"Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within" aimed for a realism style and was hit with hard reviews. Any predecessor with a more stylized, high-fantasy aesthetic was judged in a different manner and...
Tbh - Avatar is probably a better example of what can be accomplished with todays gfx. And even Avatars technology is outdated allready. Movies is different than games though, they have the advantages of being pre rendered.
There is allso another angle to it btw. The whole gfx community have moved away from realistic concept art and 3d modelling. The "hip" thing today is creating characters and environments "larger than life". Super detailed reproduction of reality do not get the same applause it once did. The artists wants to leave their finger prints on their work. Hyper realistic 3d models can be done with a template and some photo mapping.
It is not very "sexy" to work with for creative ppl. In a way it can be compared to how art evolved when photographs replaced the need for portrait painting. As a concept artist today you dont feel accomplished after creating photo realistic models.
Add to that the problem with the uncanny valley, mentioned several times in these threads. Credibel realism is a complexed thing - humans have all these subliminals signals which have to be simulated. And i dont even think that area have been properly researched and mapped by psychologists.
Not only is stylised characters more fun to work with for talented artists - it is also alot easier to bring to life.
After so many threads I would've thought people would finally understand that talking graphics has nothing to do with style. Realism comes in many different forms not just how many sun rays are coming through the trees.
I remember the art director woman talking about that their character design stemmed from the initial blocky aesthetic of the world because it was all voxel based. I don't think the game is anywhere near release so there could be plenty of visual changes.
It's really irritating when people are talking about subjectivity and how this isn't gonna be for everyone. Well that's kind of a problem isn't it? Not for everyone. If they are trying to get as many people as possible to play this game then creating a style that is on the opposite end of the spectrum is going to alienate a lot of people. I am not saying people want technical realism with 3d textures and high poly models etc. to utilize their 32gb of ram and tripple sli. What I am saying though is the style should have been more neutral, that way the visuals wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.
Elikal brings up a good point that stylized visuals ageing better was a thing of the past. That's not to say we've reached a peak of graphical fidelity but we can create realistic enough models with smooth curves and animations that are not taxing on the system. A lot of games that came out 5 years ago will still look good in 10 years time. Comparing "realistic" to stylized from 90s and early 00's is ridiculous because everything looked like ass then, with blocky models and low res textures.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the style of this game or any stylized games. I really don't care about the aesthetic of games in the long run, I'm more concerned about how fun it will be to play. Although regardless of styles the Kerra model just looks really stupid.
I have to agree with the poster above as I've experienced this from personal experience. Technical accuracy and photo realism only goes so far in art.
It really would not be photorealism what I need in a MMO. Look at Elder Scrolls Online or GW2. They are not photorealism, but they look good. Or even LOTRO, if you look at the landscapes. That's not photorealism by far, but even after 5 or what years LOTRO still looks good. So I really would not need photorealism as in The Division. But at least for me, EQN just looks TOO cartoony. *shrug*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
the probelm is not about taste. its about the absence of any taste in a majority of gamers. WoW has an incredible art direction - everything fits together, its perfectly, professionally and efficiently done (as in - works on most machines, defines a style in difference to following a style, ...) while EQ was never known for any art direction. If non professionals like you want to see what a difference good art direction makes, look at GW2. If you think anything in this games graphic is random or bad - you have no 'taste' in the sense of - you got no idea of good graphic design.
The thing is that the reason cartoony graphics age better is because the brain is not judging it against the real world around us. So called realistic graphics age a lot faster because the things we have to compare with are everywhere.
It is not so much that WoW for an example have better graphics... It have one of the most basic art-styles out there seeing as it is built on the WC3 style. But since it has no connection to reality in any way shape or form the brain have an easier time to accept anything that is not real.
I am not explaning this very good. The best way i can describe it is early Pixar movies compare to the CGI effects in regular movies at the time. Both have aged but the effects are more cringe worthy because they strive to look realistic.
Am i making sense..?
This is pretty much how I see it. If I boot Warcraft 3 now, I wouldn't mind the graphics at all. If I boot another "realistic" RTS from around that time, I would probably puke.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I could go on for hours, but the idea remains the same. We're not talking about FPS shooter "ultra-realism" graphics here. We're talking about an Art-Style that FITS within the respective game. In this case EQ:N's Art-Style is completely out of place for an Everquest game, and should not be used.
This is a fair point, however, SOE did say theyre going for a remake, rather than a sequel.
Still shots don't do WoW justice at all - that water looks much better in game - and yet that still looks pretty good.
Funny thing I've noticed - WoW looks worse in still shot; imo, EQ2 looks worse moving and better as stills. For what it's worth - graphics are multidementional and I don't think any screenshot gives anyone a clear picture of how 'good' the graphics are.
yeah I've noticed that too. I've taken screenshots of just stunning stuff like the isle of thunder and dreaded wastes, then you look at the screenshot and it looks like half as good lol.
Similarly, the same can be said for EQ2, but i wasn't posting those screenshots for the "water". It was primarily a comparison over the Art-Style, and NOT the graphics as a whole though everyone seems to lump those two together.
Actually, EQ2 looks horrible in movement. Animations are a big part of the immersion and WoW to this day hasnt been bettered in that respect (wildstar looks like they got it right, but still not perfect).
"Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within" aimed for a realism style and was hit with hard reviews. Any predecessor with a more stylized, high-fantasy aesthetic was judged in a different manner and...
I don't know, could be only me but for it's time (2001) that movie has pretty damn good visuals considering the technology wasn't as sophisticated as today.
I have never been a fan of wows cartoon art style.. but other people are.. Myself i think EQ2 has always looked better than WOW.. Vanguard even more so..
at the end of the day we all like different things but as long as the game engine is updated every now and then it will always look good.. I mean look at age of conan that is 5 years old and still one of the best looking MMORPGs out there. but they have updated the engine along the way and kept things up to date.
After so many threads I would've thought people would finally understand that talking graphics has nothing to do with style. Realism comes in many different forms not just how many sun rays are coming through the trees.
I remember the art director woman talking about that their character design stemmed from the initial blocky aesthetic of the world because it was all voxel based. I don't think the game is anywhere near release so there could be plenty of visual changes.
It's really irritating when people are talking about subjectivity and how this isn't gonna be for everyone. Well that's kind of a problem isn't it? Not for everyone. If they are trying to get as many people as possible to play this game then creating a style that is on the opposite end of the spectrum is going to alienate a lot of people. I am not saying people want technical realism with 3d textures and high poly models etc. to utilize their 32gb of ram and tripple sli. What I am saying though is the style should have been more neutral, that way the visuals wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.
Elikal brings up a good point that stylized visuals ageing better was a thing of the past. That's not to say we've reached a peak of graphical fidelity but we can create realistic enough models with smooth curves and animations that are not taxing on the system. A lot of games that came out 5 years ago will still look good in 10 years time. Comparing "realistic" to stylized from 90s and early 00's is ridiculous because everything looked like ass then, with blocky models and low res textures.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the style of this game or any stylized games. I really don't care about the aesthetic of games in the long run, I'm more concerned about how fun it will be to play. Although regardless of styles the Kerra model just looks really stupid.
I have to agree with the poster above as I've experienced this from personal experience. Technical accuracy and photo realism only goes so far in art.
It really would not be photorealism what I need in a MMO. Look at Elder Scrolls Online or GW2. They are not photorealism, but they look good. Or even LOTRO, if you look at the landscapes. That's not photorealism by far, but even after 5 or what years LOTRO still looks good. So I really would not need photorealism as in The Division. But at least for me, EQN just looks TOO cartoony. *shrug*
I dont know about ESO or LOTRO at release, but guild wars 2, even with its style tanks my computer far more than it should, and it has had almost a year for optimisation.(im running a 680 gtx btw)
Im hoping that with this heavy cartoonish style i can run loads of people with stable 60 fps.(with an upgrade to the latest generation available at the time of course)
Also, this game you champion, the division, already looks outdated compared to metro last light cranked to the max.
The thing is that the reason cartoony graphics age better is because the brain is not judging it against the real world around us. So called realistic graphics age a lot faster because the things we have to compare with are everywhere.
It is not so much that WoW for an example have better graphics... It have one of the most basic art-styles out there seeing as it is built on the WC3 style. But since it has no connection to reality in any way shape or form the brain have an easier time to accept anything that is not real.
I am not explaning this very good. The best way i can describe it is early Pixar movies compare to the CGI effects in regular movies at the time. Both have aged but the effects are more cringe worthy because they strive to look realistic.
Am i making sense..?
You made perfect sense, thank you for explaining. It does make sense now.
Whichever art style you prefer, WoWs animations are so smooth it is incredible. I thought TOR came close, but good lord, any other game just can't compare.
And that leads RIGHT into the combat. Combat in WoW is unbeatable in how fluid it is. It's basically an FPS in how it flows. If the animations in WoW were as bad as EQ2 or other games, I'm sure a lot less people would be okay with it.
That's great if you want stylized or realistic. Make sure the game works, the animations are great, and that you can keep working on making it better.
Have you seen Kerran model? You can actually see his teeth and tongue. Don't forget about smooth animation and everything is physics blended not to mention about engine's fantastic lightning and clothes physics.
you can't just slap cartoon look to it and call it a masterpiece. You need excellent designers to design the stuff that can age well and look pretty at the same time. EQN team learned it's past mistakes and this time they have a winner.
For example SWTOR looks ugly and Wildstar has no identity compared to EQN while World Of Warcraft design is fantastic, fluid and so on and on.
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
EQ had to create these theories about why WoW won the war for subs. One of these excuses was the "cartoony graphics are timeless" argument. Apparently, they believe this theory enough to stake their next game on it.
Personally, I think what WoW did well was the animation itself. The character movement was smoother than EQ. In my estimation, EQ's graphics are superior.
What they should have done is take EQ 2's more realistic, less exaggerated look & try to stylize the movement animation to make it more fluid.
Of course the EQN team is made up of egomaniacs, so no matter what the outside world says, this game will continue on the Pixar path. You'll get the future of MMO's, whether you like it or not.
F. This! Because it doesn't WORK! It doesn't. Cartoonish look of WoW looks better graphically and in animation. Period. You can look at the latest Mists Of Pandaria trailers and they look amazing compared to most of Next Gen mmo's out there. If you really believe that you know better then the developer that actually test Something and has information about players and what they want then you are delusional.
"Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within" aimed for a realism style and was hit with hard reviews. Any predecessor with a more stylized, high-fantasy aesthetic was judged in a different manner and...
I don't know, could be only me but for it's time (2001) that movie has pretty damn good visuals considering the technology wasn't as sophisticated as today.
There's a fact though... I love FF:The Spirits Within, I own it on blu-ray, but it has aged quite a bit when compared to movies like Avatar. The more stylized/cartoonish graphics of older Pixar movies have aged much better in comparison.
The Spirits Within was pretty good graphically, but most of the negativity surrounding it was really down to the overall plot, which was not that good tbh, Advents Children was far superior, loved that film a lot, but its not the only one there are also the Appleseed films, Appleseed and Applseed Ex Machina, overall the graphics are far better than any of the pixar/disney films which have their own definitive style which i consider to be mostly aimed at small children anyway.
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
clap, clap, clap, clap (aplauses)
It's more a hypotethis than a fact. Personally I never have really experienced this "uncanny valley". I guess it is, as many things, a matter of perception.
Besides, even if it DOES exist, with graphics today we long left the "uncanny valley" behind. We are WELL capable to show good enough realism. It was maybe fitting for games 10 years ago, but not today.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Since both game's are using a different engine im sorry to tell you OP but this thread its totally useless, its like comparing mirror's edge and battlefield.
Also i encourage you to delete the thread and make a new one, maybe without comparing it to a totally different game and focusing just on the graphics engine of Everquest next.
I like the coloring upgrade in swtor, it enhances the details a lot, just by improving the colors
it's like removing a filter eh?
The team takes a few screenshots of the area in question, and then edits them with photo editing software. The changes made are then coded into a texture, which is placed on the area originally screenshotted. This allows the game engine to make the color adjustments on the fly.
According to the dev blog, this new tech allows the art team to adjust SWTOR's final color output in very much the same way one would edit a photograph, with almost the same amount of flexibility.
WoW's graphics have looked aged since the day it released. WoW's graphics was simply released at a point where it couldn't get any worse so how could it have aged any more than it already was at release? That's no excuse whatsoever for EQ:N to go the cartoony kindergarten route by any means whatsoever.
.
To be honest, started to play wow only after BC because when looking friends kids playing all looked to me like for small kids. I'm over 50 btw. :-) Besides many of them had pretty mediocre computers with small monitors.
But later, after being disappointed or bored fast by any other games (including of course EQ and EQ2, GW, and virtually all the rest), under suggestion of friend of mine tried finally wow. And ... WOW ... what a discovery! Game was by mechanics and overall quality superior in any sense to any thing I have tried ever.
And then suddenly discovered that actually game does have cartoony graphics, but GREAT cartoony. And now love it, scenery from any expansion are breath taking, .... And that little improvements they did were all that was needed.
As for realism ... people always want more. Aoc was pretty realistic at release time. If I look now .. just no-no. Rift also was display of realism ... being outdated 1 year after.
Of course Imo. And I'm not alone in this.
But guess you just hate wow, probably never played, ...and here there is nothing Wow/Blizzard can do because it is not their fault. It is yours.
wow graphic are bugs bunny or road runner style ! so even if they made a brand new wow from 0 it would still look the way you see now !people have a hard time accepting that the art style would stay the same !if you see blurry image you re system has setting issue ! oh they could bump quality a tick or 2 for trees and ground etc !but the character would look exactly the same !
Comments
Tbh - Avatar is probably a better example of what can be accomplished with todays gfx. And even Avatars technology is outdated allready. Movies is different than games though, they have the advantages of being pre rendered.
There is allso another angle to it btw. The whole gfx community have moved away from realistic concept art and 3d modelling. The "hip" thing today is creating characters and environments "larger than life". Super detailed reproduction of reality do not get the same applause it once did. The artists wants to leave their finger prints on their work. Hyper realistic 3d models can be done with a template and some photo mapping.
It is not very "sexy" to work with for creative ppl. In a way it can be compared to how art evolved when photographs replaced the need for portrait painting. As a concept artist today you dont feel accomplished after creating photo realistic models.
Add to that the problem with the uncanny valley, mentioned several times in these threads.
Credibel realism is a complexed thing - humans have all these subliminals signals which have to be simulated. And i dont even think that area have been properly researched and mapped by psychologists.
Not only is stylised characters more fun to work with for talented artists - it is also alot easier to bring to life.
EDIT: nvm I don't care to start an argument.
It really would not be photorealism what I need in a MMO. Look at Elder Scrolls Online or GW2. They are not photorealism, but they look good. Or even LOTRO, if you look at the landscapes. That's not photorealism by far, but even after 5 or what years LOTRO still looks good. So I really would not need photorealism as in The Division. But at least for me, EQN just looks TOO cartoony. *shrug*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
People that bag out WoW graphics are always the people with a low end pc or don't have a clue about maximising the graphics options in game.
If you put everything up to max, it is a beautiful game with great animations and high detail where it matters.
Most importantly it runs well at max settings.
Games are unplayable when they run at 20/30 fps especially in a competitive game where a split second makes all the difference.
It needs to be 50/60 fps and a high level of detail which WoW is both with a decent rig.
To compare it to EQ2 is laughable.
EQ2 runs well but has poor animations and the graphics have aged very badly.
This is pretty much how I see it. If I boot Warcraft 3 now, I wouldn't mind the graphics at all. If I boot another "realistic" RTS from around that time, I would probably puke.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
... and still WoW looks and has always looked better.
Most people have a better eye for aesthetics than supporters of this notion that WoW is ugly, thankfully.
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
This is a fair point, however, SOE did say theyre going for a remake, rather than a sequel.
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
@OP
did it ever come to your mind they had to choose this artystyle with a smaller spectrum of colors because of the whole voxel system....
I don't know, could be only me but for it's time (2001) that movie has pretty damn good visuals considering the technology wasn't as sophisticated as today.
I have never been a fan of wows cartoon art style.. but other people are.. Myself i think EQ2 has always looked better than WOW.. Vanguard even more so..
at the end of the day we all like different things but as long as the game engine is updated every now and then it will always look good.. I mean look at age of conan that is 5 years old and still one of the best looking MMORPGs out there. but they have updated the engine along the way and kept things up to date.
I dont know about ESO or LOTRO at release, but guild wars 2, even with its style tanks my computer far more than it should, and it has had almost a year for optimisation.(im running a 680 gtx btw)
Im hoping that with this heavy cartoonish style i can run loads of people with stable 60 fps.(with an upgrade to the latest generation available at the time of course)
Also, this game you champion, the division, already looks outdated compared to metro last light cranked to the max.
Just saying.
You made perfect sense, thank you for explaining. It does make sense now.
Whichever art style you prefer, WoWs animations are so smooth it is incredible. I thought TOR came close, but good lord, any other game just can't compare.
And that leads RIGHT into the combat. Combat in WoW is unbeatable in how fluid it is. It's basically an FPS in how it flows. If the animations in WoW were as bad as EQ2 or other games, I'm sure a lot less people would be okay with it.
That's great if you want stylized or realistic. Make sure the game works, the animations are great, and that you can keep working on making it better.
and btw about Everquest grfx!111
Have you seen Kerran model? You can actually see his teeth and tongue. Don't forget about smooth animation and everything is physics blended not to mention about engine's fantastic lightning and clothes physics.
you can't just slap cartoon look to it and call it a masterpiece. You need excellent designers to design the stuff that can age well and look pretty at the same time. EQN team learned it's past mistakes and this time they have a winner.
For example SWTOR looks ugly and Wildstar has no identity compared to EQN while World Of Warcraft design is fantastic, fluid and so on and on.
clap, clap, clap, clap (aplauses)
BTW, they tried realistic look with EQ Next.
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/1992/1838245-eqnext.jpg
and you know what they said?
F. This! Because it doesn't WORK! It doesn't. Cartoonish look of WoW looks better graphically and in animation. Period. You can look at the latest Mists Of Pandaria trailers and they look amazing compared to most of Next Gen mmo's out there. If you really believe that you know better then the developer that actually test Something and has information about players and what they want then you are delusional.
The Spirits Within was pretty good graphically, but most of the negativity surrounding it was really down to the overall plot, which was not that good tbh, Advents Children was far superior, loved that film a lot, but its not the only one there are also the Appleseed films, Appleseed and Applseed Ex Machina, overall the graphics are far better than any of the pixar/disney films which have their own definitive style which i consider to be mostly aimed at small children anyway.
It's more a hypotethis than a fact. Personally I never have really experienced this "uncanny valley". I guess it is, as many things, a matter of perception.
Besides, even if it DOES exist, with graphics today we long left the "uncanny valley" behind. We are WELL capable to show good enough realism. It was maybe fitting for games 10 years ago, but not today.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Since both game's are using a different engine im sorry to tell you OP but this thread its totally useless, its like comparing mirror's edge and battlefield.
Also i encourage you to delete the thread and make a new one, maybe without comparing it to a totally different game and focusing just on the graphics engine of Everquest next.
I like the coloring upgrade in swtor, it enhances the details a lot, just by improving the colors
it's like removing a filter eh?
The team takes a few screenshots of the area in question, and then edits them with photo editing software. The changes made are then coded into a texture, which is placed on the area originally screenshotted. This allows the game engine to make the color adjustments on the fly.
According to the dev blog, this new tech allows the art team to adjust SWTOR's final color output in very much the same way one would edit a photograph, with almost the same amount of flexibility.
To be honest, started to play wow only after BC because when looking friends kids playing all looked to me like for small kids. I'm over 50 btw. :-) Besides many of them had pretty mediocre computers with small monitors.
But later, after being disappointed or bored fast by any other games (including of course EQ and EQ2, GW, and virtually all the rest), under suggestion of friend of mine tried finally wow. And ... WOW ... what a discovery! Game was by mechanics and overall quality superior in any sense to any thing I have tried ever.
And then suddenly discovered that actually game does have cartoony graphics, but GREAT cartoony. And now love it, scenery from any expansion are breath taking, .... And that little improvements they did were all that was needed.
As for realism ... people always want more. Aoc was pretty realistic at release time. If I look now .. just no-no. Rift also was display of realism ... being outdated 1 year after.
Of course Imo. And I'm not alone in this.
But guess you just hate wow, probably never played, ...and here there is nothing Wow/Blizzard can do because it is not their fault. It is yours.