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Number one reason why this game will fail hard
Komandor
Member Posts: 272
No PVP and no player looting. Typical carebare BS.
Modern day MMO devs are behaving like clowns:
"HERP A DERPA, There are 99% MMOS on Market with carbare catering and no HARDCORE PVP...LET'S MAKE ANOTHER ONE!"
Yeah, people have achieved a lot with copying others and not being innovative.
Modern day MMO devs are behaving like clowns:
"HERP A DERPA, There are 99% MMOS on Market with carbare catering and no HARDCORE PVP...LET'S MAKE ANOTHER ONE!"
Yeah, people have achieved a lot with copying others and not being innovative.
Keep on rockin'!
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Personally, I lost most interest when the devs came out and said, "Each player will be in their own instanced universe..." or words to that effect.
So not only can players not really influence the world, but they can't even affect what other players do/see/interact with.
In the end, it will likely do "well enough" because some people will play anything. But I don't expect ESO to be anything special, either. (Too many compromises to gameplay and too much "That's too hard...." from the devs.)
There isn't a single full loot pvp game on the market that has come anywhere close to the success of the types of games you label as "carebear catering", and even EVE fits into that description. The reason is that only a small minority like full loot pvp games. There is no good commercial reason for publishers and developers to cater for such a minority, which is why that group of players relies on indie games (like the upcoming Divergence Online) and probably feels unloved by the major companies.
There isn't a single full loot pvp game on the market that has come anywhere close to the success of the types of games you label as "carebear catering", and even EVE fits into that description. The reason is that only a small minority like full loot pvp games. There is no good commercial reason for publishers and developers to cater for such a minority, which is why that group of players relies on indie games (like the upcoming Divergence Online) and probably feels unloved by the major companies.
What is Ultima Online. EVE is hardcore tooKeep on rockin'!
That's because your HARDCORE PVP is a FAIL. Always has been and always will be. There aren't enough of you overinflated egomaniacs out there to keep a game such as you want afloat. Deal with it.
And neither are as successful as "carebear catering" games. Is my point.
You fooled me...
I was expecting an orriginal reason...
well, maybe time will learn you to accept that 99% of all players dont like player looting, resulting in all AAA+ MMOs not supporting this feature. the last major game with this feature was UO, and there is a reason for this. Feutures like this prevented UO from growing and attracting new gamers.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Uh not sure where you've been as there is a massive PvP zone called Cryodiil and it has dynamic PvP with Siege warfare, Keeps, Alliance vs Alliance, etc...
Player looting is only going to occur in games designed entirely with Non Consensual Open World PvP in mind
Elder Scrolls Online is the name of the game, take some time to catch up on the info train before you troll these forums
I am not actually an advocate for full loot in most cases I do think it is a niche market for that. However on the point of no world pvp OP is correct. Centralized pvp areas or instances are not world pvp, I think of them more as events, just as Arena is another type of pvp event. There is a point to be made that the most successful mmorpgs do indeed have world pvp even if that world pvp has lots of save zones and brutally powerful town guards. The worry with this game is its doing the same mistakes GW2 made, thinking they can simply make a casual pve game with some warzones and call it a day.
Now if the naysayers are right and the PVE is not challenging then you will really have problems because then the entire game is about fighting over the middle. Then you have to ask yourself how long do I want to do this same thing with my character, like doing the same battleground however large forever will get boring at some point. Which means they are depending on players the be so enthralled by elder scrolls lore that they will not notice there is not much else for them to do other than run pve quests and jump in the massive warzone in the middle. Looks like the GW2 formula to me.
I have also played every Elder Scrolls game from the beginning and most of us have already enjoyed the pve aspect of the games, the point in making this an mmorpg should not be to take away to one reason most of us wanted an mmo for Elder Scrolls in the first place interaction with other players. This no no bullying PC stuff is just going to make people bored and in a few months like GW2 they will leave.
And to put it delicately I know a certain player group does not like being messed with when they are questing, gathering, hunting, etc. But those elements have to be in the game for it to hold interest. PVP is not niche thats like calling PVE niche just because some PVE is done in RAIDS, There are a ton of casual pvpers in every pvp zone on ever major mmorpg title. WOW, EVE, Lineage, etc.
I don't even know how you can compare EVE to a fantasy MMO to begin with. What works with EVE may not work with different types of MMOs.
PVP see links
True there is no player looting, but that doesn't mean the pvp can be fun, exciting, challenging.....
Have you played it already?
I havn't so I keep judgement untill I actually get a taste of it.
The carebare statement doesn't really seem to apply towards ESO atleast not from what I have read. So again perhaps you OP might have already played the game to come up with your number one reason.
ESO's Matt Frior: "you can solo the entire game." "ESO is not a MMO."
rofl. pass. ya i can do that in Skyrim too and i dont have to pay a subscription. So basically a subscription is for the massive amount of phasing youll experience even with friends playing next to you. So basically 15$ a month so you can play a watered down, inferior version of Skyrim. With weak pvp thrown in. As much as i'd love a true ES themed MMO.. this just isnt it. Doesnt interest me in the slightest bit.
Well how about we dispense with the wisenheimer BS concerning how PvP should be in an MMORPG and get right down to the nitty gritty concerning how PvP should be implimented in an Elder Scrolls MMO which is linked to a well established RPG franchise...shall we?
I've participated in enough PvP in MMOs to handle any debate you can bring to these forums derived from your fantastical PvP ideas for ESO.
Take a moment and consider there are plenty of niche PvP MMOs out there which should surely wet any PvP enthusiasts appetite for open world non consensual pvp, even with looting options of players corpses.
So why would anyone want to ruin this franchise with this kind of nonsense as it certainly is entirely as this is a self centered notion at best.
I was one of many who question how challenging PvE is going to be in this game with what I have viewed to date as it isn't hard to find leaked videos of any MMO in development if anyone is really curious, committed and resourceful enough. Though it has been stated that demos and leaked videos shouldn't be taken so seriously as they are beta builds (duh) which shouldn't reflect how the game will be upon release as any of us with any kind of beta experience should comprehend. Im sure the MOBs are on easy mode and will be tweaked throughout beta as spring 2014 is the projected release date. Also, it was stated by Firor himself that certain instanced dungeons difficulty level can be adjusted as I would hope risk vs reward is also taken into account upon the achievement of successful completion of said dungeons (if you catch my drift).
Cryodiil isn't enough? Ever play Dark Age of Camelot? Well thankfully I have and it was considered one of the best PvP MMORPGs and it even had an area dedicated to strictly to PvP much as it is being implimented in ESO. Former DAoC developers are at the helm of ESO and we should have be ecstatic instead of constantly being critical/judgemental constantly wanting, wanting, wanting...
Maybe I am just one of those PvP enthusiasts who desire a challenging PvP opponents who are prepared, resourceful and on the ready to meet any challenge that may come their way in an area designed for PvP in mind; Instead of resorting to ganking, griefing, bushwacking, ambushing, etc... which is all too common in PvP MMOs as many have witnessed firsthand and why open world PvP has such a bad rap.
Hopefully they will allow dueling within alliance areas to resolve any dispute, challenge, exercise, competition, etc...that may arise during gameplay.
So before we continue with this charade concerning how PvP should be implimented in ESO, consider first and foremost this is a well established fanchise called Elder Scrolls that has been around for decades as the very title of the game carries much weight upon the shoulders of those developing it...
I dont know if PVP implemented this way is right for any game, this is not even true RVR this is a designated battle zone basically like GW2 but not instanced well not totally. Which begs two questions in my mind. One Why have strict factions and not have playable Imperials if you are just fighting over the center of the map. Second you have these major factions bordering each others actual territory, but they cannot fight each other unless they run towards Daggerfall. So, what happens when I take an Argonian to Hammerfell, they just have to stare at me until I aggro a town guard?
I mean that cant be true right. This is just over the top, this server structure is very PVE centered. At the least they should have some actual pvp servers with cross faction and the main battlezone otherwise I cant see this being very interesting, so far it is infuriating.
Gotcha
Don't type in blue; it makes it difficult to read for people that aren't twats
Don't forget Darkfall another full loot pvp hardcore game. It might not be as complete/polish as EVE/UO but it falls in the same category. I agree with OP 100%. We are sick of seeing recycle stuff years after years. Nothing in ESO is revolutionary. For me it is GW2 reskined.
Now Playing: DARKFALL Unholy Wars "Return to Open World, Full Loot PvP, Conquest in a Sandbox MMO with player driven economy! Just like classic MMOs!"
Eve is not a good argument regarding ffa pvp games because it has a big part of universe where you can avoid pvp. Played it for 2 years, I was only in pvp a few days when I tried faction warfare.
Well it might fail from your prospective, but having just landed from gamescom in Koln tonight I have to disagree with what you have said. I think you under estimate what most players want. PVP is a niche market and you are way off the mark. If they made a PvP only game it would fail imo as there would not be enough players to justify the work or paying the wages to make the game.
Wow did a good job of making a pvp mmo but as I never played the game I'm not able to compare it with DF or MO, however Eve is doing well but that not hard core in the sense you mean, only 10% of Eve if that are PVP.
Having watched the queues of people playing this game made me realise this will be another smash hit. These people queued all day long every single day right up to the death. Having seen and heard the feed-back from the people who played it just for thirty minutes makes me feel this game will be a big success and you are under estimating it purely on your gaming needs and not the masses.
While I understand and appreciate your frustration all you are doing with your post is annoying your self because you do not see anything in the game atm which suits your play style, but it will be interesting to see the end result of the game once it does go live. I spoke to a few of the guys there and they feel there will be something for everyone.
I'd pop back after the games has gone live and then write in your post again if it's not been locked before then.
Bandit.
Asbo
Lol'ed at your comments about twats, thanks for making me giggle...
Asbo
Glad I didn't participate in Guild Wars 2 as I watch the videos and just cringe wondering why people still participate in this drivel this late in this genre and I can only come up with one answer....what else is there to play?
Why is it so hard for everyone stuck on the trinity and/or strictly structured class roles to open up to building a character/template which isn't so predictible and limited in its role/function which would bring more viability and versatility for gameplay, especially in PvP???
One very poor example (Guild Wars 2) shouldn't leave ya'll so jaded you cannot give any other game a chance to bring something refreshing and redeeming to the market.
Real Time combat is what I have always yearned for in MMORPGs as I do not see Guild Wars 2 as a true representation of Real Time combat nor do I see Darkfall as one either.
Combat Animations may not be as good as I would want in some of the videos/demos I have viewed for Elder Scrolls Online though it isn't going to be hard for them to improve them as the game goes on as this is a subscription game which will improve overtime after release with patches and content updates.
I remember playing Asheron's Call where one could real time dodge line of sight spells and even though this is a part of some of the MMORPGs like GW2 and Darkfall it still isn't where it should be over a decade later...
Also consider Elder Scrolls Online is going to be multi platform and finally we can do some quality PvP in an MMORPG on a console.
If you want to make sure this game succeeds in PvP or even PvE then sign up for the beta test...cause posting on forums and ranting/raving about certain facets of the game isn't going to help us help them create game mechanics which all of us will thoroughly enjoy in whatever we choose to do in Tamriel.
Im with you on that one...GW2 failed a lot harder than anyone on this site will admit. I got to play because people are literally giving away their accounts.
I get why it exists, it seems to remove all forms of progression, itemization, and skill building from the game...which to me made it a really shallow experience...yeah I know you are suppose to just play it because its there and it suppose to be fun...but its not really fun, challenging, or interesting.
Its really a MMORPG made for people who don't like RPG games. I think they have, what, 4 servers running now...quite a steep drop...and they haven't bothered to sell an expansion (remember every 6 months they were going to sell content) as I assume few would really bother buying it.
Thing is, with ESO...I don't want it to be like a normal mmorpg...even if there is some complexity behind it. I would rather it be more like a TES single player game (just with other people). Im not sure they can deliver that.
To make an online TES work, it would have to be heavily instanced (not the open world but every house and most NPC's) which is something that flips people irrational switch and makes them hate the game regardless how good it is.
Its going to be a tough sell. The most vocal people in the mmorpg community want cheap, easy to access PVP. They want zero progression (progression = grind remember) and they want no choices...they don't want to choose a class bad at pvp...actually when you think about it...GW2 was made just for these people.
Either way, unless there is a solid single player TES fan showing to this game, its going to go down like every other mmorpg. The pvpers are going to take over, wreck pve balance, cause the developers to ignore issues elsewhere in the game. People are going to want stuff to be completed easier, with no effort and high reward. This is why every mmorpg gets easier and dumbed down.. the most vocal people want it that way.
I play to play ESO early, at launch, before the complainers ruin the game. I hope I can get a TES experience out of it, and get out before they cater to the general masses.
And yeah this game is going to have TONS of people overlook the entire game and hate it for poor combat animations or something trivial like instanced NPC houses ect. Or pvp issues...I mean really pvp in a TES game...I don't even know why they bothered with it...it will take over the course of development after launch...mark my words...people wont even like it im sure...
So you have gone to a game convention and know you have the right to speak with what I a gamer wants in a game?!? PVP is FAR FAR from Niche its the backbone of the large majority of games played. AI simply will never be as adept at strategy and deception as another player. Most of the world has grown up playing PLAYER VRS PLAYER GAMES....
From Darts, to Cards, to Chess, Checkers, basketball, wrestling to first person shooters to MMO's
Ultima Online was one of the best MMO's to ever be released and it was very successful WITH OMG FULL LOOT....
I would ask you to STOP Posting on my behalf and POST FOR YOURSELF!!!
PVP is not a niche.... its a staple of gaming and has been since before our grandparents were born!!!
I for one am sick and tired of the remade wow clones, I am tired of Instanced BULL CRAP, I am tired of carebear rule sets!
I like many am waiting and waiting for something decent to be made in a:
SANDBOX - a world you can totally alter like Wurm Online
With PVP- Balanced and fun PvP like Ultima Online
With CRAFTING (No not your little buddy doing stuff while your logged out) But REAL CRAFTING like Star Wars Galaxies had....
Made by a decent company with money like Blizzard....
You cannot tell me that the formula listed above: A great sandbox / with balanced pvp / and amazing crafting wouldn't be a
HUGE HIT not a niche game as so many of you carebears like chant like some sorta carebear company slogin!!!
AND NO
Eve is not it
neither is DarkFall or Mortal Online
Nor is Wurm Online (though wurm maybe the closest and that is sad that a tiny 1 man Rolf Jansen company is the closest thing to what we want above!)
Game Companys wake up we are sick of theamparks we are sick of questing we are sick of PvE
give us something worth playing already.....
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
Actually, you are wrong on this to some extent. While all of hardcore PVP isn't a niche, it becomes one depending the type of game being made. It really doesn't matter what you personally think. All that matters to companies what what the majority think and what they think.
A lot of players don't like to lose items. It's even worse when you have a bunch of losers camping the beginner areas. A lot of players don't like world PVP. At the same time we have the opposite side of the coin and everyone else mixed and in between.
How does a company decide? I truthfully have no idea how that decision is made, but as I said, it probably is done through what majority of the audience wants.
Now let me clarify that I personally think hardcrore world pvp would become extremely popular if developers put in a really really good outlaw and jail system. The issues with that is PVPers complain when they are not rewarded for PVP and are instead frowned apon. This makes the PVP community look like a bunch of *insert curse word*. I never understood how anyone could want to be rewarded for killing someone. THAT is what causes the issue of putting this type of PVP in the game. It causes way to many issues.
It's nearly impossible to cater to everyone. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the developers decide based more on which would cause more issues. In the end "carebear" pvp just causes the least amount of issues for players and developers.
You could say hardcore PVPers sort of killed themselves from this genre by the way they act. No one wants to deal with that.
This game won't fail because it has no open world PvP. It will fail because it is no MMORPG. It is a nice CoOp game that you play with a group of friends and once you are done with the story and you come to the point where you have to grind dailies everyone will lose interest fast.
This game has nothing that GW2 does not have and GW2 is a onetime payment only while ESO has subscription+shop(in preperation for when they drop the sub-model after one year)