In ArchAge, the Criminal System, with its Court/Prison mechanics works its intended purpose because it is part of Gameplay.
Lets not split hairs here. I think the Topic implies an element of the game. We are not talking about "punishment" here.
Actually, the OP not only implies punishment but specifically states it is to deter random killings and intended as an "anti-griefing tool"
Look, it's great that you want to sell ArcheAge and all. There's a couple others here that are as giddy for it as you are. Again, ArcheAge's design is intended as gameplay for the PVPers, not as punishment for being a PVPer. It is a very different approach to the content than what is being talked about here.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Who is the target audience for this particular mechanic? Are you trying to appeal to people who otherwise wouldn't be interested in OW/FFA PvP, or are you trying to see what kinds of mechanics people who are interested in OW/FFA PvP are interested in?
This .. i think is the key question.
I doubt very much that those who would avoid ow ffa pvp in the first place would change their minds just because of a prison system.
Agreed. The audience the content is geared toward is the key factor here.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In ArchAge, the Criminal System, with its Court/Prison mechanics works its intended purpose because it is part of Gameplay.
Lets not split hairs here. I think the Topic implies an element of the game. We are not talking about "punishment" here.
Actually, the OP not only implies punishment but specifically states it is to deter random killings and intended as an "anti-griefing tool"
Look, it's great that you want to sell ArcheAge and all. There's a couple others here that are as giddy for it as you are. Again, ArcheAge's design is intended as gameplay for the PVPers, not as punishment for being a PVPer. It is a very different approach to the content than what is being talked about here.
Exactly. I am not going to play ArcheAge because it is so pvp focus. Anti-griefing tool is not necessarily in games where griefing (in this case, PK griefing) is not possible.
In fact, why eliminate have those tools? People who like no griefing go play pve games, with no ffa ow pvp. Those who like griefing one another go to play an ffa ow pvp game with no prison.
In ArchAge, the Criminal System, with its Court/Prison mechanics works its intended purpose because it is part of Gameplay.
Lets not split hairs here. I think the Topic implies an element of the game. We are not talking about "punishment" here.
Actually, the OP not only implies punishment but specifically states it is to deter random killings and intended as an "anti-griefing tool"
Look, it's great that you want to sell ArcheAge and all. There's a couple others here that are as giddy for it as you are. Again, ArcheAge's design is intended as gameplay for the PVPers, not as punishment for being a PVPer. It is a very different approach to the content than what is being talked about here.
Exactly. I am not going to play ArcheAge because it is so pvp focus. Anti-griefing tool is not necessarily in games where griefing (in this case, PK griefing) is not possible.
In fact, why eliminate have those tools? People who like no griefing go play pve games, with no ffa ow pvp. Those who like griefing one another go to play an ffa ow pvp game with no prison.
Problem solved.
First, my interpretation of "to deter random killings" and "anti-griefing tool" does not imply "punishment", and does imply a mechanic which is an integral part of the game's design...
It is completely rediculous to even think making a game with the intent of punishing your players. Only players think like that "Ohh we want that group punished, we want a whip with electrodes, we want the player to be electrocuted when they die"...
Games are not made like that, games are made with the intent to provide Fun for all.
Anyone who has played OW FFA games knows that these games can go south pretty quickly and many do not see them as fun. It is why it is important to have a good balance that deters (not eliminates) griefing and random killings. This can be accomplished by a mechanic that translates in some form in to the gameplay itself.
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
As someone who prefers OW FFA PvP MMOs I am participating in the discussion and bringing in my view, I think it is a nice topic and I think we need more discussions like that within the community to at least entertain the idea of OW FFA PvP and how it can be fun for all.
Third, I bring up Arch Age because it is an Example which directly answers The Topic. It is a living example in front of our eyes...I could have used EVE online's Criminal System or UO's..but AA actually implements the mechanic that is the topic of the discussion and it is most relevant. Anyone ignoring this must really be narrow-minded.
And my point is that the only way to implement a Prison feature in a Game is to make it part of the gameplay. Otherwise the discussion is a waste of time and everything everyone says is pretty much Moot.
Who in their right mind makes a game with OW FFA PvP and then deploy resources to manage imprisonment of player that fight within that system as a form of punishment? it is ludicrous, and so is any discussion upon that line.
So please do not try to dismiss the points I am trying to make by attempting to categorize me like some AA fan Boi trying to promote a particular game.
I never played AA, for all I know it could turn out to be a Korean Grind Fest, full or RMTers...it will go in the Garbage Can quite fast like some others...trust me.
Nevertheless, it is worthy of mention since it has a working system of Imprisonment which, at least based on accounts of other players, works well and answers much and directly any questions/concerns of this discussion.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
You obviously don't understand the internet very well.
Make a thread ranting about lack of death penalty ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about modern MMO is good ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about instances is good (or bad .. does not matter) ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
...
I think you get the idea.
Making a thread about ow ffa pvp .. the LAST thing you should expect is those who dislike ow ffa pvp would restrain from showing up and air their side of the story.
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
You obviously don't understand the internet very well.
Make a thread ranting about lack of death penalty ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about modern MMO is good ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about instances is good (or bad .. does not matter) ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
...
I think you get the idea.
Making a thread about ow ffa pvp .. the LAST thing you should expect is those who dislike ow ffa pvp would restrain from showing up and air their side of the story.
Hahaha, yes, you are right, and I am aware of it, since 10-14 years or so by now That is why I just gave my thinking. I do not have the expectation that it is going to be like that however. :P
One can still hope though O.o
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Hahaha, yes, you are right, and I am aware of it, since 10-14 years or so by now That is why I just gave my thinking. I do not have the expectation that it is going to be like that however. :P
One can still hope though O.o
From my observations, the law of the internet (if you post, your opposition will show up and flame) is pretty rigid. There is no hope.
Hahaha, yes, you are right, and I am aware of it, since 10-14 years or so by now That is why I just gave my thinking. I do not have the expectation that it is going to be like that however. :P
One can still hope though O.o
From my observations, the law of the internet (if you post, your opposition will show up and flame) is pretty rigid. There is no hope.
On the other hand, if it is constructive, I think it is fine for even those who oppose the ideas to share their view.
How goes that saying again?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
but the "law of the internet" may not have been taken under account... XD
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
In a sandbox game where players police themselves could you accept the risk of imprisonment for breaking laws by stealing, killing or harming another player inside their territory if defeated?
I ask this because I know one of the biggest things about FFA PvP is that even when players band together to stop gankers they just return. Eventually this leads to apathy of stopping the random killer.
With rule of law given to the community the ability to lock up player killers up I think you might have a lot less random killings. This of course does not stop wars and the like but focus on the random killers.
I agree whole heartedly that the community should be given power to defend themselves.
In ArchAge, the Criminal System, with its Court/Prison mechanics works its intended purpose because it is part of Gameplay.
Lets not split hairs here. I think the Topic implies an element of the game. We are not talking about "punishment" here.
Actually, the OP not only implies punishment but specifically states it is to deter random killings and intended as an "anti-griefing tool"
Look, it's great that you want to sell ArcheAge and all. There's a couple others here that are as giddy for it as you are. Again, ArcheAge's design is intended as gameplay for the PVPers, not as punishment for being a PVPer. It is a very different approach to the content than what is being talked about here.
Exactly. I am not going to play ArcheAge because it is so pvp focus. Anti-griefing tool is not necessarily in games where griefing (in this case, PK griefing) is not possible.
In fact, why eliminate have those tools? People who like no griefing go play pve games, with no ffa ow pvp. Those who like griefing one another go to play an ffa ow pvp game with no prison.
Problem solved.
First, my interpretation of "to deter random killings" and "anti-griefing tool" does not imply "punishment", and does imply a mechanic which is an integral part of the game's design...
It is completely rediculous to even think making a game with the intent of punishing your players. Only players think like that "Ohh we want that group punished, we want a whip with electrodes, we want the player to be electrocuted when they die"...
Games are not made like that, games are made with the intent to provide Fun for all.
Anyone who has played OW FFA games knows that these games can go south pretty quickly and many do not see them as fun. It is why it is important to have a good balance that deters (not eliminates) griefing and random killings. This can be accomplished by a mechanic that translates in some form in to the gameplay itself.
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
As someone who prefers OW FFA PvP MMOs I am participating in the discussion and bringing in my view, I think it is a nice topic and I think we need more discussions like that within the community to at least entertain the idea of OW FFA PvP and how it can be fun for all.
Third, I bring up Arch Age because it is an Example which directly answers The Topic. It is a living example in front of our eyes...I could have used EVE online's Criminal System or UO's..but AA actually implements the mechanic that is the topic of the discussion and it is most relevant. Anyone ignoring this must really be narrow-minded.
And my point is that the only way to implement a Prison feature in a Game is to make it part of the gameplay. Otherwise the discussion is a waste of time and everything everyone says is pretty much Moot.
Who in their right mind makes a game with OW FFA PvP and then deploy resources to manage imprisonment of player that fight within that system as a form of punishment? it is ludicrous, and so is any discussion upon that line.
So please do not try to dismiss the points I am trying to make by attempting to categorize me like some AA fan Boi trying to promote a particular game.
I never played AA, for all I know it could turn out to be a Korean Grind Fest, full or RMTers...it will go in the Garbage Can quite fast like some others...trust me.
Nevertheless, it is worthy of mention since it has a working system of Imprisonment which, at least based on accounts of other players, works well and answers much and directly any questions/concerns of this discussion.
Cheers!
Thanks you have answered with exactly what I'm thinking. Much of the questioning seems to be coming from a place of lack of understanding of FFA PvP games. I'm coming from the view of a person who was a random killer and now interested in a more balanced world building experience.
The goal was to give players the options and freedom of FFA PvP and mentioned this one tool as a helper to prevent it from becoming Lords of the Flies. Of course those who don't even want or understand the plights of FFA PvP are not going to get it. I don't mind the discussion input but if it harps on telling what we're thinking the idea is it seems weird and pointless if we state it otherwise.
I want random killers to be hard but more rare player choice, but a choice. I want danger to be had by the risk not only for the innocent being killed but killer being captured and held. There are also other methods to go along with this as well. It's not meant to be overly harsh. It's meant to provide short term relief from criminals. Even if the player is locked up for hours that's a play session for many people. Not to mention there would be other indirect deterrents.
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
You obviously don't understand the internet very well.
Make a thread ranting about lack of death penalty ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about modern MMO is good ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about instances is good (or bad .. does not matter) ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
...
I think you get the idea.
Making a thread about ow ffa pvp .. the LAST thing you should expect is those who dislike ow ffa pvp would restrain from showing up and air their side of the story.
In my experience a lot of the non-pvp crowd don't have a side of the story. The vast majority of the mmo market today came about AFTER the watering down of the genre with games like WoW and haven't given any game with ow pvp a proper chance. As far as I'm concerned the few that have done it reasonably well are UO, EvE and Shadowbane... mostly the first 2. The only one that's still around and resembles its original form in some way is EvE, and that has enough barriers to entry that it's going to screen a lot of people out aside from the ow pvp.
Basically I'm not really interested in the opinion of somebody who hasn't really given that genre a chance. Seems like a lot of people just make the rule for themselves that they won't play an ow pvp game, and that's that. Well to me ow pvp games are no different than the niche markets of any other kind of entertainment. It's like somebody who listens to shitty top 40 radio music saying they don't like classical because they got a little taste of it growing up and decided it was too "boring". When in reality, they haven't put in the time/emotional investment to reap the rewards.
In ArchAge, the Criminal System, with its Court/Prison mechanics works its intended purpose because it is part of Gameplay.
Lets not split hairs here. I think the Topic implies an element of the game. We are not talking about "punishment" here.
Actually, the OP not only implies punishment but specifically states it is to deter random killings and intended as an "anti-griefing tool"
Look, it's great that you want to sell ArcheAge and all. There's a couple others here that are as giddy for it as you are. Again, ArcheAge's design is intended as gameplay for the PVPers, not as punishment for being a PVPer. It is a very different approach to the content than what is being talked about here.
Exactly. I am not going to play ArcheAge because it is so pvp focus. Anti-griefing tool is not necessarily in games where griefing (in this case, PK griefing) is not possible.
In fact, why eliminate have those tools? People who like no griefing go play pve games, with no ffa ow pvp. Those who like griefing one another go to play an ffa ow pvp game with no prison.
Problem solved.
First, my interpretation of "to deter random killings" and "anti-griefing tool" does not imply "punishment", and does imply a mechanic which is an integral part of the game's design...
It is completely rediculous to even think making a game with the intent of punishing your players. Only players think like that "Ohh we want that group punished, we want a whip with electrodes, we want the player to be electrocuted when they die"...
Games are not made like that, games are made with the intent to provide Fun for all.
Anyone who has played OW FFA games knows that these games can go south pretty quickly and many do not see them as fun. It is why it is important to have a good balance that deters (not eliminates) griefing and random killings. This can be accomplished by a mechanic that translates in some form in to the gameplay itself.
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
As someone who prefers OW FFA PvP MMOs I am participating in the discussion and bringing in my view, I think it is a nice topic and I think we need more discussions like that within the community to at least entertain the idea of OW FFA PvP and how it can be fun for all.
Third, I bring up Arch Age because it is an Example which directly answers The Topic. It is a living example in front of our eyes...I could have used EVE online's Criminal System or UO's..but AA actually implements the mechanic that is the topic of the discussion and it is most relevant. Anyone ignoring this must really be narrow-minded.
And my point is that the only way to implement a Prison feature in a Game is to make it part of the gameplay. Otherwise the discussion is a waste of time and everything everyone says is pretty much Moot.
Who in their right mind makes a game with OW FFA PvP and then deploy resources to manage imprisonment of player that fight within that system as a form of punishment? it is ludicrous, and so is any discussion upon that line.
So please do not try to dismiss the points I am trying to make by attempting to categorize me like some AA fan Boi trying to promote a particular game.
I never played AA, for all I know it could turn out to be a Korean Grind Fest, full or RMTers...it will go in the Garbage Can quite fast like some others...trust me.
Nevertheless, it is worthy of mention since it has a working system of Imprisonment which, at least based on accounts of other players, works well and answers much and directly any questions/concerns of this discussion.
Cheers!
Thanks you have answered with exactly what I'm thinking. Much of the questioning seems to be coming from a place of lack of understanding of FFA PvP games. I'm coming from the view of a person who was a random killer and now interested in a more balanced world building experience.
The goal was to give players the options and freedom of FFA PvP and mentioned this one tool as a helper to prevent it from becoming Lords of the Flies. Of course those who don't even want or understand the plights of FFA PvP are not going to get it. I don't mind the discussion input but if it harps on telling what we're thinking the idea is it seems weird and pointless if we state it otherwise.
I want random killers to be hard but more rare player choice, but a choice. I want danger to be had by the risk not only for the innocent being killed but killer being captured and held. There are also other methods to go along with this as well. It's not meant to be overly harsh. It's meant to provide short term relief from criminals. Even if the player is locked up for hours that's a play session for many people. Not to mention there would be other indirect deterrents.
I'm on board with the goal: make PKing a viable option, but it should be a somewhat difficult path. You don't want the DEFAULT to be just attack everybody for no apparent reason. I loved the fact that in UO you had actual recognizable names of players/clans that were... bad guys essentially. You had actual villains in the game. And the reason you could have villains is because the vast majority of the people you'd run into in dungeons were blues. For the most part blue players would stick together if PK's were around. That's not really the case in a game like Darkfall because everybody just attacks everybody else for the most part.
However, while I like the IDEA of a jail system, I'm not sure it's a great thing to put in a game. I love the sound of it, and how deliciously organic and sandbox it is, but I just don't know how I feel about a mechanic that stops you from playing the game. It's a game, and it's meant to be played. I don't think it would be all that difficult to deter mindless killing without something that stops you from playing, considering UO was pretty close and they didn't even really do that much. A big thing is not letting murderers allowed in towns, and possibly other restrictions regarding player-run merchants or quests (if the game has any).
What if one of the player's characters is jailed? He can still play the game on other characters. That still makes it a punishment, without preventing him from playing the game completely.
Another possibility (or complementary) would be to make gameplay available inside the prison. People could hang around, train skills, practice PvP, do some crafting.
Of course it shouldn't be so attractive, that ppl would prefer to go to jail.
Eh I don't think having separate content inside the jail is a good idea. It's just that much effort they're not spending on the rest of the game. Also, it would sometimes act as encouragement to pk, not as a deterrent.
The separate characters thing makes jail time a little better I guess, but then again is it even a punishment at that point? I like gameplay changes like notoriety. Stuff that sticks with you and can't be ignored like jail time.
I was thinking about a system where the more you kill players, the harder the server makes the world for you. It involved a whole system of gods and demons that inhabited the world, and their avatars and priests contributing, but the gist of it was that as the player became more notorious, the more the game antagonistic towards that player.
The goal wouldn't be to get them out of the game or to punish them, but rather move them away from player killing for no reason. It would have to be balanced in such a way that they could work or pay off their debt, perhaps by paying the players they killed or something, so that there would be some seemingly random player killing, but it wouldn't be to the extent that it exists in games like War Z. Players have to be able to build things for the world to be meaningful.
I'm not against the idea of a jail, but I don't think it should be run or managed by players at all. Players are the last people you'd want running something like that. Let the system manage it. Shadow agents of the emperor or something are constantly watching everyone and step in when people get out of hand. I don't know, I just wouldn't leave it up to the players. Even requiring that the "red" people be killed by players before going to jail might be too much to expect. You probably couldn't have rewards for killing "red" players, because it would get exploited, and without rewards they aren't going to risk getting killed just to send the "red" players to jail. So, automation is the way to go.
My opinion of course.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm on board with the goal: make PKing a viable option, but it should be a somewhat difficult path. You don't want the DEFAULT to be just attack everybody for no apparent reason. I loved the fact that in UO you had actual recognizable names of players/clans that were... bad guys essentially. You had actual villains in the game. And the reason you could have villains is because the vast majority of the people you'd run into in dungeons were blues. For the most part blue players would stick together if PK's were around. That's not really the case in a game like Darkfall because everybody just attacks everybody else for the most part.
However, while I like the IDEA of a jail system, I'm not sure it's a great thing to put in a game. I love the sound of it, and how deliciously organic and sandbox it is, but I just don't know how I feel about a mechanic that stops you from playing the game. It's a game, and it's meant to be played. I don't think it would be all that difficult to deter mindless killing without something that stops you from playing, considering UO was pretty close and they didn't even really do that much. A big thing is not letting murderers allowed in towns, and possibly other restrictions regarding player-run merchants or quests (if the game has any).
Pretty much my contention, as well. UO and EVE allow the Good Guys, the Bad Guys, and the undeniably Ugly places to flourish. Both games allow players to become complete outcasts if they want, although UO's flaw early on was in making that the most profitable path in the entire game. As long as the path is on par with other paths, you'll naturally curb PKing as the ones that will choose it are the ones that prefer that particular playstyle.
The problem with this thread is that it focuses on an unknown, and that unknown is the appropriate threshold for number and frequency of PKing in the game world. The variable that fluctuates the most is the community's acceptance level of that playstyle which, as we have already seen from AC, WOW and several other MMOs, varies from server to server as each one develops its own identity and its own community.
One of the many neat PVP-related features of UO was Buccaneer's Den. It was a town/island without NPC guards that provided a place for the PKs to congregate, still access a bank, and have some basic NPCs they can interact with. More importantly, it gave a place where the PK community could interact on relatively neutral ground.
I'm completely in favor of mechanics that channel a playstyle rather than create abrupt obstacles to it based on arbitrary impositions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hahaha, yes, you are right, and I am aware of it, since 10-14 years or so by now That is why I just gave my thinking. I do not have the expectation that it is going to be like that however. :P
One can still hope though O.o
From my observations, the law of the internet (if you post, your opposition will show up and flame) is pretty rigid. There is no hope.
On the other hand, if it is constructive, I think it is fine for even those who oppose the ideas to share their view.
How goes that saying again?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
but the "law of the internet" may not have been taken under account... XD
The point is that whether it is constructive or not is moot. Flames will always be there.
Now you can hope for some constructive discussions. It is not a given, but not an impossibility either.
In my experience a lot of the non-pvp crowd don't have a side of the story. The vast majority of the mmo market today came about AFTER the watering down of the genre with games like WoW and haven't given any game with ow pvp a proper chance.
What is a "proper" chance? I played UO beta a while and hated PK .. so i quit. Is that a "proper" or an "improper" chance?
And it is moot anyway. If the audience decide not to give it a chance, proper or not, fair or not, no sane devs is going to try to go against the demand.
Personally i have tried enough, and like it or not, ow ffa pvp (in a pve game, i do play PS2 from time to time) has no chance from me. I doubt you will miss me anyway.
Originally posted by Rasputin What if one of the player's characters is jailed? He can still play the game on other characters. That still makes it a punishment, without preventing him from playing the game completely.
Originally posted by Rasputin
Another possibility (or complementary) would be to make gameplay available inside the prison. People could hang around, train skills, practice PvP, do some crafting.
Of course it shouldn't be so attractive, that ppl would prefer to go to jail.
Originally posted by Holophonist Eh I don't think having separate content inside the jail is a good idea. It's just that much effort they're not spending on the rest of the game. Also, it would sometimes act as encouragement to pk, not as a deterrent.
The separate characters thing makes jail time a little better I guess, but then again is it even a punishment at that point? I like gameplay changes like notoriety. Stuff that sticks with you and can't be ignored like jail time.
All this has been answered a couple of pages back, I posted a couple of Links of a Developed, implemented and working in Production Imprisonment system in Arch Age. Along with player feedback. It has been received in quite a positive way.
Vermillon agreed
Loktofeit, yes in principle I agree with you as well. What is missing is the giving the choice to players to choose to be the Good the Bad and the Ugly. Most MMO's that went down the other path, simply striped that choice from the player.
I surmize because, Devs cannot control what Evil Players may choose to do, so their solution was simply to move all of the players to the "good" side, and control the Evil by having it being represented by NPC's, and shove the "Hero" notion down our throats.
And now we are a t a point where the playerbase has changed, any old schoolers excepted, the majority of the players just do not have the notion of Good vs Evil anymore within the context of PvP.
Yet, we are again at a turning point, and Sandbox is making a come back.
So I think the imprisonment mechanic that is part of gameplay in addition to the existing known mechanisms, is pretty much a requirement to balance a OW FFA game today, as it also serves to educate the newer players about the notion of consequence and accountability of the choice to be "evil" and perfoming "evil" actions.
It is like, "what??? I killed a couple of guys for fun, why am I considered a criminal now? I did not know this was a "bad" thing, it is FFA PvP!!"...
EVE and UO never had it but both games are played by mainly old schoolers,who do Educate new players about it.. so it still works there without imprisonment.
Yet, any new game, will have to have a couple extra measures in place if it is to attract and keep new players in it. Something that I beleive Darkfall failed miserbly to do. Imprisonment mechanic is one of the Options which can work towards that end... because, in reality, I also think many here, understand how exciting and vibrant and ALIVE an OW FFA PvP MMO can be when it is properly balanced...and I so much long for one...and would actually like to see newer players introduce themselves to one as well first hand...
I try to explain the feeling of it in many guild discussions in TS/Vent but it simply does not register...newer MMO players simply have no frame of reference... even he notion of the community self policing itself is really not clear to many...because there is no notion of good vs evil...
In the heads of many, everyone is still "Good" and if the game allows FFA PvP it is ok to just kill anyone not part of one's group directly...everyone perceives it ok to have fun randomly killing newbies and laugh about it.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I'm on board with the goal: make PKing a viable option, but it should be a somewhat difficult path. You don't want the DEFAULT to be just attack everybody for no apparent reason. I loved the fact that in UO you had actual recognizable names of players/clans that were... bad guys essentially. You had actual villains in the game. And the reason you could have villains is because the vast majority of the people you'd run into in dungeons were blues. For the most part blue players would stick together if PK's were around. That's not really the case in a game like Darkfall because everybody just attacks everybody else for the most part.
However, while I like the IDEA of a jail system, I'm not sure it's a great thing to put in a game. I love the sound of it, and how deliciously organic and sandbox it is, but I just don't know how I feel about a mechanic that stops you from playing the game. It's a game, and it's meant to be played. I don't think it would be all that difficult to deter mindless killing without something that stops you from playing, considering UO was pretty close and they didn't even really do that much. A big thing is not letting murderers allowed in towns, and possibly other restrictions regarding player-run merchants or quests (if the game has any).
Pretty much my contention, as well. UO and EVE allow the Good Guys, the Bad Guys, and the undeniably Ugly places to flourish. Both games allow players to become complete outcasts if they want, although UO's flaw early on was in making that the most profitable path in the entire game. As long as the path is on par with other paths, you'll naturally curb PKing as the ones that will choose it are the ones that prefer that particular playstyle.
The problem with this thread is that it focuses on an unknown, and that unknown is the appropriate threshold for number and frequency of PKing in the game world. The variable that fluctuates the most is the community's acceptance level of that playstyle which, as we have already seen from AC, WOW and several other MMOs, varies from server to server as each one develops its own identity and its own community.
One of the many neat PVP-related features of UO was Buccaneer's Den. It was a town/island without NPC guards that provided a place for the PKs to congregate, still access a bank, and have some basic NPCs they can interact with. More importantly, it gave a place where the PK community could interact on relatively neutral ground.
I'm completely in favor of mechanics that channel a playstyle rather than create abrupt obstacles to it based on arbitrary impositions.
The PK play style should always be "how long can I last". Not pvp in general, but those who like playing in the shadows deserve immersion as much as anyone else. That is the best form of mechanics that channel a playstyle, ones that are immersion based.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The PK play style should always be "how long can I last". Not pvp in general, but those who like playing in the shadows deserve immersion as much as anyone else. That is the best form of mechanics that channel a playstyle, ones that are immersion based.
"So I wanted to make my getaway, I slipped into the shadow--but there were already 13 Ninjas and 6 Bounty Hunters in there. And they were not glad to see me."
If only most of the mechanics weren't bent on cheating an escape through magic invisibility, or some such.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The PK play style should always be "how long can I last". Not pvp in general, but those who like playing in the shadows deserve immersion as much as anyone else. That is the best form of mechanics that channel a playstyle, ones that are immersion based.
"So I wanted to make my getaway, I slipped into the shadow--but there were already 13 Ninjas and 6 Bounty Hunters in there. And they were not glad to see me."
If only most of the mechanics weren't bent on cheating an escape through magic invisibility, or some such.
I said immersion based mechanics work. It's easier to dismiss, even easier now that we know developers are as big of screw-ups as any other profession, but I said immersion based mechanics, not addiction based.
If you want to ring bells and have the players salivate, then don't expect them to do anything else. There aren't 13 ninjas and 6 bounty hunters waiting for you because you're so fucking good. They're there salivating.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Comments
Actually, the OP not only implies punishment but specifically states it is to deter random killings and intended as an "anti-griefing tool"
Look, it's great that you want to sell ArcheAge and all. There's a couple others here that are as giddy for it as you are. Again, ArcheAge's design is intended as gameplay for the PVPers, not as punishment for being a PVPer. It is a very different approach to the content than what is being talked about here.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agreed. The audience the content is geared toward is the key factor here.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Exactly. I am not going to play ArcheAge because it is so pvp focus. Anti-griefing tool is not necessarily in games where griefing (in this case, PK griefing) is not possible.
In fact, why eliminate have those tools? People who like no griefing go play pve games, with no ffa ow pvp. Those who like griefing one another go to play an ffa ow pvp game with no prison.
Problem solved.
First, my interpretation of "to deter random killings" and "anti-griefing tool" does not imply "punishment", and does imply a mechanic which is an integral part of the game's design...
It is completely rediculous to even think making a game with the intent of punishing your players. Only players think like that "Ohh we want that group punished, we want a whip with electrodes, we want the player to be electrocuted when they die"...
Games are not made like that, games are made with the intent to provide Fun for all.
Anyone who has played OW FFA games knows that these games can go south pretty quickly and many do not see them as fun. It is why it is important to have a good balance that deters (not eliminates) griefing and random killings. This can be accomplished by a mechanic that translates in some form in to the gameplay itself.
Second, I am not trying to convince people who are not interested in FFA PvP games to play them. By the same token, I do not think anyone not interested by OW FFA PvP games has any business sharing their opinion or commenting in this thread, unless they intend on giving it a try, but anyways.
As someone who prefers OW FFA PvP MMOs I am participating in the discussion and bringing in my view, I think it is a nice topic and I think we need more discussions like that within the community to at least entertain the idea of OW FFA PvP and how it can be fun for all.
Third, I bring up Arch Age because it is an Example which directly answers The Topic. It is a living example in front of our eyes...I could have used EVE online's Criminal System or UO's..but AA actually implements the mechanic that is the topic of the discussion and it is most relevant. Anyone ignoring this must really be narrow-minded.
And my point is that the only way to implement a Prison feature in a Game is to make it part of the gameplay. Otherwise the discussion is a waste of time and everything everyone says is pretty much Moot.
Who in their right mind makes a game with OW FFA PvP and then deploy resources to manage imprisonment of player that fight within that system as a form of punishment? it is ludicrous, and so is any discussion upon that line.
So please do not try to dismiss the points I am trying to make by attempting to categorize me like some AA fan Boi trying to promote a particular game.
I never played AA, for all I know it could turn out to be a Korean Grind Fest, full or RMTers...it will go in the Garbage Can quite fast like some others...trust me.
Nevertheless, it is worthy of mention since it has a working system of Imprisonment which, at least based on accounts of other players, works well and answers much and directly any questions/concerns of this discussion.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
You obviously don't understand the internet very well.
Make a thread ranting about lack of death penalty ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about modern MMO is good ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
Make a thread about instances is good (or bad .. does not matter) ... all the opposition shows up and flame.
...
I think you get the idea.
Making a thread about ow ffa pvp .. the LAST thing you should expect is those who dislike ow ffa pvp would restrain from showing up and air their side of the story.
Hahaha, yes, you are right, and I am aware of it, since 10-14 years or so by now
That is why I just gave my thinking. I do not have the expectation that it is going to be like that however. :P
One can still hope though O.o
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
From my observations, the law of the internet (if you post, your opposition will show up and flame) is pretty rigid. There is no hope.
On the other hand, if it is constructive, I think it is fine for even those who oppose the ideas to share their view.
How goes that saying again?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
but the "law of the internet" may not have been taken under account... XD
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I agree whole heartedly that the community should be given power to defend themselves.
How is it Done on Wushu?
I want to try out that game.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Thanks you have answered with exactly what I'm thinking. Much of the questioning seems to be coming from a place of lack of understanding of FFA PvP games. I'm coming from the view of a person who was a random killer and now interested in a more balanced world building experience.
The goal was to give players the options and freedom of FFA PvP and mentioned this one tool as a helper to prevent it from becoming Lords of the Flies. Of course those who don't even want or understand the plights of FFA PvP are not going to get it. I don't mind the discussion input but if it harps on telling what we're thinking the idea is it seems weird and pointless if we state it otherwise.
I want random killers to be hard but more rare player choice, but a choice. I want danger to be had by the risk not only for the innocent being killed but killer being captured and held. There are also other methods to go along with this as well. It's not meant to be overly harsh. It's meant to provide short term relief from criminals. Even if the player is locked up for hours that's a play session for many people. Not to mention there would be other indirect deterrents.
In my experience a lot of the non-pvp crowd don't have a side of the story. The vast majority of the mmo market today came about AFTER the watering down of the genre with games like WoW and haven't given any game with ow pvp a proper chance. As far as I'm concerned the few that have done it reasonably well are UO, EvE and Shadowbane... mostly the first 2. The only one that's still around and resembles its original form in some way is EvE, and that has enough barriers to entry that it's going to screen a lot of people out aside from the ow pvp.
Basically I'm not really interested in the opinion of somebody who hasn't really given that genre a chance. Seems like a lot of people just make the rule for themselves that they won't play an ow pvp game, and that's that. Well to me ow pvp games are no different than the niche markets of any other kind of entertainment. It's like somebody who listens to shitty top 40 radio music saying they don't like classical because they got a little taste of it growing up and decided it was too "boring". When in reality, they haven't put in the time/emotional investment to reap the rewards.
I'm on board with the goal: make PKing a viable option, but it should be a somewhat difficult path. You don't want the DEFAULT to be just attack everybody for no apparent reason. I loved the fact that in UO you had actual recognizable names of players/clans that were... bad guys essentially. You had actual villains in the game. And the reason you could have villains is because the vast majority of the people you'd run into in dungeons were blues. For the most part blue players would stick together if PK's were around. That's not really the case in a game like Darkfall because everybody just attacks everybody else for the most part.
However, while I like the IDEA of a jail system, I'm not sure it's a great thing to put in a game. I love the sound of it, and how deliciously organic and sandbox it is, but I just don't know how I feel about a mechanic that stops you from playing the game. It's a game, and it's meant to be played. I don't think it would be all that difficult to deter mindless killing without something that stops you from playing, considering UO was pretty close and they didn't even really do that much. A big thing is not letting murderers allowed in towns, and possibly other restrictions regarding player-run merchants or quests (if the game has any).
Another possibility (or complementary) would be to make gameplay available inside the prison. People could hang around, train skills, practice PvP, do some crafting.
Of course it shouldn't be so attractive, that ppl would prefer to go to jail.
The separate characters thing makes jail time a little better I guess, but then again is it even a punishment at that point? I like gameplay changes like notoriety. Stuff that sticks with you and can't be ignored like jail time.
I was thinking about a system where the more you kill players, the harder the server makes the world for you. It involved a whole system of gods and demons that inhabited the world, and their avatars and priests contributing, but the gist of it was that as the player became more notorious, the more the game antagonistic towards that player.
The goal wouldn't be to get them out of the game or to punish them, but rather move them away from player killing for no reason. It would have to be balanced in such a way that they could work or pay off their debt, perhaps by paying the players they killed or something, so that there would be some seemingly random player killing, but it wouldn't be to the extent that it exists in games like War Z. Players have to be able to build things for the world to be meaningful.
I'm not against the idea of a jail, but I don't think it should be run or managed by players at all. Players are the last people you'd want running something like that. Let the system manage it. Shadow agents of the emperor or something are constantly watching everyone and step in when people get out of hand. I don't know, I just wouldn't leave it up to the players. Even requiring that the "red" people be killed by players before going to jail might be too much to expect. You probably couldn't have rewards for killing "red" players, because it would get exploited, and without rewards they aren't going to risk getting killed just to send the "red" players to jail. So, automation is the way to go.
My opinion of course.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Pretty much my contention, as well. UO and EVE allow the Good Guys, the Bad Guys, and the undeniably Ugly places to flourish. Both games allow players to become complete outcasts if they want, although UO's flaw early on was in making that the most profitable path in the entire game. As long as the path is on par with other paths, you'll naturally curb PKing as the ones that will choose it are the ones that prefer that particular playstyle.
The problem with this thread is that it focuses on an unknown, and that unknown is the appropriate threshold for number and frequency of PKing in the game world. The variable that fluctuates the most is the community's acceptance level of that playstyle which, as we have already seen from AC, WOW and several other MMOs, varies from server to server as each one develops its own identity and its own community.
One of the many neat PVP-related features of UO was Buccaneer's Den. It was a town/island without NPC guards that provided a place for the PKs to congregate, still access a bank, and have some basic NPCs they can interact with. More importantly, it gave a place where the PK community could interact on relatively neutral ground.
I'm completely in favor of mechanics that channel a playstyle rather than create abrupt obstacles to it based on arbitrary impositions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The point is that whether it is constructive or not is moot. Flames will always be there.
Now you can hope for some constructive discussions. It is not a given, but not an impossibility either.
What is a "proper" chance? I played UO beta a while and hated PK .. so i quit. Is that a "proper" or an "improper" chance?
And it is moot anyway. If the audience decide not to give it a chance, proper or not, fair or not, no sane devs is going to try to go against the demand.
Personally i have tried enough, and like it or not, ow ffa pvp (in a pve game, i do play PS2 from time to time) has no chance from me. I doubt you will miss me anyway.
All this has been answered a couple of pages back, I posted a couple of Links of a Developed, implemented and working in Production Imprisonment system in Arch Age. Along with player feedback. It has been received in quite a positive way.
Vermillon agreed
Loktofeit, yes in principle I agree with you as well. What is missing is the giving the choice to players to choose to be the Good the Bad and the Ugly. Most MMO's that went down the other path, simply striped that choice from the player.
I surmize because, Devs cannot control what Evil Players may choose to do, so their solution was simply to move all of the players to the "good" side, and control the Evil by having it being represented by NPC's, and shove the "Hero" notion down our throats.
And now we are a t a point where the playerbase has changed, any old schoolers excepted, the majority of the players just do not have the notion of Good vs Evil anymore within the context of PvP.
Yet, we are again at a turning point, and Sandbox is making a come back.
So I think the imprisonment mechanic that is part of gameplay in addition to the existing known mechanisms, is pretty much a requirement to balance a OW FFA game today, as it also serves to educate the newer players about the notion of consequence and accountability of the choice to be "evil" and perfoming "evil" actions.
It is like, "what??? I killed a couple of guys for fun, why am I considered a criminal now? I did not know this was a "bad" thing, it is FFA PvP!!"...
EVE and UO never had it but both games are played by mainly old schoolers,who do Educate new players about it.. so it still works there without imprisonment.
Yet, any new game, will have to have a couple extra measures in place if it is to attract and keep new players in it. Something that I beleive Darkfall failed miserbly to do. Imprisonment mechanic is one of the Options which can work towards that end... because, in reality, I also think many here, understand how exciting and vibrant and ALIVE an OW FFA PvP MMO can be when it is properly balanced...and I so much long for one...and would actually like to see newer players introduce themselves to one as well first hand...
I try to explain the feeling of it in many guild discussions in TS/Vent but it simply does not register...newer MMO players simply have no frame of reference... even he notion of the community self policing itself is really not clear to many...because there is no notion of good vs evil...
In the heads of many, everyone is still "Good" and if the game allows FFA PvP it is ok to just kill anyone not part of one's group directly...everyone perceives it ok to have fun randomly killing newbies and laugh about it.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
The PK play style should always be "how long can I last". Not pvp in general, but those who like playing in the shadows deserve immersion as much as anyone else. That is the best form of mechanics that channel a playstyle, ones that are immersion based.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"So I wanted to make my getaway, I slipped into the shadow--but there were already 13 Ninjas and 6 Bounty Hunters in there. And they were not glad to see me."
If only most of the mechanics weren't bent on cheating an escape through magic invisibility, or some such.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I said immersion based mechanics work. It's easier to dismiss, even easier now that we know developers are as big of screw-ups as any other profession, but I said immersion based mechanics, not addiction based.
If you want to ring bells and have the players salivate, then don't expect them to do anything else. There aren't 13 ninjas and 6 bounty hunters waiting for you because you're so fucking good. They're there salivating.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"