I always get confused by posts like this, one of the worst parts of SWG to me was the fact ( even Koster talks about this) they had no time to make questing viable, they were stuck with relying on a grind out skill point advancement system. There were no options in SWG in regard to how to skill up, unless you count what spawn point to camp or which solo group to join.
This is most surely not where SWG shined. I hope what you're saying is not that they take away the final fantasy part of the adventure, and leave you to grind out dungeon after dungeon or fate after fate, to reach a finished build.
Grinding with friends is a million times more fun than doing linear scripted instanced easy chores for 60 levels.
Themeparks don't give you leveling options, generally. In DAoC I could do tasks, battlegrounds, group grinding, occasional quests, ect. In a game like LotRO, your only option is to quest grind. It's an anti social anti MMO activity. So I'm glad that, given having to choose ONE, they chose the better one.
I'll have to respectively disagree at least where SWG was concerned as most went about "grinding" AFK through macros.
Another area where SWG was different, IMO, is that your choices were a lot more limited. Since you only had 250 Skill Points to invest across the board, you had to focus on one thing and try to make your left over points synergize with your points in mastery. So if you were primarily a crafter, you couldn't really focus on mastering combat as well.
I always get confused by posts like this, one of the worst parts of SWG to me was the fact ( even Koster talks about this) they had no time to make questing viable, they were stuck with relying on a grind out skill point advancement system. There were no options in SWG in regard to how to skill up, unless you count what spawn point to camp or which solo group to join.
This is most surely not where SWG shined. I hope what you're saying is not that they take away the final fantasy part of the adventure, and leave you to grind out dungeon after dungeon or fate after fate, to reach a finished build.
Grinding with friends is a million times more fun than doing linear scripted instanced easy chores for 60 levels.
Themeparks don't give you leveling options, generally. In DAoC I could do tasks, battlegrounds, group grinding, occasional quests, ect. In a game like LotRO, your only option is to quest grind. It's an anti social anti MMO activity. So I'm glad that, given having to choose ONE, they chose the better one.
I'll have to respectively disagree at least where SWG was concerned as most went about "grinding" AFK through macros.
The solo grouping in SWG was a choice people made to level faster and it was the bad design of the game (small flaws SOE just seemed to fail to address) that encouraged that. I had my most fun when I was new and my friends were new, walking across the tall grass on Corellia only to have one of my friends whack a wild vynok nest and like 50 of them come pouring out. It was counter productive, but hilarious and fun.
When I think back on it; I often wonder if it is better off to go unwittingly into these game worlds and go ahead and be terrible at them, so long as you are having fun, or to read up on forums and learn how to play efficiently yet kill the mystery of the game and the hilarious failures that come with it.
SoE proposed to make the biggest sandbox yet. But I still see a Theme Park. Just because they have given tools to the players to create content, doesn't mean that content is not a Theme Park experience.. Themeparks still need development. Who does it doesn't define the nature of the game or experience. For 99.9% of EQN's playerbase, it will be someone else's content that is created. The experience is still Theme Park. And for those few who actually are able to create content for the game, it will be a sliver of the content they create. For the rest of the game it will again be mostly someone else's content. The developer passing on the task of creating it has all the sudden become the definition of Sandbox. With such blurred lines and definitions of what a sand box is, how can anyone say what is or isn't anymore?
This is where you're really showing a lack of understanding of what themeparks and sandboxes are. First, I will admit there is no real definition of a "true sandbox". Every "Sandbox MMORPG" that has ever released has not been a "pure sandbox" experience.
However, EQN is by far way more "sandbox" in many aspects, regardless of what you think a sandbox is.
-Player created content. Nuff said.
-Ability to drastically change the world through your actions (destructible environments, AI that changes and reacts to your deeds and actions, world events with multiple outcomes that have a permanent effect on the world, etc). Player actions change the world. This is a key sandbox feature no matter how you slice it. In FFXIV, killing that band of goblins has absolutely zero effect on the world. Succeeding at a FATE event has zero effect on the world. They just respawn/repop in a few minutes. Passing / failing events, quests, etc in FFXIV has zero world impact. This is the exact opposite of a sandbox experience and is exactly what EQN is going to have.
-Extremely Free-roaming. EQN is being based on Horizontal progression. There may be some some vertical progression (gear tiers for example) but they already stated that players will never "out level" content. You will never get some gear tear, or hit a certain level, or unlock enough classes and then steam roll a raid-difficulty mob solo like you do in vertical progression games.
Hell, you probably won't even be able to handle group content solo for that matter. The game is being designed with no "trivial content". All of the game world is going to be viable to play in, even after your characters is years old. Crush Bone will still be a threat to 3 year old characters.
In the end, EQN is not a "pure sandbox", but of course, no MMORPG in history has been. It's always been a mix. However, EQN is shaping up to be the most sandbox MMORPG experience to date from the information we already have.
Hope this helps you understand the situation a little better buddy.
SoE proposed to make the biggest sandbox yet. But I still see a Theme Park. Just because they have given tools to the players to create content, doesn't mean that content is not a Theme Park experience.. Themeparks still need development. Who does it doesn't define the nature of the game or experience. For 99.9% of EQN's playerbase, it will be someone else's content that is created. The experience is still Theme Park. And for those few who actually are able to create content for the game, it will be a sliver of the content they create. For the rest of the game it will again be mostly someone else's content. The developer passing on the task of creating it has all the sudden become the definition of Sandbox. With such blurred lines and definitions of what a sand box is, how can anyone say what is or isn't anymore?
This is where you're really showing a lack of understanding of what themeparks and sandboxes are. First, I will admit there is no real definition of a "true sandbox". Every "Sandbox MMORPG" that has ever released has not been a "pure sandbox" experience.
However, EQN is by far way more "sandbox" in many aspects, regardless of what you think a sandbox is.
-Player created content. Nuff said.
-Ability to drastically change the world through your actions (destructible environments, AI that changes and reacts to your deeds and actions, world events with multiple outcomes that have a permanent effect on the world, etc). Player actions change the world. This is a key sandbox feature no matter how you slice it. In FFXIV, killing that band of goblins has absolutely zero effect on the world. Succeeding at a FATE event has zero effect on the world. They just respawn/repop in a few minutes. Passing / failing events, quests, etc in FFXIV has zero world impact. This is the exact opposite of a sandbox experience and is exactly what EQN is going to have.
-Extremely Free-roaming. EQN is being based on Horizontal progression. There may be some some vertical progression (gear tiers for example) but they already stated that players will never "out level" content. You will never get some gear tear, or hit a certain level, or unlock enough classes and then steam roll a raid-difficulty mob solo like you do in vertical progression games.
Hell, you probably won't even be able to handle group content solo for that matter. The game is being designed with no "trivial content". All of the game world is going to be viable to play in, even after your characters is years old. Crush Bone will still be a threat to 3 year old characters.
In the end, EQN is not a "pure sandbox", but of course, no MMORPG in history has been. It's always been a mix. However, EQN is shaping up to be the most sandbox MMORPG experience to date from the information we already have.
Hope this helps you understand the situation a little better buddy.
Actually the is a clear definition of a "True Sandbox" it's any application where you are free to build and destroy content,there are no rules only building blocks and a blank canvas to start with.
Where the waters get muddy is when you add the term game in because true sandboxes are not games even if you can have fun with them.
It doesn't help that industry journalists often use the term sandbox when they mean open world but there are no standards when it comes to games journalism(Hell there are barely any standards left when it comes to news and current affairs journalism now).
It seems sandbox is also now a desirable buzz word and as such marketers and fans will try to apply it to their chosen game to add hype and approval.
at lvl 43, I have not run out of quests once. (on my main class ofc)
Everytime you finish a section of storyline, youre directed to a new map, or town which opens a buttload of quests. Being a completionist, with huntinglog and company log, I dont see any way you could run out of quests, unless you completely skipped a part of the pve, like logs or fates.
SoE proposed to make the biggest sandbox yet. But I still see a Theme Park. Just because they have given tools to the players to create content, doesn't mean that content is not a Theme Park experience.. Themeparks still need development. Who does it doesn't define the nature of the game or experience. For 99.9% of EQN's playerbase, it will be someone else's content that is created. The experience is still Theme Park. And for those few who actually are able to create content for the game, it will be a sliver of the content they create. For the rest of the game it will again be mostly someone else's content. The developer passing on the task of creating it has all the sudden become the definition of Sandbox. With such blurred lines and definitions of what a sand box is, how can anyone say what is or isn't anymore?
This is where you're really showing a lack of understanding of what themeparks and sandboxes are. First, I will admit there is no real definition of a "true sandbox". Every "Sandbox MMORPG" that has ever released has not been a "pure sandbox" experience.
However, EQN is by far way more "sandbox" in many aspects, regardless of what you think a sandbox is.
-Player created content. Nuff said.
-Ability to drastically change the world through your actions (destructible environments, AI that changes and reacts to your deeds and actions, world events with multiple outcomes that have a permanent effect on the world, etc). Player actions change the world. This is a key sandbox feature no matter how you slice it. In FFXIV, killing that band of goblins has absolutely zero effect on the world. Succeeding at a FATE event has zero effect on the world. They just respawn/repop in a few minutes. Passing / failing events, quests, etc in FFXIV has zero world impact. This is the exact opposite of a sandbox experience and is exactly what EQN is going to have.
-Extremely Free-roaming. EQN is being based on Horizontal progression. There may be some some vertical progression (gear tiers for example) but they already stated that players will never "out level" content. You will never get some gear tear, or hit a certain level, or unlock enough classes and then steam roll a raid-difficulty mob solo like you do in vertical progression games.
Hell, you probably won't even be able to handle group content solo for that matter. The game is being designed with no "trivial content". All of the game world is going to be viable to play in, even after your characters is years old. Crush Bone will still be a threat to 3 year old characters.
In the end, EQN is not a "pure sandbox", but of course, no MMORPG in history has been. It's always been a mix. However, EQN is shaping up to be the most sandbox MMORPG experience to date from the information we already have.
Hope this helps you understand the situation a little better buddy.
Actually the is a clear definition of a "True Sandbox" it's any application where you are free to build and destroy content,there are no rules only building blocks and a blank canvas to start with.
Where the waters get muddy is when you add the term game in because true sandboxes are not games even if you can have fun with them.
It doesn't help that industry journalists often use the term sandbox when they mean open world but there are no standards when it comes to games journalism(Hell there are barely any standards left when it comes to news and current affairs journalism now).
It seems sandbox is also now a desirable buzz word and as such marketers and fans will try to apply it to their chosen game to add hype and approval.
Very true. A pure sandbox is not a game, because it has no set rules, limits or goals, which are key components to a "Game". A sandbox is more of a "toy".
But an MMORP"G" is a game, and therefor any Sandbox MMORPG can not be a pure sandbox.
Which was the basis of my point. There are some sand-boxy MMORPGs, but none of them are true "sandboxes". Everything I said holds true.
I was kind of thinking the content becomes a jumbled mess right around the time you get your chocobo. I guess you could consider that a world wide open though.
My problem is that I find just about every form of content in the game to be bleh.
Part of the problem is that mobs NEVER (at least up thru 25) drop loot. Just occasional crafting supplies. Snore.
2.5s GCD doesn't help. Simplified class design vs simplified content in slow motion. Can I get a woot from someone who has trouble coloring between the lines? Amen little infant brother! Maybe they thought adding a second to every action you repeat a million times would slow down the leveling? Failure if so since people easily hit the cap in a few days.
Questing is ultra simplistic and generic. I'm really tired of emoting at NPCs and while kill 50 is over the top, kill 3 is just as over the top. The most annoying thing to me though, and this is something MMORPGs do to you too often, is the "travel across half the planet to do something trivial, like talk to an npc for 10 seconds, then travel back. have a cookie!" type of quests. It's just time sink and not very interesting. And it's expensive in this game since travel is costly unless you want to RUN for those....and eff that.
Fates have been zergs. Mobs appear out of thin air and get summarily massacred. People are already forming groups to go around and mindlessly massacre since it's ok xp and token thingies for GC.
Dungeon bosses have been decent. The dungeons themselves couldn't be any more bland and generic. The somewhat sexy graphics of the world don't really apply in dungeons.
Levemetes get boring pretty fast but at least you can sorta/maybe/sometimes/not really ratchet up the difficulty (I never find them difficult on any setting, really).
I can only hope they're saving the best for last and that endgame instances and stuff are a little more compelling.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
I was kind of thinking the content becomes a jumbled mess right around the time you get your chocobo. I guess you could consider that a world wide open though.
My problem is that I find just about every form of content in the game to be bleh.
Part of the problem is that mobs NEVER (at least up thru 25) drop loot. Just occasional crafting supplies. Snore.
2.5s GCD doesn't help. Simplified class design vs simplified content in slow motion. Can I get a woot from someone who has trouble coloring between the lines? Amen little infant brother! Maybe they thought adding a second to every action you repeat a million times would slow down the leveling? Failure if so since people easily hit the cap in a few days.
Questing is ultra simplistic and generic. I'm really tired of emoting at NPCs and while kill 50 is over the top, kill 3 is just as over the top. The most annoying thing to me though, and this is something MMORPGs do to you too often, is the "travel across half the planet to do something trivial, like talk to an npc for 10 seconds, then travel back. have a cookie!" type of quests. It's just time sink and not very interesting. And it's expensive in this game since travel is costly unless you want to RUN for those....and eff that.
Fates have been zergs. Mobs appear out of thin air and get summarily massacred. People are already forming groups to go around and mindlessly massacre since it's ok xp and token thingies for GC.
Dungeon bosses have been decent. The dungeons themselves couldn't be any more bland and generic. The somewhat sexy graphics of the world don't really apply in dungeons.
Levemetes get boring pretty fast but at least you can sorta/maybe/sometimes/not really ratchet up the difficulty (I never find them difficult on any setting, really).
I can only hope they're saving the best for last and that endgame instances and stuff are a little more compelling.
You sound as if you're trying to devour the world that's been handed to you instead of fitting in. Understandable, as I too was in this mode of play between mmorpgs. Once you find a game you're willing to "settle" in, none of them will ever sedate that gnawing feeling in your gut. Especially when your post sounds like you're just running through the motions...
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
This is where you're really showing a lack of understanding of what themeparks and sandboxes are. First, I will admit there is no real definition of a "true sandbox". Every "Sandbox MMORPG" that has ever released has not been a "pure sandbox" experience.
However, EQN is by far way more "sandbox" in many aspects, regardless of what you think a sandbox is.
-Player created content. Nuff said.
-Ability to drastically change the world through your actions (destructible environments, AI that changes and reacts to your deeds and actions, world events with multiple outcomes that have a permanent effect on the world, etc). Player actions change the world. This is a key sandbox feature no matter how you slice it. In FFXIV, killing that band of goblins has absolutely zero effect on the world. Succeeding at a FATE event has zero effect on the world. They just respawn/repop in a few minutes. Passing / failing events, quests, etc in FFXIV has zero world impact. This is the exact opposite of a sandbox experience and is exactly what EQN is going to have.
-Extremely Free-roaming. EQN is being based on Horizontal progression. There may be some some vertical progression (gear tiers for example) but they already stated that players will never "out level" content. You will never get some gear tear, or hit a certain level, or unlock enough classes and then steam roll a raid-difficulty mob solo like you do in vertical progression games.
Hell, you probably won't even be able to handle group content solo for that matter. The game is being designed with no "trivial content". All of the game world is going to be viable to play in, even after your characters is years old. Crush Bone will still be a threat to 3 year old characters.
In the end, EQN is not a "pure sandbox", but of course, no MMORPG in history has been. It's always been a mix. However, EQN is shaping up to be the most sandbox MMORPG experience to date from the information we already have.
Hope this helps you understand the situation a little better buddy.
Lack of understanding? No, I don't think so. I fully understand what I said. SoE is trying to redefine what a sandbox is so they can use it as a new hyped buzzword. And I don't agree with them. Landmark is an external tool that is not live in the game. It's affecting the world outside the virtual world and the content is introduced artificailly. It's just like any other content patch in any other Theme Park. SoE subcontracting out to the player base for content does not make it Sandbox. Regardless of who makes the content, the player's experience is still Theme Park.
And you also have a very one sided view. Destructable environments do not change the world......well, maybe for a couple minutes. In WoW, player actions change the world too you know. You are taking EQN features and totally inflating them beyond what they are going to do. You are going on and on about EQN and you don't even know what it will really be like. It hasnt' even been developed yet. I am sure the game will be fun. But you will see, your actions will have so much less influence over the world than you think they will. ANET made the exact same promise. But you will learn. There is marketing and there is delivery. They are never the same. Ever.
There is no doubt this is a Final Fantasy is 100% Theme Park. However, as I get up in levels, I am beginning to see where the handholding has entirely dropped off and the quest hubs have all but dried up. In conjunction with the multi-class system and the advanced crafting systems. I am finding myself with huge amounts of freedom to do what I want and how I want to do it.
This game keeps expanding and every few levels, they have been removing the training wheels. ARR has more options and freedom at higher levels than most other (if not any other) Theme Parks I have played in. One option that is not available is to simply run to the next quest hub. When I play I know I am in a Theme Park, but the "Feel" of it, the question of "What do I do next" is very reminiscent of some of my older games like SWG and AO.
(By upper levels, I mean 20, but in multiple classes)
No.
being able to go to whatever quest hub you want is not a sandbox feature, nor is it player freedom.
Now, that does not mean FFXIV has no sandbox features. Housing is a sandbox-ish feature.
Quest hubs, no matter what order you do them in are the least sandbox feature I can think of.
Quest hubs go away. Then you have to figure out for yourself how to level.
When you level can you change the world?
Will workers always be trying to build that farm?
Will the outpost always be under attack?
Will Sally always need to find her missing goat?
Will that outpost always stay an outpost? or grow into a town or get completely blown away buy the enemy.
Now granted I haven't seen much of FFXIV so I cant answer these questions. But the yes or no to these will decide if FFXIV has sandbox features or not.
This is where you're really showing a lack of understanding of what themeparks and sandboxes are. First, I will admit there is no real definition of a "true sandbox". Every "Sandbox MMORPG" that has ever released has not been a "pure sandbox" experience.
However, EQN is by far way more "sandbox" in many aspects, regardless of what you think a sandbox is.
-Player created content. Nuff said.
-Ability to drastically change the world through your actions (destructible environments, AI that changes and reacts to your deeds and actions, world events with multiple outcomes that have a permanent effect on the world, etc). Player actions change the world. This is a key sandbox feature no matter how you slice it. In FFXIV, killing that band of goblins has absolutely zero effect on the world. Succeeding at a FATE event has zero effect on the world. They just respawn/repop in a few minutes. Passing / failing events, quests, etc in FFXIV has zero world impact. This is the exact opposite of a sandbox experience and is exactly what EQN is going to have.
-Extremely Free-roaming. EQN is being based on Horizontal progression. There may be some some vertical progression (gear tiers for example) but they already stated that players will never "out level" content. You will never get some gear tear, or hit a certain level, or unlock enough classes and then steam roll a raid-difficulty mob solo like you do in vertical progression games.
Hell, you probably won't even be able to handle group content solo for that matter. The game is being designed with no "trivial content". All of the game world is going to be viable to play in, even after your characters is years old. Crush Bone will still be a threat to 3 year old characters.
In the end, EQN is not a "pure sandbox", but of course, no MMORPG in history has been. It's always been a mix. However, EQN is shaping up to be the most sandbox MMORPG experience to date from the information we already have.
Hope this helps you understand the situation a little better buddy.
Lack of understanding? No, I don't think so. I fully understand what I said. SoE is trying to redefine what a sandbox is so they can use it as a new hyped buzzword. And I don't agree with them. Landmark is an external tool that is not live in the game. It's affecting the world outside the virtual world and the content is introduced artificailly. It's just like any other content patch in any other Theme Park. SoE subcontracting out to the player base for content does not make it Sandbox. Regardless of who makes the content, the player's experience is still Theme Park.
And you also have a very one sided view. Destructable environments do not change the world......well, maybe for a couple minutes. In WoW, player actions change the world too you know. You are taking EQN features and totally inflating them beyond what they are going to do. You are going on and on about EQN and you don't even know what it will really be like. It hasnt' even been developed yet. I am sure the game will be fun. But you will see, your actions will have so much less influence over the world than you think they will. ANET made the exact same promise. But you will learn. There is marketing and there is delivery. They are never the same. Ever.
Sorry but you're just sadly mistaken. The dynamic AI, rallying calls and changing/shifting world combined with horizontal progression that encourages free roam is what makes it the most sandbox experience yet in an MMORPG. The dynamic AI especially, where NPCs react to player activity, change their behaviors and act out based on player input is clearly much different than ANET's dynamic event system, which was really just a scripted public event with extremely temporary results based on pass or fail.
The GW2 system was a huge improvement over standard MMORPG open world content, but it was basically a first gen attempt. This is not even in the same ball park with what EQN is doing.
The key thing here is that player choices and actions will actually change the world and the horizontal progression promoting free-roaming gameplay similar to what you get in games like Skyrim are essential for any good "sandboxy MMORPG". Those two facts right there confirm that SOE is not trying to change what "sandbox" means. They've basically covered all the bases.
Some people think sandbox = Free-roaming adventure. Horizontal progression delivers this in a huge way.
Some people think sandbox = Player created content. Landmark covers this.
Some people think sandbox = Players can inflict meaningful/lasting change on the world. Storybrick's Emergent AI, destructible environments and Rallying Call events cover this.
So rather, SOE is not trying to change what the term "sandbox MMORPG" is, but rather, they're going to be the first ones to give us a game that comes close to a complete sandbox experience.
I get a very "heard that, didn't see it" feeling from EQN. Instead of trying to prove how much of a MMO veteran I am - I'm just going to wait and see what they deliver. For now, FFXIV is the most fun I've had in a MMO in a long time.
As for the whole "emergent AI" thing, unless they discovered true artificial intelligent there will be a discernible pattern that you will react to. Just like the "stupid AI" of today's games.
I get a very "heard that, didn't see it" feeling from EQN. Instead of trying to prove how much of a MMO veteran I am - I'm just going to wait and see what they deliver. For now, FFXIV is the most fun I've had in a MMO in a long time.
As for the whole "emergent AI" thing, unless they discovered true artificial intelligent there will be a discernible pattern that you will react to. Just like the "stupid AI" of today's games.
FFXIV is a fun game, but my point was that it's not different from other previous themepark MMORPGs in any way. It's still linear, quest hub chasing, public quest, vertical progression themepark. Obviously that doesn't have to be a bad thing. The game, though not original in any way, provides a level of fun that is acceptable for sure. At least for me.
But it's beyond typical of theme park game play that we've seen over the past 14+ years.
As for your AI comment, that is a bit of a stretch for sure. The EQN emergent AI doesn't need to be Sky-Net level. It just needs to offer a way for players to actually change the world. Having mobs react to player and other NPC activity in a dynamic way will bring a new layer of game play that no other MMO has done. Sure, the quality of their work will determine how nice that extra layer is. But one thing is for sure, it's going to be a way for player actions to change the world, which is important.
Sorry but you're just sadly mistaken. The dynamic AI, rallying calls and changing/shifting world combined with horizontal progression that encourages free roam is what makes it the most sandbox experience yet in an MMORPG. The dynamic AI especially, where NPCs react to player activity, change their behaviors and act out based on player input is clearly much different than ANET's dynamic event system, which was really just a scripted public event with extremely temporary results based on pass or fail.
The GW2 system was a huge improvement over standard MMORPG open world content, but it was basically a first gen attempt. This is not even in the same ball park with what EQN is doing.
The key thing here is that player choices and actions will actually change the world and the horizontal progression promoting free-roaming gameplay similar to what you get in games like Skyrim are essential for any good "sandboxy MMORPG". Those two facts right there confirm that SOE is not trying to change what "sandbox" means. They've basically covered all the bases.
Some people think sandbox = Free-roaming adventure. Horizontal progression delivers this in a huge way.
Some people think sandbox = Player created content. Landmark covers this.
Some people think sandbox = Players can inflict meaningful/lasting change on the world. Storybrick's Emergent AI, destructible environments and Rallying Call events cover this.
So rather, SOE is not trying to change what the term "sandbox MMORPG" is, but rather, they're going to be the first ones to give us a game that comes close to a complete sandbox experience.
Hope this helps you.
-Can you show me what choices players will be able to make and exactly what specific impacts that will have in the world? Can you show me in specific detail how "Free Roaming Adventure" game play works for the end user and what the actual player experience is? Can you prove to me that Landmark is a sandbox and not a tool for players to create themepark content? Can you prove to me that Storybrick's AI will in fact be superior to anything else out there? I'll make a compromise, I'll call it a Sandbox,but only because that's what SOE will put on the box.And as far as the post directly above, its pretty obvious you have not really played FF14 very far.
Sorry but you're just sadly mistaken. The dynamic AI, rallying calls and changing/shifting world combined with horizontal progression that encourages free roam is what makes it the most sandbox experience yet in an MMORPG. The dynamic AI especially, where NPCs react to player activity, change their behaviors and act out based on player input is clearly much different than ANET's dynamic event system, which was really just a scripted public event with extremely temporary results based on pass or fail.
The GW2 system was a huge improvement over standard MMORPG open world content, but it was basically a first gen attempt. This is not even in the same ball park with what EQN is doing.
The key thing here is that player choices and actions will actually change the world and the horizontal progression promoting free-roaming gameplay similar to what you get in games like Skyrim are essential for any good "sandboxy MMORPG". Those two facts right there confirm that SOE is not trying to change what "sandbox" means. They've basically covered all the bases.
Some people think sandbox = Free-roaming adventure. Horizontal progression delivers this in a huge way.
Some people think sandbox = Player created content. Landmark covers this.
Some people think sandbox = Players can inflict meaningful/lasting change on the world. Storybrick's Emergent AI, destructible environments and Rallying Call events cover this.
So rather, SOE is not trying to change what the term "sandbox MMORPG" is, but rather, they're going to be the first ones to give us a game that comes close to a complete sandbox experience.
Hope this helps you.
-Can you show me what choices players will be able to make and exactly what specific impacts that will have in the world? Can you show me in specific detail how "Free Roaming Adventure" game play works for the end user and what the actual player experience is? Can you prove to me that Landmark is a sandbox and not a tool for players to create themepark content? Can you prove to me that Storybrick's AI will in fact be superior to anything else out there? I'll make a compromise, I'll call it a Sandbox,but only because that's what SOE will put on the box.And as far as the post directly above, its pretty obvious you have not really played FF14 very far.
Hoss, I'm deep into FFXIV with my squad right now. It's not a bad game, I never said it was, so chill.
1. Horizontal progression works for the user much like it does in Skyrim and Oblivion. You are not dictated by your level on what/where you can attempt to fight. You spawn into the world and you can run in any direction and fight what you want for the most part. Now I have no doubt that there will be some amount of vertical progression in the game, where you need some quality of gear to be viable to fight a specific boss, but for the most part, the entire world is open for exploration/combat right from the get-go.
Years down the road, most/all "old content" will still be viable and challenging to fight in because of the mainly horizontal progression system in the game. You never "gray out" content. You never get to the point where you can stand afk in a crowd of orcs and get a snack from the fridge. You will die.
This is the effect of horizontal progression on the end user. Skyrim does it in a different way (a single player way) where the mobs scale up to your current level. If you're level two, you generally run into, say, "Scrub Bandit lvl 2" when you're out and about. Come back to that same area in 15 levels, and you'll encounter "Tough Bandit lvl 17". It's how they put free-roaming into the game. The whole world is viable to play in even if your character is veteran. It doesn't pigeon hole you into a few "end game" zones / areas / dungeons. It's Free-Roaming.
EQN will be like this, but in a different way (has to be, since you can't scale mobs to player levels in an open world MP environment). So they're going to only have very small vertical progression increases in character strength, and a lot of horizontal progression (New skills, new gear, new spell..... different, but not "better"...).
Now contrast this with FFXIV, which is a non-free-roaming themepark, and you "gray out mobs". There is no point in fighting lvl 8 rats on a lvl 45 White Mage. You are directed in linear paths (level areas) and funneled down a path* to "end game". This is the exact opposite of "Free Roaming" and the exact opposite of what EQN is going to deliver.
You seem to think that having multiple linear paths some how constitutes "free roaming". It doesn't matter if there are 3 different zones for the same "level range". It's still a set of linear paths that dictate how/where you can progress your character and find challenging/meaningful content. That is absolutely not free-roaming.
It's nice! I like choices. But it's still a linear themepark, non-free-roaming game. That's all I'm saying.
2. As for your other points, you're basing your arguments entirely on the fact that you haven't seen it in action and simply being cynical. Obviously if they say one thing, and deliver something that is no where near advertised, then you would be right....
But you haven't seen it either, and what we have is what they told us. Based off what they told us, the emergent AI system where players can make lasting effects on the world and the NPCs in it is very sandboxy, and much, much different from anything else out there. Sure I can agree that they might* not deliver, but right now, that's not the issue. We're going off what they said and contrasting that to FFXIV, where your actions have zero effect on the world. Even if they delivered the emergent AI system poorly, it would still be vastly superior to what FFXIV offers in terms of players changing the world (Nothing).
There is no doubt this is a Final Fantasy is 100% Theme Park. However, as I get up in levels, I am beginning to see where the handholding has entirely dropped off and the quest hubs have all but dried up. In conjunction with the multi-class system and the advanced crafting systems. I am finding myself with huge amounts of freedom to do what I want and how I want to do it.
This game keeps expanding and every few levels, they have been removing the training wheels. ARR has more options and freedom at higher levels than most other (if not any other) Theme Parks I have played in. One option that is not available is to simply run to the next quest hub. When I play I know I am in a Theme Park, but the "Feel" of it, the question of "What do I do next" is very reminiscent of some of my older games like SWG and AO.
(By upper levels, I mean 20, but in multiple classes)
Honestly, that sounds like a lack of content. Aside from the quest hub grind, what else is there?
Repetitive leavequests, dungeon grinds, and killing waves of mobs in FATEs?
It's a heck of a lot easier for game designers to develop a handful of repetable quests and public events than it is to handcraft quest content that will take players from day one to the level cap.
Hoss, I'm deep into FFXIV with my squad right now. It's not a bad game, I never said it was, so chill.
1. Horizontal progression works for the user much like it does in Skyrim and Oblivion. You are not dictated by your level on what/where you can attempt to fight. You spawn into the world and you can run in any direction and fight what you want for the most part. Now I have no doubt that there will be some amount of vertical progression in the game, where you need some quality of gear to be viable to fight a specific boss, but for the most part, the entire world is open for exploration/combat right from the get-go.
Years down the road, most/all "old content" will still be viable and challenging to fight in because of the mainly horizontal progression system in the game. You never "gray out" content. You never get to the point where you can stand afk in a crowd of orcs and get a snack from the fridge. You will die.
This is the effect of horizontal progression on the end user. Skyrim does it in a different way (a single player way) where the mobs scale up to your current level. If you're level two, you generally run into, say, "Scrub Bandit lvl 2" when you're out and about. Come back to that same area in 15 levels, and you'll encounter "Tough Bandit lvl 17". It's how they put free-roaming into the game. The whole world is viable to play in even if your character is veteran. It doesn't pigeon hole you into a few "end game" zones / areas / dungeons. It's Free-Roaming.
EQN will be like this, but in a different way (has to be, since you can't scale mobs to player levels in an open world MP environment). So they're going to only have very small vertical progression increases in character strength, and a lot of horizontal progression (New skills, new gear, new spell..... different, but not "better"...).
Now contrast this with FFXIV, which is a non-free-roaming themepark, and you "gray out mobs". There is no point in fighting lvl 8 rats on a lvl 45 White Mage. You are directed in linear paths (level areas) and funneled down a path* to "end game". This is the exact opposite of "Free Roaming" and the exact opposite of what EQN is going to deliver.
You seem to think that having multiple linear paths some how constitutes "free roaming". It doesn't matter if there are 3 different zones for the same "level range". It's still a set of linear paths that dictate how/where you can progress your character and find challenging/meaningful content. That is absolutely not free-roaming.
It's nice! I like choices. But it's still a linear themepark, non-free-roaming game. That's all I'm saying.
2. As for your other points, you're basing your arguments entirely on the fact that you haven't seen it in action and simply being cynical. Obviously if they say one thing, and deliver something that is no where near advertised, then you would be right....
But you haven't seen it either, and what we have is what they told us. Based off what they told us, the emergent AI system where players can make lasting effects on the world and the NPCs in it is very sandboxy, and much, much different from anything else out there. Sure I can agree that they might* not deliver, but right now, that's not the issue. We're going off what they said and contrasting that to FFXIV, where your actions have zero effect on the world. Even if they delivered the emergent AI system poorly, it would still be vastly superior to what FFXIV offers in terms of players changing the world (Nothing).
As far as EQN goes, everything you say it will be, you have to preface with "I hope" And I have been through enough of these to know that it won't. Not entirely. If that's cynical to you, then "Guilty as charged" When it comes to SOE, I'll believe it after it's been proven, not before.
For FF14, Themepark? Yes, Free roaming? No, (Linear? No, that's where I disagree.)
As far as EQN goes, everything you say it will be, you have to preface with "I hope" And I have been through enough of these to know that it won't. Not entirely. If that's cynical to you, then "Guilty as charged" When it comes to SOE, I'll believe it after it's been proven, not before.
For FF14, Themepark? Yes, Free roaming? No, (Linear? No, that's where I disagree.)
Yes that is cynical because they showed us a lot of their concepts in action and some of the things they couldn't demonstrate in front of us are extremely plausible.
They showed us the destructible environments and Landmark.
They explained horizontal progressed.
These will be in the game as they showed/discussed without a doubt. The only thing that is left to be seen is how well they will put in the emergent AI, and as I already said, even if they deliver an extremely rushed, simplistic version of their planned AI system, it will still be leaps and bounds more than all other games provide.
You say "When it comes to SOE....." Ya, it's a huge company with a ton of funding, one responsible for a ton of great and innovative games, like EQ, Planetside, Planetside 2 and SWG. They deserve the benefit of the doubt, not the other way around.
As I already stated, FF14 is still linear. Giving you two or three linear paths to progress in a vertical progression game does not change the fact that it's still your typical linear themepark. I repeat, this is not a "bad" thing. The game is fun for what it is, imo, but lets not pretend that it's something it's not.
As far as EQN goes, everything you say it will be, you have to preface with "I hope" And I have been through enough of these to know that it won't. Not entirely. If that's cynical to you, then "Guilty as charged" When it comes to SOE, I'll believe it after it's been proven, not before.
For FF14, Themepark? Yes, Free roaming? No, (Linear? No, that's where I disagree.)
Yes that is cynical because they showed us a lot of their concepts in action and some of the things they couldn't demonstrate in front of us are extremely plausible.
They showed us the destructible environments and Landmark.
They explained horizontal progressed.
These will be in the game as they showed/discussed without a doubt. The only thing that is left to be seen is how well they will put in the emergent AI, and as I already said, even if they deliver an extremely rushed, simplistic version of their planned AI system, it will still be leaps and bounds more than all other games provide.
You say "When it comes to SOE....." Ya, it's a huge company with a ton of funding, one responsible for a ton of great and innovative games, like EQ, Planetside, Planetside 2 and SWG. They deserve the benefit of the doubt, not the other way around.
As I already stated, FF14 is still linear. Giving you two or three linear paths to progress in a vertical progression game does not change the fact that it's still your typical linear themepark. I repeat, this is not a "bad" thing. The game is fun for what it is, imo, but lets not pretend that it's something it's not.
With a proven history of screwing up every game it touches.
I'm sure it will be fun. But I am also sure it won't be what you think it will be. Well, who knows, Maybe it will. But there'll be no benefit of the doubt here. I'll believe it when I see it.
Let's just agree to disagree on FF14 shall we? It's clear we see "Linear" differently, Of if it is linear, it has multiple linear paths. Which kinda makes it not linear.
at lvl 43, I have not run out of quests once. (on my main class ofc)
Everytime you finish a section of storyline, youre directed to a new map, or town which opens a buttload of quests. Being a completionist, with huntinglog and company log, I dont see any way you could run out of quests, unless you completely skipped a part of the pve, like logs or fates.
Yeah, sounds like the hand holding is still there.
(SOE has) a proven history of screwing up every game it touches.
DCUO , PS2 , and Free Realms are not "screwed up"
but i agree, SOE likes to muck around too much on their older games (Pre2009)
OK, I'll revise my statement.
"Screwed up any games that might have actually been worth playing."
I installed Free Realms for my kids when they were younger and they both promptly uninstalled it for Wizard101
My brother who was a HUGE CoX fan (I liked it too, just not as much as him) tried DCUO and couldn't stand it. (Icouldn't get past 20 min of it.)
I never tried PS2, but I understand it's P2W based on reading threads around here and what you can buy/upgrade off the Shop.
Again, Can't say for myself as I haven't played it, but if that is true, I'd argue that PS2 would be "screwed up" in that case.
They haven't screwed up anything. I still play EQ and yes, it's different but it's still a great game, going on it's 20th expansion now. Lots of fun.
LA screwed up SWG, not SOE. They threatened pulling the SW license from SOE if they did not comply with their demands to change the game. So it's not even up for debate.
PS2 is a great game, one of the best multiplayer shooter games that's released, and it's absolutely not P2W. Every single upgrade in the game can be earned in a relatively short amount of time paying zero dollars. Even faster if you just sub the game and don't use the cash shop except for the free cash you get from your sub. New players with zero upgrades can still kill the most veteran and geared out players in the game. It's about skill, not P2W. It's actually one of the best examples of a proper F2P model on the market to date.
DCUO is one of the most profitable PS3 games on the market, and it's easily the best done super hero MMO on the PC. Though I didn't personally like it (I'm not big into super hero games) it is well done and it's popularity is extremely high for people who like those types of games.
Bottom line, the hate isn't warranted. SOE does a great job, and is often the innovator for the industry. If they say they can add AI that will react to player actions, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
FFXIV is linear no matter how you slice it. Not that linear is a bad thing. As I said, I am enjoying the game. Nothing wrong with a good ol' linear theme park save the world ride. But it is what it is.
Comments
Another area where SWG was different, IMO, is that your choices were a lot more limited. Since you only had 250 Skill Points to invest across the board, you had to focus on one thing and try to make your left over points synergize with your points in mastery. So if you were primarily a crafter, you couldn't really focus on mastering combat as well.
The solo grouping in SWG was a choice people made to level faster and it was the bad design of the game (small flaws SOE just seemed to fail to address) that encouraged that. I had my most fun when I was new and my friends were new, walking across the tall grass on Corellia only to have one of my friends whack a wild vynok nest and like 50 of them come pouring out. It was counter productive, but hilarious and fun.
When I think back on it; I often wonder if it is better off to go unwittingly into these game worlds and go ahead and be terrible at them, so long as you are having fun, or to read up on forums and learn how to play efficiently yet kill the mystery of the game and the hilarious failures that come with it.
This is where you're really showing a lack of understanding of what themeparks and sandboxes are. First, I will admit there is no real definition of a "true sandbox". Every "Sandbox MMORPG" that has ever released has not been a "pure sandbox" experience.
However, EQN is by far way more "sandbox" in many aspects, regardless of what you think a sandbox is.
-Player created content. Nuff said.
-Ability to drastically change the world through your actions (destructible environments, AI that changes and reacts to your deeds and actions, world events with multiple outcomes that have a permanent effect on the world, etc). Player actions change the world. This is a key sandbox feature no matter how you slice it. In FFXIV, killing that band of goblins has absolutely zero effect on the world. Succeeding at a FATE event has zero effect on the world. They just respawn/repop in a few minutes. Passing / failing events, quests, etc in FFXIV has zero world impact. This is the exact opposite of a sandbox experience and is exactly what EQN is going to have.
-Extremely Free-roaming. EQN is being based on Horizontal progression. There may be some some vertical progression (gear tiers for example) but they already stated that players will never "out level" content. You will never get some gear tear, or hit a certain level, or unlock enough classes and then steam roll a raid-difficulty mob solo like you do in vertical progression games.
Hell, you probably won't even be able to handle group content solo for that matter. The game is being designed with no "trivial content". All of the game world is going to be viable to play in, even after your characters is years old. Crush Bone will still be a threat to 3 year old characters.
In the end, EQN is not a "pure sandbox", but of course, no MMORPG in history has been. It's always been a mix. However, EQN is shaping up to be the most sandbox MMORPG experience to date from the information we already have.
Hope this helps you understand the situation a little better buddy.
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Actually the is a clear definition of a "True Sandbox" it's any application where you are free to build and destroy content,there are no rules only building blocks and a blank canvas to start with.
Where the waters get muddy is when you add the term game in because true sandboxes are not games even if you can have fun with them.
It doesn't help that industry journalists often use the term sandbox when they mean open world but there are no standards when it comes to games journalism(Hell there are barely any standards left when it comes to news and current affairs journalism now).
It seems sandbox is also now a desirable buzz word and as such marketers and fans will try to apply it to their chosen game to add hype and approval.
at lvl 43, I have not run out of quests once. (on my main class ofc)
Everytime you finish a section of storyline, youre directed to a new map, or town which opens a buttload of quests. Being a completionist, with huntinglog and company log, I dont see any way you could run out of quests, unless you completely skipped a part of the pve, like logs or fates.
Very true. A pure sandbox is not a game, because it has no set rules, limits or goals, which are key components to a "Game". A sandbox is more of a "toy".
But an MMORP"G" is a game, and therefor any Sandbox MMORPG can not be a pure sandbox.
Which was the basis of my point. There are some sand-boxy MMORPGs, but none of them are true "sandboxes". Everything I said holds true.
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I was kind of thinking the content becomes a jumbled mess right around the time you get your chocobo. I guess you could consider that a world wide open though.
My problem is that I find just about every form of content in the game to be bleh.
Part of the problem is that mobs NEVER (at least up thru 25) drop loot. Just occasional crafting supplies. Snore.
2.5s GCD doesn't help. Simplified class design vs simplified content in slow motion. Can I get a woot from someone who has trouble coloring between the lines? Amen little infant brother! Maybe they thought adding a second to every action you repeat a million times would slow down the leveling? Failure if so since people easily hit the cap in a few days.
Questing is ultra simplistic and generic. I'm really tired of emoting at NPCs and while kill 50 is over the top, kill 3 is just as over the top. The most annoying thing to me though, and this is something MMORPGs do to you too often, is the "travel across half the planet to do something trivial, like talk to an npc for 10 seconds, then travel back. have a cookie!" type of quests. It's just time sink and not very interesting. And it's expensive in this game since travel is costly unless you want to RUN for those....and eff that.
Fates have been zergs. Mobs appear out of thin air and get summarily massacred. People are already forming groups to go around and mindlessly massacre since it's ok xp and token thingies for GC.
Dungeon bosses have been decent. The dungeons themselves couldn't be any more bland and generic. The somewhat sexy graphics of the world don't really apply in dungeons.
Levemetes get boring pretty fast but at least you can sorta/maybe/sometimes/not really ratchet up the difficulty (I never find them difficult on any setting, really).
I can only hope they're saving the best for last and that endgame instances and stuff are a little more compelling.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
^ You're playing the game for the content, many of us play MMO's for group activities.
I think it's just not as rails as most other themeparks, and maybe that name shouldn't apply to every current themepark at all.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
You sound as if you're trying to devour the world that's been handed to you instead of fitting in. Understandable, as I too was in this mode of play between mmorpgs. Once you find a game you're willing to "settle" in, none of them will ever sedate that gnawing feeling in your gut. Especially when your post sounds like you're just running through the motions...
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Lack of understanding? No, I don't think so. I fully understand what I said. SoE is trying to redefine what a sandbox is so they can use it as a new hyped buzzword. And I don't agree with them. Landmark is an external tool that is not live in the game. It's affecting the world outside the virtual world and the content is introduced artificailly. It's just like any other content patch in any other Theme Park. SoE subcontracting out to the player base for content does not make it Sandbox. Regardless of who makes the content, the player's experience is still Theme Park.
And you also have a very one sided view. Destructable environments do not change the world......well, maybe for a couple minutes. In WoW, player actions change the world too you know. You are taking EQN features and totally inflating them beyond what they are going to do. You are going on and on about EQN and you don't even know what it will really be like. It hasnt' even been developed yet. I am sure the game will be fun. But you will see, your actions will have so much less influence over the world than you think they will. ANET made the exact same promise. But you will learn. There is marketing and there is delivery. They are never the same. Ever.
Leave Sally out of this!!!
Sorry but you're just sadly mistaken. The dynamic AI, rallying calls and changing/shifting world combined with horizontal progression that encourages free roam is what makes it the most sandbox experience yet in an MMORPG. The dynamic AI especially, where NPCs react to player activity, change their behaviors and act out based on player input is clearly much different than ANET's dynamic event system, which was really just a scripted public event with extremely temporary results based on pass or fail.
The GW2 system was a huge improvement over standard MMORPG open world content, but it was basically a first gen attempt. This is not even in the same ball park with what EQN is doing.
The key thing here is that player choices and actions will actually change the world and the horizontal progression promoting free-roaming gameplay similar to what you get in games like Skyrim are essential for any good "sandboxy MMORPG". Those two facts right there confirm that SOE is not trying to change what "sandbox" means. They've basically covered all the bases.
Some people think sandbox = Free-roaming adventure. Horizontal progression delivers this in a huge way.
Some people think sandbox = Player created content. Landmark covers this.
Some people think sandbox = Players can inflict meaningful/lasting change on the world. Storybrick's Emergent AI, destructible environments and Rallying Call events cover this.
So rather, SOE is not trying to change what the term "sandbox MMORPG" is, but rather, they're going to be the first ones to give us a game that comes close to a complete sandbox experience.
Hope this helps you.
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I get a very "heard that, didn't see it" feeling from EQN. Instead of trying to prove how much of a MMO veteran I am - I'm just going to wait and see what they deliver. For now, FFXIV is the most fun I've had in a MMO in a long time.
As for the whole "emergent AI" thing, unless they discovered true artificial intelligent there will be a discernible pattern that you will react to. Just like the "stupid AI" of today's games.
FFXIV is a fun game, but my point was that it's not different from other previous themepark MMORPGs in any way. It's still linear, quest hub chasing, public quest, vertical progression themepark. Obviously that doesn't have to be a bad thing. The game, though not original in any way, provides a level of fun that is acceptable for sure. At least for me.
But it's beyond typical of theme park game play that we've seen over the past 14+ years.
As for your AI comment, that is a bit of a stretch for sure. The EQN emergent AI doesn't need to be Sky-Net level. It just needs to offer a way for players to actually change the world. Having mobs react to player and other NPC activity in a dynamic way will bring a new layer of game play that no other MMO has done. Sure, the quality of their work will determine how nice that extra layer is. But one thing is for sure, it's going to be a way for player actions to change the world, which is important.
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-Can you show me what choices players will be able to make and exactly what specific impacts that will have in the world? Can you show me in specific detail how "Free Roaming Adventure" game play works for the end user and what the actual player experience is? Can you prove to me that Landmark is a sandbox and not a tool for players to create themepark content? Can you prove to me that Storybrick's AI will in fact be superior to anything else out there? I'll make a compromise, I'll call it a Sandbox,but only because that's what SOE will put on the box.And as far as the post directly above, its pretty obvious you have not really played FF14 very far.
Hoss, I'm deep into FFXIV with my squad right now. It's not a bad game, I never said it was, so chill.
1. Horizontal progression works for the user much like it does in Skyrim and Oblivion. You are not dictated by your level on what/where you can attempt to fight. You spawn into the world and you can run in any direction and fight what you want for the most part. Now I have no doubt that there will be some amount of vertical progression in the game, where you need some quality of gear to be viable to fight a specific boss, but for the most part, the entire world is open for exploration/combat right from the get-go.
Years down the road, most/all "old content" will still be viable and challenging to fight in because of the mainly horizontal progression system in the game. You never "gray out" content. You never get to the point where you can stand afk in a crowd of orcs and get a snack from the fridge. You will die.
This is the effect of horizontal progression on the end user. Skyrim does it in a different way (a single player way) where the mobs scale up to your current level. If you're level two, you generally run into, say, "Scrub Bandit lvl 2" when you're out and about. Come back to that same area in 15 levels, and you'll encounter "Tough Bandit lvl 17". It's how they put free-roaming into the game. The whole world is viable to play in even if your character is veteran. It doesn't pigeon hole you into a few "end game" zones / areas / dungeons. It's Free-Roaming.
EQN will be like this, but in a different way (has to be, since you can't scale mobs to player levels in an open world MP environment). So they're going to only have very small vertical progression increases in character strength, and a lot of horizontal progression (New skills, new gear, new spell..... different, but not "better"...).
Now contrast this with FFXIV, which is a non-free-roaming themepark, and you "gray out mobs". There is no point in fighting lvl 8 rats on a lvl 45 White Mage. You are directed in linear paths (level areas) and funneled down a path* to "end game". This is the exact opposite of "Free Roaming" and the exact opposite of what EQN is going to deliver.
You seem to think that having multiple linear paths some how constitutes "free roaming". It doesn't matter if there are 3 different zones for the same "level range". It's still a set of linear paths that dictate how/where you can progress your character and find challenging/meaningful content. That is absolutely not free-roaming.
It's nice! I like choices. But it's still a linear themepark, non-free-roaming game. That's all I'm saying.
2. As for your other points, you're basing your arguments entirely on the fact that you haven't seen it in action and simply being cynical. Obviously if they say one thing, and deliver something that is no where near advertised, then you would be right....
But you haven't seen it either, and what we have is what they told us. Based off what they told us, the emergent AI system where players can make lasting effects on the world and the NPCs in it is very sandboxy, and much, much different from anything else out there. Sure I can agree that they might* not deliver, but right now, that's not the issue. We're going off what they said and contrasting that to FFXIV, where your actions have zero effect on the world. Even if they delivered the emergent AI system poorly, it would still be vastly superior to what FFXIV offers in terms of players changing the world (Nothing).
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It really isn't like the typcial Theme park.
I mean, in the typical theme park you can actually log in.
Honestly, that sounds like a lack of content. Aside from the quest hub grind, what else is there?
Repetitive leavequests, dungeon grinds, and killing waves of mobs in FATEs?
It's a heck of a lot easier for game designers to develop a handful of repetable quests and public events than it is to handcraft quest content that will take players from day one to the level cap.
As far as EQN goes, everything you say it will be, you have to preface with "I hope" And I have been through enough of these to know that it won't. Not entirely. If that's cynical to you, then "Guilty as charged" When it comes to SOE, I'll believe it after it's been proven, not before.
For FF14, Themepark? Yes, Free roaming? No, (Linear? No, that's where I disagree.)
Yes that is cynical because they showed us a lot of their concepts in action and some of the things they couldn't demonstrate in front of us are extremely plausible.
They showed us the destructible environments and Landmark.
They explained horizontal progressed.
These will be in the game as they showed/discussed without a doubt. The only thing that is left to be seen is how well they will put in the emergent AI, and as I already said, even if they deliver an extremely rushed, simplistic version of their planned AI system, it will still be leaps and bounds more than all other games provide.
You say "When it comes to SOE....." Ya, it's a huge company with a ton of funding, one responsible for a ton of great and innovative games, like EQ, Planetside, Planetside 2 and SWG. They deserve the benefit of the doubt, not the other way around.
As I already stated, FF14 is still linear. Giving you two or three linear paths to progress in a vertical progression game does not change the fact that it's still your typical linear themepark. I repeat, this is not a "bad" thing. The game is fun for what it is, imo, but lets not pretend that it's something it's not.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
With a proven history of screwing up every game it touches.
I'm sure it will be fun. But I am also sure it won't be what you think it will be. Well, who knows, Maybe it will. But there'll be no benefit of the doubt here. I'll believe it when I see it.
Let's just agree to disagree on FF14 shall we? It's clear we see "Linear" differently, Of if it is linear, it has multiple linear paths. Which kinda makes it not linear.
Yeah, sounds like the hand holding is still there.
DCUO , PS2 , and Free Realms are not "screwed up"
but i agree, SOE likes to muck around too much on their older games (Pre2009)
EQ2 fan sites
OK, I'll revise my statement.
"Screwed up any games that might have actually been worth playing."
I installed Free Realms for my kids when they were younger and they both promptly uninstalled it for Wizard101
My brother who was a HUGE CoX fan (I liked it too, just not as much as him) tried DCUO and couldn't stand it. (Icouldn't get past 20 min of it.)
I never tried PS2, but I understand it's P2W based on reading threads around here and what you can buy/upgrade off the Shop.
Again, Can't say for myself as I haven't played it, but if that is true, I'd argue that PS2 would be "screwed up" in that case.
They haven't screwed up anything. I still play EQ and yes, it's different but it's still a great game, going on it's 20th expansion now. Lots of fun.
LA screwed up SWG, not SOE. They threatened pulling the SW license from SOE if they did not comply with their demands to change the game. So it's not even up for debate.
PS2 is a great game, one of the best multiplayer shooter games that's released, and it's absolutely not P2W. Every single upgrade in the game can be earned in a relatively short amount of time paying zero dollars. Even faster if you just sub the game and don't use the cash shop except for the free cash you get from your sub. New players with zero upgrades can still kill the most veteran and geared out players in the game. It's about skill, not P2W. It's actually one of the best examples of a proper F2P model on the market to date.
DCUO is one of the most profitable PS3 games on the market, and it's easily the best done super hero MMO on the PC. Though I didn't personally like it (I'm not big into super hero games) it is well done and it's popularity is extremely high for people who like those types of games.
Bottom line, the hate isn't warranted. SOE does a great job, and is often the innovator for the industry. If they say they can add AI that will react to player actions, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
FFXIV is linear no matter how you slice it. Not that linear is a bad thing. As I said, I am enjoying the game. Nothing wrong with a good ol' linear theme park save the world ride. But it is what it is.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL