There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
Although a fun thought exorcise this doesn't actually fit with this scenario. If it were in the "Uncanny Valley" then then an ArtStyle aimed towards a more realistic approach would look gross or wrong...they don't.
In this case it is the opposite direction. Cartoony graphics just look wrong, and seem like they're imitating life which just doesn't fit in realistic looking environments.
We get it. You don't like cartoon graphics. What you need to get is that no one is trying to take that away from you and that no one said current 3D realism doesn't look higher quality than stylized. What plenty have explained, and actually have done a good job doing so, is that over time the 3D realistic stuff does not hold up as well as stylized does.
To use two quality animated movies as an example, The visuals in Cars have stood the test of time far better than those of Advent Children, the latter being twice the length it should be because of the inordinate amount of time spent showing off they can make hair and cloth move. You don't think twice about the facial expressions in Cars, but it's now almost painful to watch some of the Advent Children characters talk.
Not only does the realistic stuff get weird (see Uncanny Valley above) but it also starts to feel dated well before stylized or cartoon-y works do.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Wow got improvement over year, like those shiny DX11 effects and hi-res textures (well, at least on armor and mostly new objects from last 2 expansions). Can you compare some some screenshot from Wow 2013 and Everquest2 2013?
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Example? Remember it has to be an aging game to apply.
Originally posted by NagelRitter Diablo III actually has probably one of my favorite stylized styles. It's not over the top and very balanced.
The developers were WoW developers, and literally said they reused the WoW art-style in Diablo 3 as it "worked out better for them in the long run".
You realize this yes?
The thing is, it isn't a "trend". It's incredibly narrow minded to think that most MMOs go for this style, just because they think people will like it. Here are some reasons:
-It's alot less ressource intensive, allowing you to have more players on the screen, less instancing, larger worlds, better physic, better AI and runs better on older computers.
-If the game had crysis photoreal graphics there would be far less point to EQN landmark. Minecraft is made of blocks because it's simple for people to build or notice how it was so much easier to develop a mod for Half-Life 1 than Half-life 2.
-It's easier/quicker/cheaper for the devs to make new content. Wich is a BIG issue in a genre that's all about keeping up with player content completion.
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Then apply it to stylized, and 99% of your problem is gone. Were you being intentionally obtuse or did you really not get the point?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Arthasm Wow got improvement over year, like those shiny DX11 effects and hi-res textures (well, at least on armor and mostly new objects from last 2 expansions). Can you compare some some screenshot from Wow 2013 and Everquest2 2013?
I don't play WoW, can you do that for us sir ? I'll post some screenies of in-game EQ2 when I get home. Can't find anyone posting screenshots that aren't on low-medium for either game .
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Then apply it to stylized, and 99% of your problem is gone. Were you being intentionally obtuse or did you really not get the point?
We get it, you like Cartoony ArtStyles. You don't have to keep attacking everyone who disagrees with you.
I am all about getting to the next level of photo-realism for graphics on the realism side of the uncanny valley, but we are not there yet in the MMO.
I will gladly settle for stylized design to avoid distraction in game or the game dying from requiring a monster rig that cuts itself off from significant revenue streams.
If this video doesnt clear up alot of the questions about why stylized is selected over realism, especially in MMOs with obscene budgets with little room for risk, then I don't know what else to add to this conversation other than a herp, and possibly derp.
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Then apply it to stylized, and 99% of your problem is gone. Were you being intentionally obtuse or did you really not get the point?
Were you Intentionally obtuse blanketing everything said in this discussion thread by everyone by only referring cartoon graphics as the savior to the uncanny problem? Are you being obtuse by continuing to your disconnect with others opinions that EQNext does not require to go cartoon graphics in order to avoid the valley?
I said the uncanny valley principle isn't a point of debate with EQNext. You brought up up like it would be some sort of enlightenment to everyone. Everyone already knows about it and many do not accept it as an excuse for SOE to make a complete 180 on their previous style.
I can see this will be the end out of personal debate as you simply intend to insult others and not even attempt to understand what they have to say in order to preserve your original stance.
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Then apply it to stylized, and 99% of your problem is gone. Were you being intentionally obtuse or did you really not get the point?
We get it, you like Cartoony ArtStyles. You don't have to keep attacking everyone who disagrees with you.
If you feel it's an attack, report the post. Also, you obviously DON'T get it if you think anything I wrote showed a preference toward any art style.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
They would have been netter off emphasizing another point they made at SOE Live. They said that photorealistic graphics would have been technically arduous for the hardware, and would have put the look of the characters out of sync with the way the world looks due to the way the world is rendered.
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
Then apply it to stylized, and 99% of your problem is gone. Were you being intentionally obtuse or did you really not get the point?
Were you Intentionally obtuse blanketing everything said in this discussion thread by everyone by only referring cartoon graphics as the savior to the uncanny problem? Are you being obtuse by continuing to your disconnect with others opinions that EQNext does not require to go cartoon graphics in order to avoid the valley?
I said the uncanny valley principle isn't a point of debate with EQNext. You brought up up like it would be some sort of enlightenment to everyone. Everyone already knows about it and many do not accept it as an excuse for SOE to make a complete 180 on their previous style.
I can see this will be the end out of personal debate as you simply intend to insult others and not even attempt to understand what they have to say in order to preserve your original stance.
Like Bear, you evidently simply want to argue. I never brought up Uncanny Valley, rather agreed with that post and the other posts like it. It seems like you've forgotten the topic:
"WoW's graphics have looked aged since the day it released. WoW's graphics was simply released at a point where it couldn't get any worse so how could it have aged any more than it already was at release? That's no excuse whatsoever for EQ:N to go the cartoony kindergarten route by any means whatsoever."
People were explaining why SOE went with a stylized route instead of the latest in realism. In short, it historically does not stand the test of time the way stylized does. It's clear you and Bear don't like that answer, but I'm not sure what anyone else can tell you at this point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Arthasm Wow got improvement over year, like those shiny DX11 effects and hi-res textures (well, at least on armor and mostly new objects from last 2 expansions). Can you compare some some screenshot from Wow 2013 and Everquest2 2013?
I don't play WoW, can you do that for us sir ? I'll post some screenies of in-game EQ2 when I get home. Can't find anyone posting screenshots that aren't on low-medium for either game .
As has been pointed out, countless times over the years, WoW's art style was picked for various reasons. One of those major reasons is that WoW will run on a WIDE selection of the installed hardware base. That being the case, it increases the percentage of the gaming audience that can run the game on their current system. Thats good for profitability. The fetish that some people have for photo realistic graphics is not only over blown, but unwise from a profitability perspective.
Originally posted by Wraithone As has been pointed out, countless times over the years, WoW's art style was picked for various reasons. One of those major reasons is that WoW will run on a WIDE selection of the installed hardware base. That being the case, it increases the percentage of the gaming audience that can run the game on their current system. Thats good for profitability. The fetish that some people have for photo realistic graphics is not only over blown, but unwise from a profitability perspective.
Vangaurd: Saga of Heroes was a good example of that. Bugs aside, it was a beautiful game for the people who were actually able to play it, but those people were only a small fraction of the audience that may have liked it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Wraithone As has been pointed out, countless times over the years, WoW's art style was picked for various reasons. One of those major reasons is that WoW will run on a WIDE selection of the installed hardware base. That being the case, it increases the percentage of the gaming audience that can run the game on their current system. Thats good for profitability. The fetish that some people have for photo realistic graphics is not only over blown, but unwise from a profitability perspective.
Vangaurd: Saga of Heroes was a good example of that. Bugs aside, it was a beautiful game for the people who were actually able to play it, but those people were only a small fraction of the audience that may have liked it.
Actually Vanguard, like EQ2, relied too heavily on rendered graphics than the art-styte itself. Also their textures were HORRIBLE.
Vanguard looked bad on release, and still does. The character models seem completely out of place, but the world looks nice.
I'd play Vanguard if the UI wasn't so bad, and the Character models didn't make me cringe !
[edit]: I forgot to mention that the engine is still unoptimized and lags a lot sometimes. I can run EQ2, BF3, etc on ultra without lag. Yet on "High" in Vanguard my FPS takes a dive. o/
EQ2 has some okay character models, but once you look at the game as a whole it doesn't hold up.
It get's increasingly more apparent when you actually boot either game up the difference in quality. You may not like WoW's aesthetic, but it is crisp and clean.
Some will like the art style some wont simple as that....
If you can't get past that aspect of the game then you might as well move on. I really could care either way as the graphics are the least of my worries atm considering it looks like we may be playing another PONG (GW2)
Some will like the art style some wont simple as that....
If you can't get past that aspect of the game then you might as well move on. I really could care either way as the graphics are the least of my worries atm considering it looks like we may be playing another PONG (GW2)
Agree ...but same for trinity vs better AI...move on its not for you if you dont like it. Accept game mechanics or choose an other game (I dont like it but accept it).
Comments
The developers were WoW developers, and literally said they reused the WoW art-style in Diablo 3 as it "worked out better for them in the long run".
We get it. You don't like cartoon graphics. What you need to get is that no one is trying to take that away from you and that no one said current 3D realism doesn't look higher quality than stylized. What plenty have explained, and actually have done a good job doing so, is that over time the 3D realistic stuff does not hold up as well as stylized does.
To use two quality animated movies as an example, The visuals in Cars have stood the test of time far better than those of Advent Children, the latter being twice the length it should be because of the inordinate amount of time spent showing off they can make hair and cloth move. You don't think twice about the facial expressions in Cars, but it's now almost painful to watch some of the Advent Children characters talk.
Not only does the realistic stuff get weird (see Uncanny Valley above) but it also starts to feel dated well before stylized or cartoon-y works do.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem with this post is that 99% of us here are fully aware of the Uncanny Valley. This is not the issue here. Some games are stylized but do not look cartoon-like. This is not a debate about cartoon graphics being the only option to avoid the uncanny valley. Others have done an amazing job not being cartoonish yet not approaching the valley in any noticeable way.
You stay sassy!
Example? Remember it has to be an aging game to apply.
The thing is, it isn't a "trend". It's incredibly narrow minded to think that most MMOs go for this style, just because they think people will like it. Here are some reasons:
-It's alot less ressource intensive, allowing you to have more players on the screen, less instancing, larger worlds, better physic, better AI and runs better on older computers.
-If the game had crysis photoreal graphics there would be far less point to EQN landmark. Minecraft is made of blocks because it's simple for people to build or notice how it was so much easier to develop a mod for Half-Life 1 than Half-life 2.
-It's easier/quicker/cheaper for the devs to make new content. Wich is a BIG issue in a genre that's all about keeping up with player content completion.
-Uncanny valley as mentioned before.
Then apply it to stylized, and 99% of your problem is gone. Were you being intentionally obtuse or did you really not get the point?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nah. You won't age as well as you post on more threads.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I don't play WoW, can you do that for us sir
? I'll post some screenies of in-game EQ2 when I get home. Can't find anyone posting screenshots that aren't on low-medium for either game 
.
We get it, you like Cartoony ArtStyles. You don't have to keep attacking everyone who disagrees with you.
I wish OP happy playing EQ screenshots...because once the game starts moving, it's entirely different story.
Really good video explaining Stylized vs Realism from Daniel Floyd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTAJBQSm10#at=12
I am all about getting to the next level of photo-realism for graphics on the realism side of the uncanny valley, but we are not there yet in the MMO.
I will gladly settle for stylized design to avoid distraction in game or the game dying from requiring a monster rig that cuts itself off from significant revenue streams.
If this video doesnt clear up alot of the questions about why stylized is selected over realism, especially in MMOs with obscene budgets with little room for risk, then I don't know what else to add to this conversation other than a herp, and possibly derp.
Were you Intentionally obtuse blanketing everything said in this discussion thread by everyone by only referring cartoon graphics as the savior to the uncanny problem? Are you being obtuse by continuing to your disconnect with others opinions that EQNext does not require to go cartoon graphics in order to avoid the valley?
I said the uncanny valley principle isn't a point of debate with EQNext. You brought up up like it would be some sort of enlightenment to everyone. Everyone already knows about it and many do not accept it as an excuse for SOE to make a complete 180 on their previous style.
I can see this will be the end out of personal debate as you simply intend to insult others and not even attempt to understand what they have to say in order to preserve your original stance.
You stay sassy!
If you feel it's an attack, report the post. Also, you obviously DON'T get it if you think anything I wrote showed a preference toward any art style.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
They would have been netter off emphasizing another point they made at SOE Live. They said that photorealistic graphics would have been technically arduous for the hardware, and would have put the look of the characters out of sync with the way the world looks due to the way the world is rendered.
The Age thing seems weak.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Like Bear, you evidently simply want to argue. I never brought up Uncanny Valley, rather agreed with that post and the other posts like it. It seems like you've forgotten the topic:
"WoW's graphics have looked aged since the day it released. WoW's graphics was simply released at a point where it couldn't get any worse so how could it have aged any more than it already was at release? That's no excuse whatsoever for EQ:N to go the cartoony kindergarten route by any means whatsoever."
People were explaining why SOE went with a stylized route instead of the latest in realism. In short, it historically does not stand the test of time the way stylized does. It's clear you and Bear don't like that answer, but I'm not sure what anyone else can tell you at this point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hm dont understand this?
What is wow-2 wow-3 eq-3 and eq-4 ?
Never released games as far as I know, did I miss some releases?
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,763173/World-of-Warcraft-Cataclysm-Experimental-DirectX-11-support/Reviews/
Or google Wow DX11 screens.
Vangaurd: Saga of Heroes was a good example of that. Bugs aside, it was a beautiful game for the people who were actually able to play it, but those people were only a small fraction of the audience that may have liked it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually Vanguard, like EQ2, relied too heavily on rendered graphics than the art-styte itself. Also their textures were HORRIBLE.
Vanguard looked bad on release, and still does. The character models seem completely out of place, but the world looks nice.
I'd play Vanguard if the UI wasn't so bad, and the Character models didn't make me cringe
!
[edit]: I forgot to mention that the engine is still unoptimized and lags a lot sometimes. I can run EQ2, BF3, etc on ultra without lag. Yet on "High" in Vanguard my FPS takes a dive. o/
EQ2 has some okay character models, but once you look at the game as a whole it doesn't hold up.
It get's increasingly more apparent when you actually boot either game up the difference in quality. You may not like WoW's aesthetic, but it is crisp and clean.
Some will like the art style some wont simple as that....
If you can't get past that aspect of the game then you might as well move on. I really could care either way as the graphics are the least of my worries atm considering it looks like we may be playing another PONG (GW2)
Agree ...but same for trinity vs better AI...move on its not for you if you dont like it. Accept game mechanics or choose an other game (I dont like it but accept it).