I think its the "narrowing" of minds thats the problem. This is what the artsyle they chose. Deal with it. If you dont like it that much then go to a different game. They aint changing it, why talk about it?
Originally posted by jerlot65 I think its the "narrowing" of minds thats the problem. This is what the artsyle they chose. Deal with it. If you dont like it that much then go to a different game. They aint changing it, why talk about it?
It is healthy and human nature to discuss things of similar interest, be they topics of positivity of negativity. Additionally, the development team bluntly stated that they would be attempting to keep the community's interests at heart. If something bothers enough people, there is a slight probability that it may be open for discussion at some point in time and the advice heeded.
There were numerous aspects within the hordes of MMORPGs that I have played that I absolutely despised. Conversing about it reaffirms whether an individual is alone in their opinion or not. Even if changes nothing, it is a valid means of social interaction. For the most part this thread has surprisingly maintained a semi-practical purpose, with argument guided toward a result or consensus (healthy) - as opposed to many of the other threads that quickly turned into bitter flame throwing, not of differing opinions, but criticisms of opinions (not so healthy). Even if some of the picture examples are rather humorous, they are at least examples made in efficacious gesture.
The artstyle will not change, you are correct. But small details of it may with proper well-worded advice and design examples. After all, SOE said that they would supposedly listen. Whether or not that is true is up for debate, but to disregard it as a lie early on would certainly be non-beneficial. ^_^
I think they're going back to their roots somewhat with character graphics and weapon models. It seems like the vast majority of the people have forgotten about EQoA's art direction... which was stylized, especially after the expansion, Frontiers. EQoA was the best MMO experience of my whole entire life!
I like the graphics and the style. I like large over the top armor and weapon design. The art looks amazing. Not everyone hates or even dislikes it. I like cartoony games and animations. I like my games unrealistic and pleasing on the eyes.
We haven't seen the customization options yet and I'm willing to bet there'll be a ton (cash shop, if nothing else).
Just changing the skin and armor colors made the Kerran easier on my eyes, at least:
My goodness, what an improvement a fresh coat of paint does. If they showed this I would have complained a bit less. I do hope they dim down the color a little on that absurdly bright sunshine lion. I still think that they should redo the nose completely - its length and lack of brow reminds me of a horse.
- AH! THAT'S IT, IT HAS NO BROW! -
Add that, and I think it may fix the stylized error on the face; a lowered bridge and slightly raised brow.
We haven't seen the customization options yet and I'm willing to bet there'll be a ton (cash shop, if nothing else).
Just changing the skin and armor colors made the Kerran easier on my eyes, at least:
My goodness, what an improvement a fresh coat of paint does. If they showed this I would have complained a bit less. I do hope they dim down the color a little on that absurdly bright sunshine lion. I still think that they should redo the nose completely - its length and lack of brow reminds me of a horse.
- AH! THAT'S IT, IT HAS NO BROW! -
Add that, and I think it may fix the stylized error on the face; a lowered bridge and slightly raised brow.
My first MMO was EQ2, and most of my first guild left very early on and went to WoW, but I couldn't bring myself to go as the graphics were too "cartoony" and it just didn't do it for me. That said, it seems to me that EQN is moving away from the more realistic graphics and trying to appeal to the WoW masses. Hey I can't blame them, why take your own customers when there's millions in WoW to go after.
The world does seem fairly realistic at least say compared to Wildstar, but the characters seem something between the Adventures of Tin Tin movie and Monkey Island (I think someone else mention pirates and that's exactly what I was thinking)
In saying all this, there is more to making a great game than graphics, so I will reserve my judgement until we hit beta testing.
I do think the character movement looks good, facial expressions are great and all in keeping with the style so if they were to tone down the kerran and add a touch more realism in textures I think it would help. Having played Rift, I found that level of character realism to be a good compromise.
The rework female looks more natural (not essentially beautiful), yet one look can still tell it is a "cartoon" character.
Of course, this is MY OPINION. The hostility here is strong.
The second pictures are definitely a huge improvement, although the Kerran could do with even more 'improvement' imo, certainly its far better than the original art style. Its very easy to form a 'bad' opinion of a game based on how it looks, and in particular the player characters themselves will be a huge influence. But don't get hopes up, SOE doesnt have much of a track record for listening to player input.
Skyrim runs on Console, Morrowind and Oblivion still look great, Vampire Bloodlines looks still great, AoC Looks great, LOTRO Looks great - go home and take your Strawman with you!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
The rework female looks more natural (not essentially beautiful), yet one look can still tell it is a "cartoon" character.
Of course, this is MY OPINION. The hostility here is strong.
Nope fact is, if an Asian company can do character like what you will see in the vid i link then SOE could of done the same and this is coming from an EQ vet.
Gotta say im very dissapointed with the character models, they come off as a rip off of Disney/Wildstar/Wow styles. To be frank down right childish and just old hat and not appealing to me in any way sadly. How can i feel like my char is bad ass or gritty or even a lil dark when it looks like it just fell out of a disney movie? Game looks like it has some great things to offer but imho char models blow hard. On the same note if the npc's also share the same model style, how are we supposed to find them threatening? or even scary? Im not saying go full AoC models or anything BUT the majority of the EQ franchise player base are adults NOT children. Just for once it would be nice if game dev's treated us as such.
EQ1 looked really bad even for its time and EQ2 was a horrendously ugly and dull looking MMO. I don't understand why so many EQ veterans want to stick with that awful style
The Kerran did look pretty silly but surely we'll be able to customize our characters in the character creator. This concept art of a Kerran looks a lot better for example;
Very happy to see productive discussion in this thread. Aside from a few borderline-psychotic posts, lots of good suggestions and differing opinions on the art style!
So far, I've liked almost everything that has been revealed. Everything, that is, except the Character Art. I just feel that in some cases, the art is way too over-the-top for what is necessary.
Please note the exception of environmental graphics in my statement - because I really do like the world engine and think it will age quite well. I think it's important to point this out, because I want to differentiate myself from the threads that seemingly complain about all the graphical elements in the game when my only real complaint is certain aspects of the characters.
Being that I only have an issue with Character Art, I decided to narrow it down: why would I like the environment but not the characters? After all, it is the same art style in general is it not? Actually, it's something a bit different. Because having colorful art with a certain expression is one thing - but it's the exaggerated "heroic" elements that we've seen time and again in modern MMO's that are a beast on their own. And I feel that a significant number of people who are dissuaded by (what would appear to be) the entire Art Style in the game might actually be persuaded to change their minds by a few minor tweaks to characters regarding these seemingly "heroic" features.
Of course, I'm talking about over-sized shoulder-pads, bracers and massively disproportionate muscles, hands and feet. It's the stuff that we all know originates from "a certain" game. I don't think EQN would be compromising the art style whatsoever to pull back on these features. After all, some of the character art shown does look relatively normal. But some of it just looks outrageously overzealous and plagiaristic of another title. Note the the two EQN characters below:
Notice the difference between the two charcters. The wizard on the right actually looks somewhat proportional, where as the Kerran on the left has been exaggerated extensively for dramatic affect. The shoulder-pads alone will be covering a large portion of the Kerran's body. The hands are larger than the characters entire head. We end up with a character that actually has very little "character" - rather, he's turned into a mess of blocky armor pieces and gigantic hands. Also note that though these are only two examples - there have been other characters shown that have the same extreme exaggerations as the Kerran. Even human characters have this problem.
I'd like to hear some thoughts and feedback on this. Would people be willing to consider and/or desire (as I do) a change regarding the exaggerated "heroic" features on the characters without compromising the general theme of the art?
Disclaimer: this is my first post here - but I assure you that I am a passionate fan of Everquest and my intention here is merely to have a productive discussion.
Also, I put "problem" in quotations because I wanted to acknowledge that not everyone agrees that the Character Art is an issue. Everyone's opinion is welcome - just please be civil.
maybe they have sliders for proportion values? maybe whoever created the Kerran for the demo wanted him to look like that? I am pretty sure they will have TONS more options in character creation than just a standard copy-paste model between all characters of each race and gender. I have no worries. I like the Pixar look, as I enjoy those films more than I enjoy live action films. But for those who want less cartoony characters, don't give up your hopes yet. We do know that you have the option for bulky armor or not, even within the heavy category. We just don't know the extent of options for character creation yet though. But. I'm hopeful and really wanting a HUGE number of permutations. Not a fan of combinations. I'd rather have sliders and triangle values rather than selecting predetermined noses/faces/hair/and colors and such like that. Options, options, options!
Love the model on the right so much more than the one on the left.
Would like to see a similar change to the Kerran model.
That is true. Elizabeth from Bioshock has all the features they where going for. She has oversized facial features and would be great for SOE-mote, but she does not look like a Disney Princess.
It's the distinctive way the head, the eyes and the lips are curved on the human character, together with the emotes they gave her, that just epitomize the art style of Disney/Pixar.
The problem I have with this kind of art is that it will always remind me of schmaltzy and shallow storytelling and characters with some kind of annoying bipolar personality that are either crying or singing jolly song.
I know, Pixar has also made some movies that actually tell a good story like Up and WallE but they don't have this kind of princess characters. And just imagine how out of place the graphics would look like if Up was full of violent fight scenes.
Have you ever seen a character for two seconds and already knew you hated everything about it? That is what happened to me with this one. She just looks like a priggish brat.
And the Kerra is just broken beyond repair. There is not a single good thing I could say about the model. His body is more deformed than anything you see in WoW. But is head is even worse. He does not look like a lion and he is no menacing, instead he has a big goofy Snoopy-nose. And while the human character al least has articulate expressions, he looks so lifeless and if he roars it only looks awkward. Just compare him to the Charr from GW2.
The characters don't even match the rest of the graphics in the game. They look like they belong in a differed world. I really hope SOE can still do something about it.
Looks like Thunder Cats to me. No worries, if the game play is solid then it does not matter.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I'm actually curious if the Dev team during the conference were running the game at its fullest settings with the characters graphics turned up. The Anti Aliasing seemed to be turned off and the lines where not crisp and clean. I am wanting to wager that more than likely I don't think the graphics are fully updated atm.
-Can you make an art style like this and then realistically proportion everything? It's fantasy right? I'm trying to phrase this so it isn't about taste its about consistency. Who really knows how large a Lion's Paws would be if they had opposable thumbs capable of holding a shield. Doesn't massive armor and features mes more appropriately with a 2 legged Lion than delicate fingers and strictly utilitarian shoulder pads? Its stylistic and whether a person likes it or not, can't the artists get some artistic interpretations on the world?
Yes, you can. You simply move the vertexes of the mesh a big closer to the center aka ... downsizing.
And for these "it is set in stone, now $%& up" cryer ... the impact of the EQ2 models back then was so strong on the games perception/success in Asia that they came up with the SOGA models. A different look for the Asian markets. If the poll is remotely reliable it means that almost 40% do not like the art. If even half of these do skip the game because of the looks (and immersion is not rational but emotional too), there goes a LOT of customer base for EQN.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Comments
It is healthy and human nature to discuss things of similar interest, be they topics of positivity of negativity. Additionally, the development team bluntly stated that they would be attempting to keep the community's interests at heart. If something bothers enough people, there is a slight probability that it may be open for discussion at some point in time and the advice heeded.
There were numerous aspects within the hordes of MMORPGs that I have played that I absolutely despised. Conversing about it reaffirms whether an individual is alone in their opinion or not. Even if changes nothing, it is a valid means of social interaction. For the most part this thread has surprisingly maintained a semi-practical purpose, with argument guided toward a result or consensus (healthy) - as opposed to many of the other threads that quickly turned into bitter flame throwing, not of differing opinions, but criticisms of opinions (not so healthy). Even if some of the picture examples are rather humorous, they are at least examples made in efficacious gesture.
The artstyle will not change, you are correct. But small details of it may with proper well-worded advice and design examples. After all, SOE said that they would supposedly listen. Whether or not that is true is up for debate, but to disregard it as a lie early on would certainly be non-beneficial. ^_^
Always a pleasure.
We haven't seen the customization options yet and I'm willing to bet there'll be a ton (cash shop, if nothing else).
Just changing the skin and armor colors made the Kerran easier on my eyes, at least:
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
By the way, does anyone remember the time Blizzard reduced the size of shoulder armor in WoW?
The community was pretty clear what they prefer back then
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
My goodness, what an improvement a fresh coat of paint does. If they showed this I would have complained a bit less. I do hope they dim down the color a little on that absurdly bright sunshine lion. I still think that they should redo the nose completely - its length and lack of brow reminds me of a horse.
- AH! THAT'S IT, IT HAS NO BROW! -
Add that, and I think it may fix the stylized error on the face; a lowered bridge and slightly raised brow.
Always a pleasure.
Apply SweetFX
Profit.
The rework female looks more natural (not essentially beautiful), yet one look can still tell it is a "cartoon" character.
Of course, this is MY OPINION. The hostility here is strong.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
My first MMO was EQ2, and most of my first guild left very early on and went to WoW, but I couldn't bring myself to go as the graphics were too "cartoony" and it just didn't do it for me. That said, it seems to me that EQN is moving away from the more realistic graphics and trying to appeal to the WoW masses. Hey I can't blame them, why take your own customers when there's millions in WoW to go after.
The world does seem fairly realistic at least say compared to Wildstar, but the characters seem something between the Adventures of Tin Tin movie and Monkey Island
(I think someone else mention pirates and that's exactly what I was thinking)
In saying all this, there is more to making a great game than graphics, so I will reserve my judgement until we hit beta testing.
I do think the character movement looks good, facial expressions are great and all in keeping with the style so if they were to tone down the kerran and add a touch more realism in textures I think it would help. Having played Rift, I found that level of character realism to be a good compromise.
The second pictures are definitely a huge improvement, although the Kerran could do with even more 'improvement' imo, certainly its far better than the original art style. Its very easy to form a 'bad' opinion of a game based on how it looks, and in particular the player characters themselves will be a huge influence. But don't get hopes up, SOE doesnt have much of a track record for listening to player input.
2. Cartoony graphics are less demanding on the PC.
3. "Realistic" MMOs still end up looking fake and awakward looking.
4. Art direction is set in stone. You can only expect very minor tweaks not a total revamp.
5. The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker had a very similar backlash but the game is now considered one of the series best.
6. Cartoony graphics age much better.
Skyrim runs on Console, Morrowind and Oblivion still look great, Vampire Bloodlines looks still great, AoC Looks great, LOTRO Looks great - go home and take your Strawman with you!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Nope fact is, if an Asian company can do character like what you will see in the vid i link then SOE could of done the same and this is coming from an EQ vet.
Love the model on the right so much more than the one on the left.
Would like to see a similar change to the Kerran model.
Gotta say im very dissapointed with the character models, they come off as a rip off of Disney/Wildstar/Wow styles. To be frank down right childish and just old hat and not appealing to me in any way sadly. How can i feel like my char is bad ass or gritty or even a lil dark when it looks like it just fell out of a disney movie? Game looks like it has some great things to offer but imho char models blow hard. On the same note if the npc's also share the same model style, how are we supposed to find them threatening? or even scary? Im not saying go full AoC models or anything BUT the majority of the EQ franchise player base are adults NOT children. Just for once it would be nice if game dev's treated us as such.
Oh model on the right for the win!!!! ^
EQ1 looked really bad even for its time and EQ2 was a horrendously ugly and dull looking MMO. I don't understand why so many EQ veterans want to stick with that awful style
The Kerran did look pretty silly but surely we'll be able to customize our characters in the character creator. This concept art of a Kerran looks a lot better for example;
Some shoddy Photoshop work to see how the EQ2 model will look with that style of armor.
Looks pretty awful actually. The style clashing ugghh...
maybe they have sliders for proportion values? maybe whoever created the Kerran for the demo wanted him to look like that? I am pretty sure they will have TONS more options in character creation than just a standard copy-paste model between all characters of each race and gender. I have no worries. I like the Pixar look, as I enjoy those films more than I enjoy live action films. But for those who want less cartoony characters, don't give up your hopes yet. We do know that you have the option for bulky armor or not, even within the heavy category. We just don't know the extent of options for character creation yet though. But. I'm hopeful and really wanting a HUGE number of permutations. Not a fan of combinations. I'd rather have sliders and triangle values rather than selecting predetermined noses/faces/hair/and colors and such like that. Options, options, options!
That is true. Elizabeth from Bioshock has all the features they where going for. She has oversized facial features and would be great for SOE-mote, but she does not look like a Disney Princess.
It's the distinctive way the head, the eyes and the lips are curved on the human character, together with the emotes they gave her, that just epitomize the art style of Disney/Pixar.
The problem I have with this kind of art is that it will always remind me of schmaltzy and shallow storytelling and characters with some kind of annoying bipolar personality that are either crying or singing jolly song.
I know, Pixar has also made some movies that actually tell a good story like Up and WallE but they don't have this kind of princess characters. And just imagine how out of place the graphics would look like if Up was full of violent fight scenes.
Have you ever seen a character for two seconds and already knew you hated everything about it? That is what happened to me with this one. She just looks like a priggish brat.
And the Kerra is just broken beyond repair. There is not a single good thing I could say about the model. His body is more deformed than anything you see in WoW. But is head is even worse. He does not look like a lion and he is no menacing, instead he has a big goofy Snoopy-nose. And while the human character al least has articulate expressions, he looks so lifeless and if he roars it only looks awkward. Just compare him to the Charr from GW2.
The characters don't even match the rest of the graphics in the game. They look like they belong in a differed world.
I really hope SOE can still do something about it.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Yes, you can. You simply move the vertexes of the mesh a big closer to the center aka ... downsizing.
And for these "it is set in stone, now $%& up" cryer ... the impact of the EQ2 models back then was so strong on the games perception/success in Asia that they came up with the SOGA models. A different look for the Asian markets. If the poll is remotely reliable it means that almost 40% do not like the art. If even half of these do skip the game because of the looks (and immersion is not rational but emotional too), there goes a LOT of customer base for EQN.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
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