that train them are dynamically generated, like everything else...
Even if you can't place a single structure in the open world, EQN is still a sandbox.
The graphic look good, player movement is cool, lengthy dynamic events and the AI sound great.
That being said, where is the sandbox? Mind you I'm asking about EQNext not Landmark. When this game launches what will I be building? All this about largest sandbox and nothing about that covered.
The features covered in this presentation were for GW2. Great game, don't get me wrong, but where is the discussion about player structures, housing, guild property etc. ? That's what a sandbox is. Galaxies and EVE being examples.
It's nice that they will be allowing players to help design the game, but what about after.
With the info we have so far: EQ Landmarkis a sandbox, EQ Nextis not
In EQNext you can change the world permanently by your decisions and actions. Or did you miss that part?
Same promise was made with GW2 public quests. Didnt take long to see the pattern. Going to have to hear a lot more to be convinced we wont see the same kinda pattern here even if that takes a month or two to finsh a cycle. That would be a very long themepark ride and still not sandpark in any way.
Sandbox= Is a tool to create or interact with stuff. It's not about making a choice on how you wish to approach things pre-scripted developers give you choice in.
Emergent gameplay= It's not about using a tool like a world builder. It's about taking what is already there. Making a choice in the interaction and that choice affects the future.
Sandbox is more than terraforming.
The problem is you're busy defining emergent gameplay and not addressing the topic of the post you replied to, which mentioned nothing about the kind of creative solutions you are describing.
We can agree that players finding creative solutions to a problem within a simulation is emergent gameplay.
I would argue that the ability to tip the balance in monster raids, with permanent consequences to the world, is in fact a "tool". It's user-generated content, which a lot of people associate with "sandbox". But I suppose reasonable people can disagree on this. But the binary choice, and it's permanance, is not emergent gameplay.
HOW you go about influencing a raid could easily be emergent gameplay, and so might be how/why the monsters were provoked to raid in the first place. (And whether you used the raid as an opportunity to loot the bank).
The graphic look good, player movement is cool, lengthy dynamic events and the AI sound great.
That being said, where is the sandbox? Mind you I'm asking about EQNext not Landmark. When this game launches what will I be building? All this about largest sandbox and nothing about that covered.
The features covered in this presentation were for GW2. Great game, don't get me wrong, but where is the discussion about player structures, housing, guild property etc. ? That's what a sandbox is. Galaxies and EVE being examples.
It's nice that they will be allowing players to help design the game, but what about after.
With the info we have so far: EQ Landmarkis a sandbox, EQ Nextis not
In EQNext you can change the world permanently by your decisions and actions. Or did you miss that part?
Same promise was made with GW2 public quests. Didnt take long to see the pattern. Going to have to hear a lot more to be convinced we wont see the same kinda pattern here even if that takes a month or two to finsh a cycle. That would be a very long themepark ride and still not sandpark in any way.
I must have missed something. They said that you'll make Hallas, and it won't be in the same location on every server. They didn't say that 3 months later, you'll come back and Hallas will be gone. As a matter of fact they said the exact opposite. They said if you make another character a year later, the world will be very different than what you remember from the first run through.
"Hey, here's Hallas, and it's got a new NPC faction dedicated to empowering the Snow Orcs into the rulers of the north. Should I aid or hinder them? When I first played there was no Hallas and everyone just hunted Snow Orcs."
You can't build Hallas twice. Once it's built it will become one of the structures that doesn't get knocked down (or regenerates quickly). Or maybe you can knock down hallas, but it will become a ruin that gnolls turn into their capital city and the trappers will talk of the majesty of fallen Hallas before the gnoll horde came. The game remembers what has happened.
Then you log onto another server and Hallas never fell.
Comments
Uhh, yeah, emergent gameplay is what happens when relatively simple AI rules lead to unexpected challenges and opportunities for players. That has nothing to do "permanently changing the server with their action", which is a sandbox feature.
One valuable feature of every sandbox is that it generates emergent gameplay. They are tightly linked.
At this point I feel like we hardly know enough about EQN to label it a sandbox or not.
We don't know if you can build structures in EQN
We don't know if you can build boats and sail around.
We don't know if you can claim land and farm.
We don't know if you can control territories with factional PVP.
Just because no one asked me, i'm going to interject and offer this thought:
"Permanently changing the world with player actions" sounds very sandbox. Unfortunately, I don't think that is so in the case of Rally Calls. But this is not a bad thing!
Rally calls are probably the absolutely best way to do progressive story in an MMO. It goes back to that "how do you make story without making everyone the hero" thing. This is exactly how. People all working together and shaping the world.
Here is why it's NOT sandbox . It's (get ready for it...) not sandbox because it's a themepark. It's a pre-written experience. The developers know EXACTLY what is going to happen with the event over 3 months. The don't know exactly which trigger players are going to hit first or when, but they KNOW, that eventually goblins will attack, that eventually the city will get stone walls, that at the end of it, the city will remain a piece of scortched earth. But don't shut your computers off just at the use of the hated "Themepark" term. In this case, it's a good thing. It will create fantastic opportunities for player interaction, roleplay and (yes!) emergent gameplay. We'll all be part of moving the story forward through the dynamic content generated around these events.
Sandbox would be if these events had multiple possible outcomes. For all we know that might be possible and might be something happens in the future. But regardless of that, it's still a damn awesome approach to doing story and events.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
If EQN isn't a sandbox then minecraft isn't a sandbox .
I've no idea what minecraft is like, but in general..
Bit early to tell, no?
For example - not that crafting is what defines a sandbox, but so far there is absolutely zero things confirmed that a player can craft via EQN. They've confirmed that you can get RL resigned items into the game via Player Studio and Landmark, but hasn't been a single mention of anything that your EQN character can actually make in EQN. Unless you count casting an "ice wall" spell as a sandbox feature because it creates a temporary wall.
I am not saying it's NOt, because frankly they haven't discussed themepark mechanics either. Just saying, there isn't any info so far.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The land of Norrath changes every day, based on the actions of all players… including you. Cities rise and fall, kings live and die, even the gods may change. You won't want to miss a moment of it!
Yeah the word you looking for is Open park world.
Asbo
yeah, this game is about as sandbox as you can get, even if it does feature some themepark elements.
Emergent gameplay appears when there is good game simulation according to Peter Molyneux, creator of Populous and other games. Simulated worlds allow players to play around the world and should respond realistically to player’s actions. This is what made SimCity andThe Sims compelling to people.[citation needed] Similarly, being able to freely interact with the city’s inhabitants in the Grand Theft Auto series adds an extra dimension to the games.
The following is an example of emergent gameplay Molyneux gave with his game, Fable:
He says he watched a 15-year-old play tester chat up a woman in town who happened to be the mayor's daughter. He brought her gifts and flowers, talked to her all the time, started hugging and kissing her... and eventually they married and moved in together. Molyneux says he was delighted that a player was exploring this part of the game. Then the playtester talked to the Mayor and asked him to follow him. He took the mayor out to the woods, got him behind a tree ... and killed him! "Why did you do that!?" Molyneux asked. "I figured the mayor was rich, and he'd give all his money to his only daughter," answered the tester. Of course, now the daughter had lots of money, but didn't want to share any of it. So the playtester killed her, too. Then he moved into the mayor's house!
Molyneux also claims that emergence (or emergent gameplay) is where video game development is headed in the future.[
An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.[1] The term "free roam" is also used, as is "sandbox" and "free-roaming".[2][3] "Open world" and "free-roaming" suggest the absence of artificial barriers,[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.[5] Generally open world games still enforce some restrictions in the game environment, either due to absolute technical limitations or in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.
Emergent gameplay= When simulated worlds respond to the players action and vice versa whether it be permanent or semi permanent.
True Sandbox= Tools to modify the world and create how they play.
Stop confusing people please.
It can have themepark elements as long as those elements can be used by players to create the rides we want and have the opportunity to change them or even scrap them completely.
OP is right. Don't let the way they presented it trick you. EQN doesn't have sandbox elements and Landmark does.
Firstly, landmark is probably going to be sold as a separate game or will have it's own cash shop (they didn't say it was free you know) and secondly, what happens to landmark after EQN launches? Because from the sounds of it EQ landmark's job would have been finished.. so then where are the continuing sandbox features?
No I did not. World events are not what make a sandbox (GW2 is not a sandbox), player stuctures (or more specifically player owned sturcutures) are what make a game a sandbox. Yours or your guilds own mark and property within the world. This includes the struggle to acquire and keep it. Again I refer you to SWG or EVE.
Look people you can debate semantics all day, the reality is when he said "largest sandbox ever" that did not mean dynamic world events to people who have actually played sandbox MMO's. To that crowd, not having those features will be a disappointment, whether you like it or not.
Gee, whaddya know, those games are also... sandboxes.
Yeap, great example of immergent gameplay. A unique and unexpected solution emerging for a player to meet his own specific goals within the simulation. ... which is NOT the crux of the original example.
Gee, funny how that sounds exactly like "Players permanently changing the server with their action", which was the original topic of this increasingly pointless debate.
Fighting off someone else's (exceedingly temporary) train to zone was emergent gameplay.
The ruder you get the more I feel compelled to correct you.
Lets just agree that sandbox features lead to emergent gameplay and we both like them a lot.
Well, Landmark certainly seems like a sandbox. At this point we don't really know what the heck EQ:N is.
I was rude in no way. I only pointed out you were wrong and were confusing people. Have you seen the countless post on people debating on what a type of gameplay is.
Yes, those games have sandbox elements too. What I was pointing out was a clear difference between open world/free roam, true sandbox, and emergent gameplay.
Sandbox= Is a tool to create or interact with stuff. It's not about making a choice on how you wish to approach things pre-scripted developers give you choice in.
Emergent gameplay= It's not about using a tool like a world builder. It's about taking what is already there. Making a choice in the interaction and that choice affects the future.
OK. Have you ever played in a sandbox?
It's usually a quadrilateral framed by wood with from 6 to 12 inches of sand in it. You can take some time to make some structures in it, and then someone can come by (or rain and wind if no one does) and knock down your little castles, smooth your rivers, etc. How do you get the sand for these castles? Does it just materialize out of thin air? No, you have to dig it up from the sandbox (or probably shove it with your hand).
Now, I watched the presentation so maybe I know a little more than some people, who only read the articles here, but in EQNext, they said that you can knock down player made castles. Which means that players 1. Can construct buildings and 2. Can knock down buildings.
That's it. That is the #1 core element of a sandbox. You know how I know this? Because that's what happens in a real world sandbox. Build stuff, knock it down, build more stuff. Dig around in the sand.
So, it will be the world's largest MMO sandbox. End of story.
Now, does it have other elements that are often linked to sandbox games? 90% of these "must haves" don't really make a game a sandbox, they have just been linked in players' minds to the sandbox style games because, basically they were in Ultima Online, which wasn't really a sandbox, because those stupid castles just filled up the world forever.
Skill based character progression? Yes, and no. The weapons represent skills, but maybe you do not t "train them up", like you do in some games. It has classes, but it allows the player to choose many classes. So, it doesn't meet the UO character development system, but it sounds like it may have a lot more player variety (hopefully). Remember, UO only had, maybe 2 classes when all was said and done. I made a tank mage! Pretty, cool, I made a mage tank! I haven't played EVE online more than a couple hours, but I would bet dollars to donuts their combat skills work in much the same way.
FFA PVP? I haven't heard yet. We know there will be different servers.
Player Looting? TBD.
Player run economy: The assumption is yes, but we'll have to see once more crafting and building details are announced.
I am sure I am forgetting something, I'll reserve the right to edit when it comes to me*
You're welcome ; )
In EQNext you can change the world permanently by your decisions and actions. Or did you miss that part?
Exactly...
Add to that the free-form character advancement that allows characters to learn new classes as they adventure... and that the NPC's that train them are dynamically generated, like everything else...
Even if you can't place a single structure in the open world, EQN is still a sandbox.
Same promise was made with GW2 public quests. Didnt take long to see the pattern. Going to have to hear a lot more to be convinced we wont see the same kinda pattern here even if that takes a month or two to finsh a cycle. That would be a very long themepark ride and still not sandpark in any way.
Sandbox is more than terraforming.
The problem is you're busy defining emergent gameplay and not addressing the topic of the post you replied to, which mentioned nothing about the kind of creative solutions you are describing.
We can agree that players finding creative solutions to a problem within a simulation is emergent gameplay.
I would argue that the ability to tip the balance in monster raids, with permanent consequences to the world, is in fact a "tool". It's user-generated content, which a lot of people associate with "sandbox". But I suppose reasonable people can disagree on this. But the binary choice, and it's permanance, is not emergent gameplay.
HOW you go about influencing a raid could easily be emergent gameplay, and so might be how/why the monsters were provoked to raid in the first place. (And whether you used the raid as an opportunity to loot the bank).
I must have missed something. They said that you'll make Hallas, and it won't be in the same location on every server. They didn't say that 3 months later, you'll come back and Hallas will be gone. As a matter of fact they said the exact opposite. They said if you make another character a year later, the world will be very different than what you remember from the first run through.
"Hey, here's Hallas, and it's got a new NPC faction dedicated to empowering the Snow Orcs into the rulers of the north. Should I aid or hinder them? When I first played there was no Hallas and everyone just hunted Snow Orcs."
You can't build Hallas twice. Once it's built it will become one of the structures that doesn't get knocked down (or regenerates quickly). Or maybe you can knock down hallas, but it will become a ruin that gnolls turn into their capital city and the trappers will talk of the majesty of fallen Hallas before the gnoll horde came. The game remembers what has happened.
Then you log onto another server and Hallas never fell.
Can you see how it works now?