Issue #2: Fates have rendered the game utterly pointless
Issue #3: Everyone has hit level 50, and as such, is picking up a craft
Issue #4: The duty finder has far too many DPS, and not enough tanks/healers to go around
Issue #5: The game is entirely too easy in all aspects
Issue #6: There simply isn't enough to do once you hit 50
Issue #7: The gil-sinks, gil-gains debate (which is covered by MMORPG.com already) and the gil-sellers
Issue #8: The staying power is not present.
1: I do find that this is true, well besides the materia melding that is, after spending time and Gil into 1 craft ( not lvl50) i quickly realised that crafting is useless.
2: Imo yes, but no one is forcing u to do them, they're a part of the game and u dont necesarely need to join them, i know i didn't, it destroyes a part of the game that i personly enjoy the most, the journey to 50, the quest, the running around. But i do get your point.
3: Hitting lvl 50 takes (not long) but also depends how u play, if u rush the game then yes, u'll hit 50 pretty quick.
4: as a healer i find it easy to find a party, but as a dps i've heard of q's for 50+- min's
5: true but then again the lack of skills and things to do are limited to
6: exactly, farming cm(dungeon) to get tomes to buy gear and that's it, and lvling second job is a pain in the behind without REPEATABLE quests.
7:i had the same concerns about the gil-sink and i also feel your pain with the gil-sellers
8: for me, they only need to add small things to make me buy gamecard. like repeatable quest's ( they should've different job/class story line's) more dungeons, more things to do.
overall, i had plenty of fun making it to lvl50 but now i'm here and i've done the primals etc i feel like i'm done tbh, i would love to test out more classes but spamming fate's doesn't really attract me at all.
but i'll stick around abit longer, no other mmo is...well intresting for me
IMO this game has more staying power than many others of its ilk to come out in the last 8 years. If you already finished all the content this game has to offer, than you will likely feel that way about any game you play.
I have a 25 Carpenter, 25 Armorsmith, 25 Miner, 25 Bontanist, 23 Lancer and 23 Guardian. I've got a LONG way to go.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Originally posted by Cymdai It isn't economically viable. We can make a poll and see if it's generally agreed upon. There's a reason nearly everyone in end-game is rocking full DL gear, and not full GS gear. Economically not worth it (especially since BC gear will dwarf it anyway)
Subjective is subjective, you can make a poll all you want, doesnt matter if the majority feels it's not econimically viable but you can't deny it's economically viable to someone. Geezergamer already proved that to you.
Nice shifting of goal posts there. When you can't prove otherwise lets hide behind 'all opinions are subjective'. Nice one.
I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
Because that is what was the actual discussion. Crafted gear beingequal and better than raid gear. Until OP was off tracked by 'subjective herp derp'.
I responded to his comment, I couldn't care less about what your goal post is even less about proving to someone who obviously disregards any proof provided.
The fact is that best end game gear comes from raiding. And that is what was OP trying to say. And there is no proof unless you make something up imaginary. Crafted gear is just a filler till you get all the DL peices and relic weapon.
And you don't even need that since you can do speed runs easily with class gear that you get at lvl 50 + weapon bought by GC seals and get decked in full DL.
Originally posted by Zalmon Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by BigdaddyxI am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
It is all subjective though.
For example, where does the best materia come from? Where do the best consumables come from? Where does the best crafting gear come from?
You keep insisting that SE's main focus is end game raiding yet the first patch is equal parts dungeons, raids, housing, and pvp.
If you think crafting is typical themepark filler and nothing more, I really don't know what else to tell you than you probably don't play mmos for the crafting anyway.
Originally posted by Cymdai It isn't economically viable. We can make a poll and see if it's generally agreed upon. There's a reason nearly everyone in end-game is rocking full DL gear, and not full GS gear. Economically not worth it (especially since BC gear will dwarf it anyway)
Subjective is subjective, you can make a poll all you want, doesnt matter if the majority feels it's not econimically viable but you can't deny it's economically viable to someone. Geezergamer already proved that to you.
Nice shifting of goal posts there. When you can't prove otherwise lets hide behind 'all opinions are subjective'. Nice one.
I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
Because that is what was the actual discussion. Crafted gear beingequal and better than raid gear. Until OP was off tracked by 'subjective herp derp'.
I responded to his comment, I couldn't care less about what your goal post is even less about proving to someone who obviously disregards any proof provided.
The fact is that best end game gear comes from raiding. And that is what was OP trying to say. And there is no proof unless you make something up imaginary. Crafted gear is just a filler till you get all the DL peices and relic weapon.
Again, I responded with my thoughts on his comment, based on his reponse to Geezer, he said that the armor was viable which he proved but not economically viable which I said it's subjective, is that wrong? I am not arguing what the OP is trying to say.
Originally posted by BigdaddyxI am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
It is all subjective though.
For example, where does the best materia come from? Where do the best consumables come from? Where does the best crafting gear come from?
You keep insisting that SE's main focus is end game raiding yet the first patch is equal parts dungeons, raids, housing, and pvp.
If you think crafting is typical themepark filler and nothing more, I really don't know what else to tell you than you probably don't play mmos for the crafting anyway.
For those of us who do, its an amazing mmo.
There we go again....
'i think crafting sucks / i think crafting is awesome' ----- subjective opinion.
'Best end game gears come from raiding and not crafting' ----- not subjective opinion.
All themepark MMOS release with PVP even if it is just in its most basic form. So if SE is releasing PVP in next patch doesn't mean that it is the focus. Same goes for housing. It is something almost every MMO releases because fluff and distractions are important.
So nope delayed features doesn't mean equal parts focus. Don't tell me later that i 'told you so'. But if you think raiding won't be the main focus then i guess you haven't really researched much into Yoshi and where he wants to take this game.
And yes crafting is just a basic filler and nothing more otherwise crafting gear would be on par with dungeon gear.
Only because you push few more buttons and combine number of materials together with nice animations doesn't mean crafting has somehow suddenly became relevant in a themepark MMOS.
Should this game be called " Final Fantasy crafting XIV "......Because no one ever told before I started that you BETTER like crafting or you will not like this game
Originally posted by BigdaddyxI am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
It is all subjective though.
For example, where does the best materia come from? Where do the best consumables come from? Where does the best crafting gear come from?
You keep insisting that SE's main focus is end game raiding yet the first patch is equal parts dungeons, raids, housing, and pvp.
If you think crafting is typical themepark filler and nothing more, I really don't know what else to tell you than you probably don't play mmos for the crafting anyway.
For those of us who do, its an amazing mmo.
There we go again....
'i think crafting sucks / i think crafting is awesome' ----- subjective opinion.
'Best end game gears come from raiding and not crafting' ----- not subjective opinion.
All themepark MMOS release with PVP even if it is just in its most basic form. So if SE is releasing PVP in next patch doesn't mean that it is the focus. Same goes for housing. It is something almost every MMO releases because fluff and distractions are important.
So nope delayed features doesn't mean equal parts focus. Don't tell me later that i 'told you so'. But if you think raiding won't be the main focus then i guess you haven't really researched much into Yoshi and where he wants to take this game.
And yes crafting is just a basic filler and nothing more otherwise crafting gear would be on par with dungeon gear.
Only because you push few more buttons and combine number of materials together with nice animations doesn't mean crafting has somehow suddenly became relevant in a themepark MMOS.
Because you said so right? If you did any research he said crafting would be just as important, not a filler like you said. Do you even look past anything besides your nose? For some people, crafting is the whole game to them. It might not be relevant to you but relevant to guys like foom and geezer, are they playing the game wrong? There's a reason he is providing all these types of things for people to do. Some people focus on Raiding, some people focus on crafting, some people only focus on PVPing, some people just want to decorate houses. Are you going to tell me they are playing the game wrong?
2. PS3 and PS4 fanbase untapped by 99% of other mmos. PS4 will look and run as well as High Settings on current PC. PS4 FREE upgrade without anyone that PS3.
3. Japanese Playerbase will keep this game afloat even if no one in Eurpore or NA plays.
4. Brand name + Good product (better than Brand Name + Horrible product)(see SWTOR and FFXIV 1.0).
5. Crafting is amazing.
6. Housing is DEEP which synergizes with crafting and RAIDING. You can't craft some of the best and awesome pieces without beating content. Primals drop items used for crafting (not in game, but confirmed).
7. SE is just like Blizzard. The game wasn't built with 3rd party investors wanting ROI (return on investment) at a certain time and for a certain profit. Just like FFXI, the plan is LONG TERM. It's to have a steady income for 10+ years. YoshiP said all this game needs is 400k subscribers to keep going for 10+ years. This game will get that much in JAPAN alone.
8. The PvE content is design exceptionally well. There are rarily any tank and spanks. Even the first boss in the first dungeon requires dodging mechanics and or add management.
9. End game is hard, and hardcore players love it. No one has beaten the last boss of Coil (turn 5) and we're a month and a half in.
10. PvP will synergize with crafting. YoshiP was hardcore pvp player in DAOC. HE made a priority to have meaningful and good PvP. It may not be the best, but we can be optimistic that PvP won't be an afterthought (like Illium in SWTOR). RvR is also on the horizon. PvP will have SEPARATE abilities from PvE so that you wn't have to worry about PvP effecting nerfs/buffs in PvE (i'm looking at you WOW).
11. Being multiple classes on one character. Longevity, for people not rushing to end game with only one class, no crafting, no gathering, and no reading of the story, this game is a casual players DREAM.
12. There is no sense that SE is nickle and diming you. You have plenty of inventory. No content is gated. Everyone has access to everything. Legacy playes pay $10 a month, and new players pay $12 for teh starter plan which is lower than the industry average (= FFXIV provides VALUE).
13. Golden Saucer with 3 minigames (chocobo raising, racing, card mini game, etc) Unconfirmed as to minigames but confirmed that there will be at LEAST 3 minigames in the golden saucer.
14. Promise of heavy content patches every 2-3 months with the next 3 content patches already planned and currently being developed.
Gw2 only other game with regular content patches, but for me, they're snacks compared to the heavy and fulfilling meals offered by SE. This game is not going anywhere and will be around for 10+ years. (and will remain subscription for that period of time just like FFXI).
Originally posted by BigdaddyxI am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
It is all subjective though.
For example, where does the best materia come from? Where do the best consumables come from? Where does the best crafting gear come from?
You keep insisting that SE's main focus is end game raiding yet the first patch is equal parts dungeons, raids, housing, and pvp.
If you think crafting is typical themepark filler and nothing more, I really don't know what else to tell you than you probably don't play mmos for the crafting anyway.
For those of us who do, its an amazing mmo.
There we go again....
'i think crafting sucks / i think crafting is awesome' ----- subjective opinion.
'Best end game gears come from raiding and not crafting' ----- not subjective opinion.
All themepark MMOS release with PVP even if it is just in its most basic form. So if SE is releasing PVP in next patch doesn't mean that it is the focus. Same goes for housing. It is something almost every MMO releases because fluff and distractions are important.
So nope delayed features doesn't mean equal parts focus. Don't tell me later that i 'told you so'. But if you think raiding won't be the main focus then i guess you haven't really researched much into Yoshi and where he wants to take this game.
And yes crafting is just a basic filler and nothing more otherwise crafting gear would be on par with dungeon gear.
Only because you push few more buttons and combine number of materials together with nice animations doesn't mean crafting has somehow suddenly became relevant in a themepark MMOS.
Because you said so right? If you did any research he said crafting would be just as important, not a filler like you said. Do you even look past anything besides your nose? For some people, crafting is the whole game to them. It might not be relevant to you but relevant to guys like foom and geezer, are they playing the game wrong? There's a reason he is providing all these types of things for people to do. Some people focus on Raiding, some people focus on crafting, some people only focus on PVPing, some people just want to decorate houses. Are you going to tell me they are playing the game wrong?
I am taking a very educated guess here.
Since beginning Yoshi is following the WOW model and we know how these things go. For crafting to be important it has to be on par with raiding gear. You must be crazy if you think that is ever going to happen. So how is crafting going to be of any importance when it is always going to be secondary to raiding gear?
Once again OP's point of relevancy wasn't about whether you like to craft or not. But he was making comparisons to end game dungeon gear and in that case yes crafting is pointless. As far PVP and housing is concerned i never said anything about people playing game wrong if they like these two features.
I am taking a very educated guess here. Since beginning Yoshi is following the WOW model and we know how these things go.
So WoW has crafting classes with their own skills,resource pool, stats, gear, experimentation, crafting process based on procs, rng and combos, and spirit bonding? No.
For crafting to be important it has to be on par with raiding gear.
Your opinion.
You must be crazy if you think that is ever going to happen.
Speculation based on an inaccurate comparison.
So how is crafting going to be of any importance when it is always going to be secondary to raiding gear?
Assumption based on speculation based on an inaccurate comparison.
Once again OP's point of relevancy wasn't about whether you like to craft or not. But he was making comparisons to end game dungeon gear and in that case yes crafting is pointless.
Except for the fact that raid gear drops still need crafters to meld materia into them in order for them to have truly better stats.
As far PVP and housing is concerned i never said anything about people playing game wrong if they like these two features.
You called them fluff and distractions, then said they were important. Not sure what your point is on that.
The next person that says "That's just your opinion..." can just shut up. That isn't an argument, a rebuttal, or anything else. It's a hollow, obvious, stupid statement that does nothing to further discussion.
Arguing that crafting is useful because of melds is like arguing that AK is fun because it drops tomes. Invalid, stupid, nonsensical logic. We can go over some basic facts here.
Fact: Crafted gear costs infinitely more than tome gear/dungeon gear.
Fact: Crafted gear, in it's HQ form at the highest level, is only on par with Darklight gear
Fact: Crafting from 1-50 costs more gil than not leveling a craft from 1-50
Fact: To craft end-game gear, you'll need even more materia (which you, at best, will make, but likely will purchase), effectively making crafting at end game impossible without spending even more time and money.
Fact: Even if you're a 100% dedicated crafter, you cannot make end-game gear without either 1) running dungeons/primals, or 2) buying materials. Each requires more effort than simply just running dungeons.
Fact: Darklight gear is all you need to run Bahamut's Coil.
Fact: Bahamut's Coil Gear > Crafted gear, period.
Fact: It is faster, cheaper, and easier to complete the game without ever touching a craft.
There's zero opinion in any of those points. Anything you say to try and disprove those statements is simply nonsense. Because of all of these facts, I feel confident in saying that Crafting is not viable, because it requires substantially more time, gil, and effort invested than merely doing PvE content for, at best, the same exact statistics on gear that you need to HQ to come out at the same level. If you NQ it, you actually spend even more time and gil for gear that is worse than it's level 60 AK dungeon gear counterpart. There are far too many reasons NOT to take that many risks, devote that much time, and that much gil!
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai The next person that says "That's just your opinion..." can just shut up. That isn't an argument, a rebuttal, or anything else. It's a hollow, obvious, stupid statement that does nothing to further discussion.Arguing that crafting is useful because of melds is like arguing that AK is fun because it drops tomes. Invalid, stupid, nonsensical logic. We can go over some basic facts here.Fact: Crafted gear costs infinitely more than tome gear/dungeon gear.Fact: Crafted gear, in it's HQ form at the highest level, is only on par with Darklight gearFact: Crafting from 1-50 costs more gil than not leveling a craft from 1-50Fact: To craft end-game gear, you'll need even more materia (which you, at best, will make, but likely will purchase), effectively making crafting at end game impossible without spending even more time and money.Fact: Even if you're a 100% dedicated crafter, you cannot make end-game gear without either 1) running dungeons/primals, or 2) buying materials. Each requires more effort than simply just running dungeons.Fact: Darklight gear is all you need to run Bahamut's Coil.Fact: Bahamut's Coil Gear > Crafted gear, period.Fact: It is faster, cheaper, and easier to complete the game without ever touching a craft.There's zero opinion in any of those points. Anything you say to try and disprove those statements is simply nonsense. Because of all of these facts, I feel confident in saying that Crafting is not viable, because it requires substantially more time, gil, and effort invested than merely doing PvE content for, at best, the same exact statistics on gear that you need to HQ to come out at the same level. If you NQ it, you actually spend even more time and gil for gear that is worse than it's level 60 AK dungeon gear counterpart. There are far too many reasons NOT to take that many risks, devote that much time, and that much gil!
Well that's on you, my friend. Your original post complained that there was nothing to do after 14 days. Yet you are hellbent on exclusively taking the path of least resistance to finish the game. Spending shitloads of time and money in game relying on other people for crafting components and melds - creates longevity, economy, and community. Ignore that and you end up making a thread like this I guess. So yeah man, you're right about everything. Those facts are irrefutable. So why am I still having fun? I must be some kind of idiot for investing all this time and gil into game systems that get me involved with other players the market, and the game world in general.
Because, despite all of those facts, personal preference is still the most important factor. Those facts are merely crushing the point about subjective opinions.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by BigdaddyxI am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
It is all subjective though.
For example, where does the best materia come from? Where do the best consumables come from? Where does the best crafting gear come from?
You keep insisting that SE's main focus is end game raiding yet the first patch is equal parts dungeons, raids, housing, and pvp.
If you think crafting is typical themepark filler and nothing more, I really don't know what else to tell you than you probably don't play mmos for the crafting anyway.
For those of us who do, its an amazing mmo.
There we go again....
'i think crafting sucks / i think crafting is awesome' ----- subjective opinion.
'Best end game gears come from raiding and not crafting' ----- not subjective opinion.
All themepark MMOS release with PVP even if it is just in its most basic form. So if SE is releasing PVP in next patch doesn't mean that it is the focus. Same goes for housing. It is something almost every MMO releases because fluff and distractions are important.
So nope delayed features doesn't mean equal parts focus. Don't tell me later that i 'told you so'. But if you think raiding won't be the main focus then i guess you haven't really researched much into Yoshi and where he wants to take this game.
And yes crafting is just a basic filler and nothing more otherwise crafting gear would be on par with dungeon gear.
Only because you push few more buttons and combine number of materials together with nice animations doesn't mean crafting has somehow suddenly became relevant in a themepark MMOS.
Because you said so right? If you did any research he said crafting would be just as important, not a filler like you said. Do you even look past anything besides your nose? For some people, crafting is the whole game to them. It might not be relevant to you but relevant to guys like foom and geezer, are they playing the game wrong? There's a reason he is providing all these types of things for people to do. Some people focus on Raiding, some people focus on crafting, some people only focus on PVPing, some people just want to decorate houses. Are you going to tell me they are playing the game wrong?
I am taking a very educated guess here.
Since beginning Yoshi is following the WOW model and we know how these things go. For crafting to be important it has to be on par with raiding gear. You must be crazy if you think that is ever going to happen. So how is crafting going to be of any importance when it is always going to be secondary to raiding gear?
So crafting is only important if you can make it on par with raiding gear? What if someone doesn't do any raiding at all, they are perfectly happy with their top crafted gear that they make, Is that not important to that person?
Once again OP's point of relevancy wasn't about whether you like to craft or not. But he was making comparisons to end game dungeon gear and in that case yes crafting is pointless. As far PVP and housing is concerned i never said anything about people playing game wrong if they like these two features.
I wasn't arguing OP's point, i was reponding to your post stating end game is everything and everything else is filler and fluff which to many people it's certainly not the case. When you make statements like that, you most definitely implying that they're playing the game wrong.
The next person that says "That's just your opinion..." can just shut up. That isn't an argument, a rebuttal, or anything else. It's a hollow, obvious, stupid statement that does nothing to further discussion.
Arguing that crafting is useful because of melds is like arguing that AK is fun because it drops tomes. Invalid, stupid, nonsensical logic. We can go over some basic facts here.
Fact: Crafted gear costs infinitely more than tome gear/dungeon gear.
Factually incorrect: I also level gathering skills at the same time. I have spend very little so far and have actually turned a profit selling crafted itmes and left over materials. It has thus far, more than paid for itself.
Fact: Crafted gear, in it's HQ form at the highest level, is only on par with Darklight gear
Factually Incorrect: Armor is better.
Fact: Crafting from 1-50 costs more gil than not leveling a craft from 1-50
Factually Incorrect: Didn't we cover this at point one?
Fact: To craft end-game gear, you'll need even more materia (which you, at best, will make, but likely will purchase), effectively making crafting at end game impossible without spending even more time and money.
Fact: Materia is a commodity. It can be made bought, sold and traded. Quite easily and profitably.
Fact: Even if you're a 100% dedicated crafter, you cannot make end-game gear without either 1) running dungeons/primals, or 2) buying materials. Each requires more effort than simply just running dungeons.
Fact: You have no business sense. In the time it takes you to run a dungeon, I'll have made many thousands in profits off the market and/or gathering.
Fact: Darklight gear is all you need to run Bahamut's Coil.
Fact: I can also do it in crafted gear
Fact: Bahamut's Coil Gear > Crafted gear, period.
Well, this one may be true, but this post was about how much easier and faster it is to get DL gear over crafted. Then you want to pull Coil gear into the argument? I assume you will proceed to tell us how fast and easy it will be to acquire Coil gear too? Since that was the basis of this whole argument. (time and money) This "Fact" has no bearing in your argument since it will probably be the most time consuming grind in the game Period. One that will be just as effectively undertaken in crafted gear as DL gear.
Fact: It is faster, cheaper, and easier to complete the game without ever touching a craft.
Fact: You are repeating yourself, we have covered this
There's zero opinion in any of those points. Anything you say to try and disprove those statements is simply nonsense. Because of all of these facts, I feel confident in saying that Crafting is not viable, because it requires substantially more time, gil, and effort invested than merely doing PvE content for, at best, the same exact statistics on gear that you need to HQ to come out at the same level. If you NQ it, you actually spend even more time and gil for gear that is worse than it's level 60 AK dungeon gear counterpart. There are far too many reasons NOT to take that many risks, devote that much time, and that much gil!
Your entire post was full of nothing but half truths and incorrect "facts". Mostly because your opinion is that crafting is useless since you never looked at the profits they can generate and thus pay for itself.
Alright man, whatever. You've got the blinders on, and you've said yourself that you do it for personal satisfaction. Dismissing every point around it because of your personal playstyle doesn't change the truth in those words. You pick the "gil argument" when it's convenient, and disregard the "time" argument when it's inconvenient. It's poor form, and I just can't be bothered to keep trying to explain it to you. Everyone of those statements was an irrefutable fact, and you tried to spin it like it wasn't, despite the most simple concept being: In order to make HQ end-game crafted gear, you need to sink the time into farming, leveling gathering and crafting classes, gearing gathering and crafting classes, farming dungeon/buying materials. And you dispute that, which is hogwash, because it's irrefutable unless you're buying your account. You are just too zealous to see that you're missing the points because you don't agree with the message.
I'm not gonna continue arguing with you. It's fruitless, and is leading to thread sabotage. I'm really glad you enjoy crafting though.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Since beginning Yoshi is following the WOW model and we know how these things go. For crafting to be important it has to be on par with raiding gear. You must be crazy if you think that is ever going to happen. So how is crafting going to be of any importance when it is always going to be secondary to raiding gear?
So crafting is only important if you can make it on par with raiding gear? What if someone doesn't do any raiding at all, they are perfectly happy with their top crafted gear that they make, Is that not important to that person?
Once again OP's point of relevancy wasn't about whether you like to craft or not. But he was making comparisons to end game dungeon gear and in that case yes crafting is pointless. As far PVP and housing is concerned i never said anything about people playing game wrong if they like these two features.
I wasn't arguing OP's point, i was reponding to your post stating end game is everything and everything else is filler and fluff which to many people it's certainly not the case. When you make statements like that, you most definitely implying that they're playing the game wrong.
For the last time. OP wasn't talking about your 'feelings' regarding crafting but comparisons were being made to end game raid gear compared to which crafted gear is inferior. We are not discussing your personal 'satisfaction' but how crafted gear stands in comparison to raid gear.
Content can be filler / fluff and still be end game but that doens't mean its the 'focus'. Since the person i quoted wrote that the next patch is equal parts focus even though PVP, housing etc are the most basic features almost every MMO incorporates.
I think it's going to fail.......mmm familiar mmo forum ground here. And of course it kicks off the yes/no posts.
The boring bit is that it time will tell - give it 6-9 months, then everyone will have the answer.
And the path to success is probably equally predictable to state:
1. Broad range of end content.
2. Frequent updates
3. Good support
Sounds pretty simple - but it isn't, especially item 1. The majority of game developers struggle to provide a broad enough end game interest. Hardcore pve, hardcore pvp, dedicated crafters, altaholics, lore addicts - And all the more casual player types of these disciplines.
Should be interesting to see how it goes on, especially when the next couple of major mmo's hit the streets.
The only comment I can make on this thread to do with crafting, is, I have a lot more money as a crafter, then my FC members, who don t craft. I ve also tanked everything but Coil as a crated gear wearing warrior, without a problem. Crafting is an excellent way to make money, and be self sufficient. As well, theres already talk of more importance for it in the upcoming patches. On top of that the end game RvR, "Frontlines", crafting apparently will have a big role in that. On odd thing, is Im not a big crafter in games, but for some reason, I can t stop
Alright man, whatever. You've got the blinders on, and you've said yourself that you do it for personal satisfaction. Dismissing every point around it because of your personal playstyle doesn't change the truth in those words. You pick the "gil argument" when it's convenient, and disregard the "time" argument when it's inconvenient. It's poor form, and I just can't be bothered to keep trying to explain it to you. Everyone of those statements was an irrefutable fact, and you tried to spin it like it wasn't, despite the most simple concept being: In order to make HQ end-game crafted gear, you need to sink the time into farming, leveling gathering and crafting classes, gearing gathering and crafting classes, farming dungeon/buying materials. And you dispute that, which is hogwash, because it's irrefutable unless you're buying your account. You are just too zealous to see that you're missing the points because you don't agree with the message.
I'm not gonna continue arguing with you. It's fruitless, and is leading to thread sabotage. I'm really glad you enjoy crafting though.
Let me explain something here. The reason why it seems like you aren't able to win the argument with "Facts" is because you either aren't presenting all of the facts or you have blended the facts with your own opinions.
If Item A is more expensive than Item B then that is a fact. But you have taken that fact and merged your opinions into it by saying Since Item A costs more money than Item B but since Item B doesn't give as anything more than Item A then it's a fact that Item A is more valuable. But the value that Item B delivers, is ultimately subjective. You really need to learn what facts are and what subjectivity is because you are clearly confused.
And with that in mind, I am ultimately going to agree with you on one thing you have said. There is little point in continuing to argue any further.
you get weird people,I heard on a podcast that their were people playing the broken previous ffxiv online till it was taken dawn and paying obsiously a subscription.
Let me explain something here. The reason why it seems like you aren't able to win the argument with "Facts" is because you either aren't presenting all of the facts or you have blended the facts with your own opinions.
If Item A is more expensive than Item B then that is a fact. But you have taken that fact and merged your opinions into it by saying Since Item A costs more money than Item B but since Item B doesn't give as anything more than Item A then it's a fact that Item A is more valuable. But the value that Item B delivers, is ultimately subjective. You really need to learn what facts are and what subjectivity is because you are clearly confused.
And with that in mind, I am ultimately going to agree with you on one thing you have said. There is little point in continuing to argue any further.
No, I can't "win" because I'm talking to someone who doesn't accept that they're wrong. You have an incredible personal bias that crafting is worth it; you can re-read all your posts in the thread to see it. My argument has been that it simply isn't worth the cost, of time, gil, and effort, to achieve end-game crafting, because the returns are diminishing and the gains are not aligned with the initial cost. I don't hate crafting, I don't think crafting has no value, but I don't think it's worth pursuing for any reason beyond personal satisfaction. I have driven that point from 3 places:
1) Time required to level the craft (and in your case, gathering classes as well) and acquire mats for the synths
2) Gil required to level the craft + gear the craft well enough to be able to make said gear
3) Effort required to create comparable crafted gear vs. merely doing PvE dungeons.
You keep twisting it and making it seem like I'm the one being subjective here, when you proved yourself that, statistically, crafted gear is IDENTICAL to dungeon gear. On an HQ level it's identical, and NQ crafted end-game gear was inferior. In other words, if you do NOT successfully HQ end game gear, you're taking roughly a 500k gil loss on any given piece. This is absolutely factual. Your argument was that it was worth it because you liked making it for yourself, but at no point did I mention caring about personal preference. Based solely on a time + gil + effort, I pointed out that it's faster, cheaper, and easier to get dungeon gear. Somehow, you try to argue it because of your own personal enjoyment of crafting. But basic, fundamental, elementary educated people can understand that it takes longer to level a craft from 1-50, a combat class from 1-50, and a gathering class from 1-50 (mind you: this is assuming you NEVER run dungeons, make profits, and buy all your materials for end-game gear, *AND* farm all your own materials via gathering as you claim to have done) than it does to level a combat class from 1-50, and run dungeons to get some gear that is, as stated before identical to the end-game crafted gear. Yet you sit in your corner going "Nope, that's just your opinion. It's worth it.", when what you should be saying "It's worth it to me."
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Let me explain something here. The reason why it seems like you aren't able to win the argument with "Facts" is because you either aren't presenting all of the facts or you have blended the facts with your own opinions.
If Item A is more expensive than Item B then that is a fact. But you have taken that fact and merged your opinions into it by saying Since Item A costs more money than Item B but since Item B doesn't give as anything more than Item A then it's a fact that Item A is more valuable. But the value that Item B delivers, is ultimately subjective. You really need to learn what facts are and what subjectivity is because you are clearly confused.
And with that in mind, I am ultimately going to agree with you on one thing you have said. There is little point in continuing to argue any further.
No, I can't "win" because I'm talking to someone who doesn't accept that they're wrong. You have an incredible personal bias that crafting is worth it; you can re-read all your posts in the thread to see it. My argument has been that it simply isn't worth the cost, of time, gil, and effort, to achieve end-game crafting, because the returns are diminishing and the gains are not aligned with the initial cost. I don't hate crafting, I don't think crafting has no value, but I don't think it's worth pursuing for any reason beyond personal satisfaction. I have driven that point from 3 places:
1) Time required to level the craft (and in your case, gathering classes as well) and acquire mats for the synths
2) Gil required to level the craft + gear the craft well enough to be able to make said gear
3) Effort required to create comparable crafted gear vs. merely doing PvE dungeons.
You keep twisting it and making it seem like I'm the one being subjective here, when you proved yourself that, statistically, crafted gear is IDENTICAL to dungeon gear. On an HQ level it's identical, and NQ crafted end-game gear was inferior. In other words, if you do NOT successfully HQ end game gear, you're taking roughly a 500k gil loss on any given piece. This is absolutely factual. Your argument was that it was worth it because you liked making it for yourself, but at no point did I mention caring about personal preference. Based solely on a time + gil + effort, I pointed out that it's faster, cheaper, and easier to get dungeon gear. Somehow, you try to argue it because of your own personal enjoyment of crafting. But basic, fundamental, elementary educated people can understand that it takes longer to level a craft from 1-50, a combat class from 1-50, and a gathering class from 1-50 (mind you: this is assuming you NEVER run dungeons, make profits, and buy all your materials for end-game gear, *AND* farm all your own materials via gathering as you claim to have done) than it does to level a combat class from 1-50, and run dungeons to get some gear that is, as stated before identical to the end-game crafted gear. Yet you sit in your corner going "Nope, that's just your opinion. It's worth it.", when what you should be saying "It's worth it to me."
Had you posted your last sentence in this post back on page 27, this would have ended right there and then instead of now.
Comments
Issue #1: Crafting is utterly useless
Issue #2: Fates have rendered the game utterly pointless
Issue #3: Everyone has hit level 50, and as such, is picking up a craft
Issue #4: The duty finder has far too many DPS, and not enough tanks/healers to go around
Issue #5: The game is entirely too easy in all aspects
Issue #6: There simply isn't enough to do once you hit 50
Issue #7: The gil-sinks, gil-gains debate (which is covered by MMORPG.com already) and the gil-sellers
Issue #8: The staying power is not present.
1: I do find that this is true, well besides the materia melding that is, after spending time and Gil into 1 craft ( not lvl50) i quickly realised that crafting is useless.
2: Imo yes, but no one is forcing u to do them, they're a part of the game and u dont necesarely need to join them, i know i didn't, it destroyes a part of the game that i personly enjoy the most, the journey to 50, the quest, the running around. But i do get your point.
3: Hitting lvl 50 takes (not long) but also depends how u play, if u rush the game then yes, u'll hit 50 pretty quick.
4: as a healer i find it easy to find a party, but as a dps i've heard of q's for 50+- min's
5: true but then again the lack of skills and things to do are limited to
6: exactly, farming cm(dungeon) to get tomes to buy gear and that's it, and lvling second job is a pain in the behind without REPEATABLE quests.
7:i had the same concerns about the gil-sink and i also feel your pain with the gil-sellers
8: for me, they only need to add small things to make me buy gamecard. like repeatable quest's ( they should've different job/class story line's) more dungeons, more things to do.
overall, i had plenty of fun making it to lvl50 but now i'm here and i've done the primals etc i feel like i'm done tbh, i would love to test out more classes but spamming fate's doesn't really attract me at all.
but i'll stick around abit longer, no other mmo is...well intresting for me
IMO this game has more staying power than many others of its ilk to come out in the last 8 years. If you already finished all the content this game has to offer, than you will likely feel that way about any game you play.
I have a 25 Carpenter, 25 Armorsmith, 25 Miner, 25 Bontanist, 23 Lancer and 23 Guardian. I've got a LONG way to go.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
The fact is that best end game gear comes from raiding. And that is what was OP trying to say. And there is no proof unless you make something up imaginary. Crafted gear is just a filler till you get all the DL peices and relic weapon.
And you don't even need that since you can do speed runs easily with class gear that you get at lvl 50 + weapon bought by GC seals and get decked in full DL.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
It is all subjective though.
For example, where does the best materia come from?
Where do the best consumables come from?
Where does the best crafting gear come from?
You keep insisting that SE's main focus is end game raiding yet the first patch is equal parts dungeons, raids, housing, and pvp.
If you think crafting is typical themepark filler and nothing more, I really don't know what else to tell you than you probably don't play mmos for the crafting anyway.
For those of us who do, its an amazing mmo.
Again, I responded with my thoughts on his comment, based on his reponse to Geezer, he said that the armor was viable which he proved but not economically viable which I said it's subjective, is that wrong? I am not arguing what the OP is trying to say.
There we go again....
'i think crafting sucks / i think crafting is awesome' ----- subjective opinion.
'Best end game gears come from raiding and not crafting' ----- not subjective opinion.
All themepark MMOS release with PVP even if it is just in its most basic form. So if SE is releasing PVP in next patch doesn't mean that it is the focus. Same goes for housing. It is something almost every MMO releases because fluff and distractions are important.
So nope delayed features doesn't mean equal parts focus. Don't tell me later that i 'told you so'. But if you think raiding won't be the main focus then i guess you haven't really researched much into Yoshi and where he wants to take this game.
And yes crafting is just a basic filler and nothing more otherwise crafting gear would be on par with dungeon gear.
Only because you push few more buttons and combine number of materials together with nice animations doesn't mean crafting has somehow suddenly became relevant in a themepark MMOS.
Almost 300 post
100 say I don't like crafting
100 say you better like crafting
100 just stoped playing
Should this game be called " Final Fantasy crafting XIV "......Because no one ever told before I started that you BETTER like crafting or you will not like this game
Because you said so right? If you did any research he said crafting would be just as important, not a filler like you said. Do you even look past anything besides your nose? For some people, crafting is the whole game to them. It might not be relevant to you but relevant to guys like foom and geezer, are they playing the game wrong? There's a reason he is providing all these types of things for people to do. Some people focus on Raiding, some people focus on crafting, some people only focus on PVPing, some people just want to decorate houses. Are you going to tell me they are playing the game wrong?
My opinion on why this game has staying power.
1. Best console controls of any MMO.
2. PS3 and PS4 fanbase untapped by 99% of other mmos. PS4 will look and run as well as High Settings on current PC. PS4 FREE upgrade without anyone that PS3.
3. Japanese Playerbase will keep this game afloat even if no one in Eurpore or NA plays.
4. Brand name + Good product (better than Brand Name + Horrible product)(see SWTOR and FFXIV 1.0).
5. Crafting is amazing.
6. Housing is DEEP which synergizes with crafting and RAIDING. You can't craft some of the best and awesome pieces without beating content. Primals drop items used for crafting (not in game, but confirmed).
7. SE is just like Blizzard. The game wasn't built with 3rd party investors wanting ROI (return on investment) at a certain time and for a certain profit. Just like FFXI, the plan is LONG TERM. It's to have a steady income for 10+ years. YoshiP said all this game needs is 400k subscribers to keep going for 10+ years. This game will get that much in JAPAN alone.
8. The PvE content is design exceptionally well. There are rarily any tank and spanks. Even the first boss in the first dungeon requires dodging mechanics and or add management.
9. End game is hard, and hardcore players love it. No one has beaten the last boss of Coil (turn 5) and we're a month and a half in.
10. PvP will synergize with crafting. YoshiP was hardcore pvp player in DAOC. HE made a priority to have meaningful and good PvP. It may not be the best, but we can be optimistic that PvP won't be an afterthought (like Illium in SWTOR). RvR is also on the horizon. PvP will have SEPARATE abilities from PvE so that you wn't have to worry about PvP effecting nerfs/buffs in PvE (i'm looking at you WOW).
11. Being multiple classes on one character. Longevity, for people not rushing to end game with only one class, no crafting, no gathering, and no reading of the story, this game is a casual players DREAM.
12. There is no sense that SE is nickle and diming you. You have plenty of inventory. No content is gated. Everyone has access to everything. Legacy playes pay $10 a month, and new players pay $12 for teh starter plan which is lower than the industry average (= FFXIV provides VALUE).
13. Golden Saucer with 3 minigames (chocobo raising, racing, card mini game, etc) Unconfirmed as to minigames but confirmed that there will be at LEAST 3 minigames in the golden saucer.
14. Promise of heavy content patches every 2-3 months with the next 3 content patches already planned and currently being developed.
Gw2 only other game with regular content patches, but for me, they're snacks compared to the heavy and fulfilling meals offered by SE. This game is not going anywhere and will be around for 10+ years. (and will remain subscription for that period of time just like FFXI).
I've found my home, I hope you guys find yours.
I am taking a very educated guess here.
Since beginning Yoshi is following the WOW model and we know how these things go. For crafting to be important it has to be on par with raiding gear. You must be crazy if you think that is ever going to happen. So how is crafting going to be of any importance when it is always going to be secondary to raiding gear?
Once again OP's point of relevancy wasn't about whether you like to craft or not. But he was making comparisons to end game dungeon gear and in that case yes crafting is pointless. As far PVP and housing is concerned i never said anything about people playing game wrong if they like these two features.
The next person that says "That's just your opinion..." can just shut up. That isn't an argument, a rebuttal, or anything else. It's a hollow, obvious, stupid statement that does nothing to further discussion.
Arguing that crafting is useful because of melds is like arguing that AK is fun because it drops tomes. Invalid, stupid, nonsensical logic. We can go over some basic facts here.
Fact: Crafted gear costs infinitely more than tome gear/dungeon gear.
Fact: Crafted gear, in it's HQ form at the highest level, is only on par with Darklight gear
Fact: Crafting from 1-50 costs more gil than not leveling a craft from 1-50
Fact: To craft end-game gear, you'll need even more materia (which you, at best, will make, but likely will purchase), effectively making crafting at end game impossible without spending even more time and money.
Fact: Even if you're a 100% dedicated crafter, you cannot make end-game gear without either 1) running dungeons/primals, or 2) buying materials. Each requires more effort than simply just running dungeons.
Fact: Darklight gear is all you need to run Bahamut's Coil.
Fact: Bahamut's Coil Gear > Crafted gear, period.
Fact: It is faster, cheaper, and easier to complete the game without ever touching a craft.
There's zero opinion in any of those points. Anything you say to try and disprove those statements is simply nonsense. Because of all of these facts, I feel confident in saying that Crafting is not viable, because it requires substantially more time, gil, and effort invested than merely doing PvE content for, at best, the same exact statistics on gear that you need to HQ to come out at the same level. If you NQ it, you actually spend even more time and gil for gear that is worse than it's level 60 AK dungeon gear counterpart. There are far too many reasons NOT to take that many risks, devote that much time, and that much gil!
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Ignore that and you end up making a thread like this I guess. So yeah man, you're right about everything. Those facts are irrefutable. So why am I still having fun? I must be some kind of idiot for investing all this time and gil into game systems that get me involved with other players the market, and the game world in general.
Hope you find a game you enjoy.
Because, despite all of those facts, personal preference is still the most important factor. Those facts are merely crushing the point about subjective opinions.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
this game was hyped way to much, i fell into the hype waste of 30 $ !
Your entire post was full of nothing but half truths and incorrect "facts". Mostly because your opinion is that crafting is useless since you never looked at the profits they can generate and thus pay for itself.
Alright man, whatever. You've got the blinders on, and you've said yourself that you do it for personal satisfaction. Dismissing every point around it because of your personal playstyle doesn't change the truth in those words. You pick the "gil argument" when it's convenient, and disregard the "time" argument when it's inconvenient. It's poor form, and I just can't be bothered to keep trying to explain it to you. Everyone of those statements was an irrefutable fact, and you tried to spin it like it wasn't, despite the most simple concept being: In order to make HQ end-game crafted gear, you need to sink the time into farming, leveling gathering and crafting classes, gearing gathering and crafting classes, farming dungeon/buying materials. And you dispute that, which is hogwash, because it's irrefutable unless you're buying your account. You are just too zealous to see that you're missing the points because you don't agree with the message.
I'm not gonna continue arguing with you. It's fruitless, and is leading to thread sabotage. I'm really glad you enjoy crafting though.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
For the last time. OP wasn't talking about your 'feelings' regarding crafting but comparisons were being made to end game raid gear compared to which crafted gear is inferior. We are not discussing your personal 'satisfaction' but how crafted gear stands in comparison to raid gear.
Content can be filler / fluff and still be end game but that doens't mean its the 'focus'. Since the person i quoted wrote that the next patch is equal parts focus even though PVP, housing etc are the most basic features almost every MMO incorporates.
I think it's going to fail.......mmm familiar mmo forum ground here. And of course it kicks off the yes/no posts.
The boring bit is that it time will tell - give it 6-9 months, then everyone will have the answer.
And the path to success is probably equally predictable to state:
1. Broad range of end content.
2. Frequent updates
3. Good support
Sounds pretty simple - but it isn't, especially item 1. The majority of game developers struggle to provide a broad enough end game interest. Hardcore pve, hardcore pvp, dedicated crafters, altaholics, lore addicts - And all the more casual player types of these disciplines.
Should be interesting to see how it goes on, especially when the next couple of major mmo's hit the streets.
Let me explain something here. The reason why it seems like you aren't able to win the argument with "Facts" is because you either aren't presenting all of the facts or you have blended the facts with your own opinions.
If Item A is more expensive than Item B then that is a fact. But you have taken that fact and merged your opinions into it by saying Since Item A costs more money than Item B but since Item B doesn't give as anything more than Item A then it's a fact that Item A is more valuable. But the value that Item B delivers, is ultimately subjective. You really need to learn what facts are and what subjectivity is because you are clearly confused.
And with that in mind, I am ultimately going to agree with you on one thing you have said. There is little point in continuing to argue any further.
No, I can't "win" because I'm talking to someone who doesn't accept that they're wrong. You have an incredible personal bias that crafting is worth it; you can re-read all your posts in the thread to see it. My argument has been that it simply isn't worth the cost, of time, gil, and effort, to achieve end-game crafting, because the returns are diminishing and the gains are not aligned with the initial cost. I don't hate crafting, I don't think crafting has no value, but I don't think it's worth pursuing for any reason beyond personal satisfaction. I have driven that point from 3 places:
1) Time required to level the craft (and in your case, gathering classes as well) and acquire mats for the synths
2) Gil required to level the craft + gear the craft well enough to be able to make said gear
3) Effort required to create comparable crafted gear vs. merely doing PvE dungeons.
You keep twisting it and making it seem like I'm the one being subjective here, when you proved yourself that, statistically, crafted gear is IDENTICAL to dungeon gear. On an HQ level it's identical, and NQ crafted end-game gear was inferior. In other words, if you do NOT successfully HQ end game gear, you're taking roughly a 500k gil loss on any given piece. This is absolutely factual. Your argument was that it was worth it because you liked making it for yourself, but at no point did I mention caring about personal preference. Based solely on a time + gil + effort, I pointed out that it's faster, cheaper, and easier to get dungeon gear. Somehow, you try to argue it because of your own personal enjoyment of crafting. But basic, fundamental, elementary educated people can understand that it takes longer to level a craft from 1-50, a combat class from 1-50, and a gathering class from 1-50 (mind you: this is assuming you NEVER run dungeons, make profits, and buy all your materials for end-game gear, *AND* farm all your own materials via gathering as you claim to have done) than it does to level a combat class from 1-50, and run dungeons to get some gear that is, as stated before identical to the end-game crafted gear. Yet you sit in your corner going "Nope, that's just your opinion. It's worth it.", when what you should be saying "It's worth it to me."
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Had you posted your last sentence in this post back on page 27, this would have ended right there and then instead of now.