Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.
There is no trinity. There is no tank, no set dps, no healers. No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat. Its mandatory. No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons. No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.
Its horrible.
They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2. Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank. No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.
Ok. All we really have heard is that they don't have the old aggro mechanic.
So yes, you don't hit the magic button(taunt) and every mobs attacks you.
But noone said that there are no tanks(defensive warriors) or DPS or Healer. What they said, you can customize your class a lot more, and you can switch between the classes you have already.. and every class need to progress.
So you don't have to wait for a healer, because most probably one of your guys already has a healer class available and can switch to that class.
It is not like GW2.. and they even said it at the panel.
TL;DR:
- no old aggro mechanic -> because AI is more advanced
- no need for waiting for classes -> multiclasses. Everyone is able to have the healer class and can switch to it.
Conclusion: Trinity will evolve.
lol - people keep trying to hang the ol' trinity label on stuff. GW2 is the same and there is no trinity there, same with EQNext.
Trinity is set roles, not adjustable roles. Thank god the Trinity is dying!!!
[mod edit]
trinity: having 3 roles that fullfill certain jobs (tank, dd, heal usually)
this does not change by having "multiclass" systems. or wow does not have trinity. my monk could go heal, dd or tank. same for most druids....
you say eq does not have trinity because you can swap your role? seriously?
WRONG.
doubt anyone of you wants to tell me WoW was the game that broke the trinity, or? so, either that or your arguments here are seriously flawed.
there is a reason for that system, because it works.
how else should it work? what are those "smart" and "advanced" mobs gonna do? not attack the one doing most agro on them??? (for what reason ever....)
[mod edit]
I beg to differentiate. Because to say the trinity is the same isn't true either.
Without the aggro mechanic from all old games. Tanks have to work completely different. You can't taunt and eveyone is attacking you. So Mobs will most probably spread out more.
But there are other different mechanismn better know from PvP games like DAoC or even WAR. In DAoC a Tank could Guard, with other word blocking for any party member. You just need to move near by, direct your shield to the enemy.. and block for your healer. And it worked very well in PvP.. and good AI will most probably not that different as a real player.
WAR used other technics for Tanks to distract players from certain players. So the gameplay of a tank will change dramaticly.. and most probalby a healer or any other dmg dealer (potential target) have to do a little bit more,.. moving around(kiting), run into direction to a tank, to get help. and so on.
But, different roles are absolutely intact, and noone said anything else... you will have healers, def. tanks, dps, cc and what not.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Take note in the class panel they said there are classes that midigate damage and will be useful and never feel like they are not worth having in a team. Here is where the confusion lies. They are not the only dynamic that will make a team work. Also a team that tries to trinity will soon find the NPCs learning how to deal with your team. This makes things like CC and other forms of controling the battle needed. Like the mage wall, blowing a hole in the ground. This means one thing only... this game is not tank and spank. Everyone in the team needs to take part not just assisting the tank and spam healing the tank. Trinity is just one of many tools.
I"m not so sure about that.. My gut tells me that the devs aren't completely honest how their combat AI works and why.. The old formula of damage mitigation and heals is being challenged by SOE.. They have always been notorious of forcing their will upon the player base using a backdoor.. I remember two guys bringing up the roles of tanking, and healing.. The first guy I had the impression the panel just wanted to tell him "NO TANK TAUNT" but politely went with the direction of damage mitigation.. but NEVER addressed the taunting part.. Tanking is more then just taunting too.. mob positioning is a big thing too.. Since taunting seems to be nerfed, how does a warrior position the mob in such a way to prevent group damage? Is that option gone too?
Then with the healer guy, the panel pretty much told him point blank.. "YOU DAYS OF SITTING AND HEALING ARE OVER".. with good sugar coating.. For people that are accustom and used to playing a Holy Pally, a Priest or Cleric, this game is NOT for you.. is my impression.. I"m sure there might and will be ways to toss out a heal here and there.. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see the CODING changed in a way that healing causes twice as much attention as dps or taunting.. So sure, toss in a heal if needed.... Do it twice = not a good idea.. Do it a third time, you're DEAD.. As a result my impression is the same as I have with GW2, that being the game is 90% dps and 10% other..
They did cover taunt very well. The old school insault taunt skill will not be there. So most likely you will only have aggro on mobs you are hitting. So a group of 10 mob maybe the tank can controle 3 mobs, the mage will need to wall 2 mobs and the enchater needs to cc a big bad guy. Each team member will need to do their part. Tank is only one part of the team. You have to remember tanks will feel needed but Im sure their goal is to make many other mythods of controle feel just as needed and will be on equal footing.
That you describe is old school EQ and I don't believe they are going in that direction.. Your example is only an assumption, and I'm sure once more comes out, one of us will have to change our tone.. I'm for old school EQ to the HILT, but I don't see EQN following that formula.. We'll wait and see what classes are disclosed in time and what abilities they might have, and how often they can use them.. But I stand on my assumption this game is primarily DPS..
That is close but not in whole. Trinity is just one way to make a team. Its not required. You can have a mix of any number of classes and uses many different tool sets to deal with mobs. You dont need the trinity to get the job done but the did say tanking and healing classes would never feel like they didnt have a spot in a team. Tanking is just one of many tool sets and for a team to do well you need to use them all or the AI will kick your butt. The game is not tank and spank. Thats all.
I really hope you are right...
The only game i played without the trinity was GW2, and it was confusing. It wasn't TEAM vs. EVIL. It was more like i-have-to-watch-my-own-back-all-the-time-or-we-will-wipe-horrible.
I appreciate it when having a class that holds a certain responsibility for all my happy fellow partymembers. That does not necessarily mean tanking or healing (though: YAY!) but also a varity of CC - abilities (GW2 really messed this up!).
Running around, dodging, jumping, yadda,yadda are nice mechanics to make fights less static, BUT. In the end there were just too few abilities to keep you alive over a longer time; and don't tell me the blind for 1/4 sec ability (with 15 sec cd) did make a difference in the fight... <.<
so when it comes to abilities.. i still have all my hope up for EQN
That is close but not in whole. Trinity is just one way to make a team. Its not required. You can have a mix of any number of classes and uses many different tool sets to deal with mobs. You dont need the trinity to get the job done but the did say tanking and healing classes would never feel like they didnt have a spot in a team. Tanking is just one of many tool sets and for a team to do well you need to use them all or the AI will kick your butt. The game is not tank and spank. Thats all.
I really hope you are right...
The only game i played without the trinity was GW2, and it was confusing. It wasn't TEAM vs. EVIL. It was more like i-have-to-watch-my-own-back-all-the-time-or-we-will-wipe-horrible.
I appreciate it when having a class that holds a certain responsibility for all my happy fellow partymembers. That does not necessarily mean tanking or healing (though: YAY!) but also a varity of CC - abilities (GW2 really messed this up!).
Running around, dodging, jumping, yadda,yadda are nice mechanics to make fights less static, BUT. In the end there were just too few abilities to keep you alive over a longer time; and don't tell me the blind for 1/4 sec ability (with 15 sec cd) did make a difference in the fight... <.<
so when it comes to abilities.. i still have all my hope up for EQN
I didn't like tha lack of healing in GW2 either.. nor the lack of good defensive tank mechanism. GW2 really took it to far, as i am concerned. And they got not rid off the old tab-targeting.. we will see what EQN will do with it.
I'm sitting her re-listening to the Q&A on classes, and I feel I'm listening to politicians.. Say one thing, but turn around and say another thing and claim BOTH are true.. Especially with what Butler is saying at the 15 min. area.. Sure you can play a tank, but the AI is smarter therefore..... UMMMMMM then they talk about group dynamics.. Sure you can play a tank, but you're not needed? HUH? HUH? I just get the feeling that the devs are playing BOTH sides of the fence and fearful of committing to a simple yes or no..
EDIT.. In fact at the 17 minute mark a chatter ask about defensive roles can a warrior take to keep a group of mobs from attacking the rangers or mages that are dps'ing the mobs.. and the devs BLEW HIM OFF.. completely.. It was avoidance to the Nth degree.. Then didn't even offer an example how the group could handle it or survive it... hmmm ?:
Apparently we have evolved from having to work closely with other humans in our MMO's to just showing up and mashing buttons in our own silo while hanging out silently with some other random people.
God I hope they keep some kind of trinity type system. It doesn't need to be 3 tiered...but IMO there HAS to be some kind of defined group roles, otherwise it turns into a mess. With no group roles, you spend most fights kiting mobs around out of necessity, and it eliminates most of the team work/strategy/positioning aspects of an encounter. For solo play...yes, I am all for being able to do many things, and being able to switch roles on the fly...in fact "leveling" all these classes so I have them available for group content sounds fun and interesting. I just hope that when you group up for a dungeon/raid....you pick a role, you know what you need to do, and you have to stick to it. I don't want to be switching roles from room to room. Give me a job and I will do it. If I do my job, and the other group members do theirs...we will succeed.
I also think if they are going to modify the trinity system, they need to de-emphasize the DPS portion . Everyone does damage.IMO having classes who's primary role is JUST doing damage, it makes that class boring, generally squishy, and tends to lead encounters into DPS races. Make a new "trinity" with clearly defined roles like Tanking (managing mob aggro), Healing, Crowd Control (stopping mobs from effecting a fight), Buffs/Debuffs, etc.....with DPS thrown into all roles in varying levels.
That is close but not in whole. Trinity is just one way to make a team. Its not required. You can have a mix of any number of classes and uses many different tool sets to deal with mobs. You dont need the trinity to get the job done but the did say tanking and healing classes would never feel like they didnt have a spot in a team. Tanking is just one of many tool sets and for a team to do well you need to use them all or the AI will kick your butt. The game is not tank and spank. Thats all.
I really hope you are right...
The only game i played without the trinity was GW2, and it was confusing. It wasn't TEAM vs. EVIL. It was more like i-have-to-watch-my-own-back-all-the-time-or-we-will-wipe-horrible.
I appreciate it when having a class that holds a certain responsibility for all my happy fellow partymembers. That does not necessarily mean tanking or healing (though: YAY!) but also a varity of CC - abilities (GW2 really messed this up!).
Running around, dodging, jumping, yadda,yadda are nice mechanics to make fights less static, BUT. In the end there were just too few abilities to keep you alive over a longer time; and don't tell me the blind for 1/4 sec ability (with 15 sec cd) did make a difference in the fight... <.<
so when it comes to abilities.. i still have all my hope up for EQN
I didn't like tha lack of healing in GW2 either.. nor the lack of good defensive tank mechanism. GW2 really took it to far, as i am concerned. And they got not rid off the old tab-targeting.. we will see what EQN will do with it.
I was confused in GW2 as well. It seemed like getting to a certain point in dungeons, was die and run back, die and run back.. hence why GW2 is sitting on a shelf.
Wasn't there a tweet that confirmed there was a trinity? People took the OTHER tweet out of context. They meant (like Rift) that since anyone can change classes at any time that you'll no longer need to wait for a healer. Trinity is assumed, and they mentioned that you'll have to gear for certain roles so not all class combinations are going to be optimal unless you want a sub-par hybrid. If you don't want to play multiple roles you probably won't have to, and you can focus entirely on healing or DPS or CC or Tanking if that's what you want to do.
The number of combinations will be pretty ridiculous with multi-classing, 8 different ability slots, and 40 different classes. Probably more freedom to build the class you want than any other MMO to date (assuming the 40 different classes have a wide array of abilities to chose from). I do think that only certain class combinations are going to be viable and you'll still be set into roles. Want to play a CCer? You'll probably be stuck with having to use classes like Enchanter and Bard. Want to play a tank? Go with Paladin, Shadowknight, or Warrior roles and gear for tanking. Mixing a healer with that might give you some extra solo viability but it likely won't be effective in large group play as you want someone focusing primarily on specific roles and without gear towards healing their heals would be near useless in group play. I don't see how the trinity is gone at all.
The class system seems to have most in common with Rift (or rather Archeage, but I'll use Rift as an example here because it's released in the NA and people likely have more experience playing with it). You can change your souls around, have 3 souls at once, and you can multiclass within your soul group. Everquest Next is likely going to remove the limitation of only being able to multiclass in your soul group (and possibly the limit of only having 3 classes at once) so there is a lot more freedom here, but you couldn't be a Justicar and spec into damage skills and expect to be a DPS and not a tank for example. The tanking and healing trees were pretty much the same (with the exception of Chloromancer which was an effective hybrid of DPS/Healer) so the freedom of multiclassing did not remove the trinity at all. Sure you could try to make hybrid builds, but they weren't viable at all and the trinity still existed in full in the game as a result.
Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.
There is no trinity. There is no tank, no set dps, no healers. No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat. Its mandatory. No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons. No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.
Its horrible.
They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2. Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank. No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.
Ok. All we really have heard is that they don't have the old aggro mechanic.
So yes, you don't hit the magic button(taunt) and every mobs attacks you.
But noone said that there are no tanks(defensive warriors) or DPS or Healer. What they said, you can customize your class a lot more, and you can switch between the classes you have already.. and every class need to progress.
So you don't have to wait for a healer, because most probably one of your guys already has a healer class available and can switch to that class.
It is not like GW2.. and they even said it at the panel.
TL;DR:
- no old aggro mechanic -> because AI is more advanced
- no need for waiting for classes -> multiclasses. Everyone is able to have the healer class and can switch to it.
Conclusion: Trinity will evolve.
This is exactly the impression I got from all I have seen so far and though its far to early to tell exactly how it will all work out this is also exactly what I am hoping for personally. Especially since in the videos we see the warrior playing a more defensive role with his sword and board and they clearly stated people would be able to setup and play very supportive type roles if they so choose.
Not really removing the Trinity but rather evolving it into something far better than the traditional trinity people have come to know. Only time will tell how it turns out.
this video made by curse.com has been roaming around. Part 2 I believe is the interesting part concerning trinity.
Quote from one of the devs: "Our AI is too smart too keep hitting the same guy"
Another quote: "You don't need a healer in group content"
Another: "We want our content to be independent whether a key player decides to logon on a certain night."
SOE might not call this getting rid of trinity, but a tank who is not, well, tanking, is not really a tank, however you put it. Removing the trinity doesn't seem to have brought many good things to GW2, and this design decision by SOE might have been taken when majority of people were pretty hyped about removing trinity.
this video made by curse.com has been roaming around. Part 2 I believe is the interesting part concerning trinity.
Quote from one of the devs: "Our AI is too smart too keep hitting the same guy"
Another quote: "You don't need a healer in group content"
Another: "We want our content to be independent whether a key player decides to logon on a certain night."
SOE might not call this getting rid of trinity, but a tank who is not, well, tanking, is not really a tank, however you put it. Removing the trinity doesn't seem to have brought many good things to GW2, and this design decision by SOE might have been taken when majority of people were pretty hyped about removing trinity.
I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...
based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever. they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..
I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...
based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever. they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..
Certainly, and I was one of the people who wasn't opposed to removing the trinity 2 years ago, when GW2 made this announcement. At the time it was a refreshing idea, and it's potential is outlined exactly by how you describe the possibilities.
But then I wonder, why did Anet fail? (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on the use of fail) And what does SOE have to really make it work?
Right now, due to the experience I have with GW2 and in lesser extent with Rift, I say this is a major design flaw. But if SOE does come up at a later point and detail how exactly they are dealing with the issues, I will be jumping with joy. Combat is for most people the single most important thing you do in an MMO. They got to get it right, or whatever other innovative stuff they have might fail as well.
I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.
In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.
Also, its important to underline the panels stating that players will not have the kind of steam-rolling power that is shown in the show-off combat videos. Which means players cant just faceroll the keyboard to win.
It's still way too early to judge if EQN will be a good game or not, but so far it -looks- good. To me it seems they have taken what Funcom did with The Secret World to the next level. Where TSW had a very narrow and cramped geography, EQN does the right thing in allowing for a more sandbox geographical setting.
What I have taken away from the videos and interviews is that SOE has researched A LOT into other MMOs (and games in general) from the last decade. This along with their enormous experience with MMOs sets a foundation that IMO sets EQN appart from any other current MMO project. I think SOE will succeed. The big concerns however is the mass appeal and the state of launch. They cant afford a halfassed launch with bugridden content. Too many companies has done that and failed miserably. Also, I think that its 100% certain there will be no FFA PvP. There might be dedicated servers for that type of gamers, but the main focus will be limited PvP. Guaranteed.
Everyone seems to be comparing EQN to GW2 (which is fair), but has anyone else seen the striking resemblance to another past SOE game......SWG (as it was at launch)?
I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...
based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever. they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..
Certainly, and I was one of the people who wasn't opposed to removing the trinity 2 years ago, when GW2 made this announcement. At the time it was a refreshing idea, and it's potential is outlined exactly by how you describe the possibilities.
But then I wonder, why did Anet fail? (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on the use of fail) And what does SOE have to really make it work?
Right now, due to the experience I have with GW2 and in lesser extent with Rift, I say this is a major design flaw. But if SOE does come up at a later point and detail how exactly they are dealing with the issues, I will be jumping with joy. Combat is for most people the single most important thing you do in an MMO. They got to get it right, or whatever other innovative stuff they have might fail as well.
I think it "failed" because gw2 failed to balance the pve aspect of the game.. either the mobs are too strong or the characters are too weak. but i didn't personally dislike it at all.. what i disliked was the character ability animations and lack of character customization.
Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.
There is no trinity. There is no tank, no set dps, no healers. No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat. Its mandatory. No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons. No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.
Its horrible.
They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2. Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank. No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.
This isn't true. The AI changes this. It is not mashing buttons.
Example: You and your friend find a monster, your friend attacks first. The mob focuses on him at first. Your friend positions himself behind the monster, the monster realizes that your friend is there, and backs away at an angle, attacking you both with a front sweeping attack before your friend can backstab him. Now, this sweeping attack hurts ... a few attacks and you'll be done for. You miss the indication that an attack is coming - your friend must react, and use a save to help you, or disable the monster (stun, etc). You both immobilize the monster, and defeat it. This requires well-timed reaction, not button mashing. Sounds a lot more fun than standing in a certain formation and mashing buttons, as you say.
It is not 'attack whoever they want' - the mobs are smart, and have motives and personalities. Each mob will react differently because their personality is different. It will promote knowledge and behavior of world and its creatures. Not the basic knowledge of the combat system.
The concept of the trinity requires a low-performing AI, as a tank needs to be able to hold aggro in trinity for the core system to work. If the tank cant hold aggro it falls apart. Mashing buttons? What about mashing taunt and threat abilities to match well performing DPS? Aggro systems are always the same. I wanted to see something new, this will provide just that. As a dev said at the panel I attended, "We don't want a character insulting the creatures mom, and being oblivious to the players doing free damage."
I agree with an earlier poster, they kind of keep contradicting themselves in their answers. I get the feeling there are many overall decisions not set yet, and its just smoke answers right now on several mechanics.
Besides does it really matter what they say the how the game is "designed" to handle group play. They already said many years ago many things in EQ was developed by how the community (the players) ended up handling it. They didn't anticipate their players doing a lot of things.
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...
based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever. they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..
Certainly, and I was one of the people who wasn't opposed to removing the trinity 2 years ago, when GW2 made this announcement. At the time it was a refreshing idea, and it's potential is outlined exactly by how you describe the possibilities.
But then I wonder, why did Anet fail? (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on the use of fail) And what does SOE have to really make it work?
Right now, due to the experience I have with GW2 and in lesser extent with Rift, I say this is a major design flaw. But if SOE does come up at a later point and detail how exactly they are dealing with the issues, I will be jumping with joy. Combat is for most people the single most important thing you do in an MMO. They got to get it right, or whatever other innovative stuff they have might fail as well.
I think it "failed" because gw2 failed to balance the pve aspect of the game.. either the mobs are too strong or the characters are too weak. but i didn't personally dislike it at all.. what i disliked was the character ability animations and lack of character customization.
GW2 made a key fundamental mistake that EQN is not. GW2 removed direct heals. This sole fact changed their overall philosophy when making encounters. The problem is, they don't know how to make an encounter for the system they created.
Comparing EQN to GW2 is largely pointless because other than that they are both action based, EQN is simply different. It doesn't remove direct healing, not everyone can do everything such as healing oneself at the same time. Another key difference between GW2 and EQN is that EQN has mana/energy whereas that was one more element GW2 removed.
I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.
In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.
EQN is nothing like The Secret World. TSW is a pure 100% tab-targeted trinity based combat system. There are threat building mechanics in tank weapons. There are direct heals in healing weapons and when you do "dungeons" you want a tank and a healer. Plenty of LFM Healer or LFM Tank in chat.
Dev already said that EQN has no taunts and no aggro management for the players. Now the question is did they got toward GW1 or GW2. GW1 didn't have the trinity (no taunt/aggro management), but healers were important in that game (in both direct heals and protection buff).
GW2 is another story, mostly because Zerkers (a build type) deal damage so fast that any other kind of build is currently useless.
But what is the point if your "healers" and "wizards" get nuked over and over and you stand there with sword and shield ? might as well swing your dick around and poke them with dick in hand.
There is no "smart" AI, it will not ever be present or we will always lose from npc's.. The trick it to make you believe they are smart and thats trick is as old as Dungeons and dragons.
Many people have explained it already, in combat npc's go A for the weaker armor, B for the lowest health target, C for the highest dps in group, D for the closest target. This is how npc's are scripted, some npc's might have diffrent scripts, some scripts may change as more npc's aer pulled or present. But it will always be a A - B - C - D script.
Its an illusion....smart AI would roflstomp any human being as they can calculate things we cant even do with 5 persons at the same time.
With no "trinity" you just get GW2 design of Zerg version 2.0. Specialy bigger world bosses or bosses where more and more people can join. It will scale in damage , attacks, diffrent spells, more HP, etc etc. Zerg zerg zerg die zerg zerg zerg die etc etc etc.
We all played GW2 and we all know this shit right ?
With healers and tanks you can create realy complex scripts, bosses that need min maxing, competend players and developers with a brain to design these encounters.
WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level. Hardcore contend was fucking hardcore contend, only the best guilds in the world completed it with sub par gear, there where guilds that even struggled with the best in slot items to tackle the contend many months later.
I even went back with some random dudes 15 levels later and 3 xpacs and we still managed to wipe like noobs.
What iam trying to say is that Trinity means Extreme extra work for developers. They need to keep being creative with scripts and min maxing.
While with no healer and tank they can get away with much easier stuff and less developer time to make new contend. Creating hardcore contend takes tremendous amounts of work, both in developing and testing.
Ask me or any other "1 percenter" "Hardcore Raider" "yes i was a dungeon crawler 24/7 basement dweller wow addict with nerdscreams comming out of my basement when we got a server 1st"
No healer or tank takes away the epicness.....
Are you realy having fun running away around corners low on health ? Are you realy going to have fun with 50 other people around you AoE all that shit without effort ? Are you realy going to have fun doing a world boss that only takes numbers ? No skill requirement just buttan mashing ? 8 skills ?
We have GW2 for that shit dont we ? Why another one ? EQN could be so much more then this incarnation of GW2 version 2.0
if iam totaly wrong about the trinity i am making a feel out of myself But i clearly heared that there will be no Tanks and no Healers.
I don't know why people try so hard to hang one to classic trinity. I as well as many others have been able to adjust and cope just fine in gw2. No gw2 is not a game you can play with one hand on a hot pocket and one spamming heals and buffs for a group in the background while they attack, or just auto attacking while dps lays down damage from afar never fearing death as long as they stay back . You have to run around, heal yourself, dodge ect. Not just stand in one spot and shoot, which is how it should be. Games evolve, players should too; or just stick to playing your old games and stop complaining about new ones you will never play.
I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.
In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.
EQN is nothing like The Secret World. TSW is a pure 100% tab-targeted trinity based combat system. There are threat building mechanics in tank weapons. There are direct heals in healing weapons and when you do "dungeons" you want a tank and a healer. Plenty of LFM Healer or LFM Tank in chat.
Dev already said that EQN has no taunts and no aggro management for the players. Now the question is did they got toward GW1 or GW2. GW1 didn't have the trinity (no taunt/aggro management), but healers were important in that game (in both direct heals and protection buff).
GW2 is another story, mostly because Zerkers (a build type) deal damage so fast that any other kind of build is currently useless.
Are you a retard? Just asking so I know if I should give you some slack or not. The EQN class system is as presented pretty much a copy of what TSW did except that you need to discover the classes. The entire -point- of classes is to give different types of approaches to combat. TSW has pretty much the same mix-and-match ability system where you can take from some classes (or skillsets rather) and put together your own build.
How combat will actually work in EQN we dont know yet. Sure, taunts and threat generation boosts for "tank classes" might not exist in EQN. But classes will still generate threat on mobs in some kind of fashion that the AI will react to. There might be no dedicated tank-type threat-holder, but there sure needs to be some kind of healing involved.
The Secret World is a much closer comparison in class and character design than GW2.
"WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level."
You mean the level right under Everquest 1? You think these guys dont understand raiding and scripted boss encounters? These guys laid the bloody groundwork that WoW thread on. WoW doesnt even compare to EQ1 raids.
Juts blows my mind how the WoW-kid generation think they know EVERYTHING and WoW defined and created EVERYTHING. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
Comments
I beg to differentiate. Because to say the trinity is the same isn't true either.
Without the aggro mechanic from all old games. Tanks have to work completely different. You can't taunt and eveyone is attacking you. So Mobs will most probably spread out more.
But there are other different mechanismn better know from PvP games like DAoC or even WAR. In DAoC a Tank could Guard, with other word blocking for any party member. You just need to move near by, direct your shield to the enemy.. and block for your healer. And it worked very well in PvP.. and good AI will most probably not that different as a real player.
WAR used other technics for Tanks to distract players from certain players. So the gameplay of a tank will change dramaticly.. and most probalby a healer or any other dmg dealer (potential target) have to do a little bit more,.. moving around(kiting), run into direction to a tank, to get help. and so on.
But, different roles are absolutely intact, and noone said anything else... you will have healers, def. tanks, dps, cc and what not.
That you describe is old school EQ and I don't believe they are going in that direction.. Your example is only an assumption, and I'm sure once more comes out, one of us will have to change our tone.. I'm for old school EQ to the HILT, but I don't see EQN following that formula.. We'll wait and see what classes are disclosed in time and what abilities they might have, and how often they can use them.. But I stand on my assumption this game is primarily DPS..
Agree, the game is a bore fest.
I really hope you are right...
The only game i played without the trinity was GW2, and it was confusing. It wasn't TEAM vs. EVIL. It was more like i-have-to-watch-my-own-back-all-the-time-or-we-will-wipe-horrible.
I appreciate it when having a class that holds a certain responsibility for all my happy fellow partymembers. That does not necessarily mean tanking or healing (though: YAY!) but also a varity of CC - abilities (GW2 really messed this up!).
Running around, dodging, jumping, yadda,yadda are nice mechanics to make fights less static, BUT. In the end there were just too few abilities to keep you alive over a longer time; and don't tell me the blind for 1/4 sec ability (with 15 sec cd) did make a difference in the fight... <.<
so when it comes to abilities.. i still have all my hope up for EQN
I didn't like tha lack of healing in GW2 either.. nor the lack of good defensive tank mechanism. GW2 really took it to far, as i am concerned. And they got not rid off the old tab-targeting.. we will see what EQN will do with it.
I'm sitting her re-listening to the Q&A on classes, and I feel I'm listening to politicians.. Say one thing, but turn around and say another thing and claim BOTH are true.. Especially with what Butler is saying at the 15 min. area.. Sure you can play a tank, but the AI is smarter therefore..... UMMMMMM then they talk about group dynamics.. Sure you can play a tank, but you're not needed? HUH? HUH? I just get the feeling that the devs are playing BOTH sides of the fence and fearful of committing to a simple yes or no..
EDIT.. In fact at the 17 minute mark a chatter ask about defensive roles can a warrior take to keep a group of mobs from attacking the rangers or mages that are dps'ing the mobs.. and the devs BLEW HIM OFF.. completely.. It was avoidance to the Nth degree.. Then didn't even offer an example how the group could handle it or survive it... hmmm ?:
God I hope they keep some kind of trinity type system. It doesn't need to be 3 tiered...but IMO there HAS to be some kind of defined group roles, otherwise it turns into a mess. With no group roles, you spend most fights kiting mobs around out of necessity, and it eliminates most of the team work/strategy/positioning aspects of an encounter. For solo play...yes, I am all for being able to do many things, and being able to switch roles on the fly...in fact "leveling" all these classes so I have them available for group content sounds fun and interesting. I just hope that when you group up for a dungeon/raid....you pick a role, you know what you need to do, and you have to stick to it. I don't want to be switching roles from room to room. Give me a job and I will do it. If I do my job, and the other group members do theirs...we will succeed.
I also think if they are going to modify the trinity system, they need to de-emphasize the DPS portion . Everyone does damage.IMO having classes who's primary role is JUST doing damage, it makes that class boring, generally squishy, and tends to lead encounters into DPS races. Make a new "trinity" with clearly defined roles like Tanking (managing mob aggro), Healing, Crowd Control (stopping mobs from effecting a fight), Buffs/Debuffs, etc.....with DPS thrown into all roles in varying levels.
I was confused in GW2 as well. It seemed like getting to a certain point in dungeons, was die and run back, die and run back.. hence why GW2 is sitting on a shelf.
Wasn't there a tweet that confirmed there was a trinity? People took the OTHER tweet out of context. They meant (like Rift) that since anyone can change classes at any time that you'll no longer need to wait for a healer. Trinity is assumed, and they mentioned that you'll have to gear for certain roles so not all class combinations are going to be optimal unless you want a sub-par hybrid. If you don't want to play multiple roles you probably won't have to, and you can focus entirely on healing or DPS or CC or Tanking if that's what you want to do.
The number of combinations will be pretty ridiculous with multi-classing, 8 different ability slots, and 40 different classes. Probably more freedom to build the class you want than any other MMO to date (assuming the 40 different classes have a wide array of abilities to chose from). I do think that only certain class combinations are going to be viable and you'll still be set into roles. Want to play a CCer? You'll probably be stuck with having to use classes like Enchanter and Bard. Want to play a tank? Go with Paladin, Shadowknight, or Warrior roles and gear for tanking. Mixing a healer with that might give you some extra solo viability but it likely won't be effective in large group play as you want someone focusing primarily on specific roles and without gear towards healing their heals would be near useless in group play. I don't see how the trinity is gone at all.
The class system seems to have most in common with Rift (or rather Archeage, but I'll use Rift as an example here because it's released in the NA and people likely have more experience playing with it). You can change your souls around, have 3 souls at once, and you can multiclass within your soul group. Everquest Next is likely going to remove the limitation of only being able to multiclass in your soul group (and possibly the limit of only having 3 classes at once) so there is a lot more freedom here, but you couldn't be a Justicar and spec into damage skills and expect to be a DPS and not a tank for example. The tanking and healing trees were pretty much the same (with the exception of Chloromancer which was an effective hybrid of DPS/Healer) so the freedom of multiclassing did not remove the trinity at all. Sure you could try to make hybrid builds, but they weren't viable at all and the trinity still existed in full in the game as a result.
This is exactly the impression I got from all I have seen so far and though its far to early to tell exactly how it will all work out this is also exactly what I am hoping for personally. Especially since in the videos we see the warrior playing a more defensive role with his sword and board and they clearly stated people would be able to setup and play very supportive type roles if they so choose.
Not really removing the Trinity but rather evolving it into something far better than the traditional trinity people have come to know. Only time will tell how it turns out.
Again, I haven't seen anyone from SOE mention the word trinity, but:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOKhfxwLokg
this video made by curse.com has been roaming around. Part 2 I believe is the interesting part concerning trinity.
Quote from one of the devs: "Our AI is too smart too keep hitting the same guy"
Another quote: "You don't need a healer in group content"
Another: "We want our content to be independent whether a key player decides to logon on a certain night."
SOE might not call this getting rid of trinity, but a tank who is not, well, tanking, is not really a tank, however you put it. Removing the trinity doesn't seem to have brought many good things to GW2, and this design decision by SOE might have been taken when majority of people were pretty hyped about removing trinity.
I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...
based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever. they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..
Certainly, and I was one of the people who wasn't opposed to removing the trinity 2 years ago, when GW2 made this announcement. At the time it was a refreshing idea, and it's potential is outlined exactly by how you describe the possibilities.
But then I wonder, why did Anet fail? (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on the use of fail) And what does SOE have to really make it work?
Right now, due to the experience I have with GW2 and in lesser extent with Rift, I say this is a major design flaw. But if SOE does come up at a later point and detail how exactly they are dealing with the issues, I will be jumping with joy. Combat is for most people the single most important thing you do in an MMO. They got to get it right, or whatever other innovative stuff they have might fail as well.
I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.
In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.
Also, its important to underline the panels stating that players will not have the kind of steam-rolling power that is shown in the show-off combat videos. Which means players cant just faceroll the keyboard to win.
It's still way too early to judge if EQN will be a good game or not, but so far it -looks- good. To me it seems they have taken what Funcom did with The Secret World to the next level. Where TSW had a very narrow and cramped geography, EQN does the right thing in allowing for a more sandbox geographical setting.
What I have taken away from the videos and interviews is that SOE has researched A LOT into other MMOs (and games in general) from the last decade. This along with their enormous experience with MMOs sets a foundation that IMO sets EQN appart from any other current MMO project. I think SOE will succeed. The big concerns however is the mass appeal and the state of launch. They cant afford a halfassed launch with bugridden content. Too many companies has done that and failed miserably. Also, I think that its 100% certain there will be no FFA PvP. There might be dedicated servers for that type of gamers, but the main focus will be limited PvP. Guaranteed.
Everyone seems to be comparing EQN to GW2 (which is fair), but has anyone else seen the striking resemblance to another past SOE game......SWG (as it was at launch)?
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I think it "failed" because gw2 failed to balance the pve aspect of the game.. either the mobs are too strong or the characters are too weak. but i didn't personally dislike it at all.. what i disliked was the character ability animations and lack of character customization.
This isn't true. The AI changes this. It is not mashing buttons.
Example: You and your friend find a monster, your friend attacks first. The mob focuses on him at first. Your friend positions himself behind the monster, the monster realizes that your friend is there, and backs away at an angle, attacking you both with a front sweeping attack before your friend can backstab him. Now, this sweeping attack hurts ... a few attacks and you'll be done for. You miss the indication that an attack is coming - your friend must react, and use a save to help you, or disable the monster (stun, etc). You both immobilize the monster, and defeat it. This requires well-timed reaction, not button mashing. Sounds a lot more fun than standing in a certain formation and mashing buttons, as you say.
It is not 'attack whoever they want' - the mobs are smart, and have motives and personalities. Each mob will react differently because their personality is different. It will promote knowledge and behavior of world and its creatures. Not the basic knowledge of the combat system.
The concept of the trinity requires a low-performing AI, as a tank needs to be able to hold aggro in trinity for the core system to work. If the tank cant hold aggro it falls apart. Mashing buttons? What about mashing taunt and threat abilities to match well performing DPS? Aggro systems are always the same. I wanted to see something new, this will provide just that. As a dev said at the panel I attended, "We don't want a character insulting the creatures mom, and being oblivious to the players doing free damage."
I agree with an earlier poster, they kind of keep contradicting themselves in their answers. I get the feeling there are many overall decisions not set yet, and its just smoke answers right now on several mechanics.
Besides does it really matter what they say the how the game is "designed" to handle group play. They already said many years ago many things in EQ was developed by how the community (the players) ended up handling it. They didn't anticipate their players doing a lot of things.
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
GW2 made a key fundamental mistake that EQN is not. GW2 removed direct heals. This sole fact changed their overall philosophy when making encounters. The problem is, they don't know how to make an encounter for the system they created.
Comparing EQN to GW2 is largely pointless because other than that they are both action based, EQN is simply different. It doesn't remove direct healing, not everyone can do everything such as healing oneself at the same time. Another key difference between GW2 and EQN is that EQN has mana/energy whereas that was one more element GW2 removed.
EQN is nothing like The Secret World. TSW is a pure 100% tab-targeted trinity based combat system. There are threat building mechanics in tank weapons. There are direct heals in healing weapons and when you do "dungeons" you want a tank and a healer. Plenty of LFM Healer or LFM Tank in chat.
Dev already said that EQN has no taunts and no aggro management for the players. Now the question is did they got toward GW1 or GW2. GW1 didn't have the trinity (no taunt/aggro management), but healers were important in that game (in both direct heals and protection buff).
GW2 is another story, mostly because Zerkers (a build type) deal damage so fast that any other kind of build is currently useless.
But what is the point if your "healers" and "wizards" get nuked over and over and you stand there with sword and shield ? might as well swing your dick around and poke them with dick in hand.
There is no "smart" AI, it will not ever be present or we will always lose from npc's..
The trick it to make you believe they are smart and thats trick is as old as Dungeons and dragons.
Many people have explained it already, in combat npc's go A for the weaker armor, B for the lowest health target, C for the highest dps in group, D for the closest target.
This is how npc's are scripted, some npc's might have diffrent scripts, some scripts may change as more npc's aer pulled or present.
But it will always be a A - B - C - D script.
Its an illusion....smart AI would roflstomp any human being as they can calculate things we cant even do with 5 persons at the same time.
With no "trinity" you just get GW2 design of Zerg version 2.0.
Specialy bigger world bosses or bosses where more and more people can join.
It will scale in damage , attacks, diffrent spells, more HP, etc etc.
Zerg zerg zerg die zerg zerg zerg die etc etc etc.
We all played GW2 and we all know this shit right ?
With healers and tanks you can create realy complex scripts, bosses that need min maxing, competend players and developers with a brain to design these encounters.
WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level.
Hardcore contend was fucking hardcore contend, only the best guilds in the world completed it with sub par gear, there where guilds that even struggled with the best in slot items to tackle the contend many months later.
I even went back with some random dudes 15 levels later and 3 xpacs and we still managed to wipe like noobs.
What iam trying to say is that Trinity means Extreme extra work for developers.
They need to keep being creative with scripts and min maxing.
While with no healer and tank they can get away with much easier stuff and less developer time to make new contend.
Creating hardcore contend takes tremendous amounts of work, both in developing and testing.
Ask me or any other "1 percenter" "Hardcore Raider" "yes i was a dungeon crawler 24/7 basement dweller wow addict with nerdscreams comming out of my basement when we got a server 1st"
No healer or tank takes away the epicness.....
Are you realy having fun running away around corners low on health ?
Are you realy going to have fun with 50 other people around you AoE all that shit without effort ?
Are you realy going to have fun doing a world boss that only takes numbers ?
No skill requirement just buttan mashing ? 8 skills ?
We have GW2 for that shit dont we ?
Why another one
EQN could be so much more then this incarnation of GW2 version 2.0
if iam totaly wrong about the trinity i am making a feel out of myself
But i clearly heared that there will be no Tanks and no Healers.
Are you a retard? Just asking so I know if I should give you some slack or not. The EQN class system is as presented pretty much a copy of what TSW did except that you need to discover the classes. The entire -point- of classes is to give different types of approaches to combat. TSW has pretty much the same mix-and-match ability system where you can take from some classes (or skillsets rather) and put together your own build.
How combat will actually work in EQN we dont know yet. Sure, taunts and threat generation boosts for "tank classes" might not exist in EQN. But classes will still generate threat on mobs in some kind of fashion that the AI will react to. There might be no dedicated tank-type threat-holder, but there sure needs to be some kind of healing involved.
The Secret World is a much closer comparison in class and character design than GW2.
"WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level."
You mean the level right under Everquest 1? You think these guys dont understand raiding and scripted boss encounters? These guys laid the bloody groundwork that WoW thread on. WoW doesnt even compare to EQ1 raids.
Juts blows my mind how the WoW-kid generation think they know EVERYTHING and WoW defined and created EVERYTHING. Ignorance is bliss I guess.