Let me start by saying that I do pvp, when it is organized or structured. In numerous games I have logged in and pvp'd til I logged off. Structured pvp, at least for me, can be fun and your working towards and a common goal that could result in unique gear, buffs for you faction, titles and achievements. What is perplexing is the need for open ffa pvp. I mean what's the point?
I play games to escape reality, immerse myself in a fantasy world where RL problems can be forgotten, if even just for a moment. Why does the pvp crowd insist on having OWPVP in games. As far as I have seen what is the reward? In structured pvp at least your working towards the titles, gear, achievements whatever whereas in OWPVP what is the ultimate goal? As I have seen there isn't any ultimate goal... unless you count the ability to grief other players a goal.
In all the games I have ever played I have VERY RARELY seen OWPVP be beneficial. Its always some high level player exacting punishment on a low level player or under skilled player. Its seems to me that OWPVP is just a measuring stick for epeens.
Why cant we have a ffa OWPVP server and a structured pvp PVE server, like most games do it? This way you hardcore pvp'rs can gank each other til your heats content while never forcing your gameplay on us who care not to OWPVP. Please tell me what you proponents of OWPVP really need with ffa PVP on every server? Cant you guys just get on your own server and duke it out? I am asking because I really do not see why you feel the need to include us players who prefer spvp and pve content in your gameplay style. help me understand. Take care and Happy Hunting.
Frankly do MMOs have 2 problems with open world PvP:
1. Some players are total jerks
2. Levels works very badly in PvP games.
Most people who enjoy PvP prefer to beat hard opponents instead of hacking lvl 1 noobs that at worst could bleed on them. You could of course solve this by leveling down everyone to the zone like GW2 do in PvE but that is kinda like putting a bandaid on a shotgun wound.
In FPS games and even RTS games most players prefer PvP while in MMOs most people play PvE. The reason for that is of course that MMOs do PvE better. To have good open world PvP you need game mechanics that supports that. For one thing the gap between new players and vets needs to be a lot less.
Most MMOs just slap in some PvP in the last second and add some PvP servers when the game is almost ready while FPS and RTS games are designed to have interesting PvP from the start.
Note that this doesn't mean that MMOs should have FPS (or RTS) mechanics, MMO is it's own genre but for open world PvP to work they do need to put in equal work on both styles and creates mechanics that works for both instead of just making a PvE game, add some PvP and nerf the PvE classes.
Trinity combat is one thing that really works badly in PvP, fighting mobs and players needs to be closer if you want good open world PvP.
Humans are intellectually vastly superior to game AI. Current AI has the capacity of about an insect. Except for your first experience fighting the first few unique enemies, combating an AI opponent is boring because it is predictable. This will be the case at least through the end of this decade..
Smart(er) players seek a greater challenge, because it is much more stimulating for our (relative to AI) unbelievably powerful mental engines. Not only that, but in a worthwhile PvP game, you have to make decisions both better and faster than your opponent does.
We primates are social creatures by nature. PvP games, by their nature, put far greater pressure on the necessity of teamwork - since in most multiplayer games teamwork is the most important aspect of winning the game. Those CS kids who win international tournaments aren't just individually excellent players - they're excellent when they're working together in perfect harmony, like a well oiled machine. think Megatron.. or Captain Planet. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's why there's an enormous sense of pride and camaraderie in those gaming teams. Honestly it's something the average MMO player has never really experienced, because most MMO PvP doesn't catalyze teamwork in the same way. There's no risk and reward in all these themepark games.
In writing this, I begin to realize that most of the things that make PvP so much more interesting are subtle things, intangible, sometimes profound. You have to play them - and really try. Try damn hard. Accept failure and loss, but push yourself to be better. Practice. Then comes success, and (for most people) the fun.
Humans are intellectually vastly superior to game AI. Current AI has the capacity of about an insect. Except for your first experience fighting the first few unique enemies, combating an AI opponent is boring because it is predictable. This will be the case at least through the end of this decade..
Smart(er) players seek a greater challenge, because it is much more stimulating for our (relative to AI) unbelievably powerful mental engines. Not only that, but in a worthwhile PvP game, you have to make decisions both better and faster than your opponent does.
We primates are social creatures by nature. PvP games, by their nature, put far greater pressure on the necessity of teamwork - since in most multiplayer games teamwork is the most important aspect of winning the game. Those CS kids who win international tournaments aren't just individually excellent players - they're excellent when they're working together in perfect harmony, like a well oiled machine. think Megatron.. or Captain Planet. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's why there's an enormous sense of pride and camaraderie in those gaming teams. Honestly it's something the average MMO player has never really experienced, because most MMO PvP doesn't catalyze teamwork in the same way. There's no risk and reward in all these themepark games.
In writing this, I begin to realize that most of the things that make PvP so much more interesting are subtle things, intangible, sometimes profound. You have to play them - and really try. Try damn hard. Accept failure and loss, but push yourself to be better. Practice. Then comes success, and (for most people) the fun.
Here is the problem. Yes humans have the potential to be far better than any AI, however we are, by large, somewhat lazy. A lot of players don't want competition, they want victory.
Human players fall into groups when playing competitive games.
Group1 - The bottom of the barrel. The players who either through lack of ability, or lack of concern, have no intention of doing anything of merit, or competing. The fun for these players is in the taking part or killing a few hours until something they are invested in comes up. This group is unpredictable but is also no threat in a pvp environment.
Group 2 - The majority. Find something that works (either through basic experimentation or from external sources) and repeat it. If there is any variation it will be mild. When met with something new some floundering may occur or repeating the old systems until something eventually 'clicks' (or the external sources are updated and consumed), this will then fall into the repetition. This group is no more unpredictable than a scripted AI event, it is also almost everyone playing (though most believe they are far better than they are).
Group 3 - The elite. The ones people aspire to be like. They know why the systems work and how the systems work, they understand the subtleties involved and can adjust to new scenarios quickly while also probing their oponents for weaknesses. These are the top end of the game's playerbase and make up such a small percentage they are a rarity. Yet these are the players that 'player vs AI' arguements point towards.
In general it is true that players will be far more unpredictable than any AI however in many cases this will be in the form of 'why did he just do that?' rather than any form of amazing play.
In FPS games and even RTS games most players prefer PvP while in MMOs most people play PvE. The reason for that is of course that MMOs do PvE better. To have good open world PvP you need game mechanics that supports that. For one thing the gap between new players and vets needs to be a lot less.
Most MMOs just slap in some PvP in the last second and add some PvP servers when the game is almost ready while FPS and RTS games are designed to have interesting PvP from the start.
Well.. sorry, but you are wrong. Even in FPS and RTS games most players prefer PvE, most players play the single player variant only, and play barely or not at all the multiplayer, the pvp version of it. Simple put Call of Duty is more successful than Battlefield, and that is because of the single player part.
But.. you are at least right so far, that in RTS and FPS games PvP and even PvP only games are a lot more accepted and do have a large following. But simple put, that is mainly, because it is a lot easier to make a FPS or a RTS game in comparsion to MMORPGs, and withit a lot less expensive.. so experiements happend a lot earlier. (Counter Strike Mod as the first pvp only, at least as much as i know, and more commerical ones following)
That does not mean, that it wouldn't work with MMOs(i do let out the RPG part on purpose, because it is a different discussion how much such a game would be a RPG), it just did not happen, or was tried very often. Planetside is maybe the only one, and that one is far to similar to BF, and does not take full advantage of the massive persistent world and its possibilities.
There is not one PvP MMO taking full advantage of all possiblilties such a game could offer, and even more, not one really catering to the pvp audience. And pvp audience is in that case not really RPG players, or MMORPG players, it is much more a mix of FPS, RTS and MMORPG players. A lot of pvp players play games a lot more because they are PvP and not so much because they are FPS, RTS or RPG... and that at least it looks like it, don't have most designers and people realized. And the advantage of MMO(RPGs) is even, that you can mix all of those game play elements in one persistent pvp world.
About MMORPGs and PvP or PvE only. The point is, i do believe that both have a purpose.. usually if you add PvP in a PvE game you may have to have some compromise, so a pure PvE game could do PvE maybe better than a mixed game. The same is true for a PvP only game. But that is not really the important part for developing such a pure game.
The important part is development cost. If you want to have PvP or PvE that draws attention, draws new players to your game you have to do it at least half thought out, and that will you cost a lot of additional time and money, so focusing only on one part will reduce development cost, and could be additional better than a mixed game, with the drawback that you focus on only a niche, a specialist audience. And i do agree, some player, maybe even the majority, want to have both, so there is also always a place for mixed games.
But as see the industry and the today market, specialization, catering to specific audience, reduction of production value from multiply hundreds of millions to just multiply tens of millions will be a lot more common in the future, because a lot of niche audience are really large enough to make such a game profitable, and it may a lot easier to get those niche audience as to get enough of all audiences to be profitable.
Bringing all players to the same level (equalising differences) has been done in arenas, mini games and special combat zones. You could even do it across the server if you wished.
The problems of level difference in PvP do not mean there is any issue with the idea of PvP in MMOs. It is just how you handle it.
Let me start by saying that I do pvp, when it is organized or structured. In numerous games I have logged in and pvp'd til I logged off. Structured pvp, at least for me, can be fun and your working towards and a common goal that could result in unique gear, buffs for you faction, titles and achievements. What is perplexing is the need for open ffa pvp. I mean what's the point?
I play games to escape reality, immerse myself in a fantasy world where RL problems can be forgotten, if even just for a moment. Why does the pvp crowd insist on having OWPVP in games. As far as I have seen what is the reward? In structured pvp at least your working towards the titles, gear, achievements whatever whereas in OWPVP what is the ultimate goal? As I have seen there isn't any ultimate goal... unless you count the ability to grief other players a goal.
The goals depend on the game. In some games you can use PVP to secure resources, gain territory, etc. Than there is always the best goal ever: fun. Yes PVP can simply be fun on itself. You don't always need a carrot for something to be fun.
In all the games I have ever played I have VERY RARELY seen OWPVP be beneficial. Its always some high level player exacting punishment on a low level player or under skilled player. Its seems to me that OWPVP is just a measuring stick for epeens.
That's probably because you played PVE MMO's with PVP servers or poorly done PVP MMO's
Why cant we have a ffa OWPVP server and a structured pvp PVE server, like most games do it? This way you hardcore pvp'rs can gank each other til your heats content while never forcing your gameplay on us who care not to OWPVP. Please tell me what you proponents of OWPVP really need with ffa PVP on every server? Cant you guys just get on your own server and duke it out? I am asking because I really do not see why you feel the need to include us players who prefer spvp and pve content in your gameplay style. help me understand. Take care and Happy Hunting.
Because having different types of server either requires two types of game mechanics which developers will never write or one of the two servers would be broken. The PVP servers of PVE MMO's like WoW are usually shit because the only difference is that you can pvp against anyone. But the PVP itself is still meaningless and consequently it's all about the e-peen and griefing. On the other hand if you'd make a PVE server for a PVP MMO... well stuff are gonna break down. (imagine a PVE server of EVE, simply wouldn't work)
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Bringing all players to the same level (equalising differences) has been done in arenas, mini games and special combat zones. You could even do it across the server if you wished.
The problems of level difference in PvP do not mean there is any issue with the idea of PvP in MMOs. It is just how you handle it.
The crafters did that on my server in swg. I think we pissed some people off.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Well OP, like you, I use to ask the same question. Then I realized after much frustration, it's not the question but rather, why ask it in the first place. Don't get me wrong, please, I'm not saying being curious or trying to understand game mechanics and fellow gamers is a bad thing, but sometimes, we try to hard when the answer to your inquiry I suspect is quite simple.
My bro in law loves to play golf. I hate the game with a passion. Silliest boring game I have ever tried to play. Two seconds of physical activity, 3 hours of driving around a go cart. Really? So one day, I asked him why he loved it so much, and his answer opened my eyes, simple but to the point.
He said, "Because I'm different then you, and thank God I am."
PVP'ers like to PVP. PVE'ers like PVE. Thank God we are different. How boring would it be if we all liked the same play style.
I wish there were more OWPVP, I wish there were more PVE games. I wish we could all stop caring about the 'why' somebody likes a certain playstyle and just have fun with what ever game we are playing.
Life is way too short to understand why people like a certain gamestyle. To me, that is a fruitless waste of time.
Just have fun and leave the understandings of why to psychiatrists.
Well OP, like you, I use to ask the same question. Then I realized after much frustration, it's not the question but rather, why ask it in the first place. Don't get me wrong, please, I'm not saying being curious or trying to understand game mechanics and fellow gamers is a bad thing, but sometimes, we try to hard when the answer to your inquiry I suspect is quite simple.
My bro in law loves to play golf. I hate the game with a passion. Silliest boring game I have ever tried to play. Two seconds of physical activity, 3 hours of driving around a go cart. Really? So one day, I asked him why he loved it so much, and his answer opened my eyes, simple but to the point.
He said, "Because I'm different then you, and thank God I am."
PVP'ers like to PVP. PVE'ers like PVE. Thank God we are different. How boring would it be if we all liked the same play style.
I wish there were more OWPVP, I wish there were more PVE games. I wish we could all stop caring about the 'why' somebody likes a certain playstyle and just have fun with what ever game we are playing.
Life is way too short to understand why people like a certain gamestyle. To me, that is a fruitless waste of time.
Just have fun and leave the understandings of why to psychiatrists.
Golf is a mental game, you play yourself against the coarse... the person with the best golf swing doesn't win the tourneys, it is always the ones with the coolest hands.. (ie head)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
OWPvP worlds/games are the only thing left worth playing, imo...OP. If you really like matching your shiny's, classes, and spells against the evil dragon...then so be it. I have killed enough AI that it doesn't really do anything for me anymore. I also believe it has a lot to do with what you played early in your MMO career. I started with EVE online.
I thought this was how MMO's were. I played solo for about 2-3 weeks just doing my own thing...then I joined a group. Blah, blah, blah...after I took my first break from EvE I tried City of Heroes. Liked some of it, hated not being able to fight others. (Pre CoX days). Anyway..I then played Darkfall(the first one). Again, this was what I thought MMOs were supposed to be like...monthly sub, persistent world, good guys, bad guys, voice comms and learning new stuff all the time.
I learned that when someone talked smack..occasionally it would come back to haunt them. I learned what the difference between griefing and killing people was. I learned a lot of early lessons about MYSELF dealing with PvP long before I learned how to be an effective PvPer.
I think that plays a larger role than most people would give credit to. I guess if I had started out playing WoW, then moved onto some other PvE dominated MMO and played those for 5+ years, getting my ass blown up in "hi sec" space after just joining EvE, I might be upset too.
It really just comes down to perspective. If you truly like working towards a common goal/objective but want to do it in an online world with danger/risk involved...it takes teamwork and experience. Experience comes through losing or learning from someone that has already lost and is willing to teach you.
I guess that's why I like PvP games bc they allow ME to dictate what I think is right. If you attack my clanmates, invade our space, mine our ore, harvest our goodies...well I shouldn't have to ask permission what action I can take to resolve our differences.
It's just perspective OP. Some people will never like it. I don't know if I'll ever be able to immerse myself in a gaming world that wasn't OWPvP now. I can play any MMO for a while, but it will never be the same experience.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
OWPvP worlds/games are the only thing left worth playing, imo...OP. If you really like matching your shiny's, classes, and spells against the evil dragon...then so be it. I have killed enough AI that it doesn't really do anything for me anymore. I also believe it has a lot to do with what you played early in your MMO career. I started with EVE online.
I thought this was how MMO's were. I played solo for about 2-3 weeks just doing my own thing...then I joined a group. Blah, blah, blah...after I took my first break from EvE I tried City of Heroes. Liked some of it, hated not being able to fight others. (Pre CoX days). Anyway..I then played Darkfall(the first one). Again, this was what I thought MMOs were supposed to be like...monthly sub, persistent world, good guys, bad guys, voice comms and learning new stuff all the time.
I learned that when someone talked smack..occasionally it would come back to haunt them. I learned what the difference between griefing and killing people was. I learned a lot of early lessons about MYSELF dealing with PvP long before I learned how to be an effective PvPer.
I think that plays a larger role than most people would give credit to. I guess if I had started out playing WoW, then moved onto some other PvE dominated MMO and played those for 5+ years, getting my ass blown up in "hi sec" space after just joining EvE, I might be upset too.
It really just comes down to perspective. If you truly like working towards a common goal/objective but want to do it in an online world with danger/risk involved...it takes teamwork and experience. Experience comes through losing or learning from someone that has already lost and is willing to teach you.
I guess that's why I like PvP games bc they allow ME to dictate what I think is right. If you attack my clanmates, invade our space, mine our ore, harvest our goodies...well I shouldn't have to ask permission what action I can take to resolve our differences.
It's just perspective OP. Some people will never like it. I don't know if I'll ever be able to immerse myself in a gaming world that wasn't OWPvP now. I can play any MMO for a while, but it will never be the same experience.
That is why most play Battlefield 3 (up & coming BF4)..
Most MMORPG PvP'ers are just pimple-faced giefers that really have no skills, they just group gankers. That's why they can't play a real PvP game like Battlefield.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
WoW is the most carebear game in existence, especially for pvp. Remember World of Roguecraft? The guy runs around with no armor and a 1-2 damage dagger and rapes people. Sounds awful carebear that in a game that is 100% about gear, your the only class that can easily drop people with no gear.
I remember vanilla WoW, which was actually decent for world pvp. 20 v 20 fights at south shore were a blast. Then after BC, that ended that. 20 v 20 fights would end up with 1 max level guy with retarded gear coming in and ruining it. I remember playing a hunter back in vanilla. Hunter traps affected you no matter the level as well as most of your abilities. That of course changed because people moaned " i am level 60, a level 30 shouldnt be able to hit me", yea, thats carebear shit.
WoW is also notorious for being macro friendly. When someone can run around pressing 1 button and dominate people, I find it hard to label that "skilled".
Now Counter Strike is a completely different genre, but even CS can be awful carebear. If I dominate you I get better weapons making it even easier to dominate you. So the people that lack skill will also lack the equipment needed to compete...
Give me a game where tactics are as valuable as skill and gear. Where the underdog has a chance and isnt simply a guaranteed kill.
To call WOW "most carebear" is excessive.
WOW is clearly less casual than many other "PVP" MMORPGs, because most PVP happens in pop-constrained environment (BGs, Arenas). Gear is still a factor, so it's not 100% serious by any stretch, but it's more serious than open world PVP games.
If you think about it, and are honest, DAoC was/is way more carebear than WoW. At least in WoW you have many PvP servers on which you are no longer safe after level 20. In DAoC, it's level to max in total safety, enemies can't enter your realm.
So each time I see someone calling WoW "the most carebear game", I can't help being slightly amused.
And the problem evoked here is not so much the gear than the level differences, which are the reason why OW PvP will never work in a level based MMORPG built on the EQ/WoW clone model.
I stand by WoW being the most carebear. In DAOC you needed PvP ranks to be successful and you didnt get those pveing. This safe area allowed pvers to enjoy the game and never have to PvP. Nothing carebear about not wanting or liking PvP.
In my opinion, here are examples of why I believe WoW is the most care bear game:
1. LFG Tool: a tool to find you a dungeon group and teleport you to it (even if you have never discovered the dungeon). So in WoW after level 15 you can level to max and never even set foot in any area other than Stormwind. Lets just skip one of the hallmarks of mmorpg's, that being exploration...
2. Character Differentiation: When you see a level 20 warrior in PvP, he is exactly the same as every other level 20 warrior due to there being little to no ability to differentiate yourself from others. Spend statistics where you want, naa, the game handles is all for you. Oh no, you get the amazing difficult decision to pick 1 of 3 modifications to the same ability, oh what will I chooooooose...
3. Gear Based: Gear based progression has you focused on a single aspect of the game while also limiting your choices to simply: what am I going to wear. What am I going to spend my points on this level OR what abilities will I choose this level, hell no, players in WoW never get to experience this.
I love games where I can choose my own path, even within the class I choose. You spend your stats and make your character good at what you choose it to be good at. At this point, every time you engage another in combat, not only do your skill at playing the game matter, the choices that proceeded it matter as well. Maybe you created a character good at melee but neglected any counter to kiting, that should be your choice to make.
When the game spends your stats for you, give you only: what will I wear, to worry about and even counters that by giving you only 1 real set of items to wear, thats care bear. In my humble opinion, blizzards should half all the statistics on equipment and then let you spend the other half as you level, then allow you to choose a limited number of abilities per class, while creating modifers for each and every ability to change them in many ways. This way the player has choice and not every cleric you see even has smite and the smite that they may have could possibly perform in different ways.
Comments
Frankly do MMOs have 2 problems with open world PvP:
1. Some players are total jerks
2. Levels works very badly in PvP games.
Most people who enjoy PvP prefer to beat hard opponents instead of hacking lvl 1 noobs that at worst could bleed on them. You could of course solve this by leveling down everyone to the zone like GW2 do in PvE but that is kinda like putting a bandaid on a shotgun wound.
In FPS games and even RTS games most players prefer PvP while in MMOs most people play PvE. The reason for that is of course that MMOs do PvE better. To have good open world PvP you need game mechanics that supports that. For one thing the gap between new players and vets needs to be a lot less.
Most MMOs just slap in some PvP in the last second and add some PvP servers when the game is almost ready while FPS and RTS games are designed to have interesting PvP from the start.
Note that this doesn't mean that MMOs should have FPS (or RTS) mechanics, MMO is it's own genre but for open world PvP to work they do need to put in equal work on both styles and creates mechanics that works for both instead of just making a PvE game, add some PvP and nerf the PvE classes.
Trinity combat is one thing that really works badly in PvP, fighting mobs and players needs to be closer if you want good open world PvP.
@OP:
Humans are intellectually vastly superior to game AI. Current AI has the capacity of about an insect. Except for your first experience fighting the first few unique enemies, combating an AI opponent is boring because it is predictable. This will be the case at least through the end of this decade..
Smart(er) players seek a greater challenge, because it is much more stimulating for our (relative to AI) unbelievably powerful mental engines. Not only that, but in a worthwhile PvP game, you have to make decisions both better and faster than your opponent does.
We primates are social creatures by nature. PvP games, by their nature, put far greater pressure on the necessity of teamwork - since in most multiplayer games teamwork is the most important aspect of winning the game. Those CS kids who win international tournaments aren't just individually excellent players - they're excellent when they're working together in perfect harmony, like a well oiled machine. think Megatron.. or Captain Planet. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's why there's an enormous sense of pride and camaraderie in those gaming teams. Honestly it's something the average MMO player has never really experienced, because most MMO PvP doesn't catalyze teamwork in the same way. There's no risk and reward in all these themepark games.
In writing this, I begin to realize that most of the things that make PvP so much more interesting are subtle things, intangible, sometimes profound. You have to play them - and really try. Try damn hard. Accept failure and loss, but push yourself to be better. Practice. Then comes success, and (for most people) the fun.
Here is the problem. Yes humans have the potential to be far better than any AI, however we are, by large, somewhat lazy. A lot of players don't want competition, they want victory.
Human players fall into groups when playing competitive games.
Group1 - The bottom of the barrel. The players who either through lack of ability, or lack of concern, have no intention of doing anything of merit, or competing. The fun for these players is in the taking part or killing a few hours until something they are invested in comes up. This group is unpredictable but is also no threat in a pvp environment.
Group 2 - The majority. Find something that works (either through basic experimentation or from external sources) and repeat it. If there is any variation it will be mild. When met with something new some floundering may occur or repeating the old systems until something eventually 'clicks' (or the external sources are updated and consumed), this will then fall into the repetition. This group is no more unpredictable than a scripted AI event, it is also almost everyone playing (though most believe they are far better than they are).
Group 3 - The elite. The ones people aspire to be like. They know why the systems work and how the systems work, they understand the subtleties involved and can adjust to new scenarios quickly while also probing their oponents for weaknesses. These are the top end of the game's playerbase and make up such a small percentage they are a rarity. Yet these are the players that 'player vs AI' arguements point towards.
In general it is true that players will be far more unpredictable than any AI however in many cases this will be in the form of 'why did he just do that?' rather than any form of amazing play.
Well.. sorry, but you are wrong. Even in FPS and RTS games most players prefer PvE, most players play the single player variant only, and play barely or not at all the multiplayer, the pvp version of it. Simple put Call of Duty is more successful than Battlefield, and that is because of the single player part.
But.. you are at least right so far, that in RTS and FPS games PvP and even PvP only games are a lot more accepted and do have a large following. But simple put, that is mainly, because it is a lot easier to make a FPS or a RTS game in comparsion to MMORPGs, and withit a lot less expensive.. so experiements happend a lot earlier. (Counter Strike Mod as the first pvp only, at least as much as i know, and more commerical ones following)
That does not mean, that it wouldn't work with MMOs(i do let out the RPG part on purpose, because it is a different discussion how much such a game would be a RPG), it just did not happen, or was tried very often. Planetside is maybe the only one, and that one is far to similar to BF, and does not take full advantage of the massive persistent world and its possibilities.
There is not one PvP MMO taking full advantage of all possiblilties such a game could offer, and even more, not one really catering to the pvp audience. And pvp audience is in that case not really RPG players, or MMORPG players, it is much more a mix of FPS, RTS and MMORPG players. A lot of pvp players play games a lot more because they are PvP and not so much because they are FPS, RTS or RPG... and that at least it looks like it, don't have most designers and people realized. And the advantage of MMO(RPGs) is even, that you can mix all of those game play elements in one persistent pvp world.
About MMORPGs and PvP or PvE only. The point is, i do believe that both have a purpose.. usually if you add PvP in a PvE game you may have to have some compromise, so a pure PvE game could do PvE maybe better than a mixed game. The same is true for a PvP only game. But that is not really the important part for developing such a pure game.
The important part is development cost. If you want to have PvP or PvE that draws attention, draws new players to your game you have to do it at least half thought out, and that will you cost a lot of additional time and money, so focusing only on one part will reduce development cost, and could be additional better than a mixed game, with the drawback that you focus on only a niche, a specialist audience. And i do agree, some player, maybe even the majority, want to have both, so there is also always a place for mixed games.
But as see the industry and the today market, specialization, catering to specific audience, reduction of production value from multiply hundreds of millions to just multiply tens of millions will be a lot more common in the future, because a lot of niche audience are really large enough to make such a game profitable, and it may a lot easier to get those niche audience as to get enough of all audiences to be profitable.
Bringing all players to the same level (equalising differences) has been done in arenas, mini games and special combat zones. You could even do it across the server if you wished.
The problems of level difference in PvP do not mean there is any issue with the idea of PvP in MMOs. It is just how you handle it.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
The crafters did that on my server in swg. I think we pissed some people off.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Well OP, like you, I use to ask the same question. Then I realized after much frustration, it's not the question but rather, why ask it in the first place. Don't get me wrong, please, I'm not saying being curious or trying to understand game mechanics and fellow gamers is a bad thing, but sometimes, we try to hard when the answer to your inquiry I suspect is quite simple.
My bro in law loves to play golf. I hate the game with a passion. Silliest boring game I have ever tried to play. Two seconds of physical activity, 3 hours of driving around a go cart. Really? So one day, I asked him why he loved it so much, and his answer opened my eyes, simple but to the point.
He said, "Because I'm different then you, and thank God I am."
PVP'ers like to PVP. PVE'ers like PVE. Thank God we are different. How boring would it be if we all liked the same play style.
I wish there were more OWPVP, I wish there were more PVE games. I wish we could all stop caring about the 'why' somebody likes a certain playstyle and just have fun with what ever game we are playing.
Life is way too short to understand why people like a certain gamestyle. To me, that is a fruitless waste of time.
Just have fun and leave the understandings of why to psychiatrists.
Psychiatrists just prescribe a pill and say, "forget about it."
Golf is a mental game, you play yourself against the coarse... the person with the best golf swing doesn't win the tourneys, it is always the ones with the coolest hands.. (ie head)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
OWPvP worlds/games are the only thing left worth playing, imo...OP. If you really like matching your shiny's, classes, and spells against the evil dragon...then so be it. I have killed enough AI that it doesn't really do anything for me anymore. I also believe it has a lot to do with what you played early in your MMO career. I started with EVE online.
I thought this was how MMO's were. I played solo for about 2-3 weeks just doing my own thing...then I joined a group. Blah, blah, blah...after I took my first break from EvE I tried City of Heroes. Liked some of it, hated not being able to fight others. (Pre CoX days). Anyway..I then played Darkfall(the first one). Again, this was what I thought MMOs were supposed to be like...monthly sub, persistent world, good guys, bad guys, voice comms and learning new stuff all the time.
I learned that when someone talked smack..occasionally it would come back to haunt them. I learned what the difference between griefing and killing people was. I learned a lot of early lessons about MYSELF dealing with PvP long before I learned how to be an effective PvPer.
I think that plays a larger role than most people would give credit to. I guess if I had started out playing WoW, then moved onto some other PvE dominated MMO and played those for 5+ years, getting my ass blown up in "hi sec" space after just joining EvE, I might be upset too.
It really just comes down to perspective. If you truly like working towards a common goal/objective but want to do it in an online world with danger/risk involved...it takes teamwork and experience. Experience comes through losing or learning from someone that has already lost and is willing to teach you.
I guess that's why I like PvP games bc they allow ME to dictate what I think is right. If you attack my clanmates, invade our space, mine our ore, harvest our goodies...well I shouldn't have to ask permission what action I can take to resolve our differences.
It's just perspective OP. Some people will never like it. I don't know if I'll ever be able to immerse myself in a gaming world that wasn't OWPvP now. I can play any MMO for a while, but it will never be the same experience.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
That is why most play Battlefield 3 (up & coming BF4)..
Most MMORPG PvP'ers are just pimple-faced giefers that really have no skills, they just group gankers. That's why they can't play a real PvP game like Battlefield.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I stand by WoW being the most carebear. In DAOC you needed PvP ranks to be successful and you didnt get those pveing. This safe area allowed pvers to enjoy the game and never have to PvP. Nothing carebear about not wanting or liking PvP.
In my opinion, here are examples of why I believe WoW is the most care bear game:
1. LFG Tool: a tool to find you a dungeon group and teleport you to it (even if you have never discovered the dungeon). So in WoW after level 15 you can level to max and never even set foot in any area other than Stormwind. Lets just skip one of the hallmarks of mmorpg's, that being exploration...
2. Character Differentiation: When you see a level 20 warrior in PvP, he is exactly the same as every other level 20 warrior due to there being little to no ability to differentiate yourself from others. Spend statistics where you want, naa, the game handles is all for you. Oh no, you get the amazing difficult decision to pick 1 of 3 modifications to the same ability, oh what will I chooooooose...
3. Gear Based: Gear based progression has you focused on a single aspect of the game while also limiting your choices to simply: what am I going to wear. What am I going to spend my points on this level OR what abilities will I choose this level, hell no, players in WoW never get to experience this.
I love games where I can choose my own path, even within the class I choose. You spend your stats and make your character good at what you choose it to be good at. At this point, every time you engage another in combat, not only do your skill at playing the game matter, the choices that proceeded it matter as well. Maybe you created a character good at melee but neglected any counter to kiting, that should be your choice to make.
When the game spends your stats for you, give you only: what will I wear, to worry about and even counters that by giving you only 1 real set of items to wear, thats care bear. In my humble opinion, blizzards should half all the statistics on equipment and then let you spend the other half as you level, then allow you to choose a limited number of abilities per class, while creating modifers for each and every ability to change them in many ways. This way the player has choice and not every cleric you see even has smite and the smite that they may have could possibly perform in different ways.