Originally posted by Bidwood Separate servers is not the answer. It is part of the crap that has been going on for the last decade that needs to change.
The separate servers concept is like saying someone has an infected wound on their leg. Therefore we should cut the leg off. Surely we have advanced far enough that we can treat the infection (briefing) without losing the limb (open PVP).
The problem is, the infection keeps coming back...over...and over...and over....no matter how many times you treat it.
The games don't need to change, the players do.
Edit : Think of it like this...
In football (soccer) there are hooligans that ruin games for everyone, fans and players alike, and the governing bodies think fining the football team is the solution. Until everyone, the clubs, the players, the fans...and eventually the hooligans themselves...say enough is enough, it will continue.
Originally posted by Bidwood Separate servers is not the answer. It is part of the crap that has been going on for the last decade that needs to change.
The separate servers concept is like saying someone has an infected wound on their leg. Therefore we should cut the leg off. Surely we have advanced far enough that we can treat the infection (briefing) without losing the limb (open PVP).
So your solution is not to compromise by having separate PvE and PvP venues but instead to force everyone to do PvP? Unfortunately for you, PvE without PvP is a fixed part of the genre now and there are too many players who casually play only for the PvE, or who like PvP but in controlled battlegrounds so they don't get looted of their valuables. Yes, PvP does add an element of realism, but games are about escape. And while some people choose to escape by battling other players or even by ganking lowbies, others choose to do so by completing quests, killing mobs, not other players, etc. What you are suggesting is not a maturing of the genre but instead a reactionary countermeasure to the days back when only hardcores played MMO's. It just won't happen, at least with an AAA title like EQN. Future games offered by niche companies like CCP are the best that you can hope for.
Originally posted by Bidwood Separate servers is not the answer. It is part of the crap that has been going on for the last decade that needs to change.
The separate servers concept is like saying someone has an infected wound on their leg. Therefore we should cut the leg off. Surely we have advanced far enough that we can treat the infection (briefing) without losing the limb (open PVP).
I agree with that reasoning.
With Karma, it's possible to have factions in the game that players can work their way into through karma and in-game actions. And with those factions, that players choose to join by their actions, the game can open up PvP. While leaving players who choose not to, by simply not taking those actions and choose the other choice instead, or simply avoiding it entirely for other options of play, leaving them out of PvP.
Example might be in that Orc/Farmer scenario the Devs gave. Orcs attacking the Farmer, you can help either or move on. Your choice. Helping the farmer might mean nothing, while helping the Orcs kill the farmer might give karma towards Orc Faction. Enough of this faction karma, and the character might become a part of that faction and open up PvP towards enemies of the Orcs.
And furthermore, performing actions that hurt karma to the Orc Faction might remove points toward it, thus requiring a consistent effort to be a part of that Orc Faction (and the PvP related to it).
But we don't know yet. Just sayin' that there's possibilities here for a "worldly" PVP system that players don't have to join.
Originally posted by Bidwood Separate servers is not the answer. It is part of the crap that has been going on for the last decade that needs to change.The separate servers concept is like saying someone has an infected wound on their leg. Therefore we should cut the leg off. Surely we have advanced far enough that we can treat the infection (briefing) without losing the limb (open PVP).
There is no "solution" that involves people who aren't interested in OW/FFA PvP playing a game with OW/FFA PvP. Every solution such as Karma, player jails, or "going red" is for people who are actually interested in OW PvP. The problem is that there are people who aren't interested in OW PvP, and there are more of them. It doesn't matter what convoluted, rule heavy system you come up with, they are not interested in OW PvP.
The solution for developers, since the people who aren't interested in OW PvP are in the majority is to either create a game that doesn't have it, or to have different servers with different rule sets. It's that, or indie games. Take your pick.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Bidwood Separate servers is not the answer. It is part of the crap that has been going on for the last decade that needs to change.
The separate servers concept is like saying someone has an infected wound on their leg. Therefore we should cut the leg off. Surely we have advanced far enough that we can treat the infection (briefing) without losing the limb (open PVP).
They will be building multiple servers anyway to handle the load. So they may as well make some PVE for solo, easy, hardcore and roleplaying. Also how about some PVP servers to treat different concepts too, Faction, Guild, Open World, and worst of all Free For All. That way everyone can play in the sandbox that they prefer. So dude get over yourself. They have already announced that they are making this game fun for everyone. Your single server free for all killing fest won't be fun for all the people you intend to kill.
Honestly don't think this will be an issue because they will have PVE and PVP servers to seperate the two. I can't see Sony forcing PVP on anyone. I did love WOW at launch for it's WPVP but we all know how that turned out.
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
So every decision you make is going to be recorded by the servers and there will essentially be a 'faction rating' for each NPC depending on how they feel about you.
This is basically karma.
We all know I believe there's going to be a shocking PVP reveal, but I don't want it to be a FFA bloodbath. I really want them to make use of that data and put some serious risk into being a murderer. What if the whole world turns against you and hunts you for bounty and stuff?
If you've ever read any of my posts on PvP, you'll know I think you're completely wrong about EQ:N including any kind of PvP. That's your opinion, and mine is different. Let's discuss a possible Karma system, then.
EQ:N might have the ability to include data about every action taken by a character in-game. Okay. I can buy that, even thought it is a lot of data to store about every character. Not only does the raw action need to be captured, that action needs to be registered against one or more specific faction.
First question: Does the system record the action 'Bidwood kills Mendel' as a faction hit against Bidwood's Mendel faction, or Mendel's guild's faction, or Mendel's friends list members' factions, or against Mendel's in-game race's faction, or a generic PK faction?
Second question: Bidwood has murdered Mendel 315,287 times today. Bidwood's faction (whichever one it is) is bottomed out. Why does Bidwood care about a faction in-game? How will this faction deter Bidwood from repeating the undesired action? What consequence do you see for Bidwood? How long will it last?
Third question: Bidwood has earned a consequence. What prevents Bidwood from swapping to his alt Bidwood2 and continuing the disruptive behavior? What prevents Bidwood from logging out of his BidwoodPrime account and looging into the game with BidwoodSecundus and continuing with more disruptive behavior?
My point here is that there isn't a meaningful in-game consequence that players can't ignore. Put them in jail? Turn on a PK flag? Anything in-game can (and will be) ignored. A repercussion can only be a repercussion if it means something to the offending party, and makes future incidents less likely.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by Bidwood I see many of you aren't ready for the discussion about how to limit griefing. Let's revisit this after the PVP reveal.
It's more like you're to full of yourself to compromise with differential rule sets applying to different servers. The pvp servers could very well have some sort of karma system but the second you said that that isn't good enough, you closed your mind to any and all discussion over what other possible ways could limit griefing in ow pvp.
I'd like to chime in and say for all of Age of Wushu's failing it had some splendid systems. One of which was how they handled open world pvp.
First off if you killed someone you would acquire murderer points. When you died you would go to jail for an amount time up to 24 real time hours. There you would have to pvp with other prisoners, play a board game, or sit in chat. Repeated offenders would be locked up longer in jail and scheduled for a public beheading that all can attend to name and shame the murderer. After the beheading the accused is stripped of gear and walks around with 50% stats for what I believe was 24 hours.
Then there was a bounty system that encouraged licensed bounty hunters or guilds to hunt griefers for in game money rewards. This acted as a money dump, which also helped form active player patrols to keep criminals at bay without relying on the "good nature" of the players to just step up and help someone. It's a lot easier for someone to say "hey I'm going to help that guy because I can get 200 gold from it" than just hoping goodwill will shine through.
Lastly were real guild consequences. In Age of wushu not only could you siege land from other guilds, but you could shut them down almost entirely economically. By sabotaging trade routes and killing guild vendors in the market you could in effect make it so the guild can not afford the land they built on, and to an even more devastating effect keep up internal guild cost. Without paying the guild upkeep cost you guild would cease to exist. Say goodbye to you 100+ guild if you griefed an alliance and had them concentrate their efforts in completely wiping you out in land and name.
Combine these systems with proper pvp hots spots (world wide dueling arenas, public death match arena, sieges, faction wars, battle grounds, wulin weekly server wide tourneys, faction patrol etc), a guild blood feud system that circumvented pvp restrictions on guild vs guild warfare, and you have a pvp system that is very much in control.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
Originally posted by Bidwood I see many of you aren't ready for the discussion about how to limit griefing. Let's revisit this after the PVP reveal.
I don't know if you read my post or not. I offered up something of a possibility. But I n-e-v-e-r get a response to any of my posts of such nature. And I'm not surprised that you aren't getting more than a few good efforts here either.
Mostly, it seems, gamers just can't understand anything besides what they've seen and experienced. Which is sort of useless when talking about a game that's trying to be a different experience.
I'd like to chime in and say for all of Age of Wushu's failing it had some splendid systems. One of which was how they handled open world pvp.
First off if you killed someone you would acquire murderer points. When you died you would go to jail for an amount time up to 24 real time hours. There you would have to pvp with other prisoners, play a board game, or sit in chat. Repeated offenders would be locked up longer in jail and scheduled for a public beheading that all can attend to name and shame the murderer. After the beheading the accused is stripped of gear and walks around with 50% stats for what I believe was 24 hours.
Then there was a bounty system that encouraged licensed bounty hunters or guilds to hunt griefers for in game money rewards. This acted as a money dump, which also helped form active player patrols to keep criminals at bay without relying on the "good nature" of the players to just step up and help someone. It's a lot easier for someone to say "hey I'm going to help that guy because I can get 200 gold from it" than just hoping goodwill will shine through.
Lastly were real guild consequences. In Age of wushu not only could you siege land from other guilds, but you could shut them down almost entirely economically. By sabotaging trade routes and killing guild vendors in the market you could in effect make it so the guild can not afford the land they built on, and to an even more devastating effect keep up internal guild cost. Without paying the guild upkeep cost you guild would cease to exist. Say goodbye to you 100+ guild if you griefed an alliance and had them concentrate their efforts in completely wiping you out in land and name.
Combine these systems with proper pvp hots spots (world wide dueling arenas, public death match arena, sieges, faction wars, battle grounds, wulin weekly server wide tourneys, faction patrol etc), a guild blood feud system that circumvented pvp restrictions on guild vs guild warfare, and you have a pvp system that is very much in control.
That's kind of interesting, and I guess if you were beheaded you would walk around with 50% less ability for a while, heh.
But that's not a new system, although it is expanded. The problem is that it does nothing to limit wide open PKing and rampant ganking. It's a "punishment" that's only effective for a very limited time period.
But at least you are offering something to the discussion. And I do like the idea of imprisonment (play another character for a while) as a roleplay experience, and based on factions and karma or some deeper system.
Originally posted by Bidwood I see many of you aren't ready for the discussion about how to limit griefing. Let's revisit this after the PVP reveal.
I don't know if you read my post or not. I offered up something of a possibility. But I n-e-v-e-r get a response to any of my posts of such nature. And I'm not surprised that you aren't getting more than a few good efforts here either.
Mostly, it seems, gamers just can't understand anything besides what they've seen and experienced. Which is sort of useless when talking about a game that's trying to be a different experience.
Where did I ignore you before? If it was one of my 40+ page threads, give me a break.
Yep FFA PVP is fine but only as long as its OPTIONAL. Thats why a lot of games tend to have specific PVP Servers to play on that are always open FFA but also PVE Servers where the PVP is Optional. Thats the way it should be and how even SOE did it with the original EQ. I enjoy PVP but only when I choose to take part in it, not when I am FORCED to at all times.
Originally posted by Bidwood I see many of you aren't ready for the discussion about how to limit griefing. Let's revisit this after the PVP reveal.
I don't know if you read my post or not. I offered up something of a possibility. But I n-e-v-e-r get a response to any of my posts of such nature. And I'm not surprised that you aren't getting more than a few good efforts here either.
Mostly, it seems, gamers just can't understand anything besides what they've seen and experienced. Which is sort of useless when talking about a game that's trying to be a different experience.
Where did I ignore you before? If it was one of my 40+ page threads, give me a break.
I wasn't blaming you. Just saying how these things go.
Originally posted by kyssari Yep FFA PVP is fine but only as long as its OPTIONAL. Thats why a lot of games tend to have specific PVP Servers to play on that are always open FFA but also PVE Servers where the PVP is Optional. Thats the way it should be and how even SOE did it with the original EQ. I enjoy PVP but only when I choose to take part in it, not when I am FORCED to at all times.
But a game experience can be better overall, for everyone, if LIMITED PvP can be included, optionally, in a more important and "worldly" manner to the lore and player acted running history. Something with meaning. More than just instanced, unrelated PvP in a sport like manner.
No you don't get to play another character for awhile when imprisoned. if you log out of the character your timer stops. you have to wait every second of every hours there just like all the other prisoners unless you never decide to play that character again.
Server wide price on your head or guild flat lining your economy/guild disband seems harsh enough to me . Having server wide announcements of when a murder(by name) enters a zone and what they have as a bounty can make finding groups as a criminal tense to say the least. Whens the last time you pked someone and then had the other guild retaliate by destroying your markets or sieging your lands so they don't turn a profit. Then you and your guild have to find a way to make money outside of the player market, find out who to trim from the roster to cut guild cost. and if the castle they spent months getting together making is worth keeping anymore. Now your guild has to heavily guard trade routes and farm non stop to keep up with the escalating cost of maintaining a guild or fade into obscurity. All because you ganked that guy for his 5 ore and then decided to camp him.
Real consequences with real punishments. I found it worked quite well in wushu. They had good rules for "legal" pvp and ways for guilds to really have at it using blood feud type mechanics. If you wanted to be a douche they didn't limit the player from doing as such but it has real consequences. It wasn't just some asshat loling on global about camping that level 1 over and over then grouping with his friends. No it was you lol about that guy and his guild set a bounty up for you. Good luck dungeoning tonight. You lol on about camping someone now your guilds under siege and you can't set up a shop for damn near 16 hours because that enemy guild is patrolling every market mowing your afk shops down. Now those trade route contracts you take out for easy escort gold are being vandalized. You don't get it easy for being bad.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
No you don't get to play another character for awhile when imprisoned. if you log out of the character your timer stops. you have to wait every second of every hours there just like all the other prisoners unless you never decide to play that character again.
Server wide price on your head or guild flat lining your economy/guild disband seems harsh enough to me . Having server wide announcements of when a murder(by name) enters a zone and what they have as a bounty can make finding groups as a criminal tense to say the least. Whens the last time you pked someone and then had the other guild retaliate by destroying your markets or sieging your lands so they don't turn a profit. Then you and your guild have to find a way to make money outside of the player market, find out who to trim from the roster to cut guild cost. and if the castle they spent months getting together making is worth keeping anymore. Now your guild has to heavily guard trade routes and farm non stop to keep up with the escalating cost of maintaining a guild or fade into obscurity. All because you ganked that guy for his 5 ore and then decided to camp him.
Real consequences with real punishments. I found it worked quite well in wushu. They had good rules for "legal" pvp and ways for guilds to really have at it using blood feud type mechanics. If you wanted to be a douche they didn't limit the player from doing as such but it has real consequences. It wasn't just some asshat loling on global about camping that level 1 over and over then grouping with his friends. No it was you lol about that guy and his guild set a bounty up for you. Good luck dungeoning tonight. You lol on about camping someone now your guilds under siege and you can't set up a shop for damn near 16 hours because that enemy guild is patrolling every market mowing your afk shops down. Now those trade route contracts you take out for easy escort gold are being vandalized. You don't get it easy for being bad.
I see. That does offer quite a bit, doesn't it. Well worth consideration for this game.
Question for you. You mentioned they had ways to allow safe PvP. Did it, or do you think, that maybe a karma system could be used as an entrance into such safe PvP? (I'm referring to my post earlier in this thread.) In other words, karma as an entrance system to a faction, where PvP is set up against one or more other factions. The gods come to mind here, but it wouldn't have to be limited to just them when a game also has thieves, etc.
Originally posted by kyssari Yep FFA PVP is fine but only as long as its OPTIONAL. Thats why a lot of games tend to have specific PVP Servers to play on that are always open FFA but also PVE Servers where the PVP is Optional. Thats the way it should be and how even SOE did it with the original EQ. I enjoy PVP but only when I choose to take part in it, not when I am FORCED to at all times.
But a game experience can be better overall, for everyone, if LIMITED PvP can be included, optionally, in a more important and "worldly" manner to the lore and player acted running history. Something with meaning. More than just instanced, unrelated PvP in a sport like manner.
Yeah that would be pretty sweet and I do agree. I always did find instanced PVP far more boring and it got old extremely fast. Either way I am all for any kind of PVP system as long as we both stated its optional and not forced on you as it is in games like Allods Online or on WoWs PVP Servers and the like. WoWs system in general was ok with me because I could play on a PVE server and then PVP only when I chose to wether it was in BGs or in the open world. Having more PVP themed events and such in the open world that are optional would be pretty sweet. With the destructible environments and how big siege warfare is getting in MMOs these days I could see some kind of siege type PVP making it in but who knows, so far they are really hush hush on the whole PVP thing so only time will tell.
No you don't get to play another character for awhile when imprisoned. if you log out of the character your timer stops. you have to wait every second of every hours there just like all the other prisoners unless you never decide to play that character again.
Server wide price on your head or guild flat lining your economy/guild disband seems harsh enough to me . Having server wide announcements of when a murder(by name) enters a zone and what they have as a bounty can make finding groups as a criminal tense to say the least. Whens the last time you pked someone and then had the other guild retaliate by destroying your markets or sieging your lands so they don't turn a profit. Then you and your guild have to find a way to make money outside of the player market, find out who to trim from the roster to cut guild cost. and if the castle they spent months getting together making is worth keeping anymore. Now your guild has to heavily guard trade routes and farm non stop to keep up with the escalating cost of maintaining a guild or fade into obscurity. All because you ganked that guy for his 5 ore and then decided to camp him.
Real consequences with real punishments. I found it worked quite well in wushu. They had good rules for "legal" pvp and ways for guilds to really have at it using blood feud type mechanics. If you wanted to be a douche they didn't limit the player from doing as such but it has real consequences. It wasn't just some asshat loling on global about camping that level 1 over and over then grouping with his friends. No it was you lol about that guy and his guild set a bounty up for you. Good luck dungeoning tonight. You lol on about camping someone now your guilds under siege and you can't set up a shop for damn near 16 hours because that enemy guild is patrolling every market mowing your afk shops down. Now those trade route contracts you take out for easy escort gold are being vandalized. You don't get it easy for being bad.
I see. That does offer quite a bit, doesn't it. Well worth consideration for this game.
Question for you. You mentioned they had ways to allow safe PvP. Did it, or do you think, that maybe a karma system could be used as an entrance into such safe PvP? (I'm referring to my post earlier in this thread.) In other words, karma as an entrance system to a faction, where PvP is set up against one or more other factions. The gods come to mind here, but it wouldn't have to be limited to just them when a game also has thieves, etc.
I think there's more then enough room for a faction system to be integrated in a karma system. In fact I would think it would almost have to be. A faction after all is a body of like minded individuals and ideals not just a big group of people to party with. Heroes and villains should be rewarded with a place that they can truly call home. Whether its a city guard outpost, a den of thieves in the city or a cave hide away for only blood thirsty murderers.
Factions are a great way to get a player to play their "part" or reevaluate the person they are really becoming. For instance in wushu I was a robber. People would run their fat carts through town i would follow them and out numbered or not I would break and steal what I could. The rewards were mostly garbage but whether it was me or a band of thieves I had an extremely fun time doing it. This lead me to an evil life style that suited my school and had me evade most punishment from them. I would still have some bounties placed on me and guild could harass my shop but it wasn't so bad. I got away from most of the severe punishments because cart robbery was somewhat "legal" pvp. I wasn't griefing I was simply providing danger for the guild escorts getting rich off their easy pony jobs.
I later turned a new leaf and got more involved in the week long wulin tournaments. My school was neutral/evil so I was still within the guide lines of my school (faction) and still followed their guidelines.This was a great turning point for me going from stalking robber to still not so pleasant death match tourney goer. The change from someone who hails from a good school partaking in evil aligned actions is much more severe but appropriate. Things like this really make your character development feel alive and should be hand and hand with the karma system. Many games have tried to set up the foundation for something like this but i can only hope EQ next takes the next step and really pushed this to the forefront. Much like how our choices make who we are in life.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
Originally posted by Kyleran No need, because I don't think SOE has the stones to deliver non-consensual PVP.
But it's totally fine to deliver (inflict) cartoon graphics and 1 hotbar "action" combat,no roles,everyone is a DPS dodge class.
For me SOE have totally sold out to the casual crowd and don't give a shit about the players that stuck with thier previous titles. Just look how easy eq1 & eq2 are now since they first launched,it gives a very overpowering indication to how casual EQN will be.
Originally posted by Kyleran No need, because I don't think SOE has the stones to deliver non-consensual PVP.
But it's totally fine to deliver (inflict) cartoon graphics and 1 hotbar "action" combat,no roles,everyone is a DPS dodge class.
For me SOE have totally sold out to the casual crowd and don't give a shit about the players that stuck with thier previous titles. Just look how easy eq1 & eq2 are now since they first launched,it gives a very overpowering indication to how casual EQN will be.
Wait, lets get the facts straight here.
EQ1 & 2 were never hard. They were tedious. Those are not the same thing!
Now, if you want a tedious game, then that is fine, but say that!
Why is the only viable and fair solution presented always rejected by the PVP crowd. You can have all the PVP you want as long as it is on a seperate server. Everyone wins that way. Please explain to me why that solution can't work. A don't use a lame excuse like the developers will be lazy and not make a compelling PVP solution on a seperate PVP server as that is a different issue.
Originally posted by Kyllien Why is the only vialble fair solution presented always rejected by the PVP crowd. You can have all the PVP you want as long as it is on a seperate server. Everyone wins that way. Please explain to me why that solution can't work. A don't use a lame excuse like the developers will be lazy and not make a compelling PVP solution on a seperate PVP server as that is a different issue.
Because PvP players are the same genus as griefers. They are not the same species but they both eat the same prey animals, and they do not understand die back. They look for larger herds to feed upon, there need be no other reason.
Comments
The problem is, the infection keeps coming back...over...and over...and over....no matter how many times you treat it.
The games don't need to change, the players do.
Edit : Think of it like this...
In football (soccer) there are hooligans that ruin games for everyone, fans and players alike, and the governing bodies think fining the football team is the solution. Until everyone, the clubs, the players, the fans...and eventually the hooligans themselves...say enough is enough, it will continue.
So your solution is not to compromise by having separate PvE and PvP venues but instead to force everyone to do PvP? Unfortunately for you, PvE without PvP is a fixed part of the genre now and there are too many players who casually play only for the PvE, or who like PvP but in controlled battlegrounds so they don't get looted of their valuables. Yes, PvP does add an element of realism, but games are about escape. And while some people choose to escape by battling other players or even by ganking lowbies, others choose to do so by completing quests, killing mobs, not other players, etc. What you are suggesting is not a maturing of the genre but instead a reactionary countermeasure to the days back when only hardcores played MMO's. It just won't happen, at least with an AAA title like EQN. Future games offered by niche companies like CCP are the best that you can hope for.
I agree with that reasoning.
With Karma, it's possible to have factions in the game that players can work their way into through karma and in-game actions. And with those factions, that players choose to join by their actions, the game can open up PvP. While leaving players who choose not to, by simply not taking those actions and choose the other choice instead, or simply avoiding it entirely for other options of play, leaving them out of PvP.
Example might be in that Orc/Farmer scenario the Devs gave. Orcs attacking the Farmer, you can help either or move on. Your choice. Helping the farmer might mean nothing, while helping the Orcs kill the farmer might give karma towards Orc Faction. Enough of this faction karma, and the character might become a part of that faction and open up PvP towards enemies of the Orcs.
And furthermore, performing actions that hurt karma to the Orc Faction might remove points toward it, thus requiring a consistent effort to be a part of that Orc Faction (and the PvP related to it).
But we don't know yet. Just sayin' that there's possibilities here for a "worldly" PVP system that players don't have to join.
Once upon a time....
There is no "solution" that involves people who aren't interested in OW/FFA PvP playing a game with OW/FFA PvP. Every solution such as Karma, player jails, or "going red" is for people who are actually interested in OW PvP. The problem is that there are people who aren't interested in OW PvP, and there are more of them. It doesn't matter what convoluted, rule heavy system you come up with, they are not interested in OW PvP.
The solution for developers, since the people who aren't interested in OW PvP are in the majority is to either create a game that doesn't have it, or to have different servers with different rule sets. It's that, or indie games. Take your pick.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They will be building multiple servers anyway to handle the load. So they may as well make some PVE for solo, easy, hardcore and roleplaying. Also how about some PVP servers to treat different concepts too, Faction, Guild, Open World, and worst of all Free For All. That way everyone can play in the sandbox that they prefer. So dude get over yourself. They have already announced that they are making this game fun for everyone. Your single server free for all killing fest won't be fun for all the people you intend to kill.
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson
If you've ever read any of my posts on PvP, you'll know I think you're completely wrong about EQ:N including any kind of PvP. That's your opinion, and mine is different. Let's discuss a possible Karma system, then.
EQ:N might have the ability to include data about every action taken by a character in-game. Okay. I can buy that, even thought it is a lot of data to store about every character. Not only does the raw action need to be captured, that action needs to be registered against one or more specific faction.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It's more like you're to full of yourself to compromise with differential rule sets applying to different servers. The pvp servers could very well have some sort of karma system but the second you said that that isn't good enough, you closed your mind to any and all discussion over what other possible ways could limit griefing in ow pvp.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
That's exactly what I was trying to do. Discuss. Limiting. Griefing.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'd like to chime in and say for all of Age of Wushu's failing it had some splendid systems. One of which was how they handled open world pvp.
First off if you killed someone you would acquire murderer points. When you died you would go to jail for an amount time up to 24 real time hours. There you would have to pvp with other prisoners, play a board game, or sit in chat. Repeated offenders would be locked up longer in jail and scheduled for a public beheading that all can attend to name and shame the murderer. After the beheading the accused is stripped of gear and walks around with 50% stats for what I believe was 24 hours.
Then there was a bounty system that encouraged licensed bounty hunters or guilds to hunt griefers for in game money rewards. This acted as a money dump, which also helped form active player patrols to keep criminals at bay without relying on the "good nature" of the players to just step up and help someone. It's a lot easier for someone to say "hey I'm going to help that guy because I can get 200 gold from it" than just hoping goodwill will shine through.
Lastly were real guild consequences. In Age of wushu not only could you siege land from other guilds, but you could shut them down almost entirely economically. By sabotaging trade routes and killing guild vendors in the market you could in effect make it so the guild can not afford the land they built on, and to an even more devastating effect keep up internal guild cost. Without paying the guild upkeep cost you guild would cease to exist. Say goodbye to you 100+ guild if you griefed an alliance and had them concentrate their efforts in completely wiping you out in land and name.
Combine these systems with proper pvp hots spots (world wide dueling arenas, public death match arena, sieges, faction wars, battle grounds, wulin weekly server wide tourneys, faction patrol etc), a guild blood feud system that circumvented pvp restrictions on guild vs guild warfare, and you have a pvp system that is very much in control.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
I don't know if you read my post or not. I offered up something of a possibility. But I n-e-v-e-r get a response to any of my posts of such nature. And I'm not surprised that you aren't getting more than a few good efforts here either.
Mostly, it seems, gamers just can't understand anything besides what they've seen and experienced. Which is sort of useless when talking about a game that's trying to be a different experience.
Once upon a time....
That's kind of interesting, and I guess if you were beheaded you would walk around with 50% less ability for a while, heh.
But that's not a new system, although it is expanded. The problem is that it does nothing to limit wide open PKing and rampant ganking. It's a "punishment" that's only effective for a very limited time period.
But at least you are offering something to the discussion. And I do like the idea of imprisonment (play another character for a while) as a roleplay experience, and based on factions and karma or some deeper system.
Once upon a time....
Where did I ignore you before? If it was one of my 40+ page threads, give me a break.
I wasn't blaming you. Just saying how these things go.
Once upon a time....
But a game experience can be better overall, for everyone, if LIMITED PvP can be included, optionally, in a more important and "worldly" manner to the lore and player acted running history. Something with meaning. More than just instanced, unrelated PvP in a sport like manner.
Once upon a time....
No you don't get to play another character for awhile when imprisoned. if you log out of the character your timer stops. you have to wait every second of every hours there just like all the other prisoners unless you never decide to play that character again.
Server wide price on your head or guild flat lining your economy/guild disband seems harsh enough to me . Having server wide announcements of when a murder(by name) enters a zone and what they have as a bounty can make finding groups as a criminal tense to say the least. Whens the last time you pked someone and then had the other guild retaliate by destroying your markets or sieging your lands so they don't turn a profit. Then you and your guild have to find a way to make money outside of the player market, find out who to trim from the roster to cut guild cost. and if the castle they spent months getting together making is worth keeping anymore. Now your guild has to heavily guard trade routes and farm non stop to keep up with the escalating cost of maintaining a guild or fade into obscurity. All because you ganked that guy for his 5 ore and then decided to camp him.
Real consequences with real punishments. I found it worked quite well in wushu. They had good rules for "legal" pvp and ways for guilds to really have at it using blood feud type mechanics. If you wanted to be a douche they didn't limit the player from doing as such but it has real consequences. It wasn't just some asshat loling on global about camping that level 1 over and over then grouping with his friends. No it was you lol about that guy and his guild set a bounty up for you. Good luck dungeoning tonight. You lol on about camping someone now your guilds under siege and you can't set up a shop for damn near 16 hours because that enemy guild is patrolling every market mowing your afk shops down. Now those trade route contracts you take out for easy escort gold are being vandalized. You don't get it easy for being bad.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
I see. That does offer quite a bit, doesn't it. Well worth consideration for this game.
Question for you. You mentioned they had ways to allow safe PvP. Did it, or do you think, that maybe a karma system could be used as an entrance into such safe PvP? (I'm referring to my post earlier in this thread.) In other words, karma as an entrance system to a faction, where PvP is set up against one or more other factions. The gods come to mind here, but it wouldn't have to be limited to just them when a game also has thieves, etc.
Once upon a time....
Yeah that would be pretty sweet and I do agree. I always did find instanced PVP far more boring and it got old extremely fast. Either way I am all for any kind of PVP system as long as we both stated its optional and not forced on you as it is in games like Allods Online or on WoWs PVP Servers and the like. WoWs system in general was ok with me because I could play on a PVE server and then PVP only when I chose to wether it was in BGs or in the open world. Having more PVP themed events and such in the open world that are optional would be pretty sweet. With the destructible environments and how big siege warfare is getting in MMOs these days I could see some kind of siege type PVP making it in but who knows, so far they are really hush hush on the whole PVP thing so only time will tell.
I think there's more then enough room for a faction system to be integrated in a karma system. In fact I would think it would almost have to be. A faction after all is a body of like minded individuals and ideals not just a big group of people to party with. Heroes and villains should be rewarded with a place that they can truly call home. Whether its a city guard outpost, a den of thieves in the city or a cave hide away for only blood thirsty murderers.
Factions are a great way to get a player to play their "part" or reevaluate the person they are really becoming. For instance in wushu I was a robber. People would run their fat carts through town i would follow them and out numbered or not I would break and steal what I could. The rewards were mostly garbage but whether it was me or a band of thieves I had an extremely fun time doing it. This lead me to an evil life style that suited my school and had me evade most punishment from them. I would still have some bounties placed on me and guild could harass my shop but it wasn't so bad. I got away from most of the severe punishments because cart robbery was somewhat "legal" pvp. I wasn't griefing I was simply providing danger for the guild escorts getting rich off their easy pony jobs.
I later turned a new leaf and got more involved in the week long wulin tournaments. My school was neutral/evil so I was still within the guide lines of my school (faction) and still followed their guidelines.This was a great turning point for me going from stalking robber to still not so pleasant death match tourney goer. The change from someone who hails from a good school partaking in evil aligned actions is much more severe but appropriate. Things like this really make your character development feel alive and should be hand and hand with the karma system. Many games have tried to set up the foundation for something like this but i can only hope EQ next takes the next step and really pushed this to the forefront. Much like how our choices make who we are in life.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
But it's totally fine to deliver (inflict) cartoon graphics and 1 hotbar "action" combat,no roles,everyone is a DPS dodge class.
For me SOE have totally sold out to the casual crowd and don't give a shit about the players that stuck with thier previous titles. Just look how easy eq1 & eq2 are now since they first launched,it gives a very overpowering indication to how casual EQN will be.
Wait, lets get the facts straight here.
EQ1 & 2 were never hard. They were tedious. Those are not the same thing!
Now, if you want a tedious game, then that is fine, but say that!
Because PvP players are the same genus as griefers. They are not the same species but they both eat the same prey animals, and they do not understand die back. They look for larger herds to feed upon, there need be no other reason.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011