Originally posted by Novusod What you are seeing with those games is not an aspiration to be P2P but simply a cash grab to get money from the pay to play crowd. All those titles you list will be will F2P in a year or less after release. As soon as the initial box sales and subs run their course the games go free to play. We have seen this a dozen times in last few years. Guarantee you the companies running these games already have the F2P business plans ready to go. No game studio is planning to be P2P for any serious length of time. So go ahead and spend that $50 on the box and buy that year or lifetime sub. But don't complain on these forums when they go F2P and give away everything you paid for for FREE 6 months down the road. You were warned. P2P is pretty much dead because it is not really all the profitable in the long run. What is profitable is doing a massive cash grab at release by tricking naive pay 2 play gamers and then pulling the rug out from under them. These companies know exactly what they are doing here.
I can't escaped the feeling that this is true. The most profitable payment model is to start with P2P, charging for the box and a subscrption, and then going F2P when the P2P money starts to dry up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If these are AAA titles nowadays no wonder the mmorpg genre is a dying breed when it comes to quality and content. I have not seen a single F2P title which is a georgous quality mmorpg in the last years.
They are what they are. If you don't like them. You don't have to play.
And no genre last forever anyway. A lot of the innovation in gaming is not in traditional type of MMOs anyway. Games like Destiny, Division, MOBA, even online ARPG may be more popular than MMOs.
So if mmorpg dies, i will just do something else. It is not like i only play mmorpg today.
Their are nothing but half built cookie cutter F2P titles on that list that no one would pay a box plus sub for, so ya they are what they are......cheesy F2P games.
Anyone that knows anything about business knows the original F2P market was nothing but a cash grab based on the success of a couple of well made titles.
The fact that SONY has gone to it with what will most likely be a AAA title in EQN, just shows that quality casinos make more money than Best Buy and SONY wants to be a casino. And I don't think I have to explain how casinos work, the kinds of people they attract, how some people come out okay, others come out with their life's ruined and there is just a bunch of people in the middle who don't care either way they just want to "be there".
Most people in F2P games are just happy to be tooling around in a game. Those that really dive deeply into a game know that CASH SHOPS are the death nail for value. There is no value in F2P if your a hard core one game at a time gamer. There is only frustration. Because free games with cash shops are designed to frustrate you into using them.
If these are AAA titles nowadays no wonder the mmorpg genre is a dying breed when it comes to quality and content. I have not seen a single F2P title which is a georgous quality mmorpg in the last years.
They are what they are. If you don't like them. You don't have to play.
thats a strawman. noone is talking about their desire to play them or not. the OP was very explicit in his question: "why are new AAA games releasing as sub?"
giving a list of games, most of which fail to reach even halfway to a single A, let alone three, is not an argument for or against the sub model of triple A games.its pure missdirection.
Remember children, just because something makes a ton of money doesn't automatically mean its good.
Nor automatically means its bad.
I concur.
Cant wait till F2P goes away - rather, I hope it does.
if not, I'll be out of the genre.
I am pretty sure you will be out of genre before because F2P isn't going anywhere.
You don't know that for sure, really.
10+ years ago F2P was considered a "fad" and that "it couldn't last"
Point is, things change. I personally don't think there are enough "whales" out there to support the large amount of F2P MMO's. The MMO genre is due to a crash, akin to the one video games went through in the 80's.
And if not? I'll move on. Console games are a pretty decent deal right now and most of them aren't perverted with F2P crap.
No one knows the future. But i agree with your last point.
If MMO does not go my way, i can simply do something else. There is plenty of good entertainment out there.
I also don't disagree there is a possibility of a f2p crash .. who knows .. may be mmo itself is a fad and crash too. Sub-only MMOs have been crashing for quite a while. Nothing is safe from change.
But meanwhile, i can always enjoy F2P MMOs (the ones i like) till they are gone. A year is a long time in gaming. By this time next year, who knows what i will be playing?
The fact that SONY has gone to it with what will most likely be a AAA title in EQN
SONY arent going with F2P, they are going with freemium. a simple look at their other freemium games of the EQ series will tell you that their "free" option is barely an extended trial, you are missing on pretty much most of the endgame. and I predict that EQN will be even more stingy when it comes to giving away stuff to do or enjoy for free.
most F2P games give a hell lot (or even all,period) of the content for free, barely no restrictions, then have serious game-impacting cash shops (aka pay to win).
SONY does the polar oppositein their business models
poor souls thinking they will have EQN for free like they can have other games, are in for a MASSIVE dissapointment.
Most people in F2P games are just happy to be tooling around in a game. Those that really dive deeply into a game know that CASH SHOPS are the death nail for value. There is no value in F2P if your a hard core one game at a time gamer. There is only frustration. Because free games with cash shops are designed to frustrate you into using them.
That generalization is obviously not true for everyone and every game.
I just finished Marvel Heroes' main story content last week. 30 hours of fun. No frustration. 100% free. Now is finishing all the content "dive deeply into a game"?
I also play STO from time to time. Pure fun on the story missions too.
Ditto for some NWO and DDO. I ignore the cash shop 100%. Tell me, where is the frustration? There is no grind. All the content i play only once, and no repeat.
Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P? Regardless of people's predictions of how many months til a games "inevitable" conversion to a F2P cash shop, P2P is still and will always be the preferred business model for game makers. It benefits the devs and players alike, and if a game has the longevity and the fun factor built into it you should be required to compensate the game makers for providing you this service.
If people want to be nickel and dimed for content that should already be available to them for a small fee each month, more power to them. If kiddies can't get their parents to cough up a credit card so they can game, I say get a damn job. The problem with P2P isn't the business model, it is the fact that there have been no games released in recent memory worth paying a sub for.
Nothing in life is free except the grace and favor of the Lord. Support the developers that give you hours of entertainment. Long live P2P! Huzzah!
I think the biggest reason why AAA MMOs release with aspirations of being P2P when F2P is more profitible is because F2P games have a bit of a bad rap. First they were associated to sub-par MMOs with poor graphics, grindey gameplay, and aweful translation issues. Now they are associated with poor communities, lockboxes, gold spammers, and pay to win cash shops.
Few people can overlook the problems with the communities and gold spammers, and way too many people are buying into the blown out of proportion problems with lockboxes and cash shops (this may also why action combat MMOs are becoming more popular, because no matter what cash shop items an unskilled player buys, they will never be a match for a skilled player who does buy anything from the cash shop).
Remember children, just because something makes a ton of money doesn't automatically mean its good.
Nor automatically means its bad.
I concur.
Cant wait till F2P goes away - rather, I hope it does.
if not, I'll be out of the genre.
I am pretty sure you will be out of genre before because F2P isn't going anywhere.
You don't know that for sure, really.
10+ years ago F2P was considered a "fad" and that "it couldn't last"
Point is, things change. I personally don't think there are enough "whales" out there to support the large amount of F2P MMO's. The MMO genre is due to a crash, akin to the one video games went through in the 80's.
And if not? I'll move on. Console games are a pretty decent deal right now and most of them aren't perverted with F2P crap.
I do because F2P existed along with P2P for many years now. The only difference is that now it took over. So like is aid earlier..quit now because F2P model will always exist. It might die out in popularity but it is not going to just cease to exist.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P? Regardless of people's predictions of how many months til a games "inevitable" conversion to a F2P cash shop, P2P is still and will always be the preferred business model for game makers. It benefits the devs and players alike, and if a game has the longevity and the fun factor built into it you should be required to compensate the game makers for providing you this service.
If people want to be nickel and dimed for content that should already be available to them for a small fee each month, more power to them. If kiddies can't get their parents to cough up a credit card so they can game, I say get a damn job. The problem with P2P isn't the business model, it is the fact that there have been no games released in recent memory worth paying a sub for.
Nothing in life is free except the grace and favor of the Lord. Support the developers that give you hours of entertainment. Long live P2P! Huzzah!
Let me see...
Box Sales and using hype to suck buyers into 6 month / year subscriptions.
That sounds about right... What AAA title has stayed pure P2P? None, even WoW has a cash shop. So I really don't see your argument.
Even what you consider AAA titles (completely subjective) have alternate revenue models on release. So I am not seeing the traditional pure sub based P2P MMOs. I am not sure what games you are looking at. Most within 1 year will introduce more micro-transaction options. Your argument sounds more like wishful thinking than actual substantive observation.
FF XIV, pure sub with no cash shop. Wildstar, requires sub to log in. ESO the same? 3 of the 4 AAA mmo's on the horizon in my subjective opinion. WoW having a cash shop is somewhat irrelevant. It is good business on their part. They have millions of faces looking at their product, why would they not also try to market you fluff? Have they added any items that you must purchase to advance or that don't already have an in game equivalent that your sub grants access to? The game is still P2P because it generates the most revenue possible.
The argument is what is the most profitable business model for a successful game in the long run? Is there any way that a game that keeps high sub numbers for years doesn't do better as P2P as opposed to F2P?
You are making an argument that P2P is the superior business model for MMOs. I am pointing out that there has not been a pure P2P title that has been successful in a long time. Lets take a look at the three you listed... FF XIV (First, this is not a new game this is a dead game repackaged for additional box sales and more life on sub based income). How about Wildstar? This is pretty close, but they have the C.R.E.D.D. system which allow real money to be used to purchase CREDD for services on a stock exchange type system. So nope... not pure P2P there either. Now finally ESO... They flat out have a cash shop which will be operational on release.
The only one that could be considered pure P2P model is FF XIV, however that is a re-release of a game that failed using pure P2P.
Pure box sale + sub games are dead. Sure some will be released that way, but within a year they switch over to F2P type models. Unfortunately because we have people willing to pay box+subs there will be those companies that use both revenue models to gouge players as much as possible.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Pure box sale + sub games are dead. Sure some will be released that way, but within a year they switch over to F2P type models. Unfortunately because we have people willing to pay box+subs there will be those companies that use both revenue models to gouge players as much as possible.
Pretty much. It would be interesting to watch ESO's grand experiment of revival the undead business model.
Why are the majority of AAA MMO's releasing with aspirations of being P2P? Regardless of people's predictions of how many months til a games "inevitable" conversion to a F2P cash shop, P2P is still and will always be the preferred business model for game makers. It benefits the devs and players alike, and if a game has the longevity and the fun factor built into it you should be required to compensate the game makers for providing you this service.
If people want to be nickel and dimed for content that should already be available to them for a small fee each month, more power to them. If kiddies can't get their parents to cough up a credit card so they can game, I say get a damn job. The problem with P2P isn't the business model, it is the fact that there have been no games released in recent memory worth paying a sub for.
Nothing in life is free except the grace and favor of the Lord. Support the developers that give you hours of entertainment. Long live P2P! Huzzah!
F2p has the cheapest "crash-protection" for marketing arms of these companies.
Free = children and youth
Pay = adults & people with income
I grew up on premium MMORPG's (UO/EQ/AC), I am now 18 years older now... just like Smedley, Brad & Lord British, etc..
& today I still want premium game!
WoW is as generic and mediocre as you can get right now.. moving to F2P is where it belongs. It technically can't compete with some java-games.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Comments
I can't escaped the feeling that this is true. The most profitable payment model is to start with P2P, charging for the box and a subscrption, and then going F2P when the P2P money starts to dry up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Their are nothing but half built cookie cutter F2P titles on that list that no one would pay a box plus sub for, so ya they are what they are......cheesy F2P games.
Anyone that knows anything about business knows the original F2P market was nothing but a cash grab based on the success of a couple of well made titles.
The fact that SONY has gone to it with what will most likely be a AAA title in EQN, just shows that quality casinos make more money than Best Buy and SONY wants to be a casino. And I don't think I have to explain how casinos work, the kinds of people they attract, how some people come out okay, others come out with their life's ruined and there is just a bunch of people in the middle who don't care either way they just want to "be there".
Most people in F2P games are just happy to be tooling around in a game. Those that really dive deeply into a game know that CASH SHOPS are the death nail for value. There is no value in F2P if your a hard core one game at a time gamer. There is only frustration. Because free games with cash shops are designed to frustrate you into using them.
thats a strawman. noone is talking about their desire to play them or not. the OP was very explicit in his question: "why are new AAA games releasing as sub?"
giving a list of games, most of which fail to reach even halfway to a single A, let alone three, is not an argument for or against the sub model of triple A games.its pure missdirection.
lets focus on the discussion at hand, please
No one knows the future. But i agree with your last point.
If MMO does not go my way, i can simply do something else. There is plenty of good entertainment out there.
I also don't disagree there is a possibility of a f2p crash .. who knows .. may be mmo itself is a fad and crash too. Sub-only MMOs have been crashing for quite a while. Nothing is safe from change.
But meanwhile, i can always enjoy F2P MMOs (the ones i like) till they are gone. A year is a long time in gaming. By this time next year, who knows what i will be playing?
SONY arent going with F2P, they are going with freemium. a simple look at their other freemium games of the EQ series will tell you that their "free" option is barely an extended trial, you are missing on pretty much most of the endgame. and I predict that EQN will be even more stingy when it comes to giving away stuff to do or enjoy for free.
most F2P games give a hell lot (or even all,period) of the content for free, barely no restrictions, then have serious game-impacting cash shops (aka pay to win).
SONY does the polar oppositein their business models
poor souls thinking they will have EQN for free like they can have other games, are in for a MASSIVE dissapointment.
That generalization is obviously not true for everyone and every game.
I just finished Marvel Heroes' main story content last week. 30 hours of fun. No frustration. 100% free. Now is finishing all the content "dive deeply into a game"?
I also play STO from time to time. Pure fun on the story missions too.
Ditto for some NWO and DDO. I ignore the cash shop 100%. Tell me, where is the frustration? There is no grind. All the content i play only once, and no repeat.
I think the biggest reason why AAA MMOs release with aspirations of being P2P when F2P is more profitible is because F2P games have a bit of a bad rap. First they were associated to sub-par MMOs with poor graphics, grindey gameplay, and aweful translation issues. Now they are associated with poor communities, lockboxes, gold spammers, and pay to win cash shops.
Few people can overlook the problems with the communities and gold spammers, and way too many people are buying into the blown out of proportion problems with lockboxes and cash shops (this may also why action combat MMOs are becoming more popular, because no matter what cash shop items an unskilled player buys, they will never be a match for a skilled player who does buy anything from the cash shop).
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
I do because F2P existed along with P2P for many years now. The only difference is that now it took over. So like is aid earlier..quit now because F2P model will always exist. It might die out in popularity but it is not going to just cease to exist.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
You are making an argument that P2P is the superior business model for MMOs. I am pointing out that there has not been a pure P2P title that has been successful in a long time. Lets take a look at the three you listed... FF XIV (First, this is not a new game this is a dead game repackaged for additional box sales and more life on sub based income). How about Wildstar? This is pretty close, but they have the C.R.E.D.D. system which allow real money to be used to purchase CREDD for services on a stock exchange type system. So nope... not pure P2P there either. Now finally ESO... They flat out have a cash shop which will be operational on release.
The only one that could be considered pure P2P model is FF XIV, however that is a re-release of a game that failed using pure P2P.
Pure box sale + sub games are dead. Sure some will be released that way, but within a year they switch over to F2P type models. Unfortunately because we have people willing to pay box+subs there will be those companies that use both revenue models to gouge players as much as possible.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Pretty much. It would be interesting to watch ESO's grand experiment of revival the undead business model.
F2p has the cheapest "crash-protection" for marketing arms of these companies.
Free = children and youth
Pay = adults & people with income
I grew up on premium MMORPG's (UO/EQ/AC), I am now 18 years older now... just like Smedley, Brad & Lord British, etc..
& today I still want premium game!
WoW is as generic and mediocre as you can get right now.. moving to F2P is where it belongs. It technically can't compete with some java-games.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon