I leveled to 19 an incredible 27 times on a single character....
I am so happy there was no sound when you downleveld... it would have been a nightmarish sound by now.. Just the sound of the ding was incredible, only precede by the hideous laughter of skeletons in EQ.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I leveled to 19 an incredible 27 times on a single character....
I am so happy there was no sound when you downleveld... it would have been a nightmarish sound by now.. Just the sound of the ding was incredible, only precede by the hideous laughter of skeletons in EQ.
It is great (for me) that no modern game will ask a player to do that.
Not to get in the way of a good nostalgic kick, but havesn't the niche of the level-up ding simply been replaced with achievement toast? (which offers more variety of quirky accomplishments, easy or hard, to celebrate)
Originally posted by Margrave Originally posted by judex99Heck i even miss the camp check shout xDDD
This reminded me of LONG ago in southern Ro.....
Camping the AC no doubt? :-). I got jboots from Drezla, and when I hear camp check, I always think of Lower Guk.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus I leveled to 19 an incredible 27 times on a single character.... I am so happy there was no sound when you downleveld... it would have been a nightmarish sound by now.. Just the sound of the ding was incredible, only precede by the hideous laughter of skeletons in EQ.
Yes a delevel sounds would just suck! Agreed the skeleton laughter was diabolical; and I'd nominate spectres as the next creepiest old world sound.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Alasti A lot of you who will read this post will not appreciate the nostalgia of the title of this thread because you are too young to have played Everquest in its earliest stages. I use Everquest to make my point, not because I think it was the greatest game ever (although I did think that for many many years, and quite honestly it is still on my "Top 3 games of all-time list), but because it was in the game of Everquest that the "DING!!!" was born. I will explain... In Everquest, leveling was by no means guaranteed. Even in the earliest levels of the game (levels 2-5), leveling was slow and difficult. I say difficult, not because it felt like work gaining the levels, but because death was scary. Death was meaningful because when you died, you lost experience AND whatever you had on your body, including all weapons, armor and whatever was in your bag. You were teleported back to town, naked, and were required to go back to your corpse (exactly where it fell) and get all your stuff back (even if that was in the deepest level of a dungeon). This took time, not only because you had to travel there, but a LOT of the time, you were not entirely sure WHERE you died. I honestly believe I died at least 20 times before I got to level 2, as I was a lowly wizard, wielding my worn staff at level 1 skeletons that quite frankly were at least equal to me, if not more powerful. When I finally got to level 2, (TWO!!), I was STOKED!! My friend who I was playing with truly congratulated me on my achievement, as he was still working on getting to my new uber-high level. When he did get there, I truly congratulated him as well, because I KNEW how hard it was to level as I had just been there. It wasn't until several WEEKS later, when I was fighting in the Oasis killing caimans and running in terror from the Sand Giants, that I started to see people shouting to the zone "DING!!!!" People would shout "DING!!" whenever they would gain a level. In Everquest, the game would sound a loud and shaking "DIIINNNNGGG!!!! when you would level. I still remember the sound vividly! It was AWESOME. I too started shouting "DING!!" every time I leveled as well (which was about once a WEEK). I would get at least a half dozen to as many as a dozen or more "CONGRATS!" from players I had never met. They were congratulating me on an accomplishment that had meaning. High level players congratulated me too, as they knew what it took to level. Not every player in the game even got to level 15, so when someone shouted "DING 15!!!!", it truly was an accomplishment! When was the last time you heard someone in a game (Not in your guild, or a friend of yours) announce to the world that they had gained a level? Why would anyone do that, since EVERYONE who plays these new MMO's nowadays are GUARANTEED to gain 10 levels in the first 2 hours? People would think someone was crazy for telling the zone that they just got to level 8. In the old games, getting to level 8 was a BIG DEAL. I remember in Everquest seeing another player flying (he was actually levitating, but you can see where I would be slightly confused). When I saw him floating there, my reaction was that of awe and wonder. I remember HOPING that one day I would get to be level 20 and get to fly myself. At that point in the game, I was not sure I would ever get there, and I was not guaranteed that I would ever be able to fly. When I did get there, it felt AWESOME! It was a true gaming accomplishment. What games lack now is ANY real feeling of accomplishment. A lot of people reading this will balk at this and tell me that getting to level ____ in the game ____IS an accomplishment. What made accomplishments in games like EQ MUCH more significant is that when you died, you lost experience and your gear (until you got it back, which instantly became a non-experience quest in-and-of-itself that was put on the fore-front). You didn't lose just some paltry amount of experience. Deaths in Everquest cost you a few HOURS. And getting your corpse back many times cost you your life again, and again. There were many days that my toon had less experience at the end of a 4-6 hour session than he had when I started....making leveling all the more rare and important. I know that a lot of people simply wouldn't play a game like that now. And I understand...you don't WANT to EVER lose experience...you don't want to EVER go backwards... Hey...I get it...me either....I never LIKED dying, or losing experience, or having a day where I was a level LOWER than when I started. But I do understand that with real risk, comes real reward. What do I mean when I say "real" reward? I am not talking about a reward I get in the game like a new sword or armor or even a mount. The reward I am talking about is the reward of the feeling of accomplishment. The feeling that I did something hard and succeeded. Gaining a level was a BIG deal...as it should be in my opinion! I miss the "DING!!" in games....not because I don't hear them (for the love of God, I hear them all the time), but because they don't mean anything.....
I missed "DING", also for years then started end of last years AC2 which was relaunched again and i saw after years the whole server reacted to someone accomplished a lvl or a difficult quest with many GRATS was great seeing that again, like in old days.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Arclan Camping the AC no doubt? :-). I got jboots from Drezla, and when I hear camp check, I always think of Lower Guk.
Yeh, i remember lower Guk .. camping SMR. Very bad experience.
6 hours. Easy mode since everyone jumps in and "helped". 99% of the time chatting. Nothing to show after.
I won't ever play a game like that.
Who cares if it's 99% chatting as long as it's fun. EQ naturally pushes away people who lack social skills; and we preferred it that way.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I loved the leveling speed in EQ1 release and I loved that one could lose their level. I never would say ding or even acknowledge a new level until I was 20% in.
I recall once early after release I was playing an alt and ran into two players that asked me to group with them. They were both around level 15. They told me that had been that level for 2 months. I quickly found out why. They kept pulling far to many mobs and would die, die and then die again. EQ1 was a wonderful game. The fear of death and loss was such a cool thing. Fights and good groups actually felt meaningful. Reputation mattered, Such a shame that everything is now easy mode.
nah .. it just add more grind. EQ grinding the same mob for xp again and again has little challenge and it is easy and boring mode.
Grinding is only when you are doing the same exact thing over and over with repetition without fear. Something that you can set up a macro and your can go to sleep. That is grinding to me.
When you fight the same mob over and over but every time is a fight to survive, its no longer a grind.
Because you are aware and active in your selections.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I loved the leveling speed in EQ1 release and I loved that one could lose their level. I never would say ding or even acknowledge a new level until I was 20% in.
I recall once early after release I was playing an alt and ran into two players that asked me to group with them. They were both around level 15. They told me that had been that level for 2 months. I quickly found out why. They kept pulling far to many mobs and would die, die and then die again. EQ1 was a wonderful game. The fear of death and loss was such a cool thing. Fights and good groups actually felt meaningful. Reputation mattered, Such a shame that everything is now easy mode.
nah .. it just add more grind. EQ grinding the same mob for xp again and again has little challenge and it is easy and boring mode.
Grinding is only when you are doing the same exact thing over and over with repetition without fear. Something that you can set up a macro and your can go to sleep. That is grinding to me.
When you fight the same mob over and over but every time is a fight to survive, its no longer a grind.
Because you are aware and active in your selections.
Yeh .. that is exactly what happen in EQ when you grnid mob.
Fight to survive? Don't make me giggle. A group of 5 beating down on a single respawn with 2 more groups waiting in line is not a fight to survive. It is more like 10 second of mild super easy activity, followed by 15 min of pure boredom.
That's what I liked about Lineage II... (played this for more than five years). It took you FOREVER to level up, but mind you, that was actually a GOOD thing and it really DID feel incredibly rewarding when you leveled up. It was a real achievement.
I mean, no wonder people complain about longevity when it is so darn easy to level up in every newer MMORPG. People reach max level in a few weeks or months and by then (because usually there isn't much else to do) the game gets old and boring very quickly.
I for one don't even want to look great and awesome. I enjoy looking like a little newbie for a while, and see myself change with every level I make, bit by bit. That's what I really liked about Lineage 2. There was so much equipment too... oh jeez, good old days.
So instead of going back to the genre's roots - to what worked and was never broken - devs instead keep tweaking and dinking around and producing games that more and more are becoming something that don't resemble MMORPGs at all. As someone who considers MMORPGs to be the best games and best gaming genre in all of gaming, I find this absolutely crushing.
What's more important...creating some of the most amazing games ever or mutilating those games to try to get more people to play them?
...
Cut some of that out for the sake of brevity lol..
Other than that.. Wow. It's like you dove into my brain, took a look around, and then put how I feel about the genre into words, only far more eloquently than I ever could.
Bravo. Excellent post.
The sad thing is, those who aren't fans of the way the genre was will likely just dismiss everything you said as "nostalgia goggles" or "rose colored glasses". It happens all the time, and it always gives me the impression of someone sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalala! Can't hear you!", while insisting they know you better than you know yourself.
A big problem with the "nostalgia goggles" argument is that when a game keeps you playing it for years, it's not nostalgia goggles keeping you there. When you're currently and actively playing a game, there's nothing to be nostalgic about. You're not remembering what you enjoyed about it. You're doing what you enjoy about it. If someone tells me, "I played "MMO Here" 9 years, and it was the most amazing MMO I've ever played", I tend to believe them. Why? Because logic.
Any activity that keeps someone voluntarily participating for years must be something they're getting some kind of enjoyment out of. This is even more so when there's a fee to participate. People don't tend to stick around and voluntarily pay for or participate in something that they hate; especially not something that's supposed to bean enjoyable pastime.
So, when someone says to me "No, you didn't really enjoy old-school FFXI. It wasn't that good of a game. You're just seeing through rose-colored glasses", I can only roll my eyes at them, because their reasoning is absurd. It sounds like a good argument, for about two seconds, until you actually stop and apply some critical thinking to it. Then you realize it's a BS cop-out response, used as a way to dismiss arguments, so they don't have to actually address them; usually because they can't. Not only did I very much enjoy FFXI for all those years, I left the game when Abyssea changed it from the game I used to enjoy.
There's another argument I see a lot which is even more ridiculous. It's another false dilemma. It goes something like this: "Those games only did well because there weren't as many options back then". Again, sounds great, for about 2 seconds, until you stop and think critically about it.
It still goes back to "if someone isn't enjoying something, they're not likely to stick around and voluntarily continue doing it". It doesn't matter if EQ1 was the only MMO in town, or one of 100 available. If people didn't enjoy playing EQ1... they probably weren't playing EQ1. And if they didn't like any of the other MMO offerings at the time? They probably weren't playing any of those, either. There's never been a need to "choose the lesser of all evils", because not playing any of them has always been a valid choice. Playing a MMO has never been a compulsory thing. It's 100% voluntary. Even when EQ1 was in its hay-day, therewere many people who had no interest in MMOs. Or, there are some who tried a couple, found they didn't care for the genre, and never continued playing any.
To wit: People played EQ1, or UO, or DAoC, or any other old-school MMO back then for the same reason people will play a MMO now: Because they enjoy it.
And yet another common argument that also doesn't stand up: "People will always remember their first MMO most fondly and compare every other MMO to it". Again, perhaps the case sometimes, but definitely not all the time. Not enough to assume it's the case for everyone.
My favorite MMO was pre-Abyssea FFXI. I played that game from its NA PC launch up 'til Abyssea started changing the game and how people played it, which is when I no longer found it fun (this is where someone would come in and say I only think I liked pre-Abyssea FFXI, but it's just nostalgia goggles... but I digress). However, FFXI was not my first MMO. It wasn't even my 2nd. It was my 4th.
Prior to FFXI, I'd played Shadowbane (enjoyed it, would probably still be playing if it was online), Anarchy Online (enjoyed it and I still play it off and on to this day) and Asheron's Call 2 (very much enjoyed it, been playing off and on since it came back). FFXI was the first MMO that grabbed me and wouldn't let go.
That said it wasn't the only MMO that grabbed me in that way, and kept me playing for years. Lineage 2 had the same effect. I tried it out in Beta and something about it just grabbed me, and I continued to play into launch, though I wouldn't hit my stride until Chronicle 3. I continued to play L2 for about 5 years. I still play it to this day, though not as much since I'm not as much a fan of the GoD changes. I enjoyed it more when it was a harsher, less forgiving game - that's not nostalgia goggles.
So, suffice to say, it's not a "safe bet" to dismiss someone's love of a MMO as being "because it's their first". That's not always the case. The only safe bet (and the one many around here, and on other forums will never take) is to just take what someone says as what they actually mean. If someone says they really enjoyed old-school MMOs, then it's safest to take their word for it, because really... unless you ("you" in general) know them personally and were there to have witnessed otherwise, you have no way of knowing what they do or don't remember, what they did or didn't like. To argue otherwise, using pseudo-intellectual, paper-thin canned responses, only makes you look presumptuous and rather foolish.
There were times in EQ, or DAoC, or even AC, where you could spend days leveling the same general area. You would often go from, holy crap, I can't handle this, this is insane, to finally being on par but still having to tread lightly, to getting to I own this area and it's time to move on but let me just beat down a few more things here to enact revenge for a few days ago.
All of your post was well stated - but this part is what I miss. It is similar to when Bethesda started with the scaling monsters etc. There is something about getting your but handed to you by something. . having a penalty for it and then later taking sweet sweet revenge when you were able
If you are never challenged you will never truly appreciate success.
I just miss when most of the games were relatively different from each other.
Now the same game keeps being made over and over with minor changes because it is the most "commercially viable". If an MMO doesn't have quest based leveling, a short trip to the level cap, instanced dungeons, and a raid based end game gear grind it's considered a "niche" game now.
It'd be like if developers saw that super mario bros was super popular and decided they should just make more 2d platform games and 99% of games were 2d platform games for the next 20 years.
A giant living breathing world - that could bring players back to the genre. I wonder if I will live long enough to see it. It seems the only improvements we have hand in gaming in the last 20 years is a nicer skin over games - as well as the power to handle 3d gaming..
We already live in a gaint living breathing world and people want to escape from it into entertainment.
The question is not whether a game is a "giant living breathing world" but whether it is fun and entertaining.
Now entertaining is very subjective, of course. To me, a level-based games like Deus Ex Human Evolution (hence no giant living world) is 100x more entertaining and fun than UO or Eve, which arguable have more of a world.
Exploring a giant, living, breathing world can be quite entertaining. They're not mutually exclusive. Why make them so?
I love the idea of escaping from the "real world" I live in, into a completely fictitious fantasy world for many reasons. For one, the closest I'll ever come to exploring the real world will be to watch videos or see photos of places I'd like to see in person. It's simply too expensive, time-consuming and difficult - even dangerous - to travel to many places in real life, unless you're wealthy and can afford to do such things (which I'm not).
There are places and things that can exist in a fantasy world that could never exist in real life. A vast and vibrant fantasy world is the only place I could ever see or explore such places.
I enjoy playing games. But I also enjoy inhabiting and exploring virtual worlds born of others' imaginations via my character. I see no reason to limit it to being one way or the other.
It seems you're more interested in "playing a game" than being immersed in a fantasy world, and that's fine. But don't believe for a moment that the two can't co-exist.
Just a heads up Tangent, you're not going to convince someone who generally holds combat to be 'the gameplay' for games that there are alternative forms of play that offer equal degrees of fun or other aspects to a game world to add to entertainment.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Just a heads up Tangent, you're not going to convince someone who generally holds combat to be 'the gameplay' for games that there are alternative forms of play that offer equal degrees of fun or other aspects to a game world to add to entertainment.
That goes without saying.
You don't think anyone here is changing his/her mind, do you? It is just forum pvp, no more and no less. Not a single person here is going to change his/her preference.
It's never been a matter of preferences when I talk about something, I'd much rather deal in corrections, clarifications, and informative elements than quibbling over what's ultimately meaningless posturing.
Hence why you never(excusing the random moment of levity) really see me post outside of correcting something or laying out a wall of text about some game mechanic or theory.
When a conversation that could be insightful into the variety of game mechanics within a genre or in general the possible concepts to utilize on a game platform gets waylaid by 'I only enjoy X therefore I only see X as good/viable.' I generally can only be disappointed.
When that's all you're willing to build a conversation into, then it's not even hardly a conversation or PvP. It's vapid bantering that flops on itself over and over without going anywhere. There's no merit or noting of rationale to what elements of a game make it what it is, it's more often than not a vaguely realized ramble about one liking a general state of gaming without any breakdown of the logic.
I mean take that post thread made previously attempting to explain why you prefer to play MMOs and enjoy them being a largely single player focused experience. You outlined that you liked them because they played in a disposable manner more or less, and didn't actually elaborate beyond that. Subsequent bantering in that thread was basically just circular logic stating 'I like X type of game and this plays like X type of game so I play it as X type of game.' and we never saw any breakdown of the individual mechanics or values that define these games beyond the generally obvious factors of them being solo-friendly with a narrative built around a 'you're the hero' mindset and combat being pretty much the only core attribute.
If that's all every conversation is going to amount to, then restating the argument in every new thread made is perhaps only comparable to spamming the A button in a fighting game, if you're to think of it as forum 'PvP'.
I don't care about forum PvP. I care about information. The clarity and the complexity of that information, and the ideas that can spawn out of it to see progress towards new game designs, new theories, and new experiences. Rehashing the same vague remark time and again gains nothing, proves nothing, and consequently means nothing.
So for me this 'PvP' more akin to a shallow shouting match. Even though I've admittedly gotten into some before, it's distinctly not something I enjoy. the semantic arguments, the nitpicking the particulars of a phrase, the cherry picking comments and gutting of context to make up meaningless straw men arguments and red herrings just so that one can try to be king of the hill. It's a form of competition that is even less worthwhile than waxing philosophically to your pet tortoise.
So fine. If all you get out of forums is a place to bicker without approaching anything to contemplate, then that's your thing to enjoy.
It's very far removed from my stance however. When comments are made that argue for or against what's functionally information beyond opinion, yet subject to the standard of opinion and consequently dismissed entirely out of hand, it's nothing short of a disappointment in and insult to our rational capabilities.
We could have an interesting conversation about the value of progression in games and how it's been weighted differently by different titles. We could talk about what the changes seem to have done to the community and where that trend seems to be migrating us. We could be considering different types of game mechanics that could change the manner in which our progress is perceived, the pace it moves at, or the nature of how it operates. We could be talking about preferred styles in the context of what mechanics we value and how we could integrate them more tightly into a game. We could be talking about how we could reconcile disparate ideologies within the context of a single game, or the values of compartmentalization with variety.
When all that kind of information is tucked away behind the regular shouting of indignation, staunch refusals to acknowledge different viewpoints, or sometimes outright rejection of presented logic, then all that kind of conversation is for naught and we might as well be yipping chihuahuas.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I don't care about forum PvP. I care about information. The clarity and the complexity of that information, and the ideas that can spawn out of it to see progress towards new game designs, new theories, and new experiences. Rehashing the same vague remark time and again gains nothing, proves nothing, and consequently means nothing.
Then you are at the wrong place.
Most stuff said here is just flogging a very dead zombie horse. Rant about easymode, rant about lack of sandbox, rant about lack of time sinks, rant about rants ....
Aside from the posting of the very occasional gaming articles, i don't see much information to be gained here.
Gaming articles aren't the only form of information. For that matter one does not have to constantly appeal to external rhetoric if their own talking points are rational and valid. It might help, but it's not necessary.
We have people like Sovrath and Loktofeit that are examples of pretty sane people. I might not agree with them, but they tend to explain their position relatively well and it isn't simply them justifying their opinion, it's frequently an explanation of the principles that might guide others in the same way.
It's valuable and it's insightful. They are two examples of posters here that in general address things in the way I'd prefer they be addressed.
You are right in that there are many people just ranting. but that's generally any community any more (short of the more heavy handed regulations).
Yet, this is also why there's a dev section here, it's part of why MMORPG.com has reached out to indie and some popular developers to do articles and conversations with them. Because this is the right place to go for talking about things consequential to MMOs. It's why it's called MMORPG.com in the first place.
Just because one does not want to bring merit to any conversations, nor many, does not mean all.
Take this very thread for example. The original post was a reminisce about the weight felt with gaining progress in EQ, and noted there seeming to be a trend away from that to feed such progression in at a much faster pace now, causing a downplay in the sensation of achievement with that contracted pace and (via additional comments throughout the thread) focus on the 'end'.
This could be taken simply as a lamentation, but it has points being made, whether or not someone agrees, denies, or has a differing perception of whether or not these points are good/bad or otherwise doesn't change that there has been conversations held in this very thread that were more meaningful than simply whining over a game.
Whether you are a part of it or even notice is generally a problem on your end. If all you want is 'forum PvP' then that's probably all you're paying attention to.
It's not what I'm interested in, it's not what I pay attention to, so I post elsewhere here when there is something interesting to be had.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Comments
I leveled to 19 an incredible 27 times on a single character....
I am so happy there was no sound when you downleveld... it would have been a nightmarish sound by now.. Just the sound of the ding was incredible, only precede by the hideous laughter of skeletons in EQ.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
It is great (for me) that no modern game will ask a player to do that.
Camping the AC no doubt? :-). I got jboots from Drezla, and when I hear camp check, I always think of Lower Guk.
Yes a delevel sounds would just suck! Agreed the skeleton laughter was diabolical; and I'd nominate spectres as the next creepiest old world sound.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I missed "DING", also for years then started end of last years AC2 which was relaunched again and i saw after years the whole server reacted to someone accomplished a lvl or a difficult quest with many GRATS was great seeing that again, like in old days.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Yeh, i remember lower Guk .. camping SMR. Very bad experience.
6 hours. Easy mode since everyone jumps in and "helped". 99% of the time chatting. Nothing to show after.
I won't ever play a game like that.
6 hours. Easy mode since everyone jumps in and "helped". 99% of the time chatting. Nothing to show after.
I won't ever play a game like that.
Who cares if it's 99% chatting as long as it's fun. EQ naturally pushes away people who lack social skills; and we preferred it that way.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I care. It is very boring to me. If i want to chat, i go to a chat room. I don't play games to chat.
Good news for me ... devs figured out that people don't play games so that they can chat 99% in game. So this kind of design is no longer popular.
Grinding is only when you are doing the same exact thing over and over with repetition without fear. Something that you can set up a macro and your can go to sleep. That is grinding to me.
When you fight the same mob over and over but every time is a fight to survive, its no longer a grind.
Because you are aware and active in your selections.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Yeh .. that is exactly what happen in EQ when you grnid mob.
Fight to survive? Don't make me giggle. A group of 5 beating down on a single respawn with 2 more groups waiting in line is not a fight to survive. It is more like 10 second of mild super easy activity, followed by 15 min of pure boredom.
Agreed!!
That's what I liked about Lineage II... (played this for more than five years). It took you FOREVER to level up, but mind you, that was actually a GOOD thing and it really DID feel incredibly rewarding when you leveled up. It was a real achievement.
I mean, no wonder people complain about longevity when it is so darn easy to level up in every newer MMORPG. People reach max level in a few weeks or months and by then (because usually there isn't much else to do) the game gets old and boring very quickly.
I for one don't even want to look great and awesome. I enjoy looking like a little newbie for a while, and see myself change with every level I make, bit by bit. That's what I really liked about Lineage 2. There was so much equipment too... oh jeez, good old days.
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
I second that
Cut some of that out for the sake of brevity lol..
Other than that.. Wow. It's like you dove into my brain, took a look around, and then put how I feel about the genre into words, only far more eloquently than I ever could.
Bravo. Excellent post.
The sad thing is, those who aren't fans of the way the genre was will likely just dismiss everything you said as "nostalgia goggles" or "rose colored glasses". It happens all the time, and it always gives me the impression of someone sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalala! Can't hear you!", while insisting they know you better than you know yourself.
A big problem with the "nostalgia goggles" argument is that when a game keeps you playing it for years, it's not nostalgia goggles keeping you there. When you're currently and actively playing a game, there's nothing to be nostalgic about. You're not remembering what you enjoyed about it. You're doing what you enjoy about it. If someone tells me, "I played "MMO Here" 9 years, and it was the most amazing MMO I've ever played", I tend to believe them. Why? Because logic.
Any activity that keeps someone voluntarily participating for years must be something they're getting some kind of enjoyment out of. This is even more so when there's a fee to participate. People don't tend to stick around and voluntarily pay for or participate in something that they hate; especially not something that's supposed to be an enjoyable pastime.
So, when someone says to me "No, you didn't really enjoy old-school FFXI. It wasn't that good of a game. You're just seeing through rose-colored glasses", I can only roll my eyes at them, because their reasoning is absurd. It sounds like a good argument, for about two seconds, until you actually stop and apply some critical thinking to it. Then you realize it's a BS cop-out response, used as a way to dismiss arguments, so they don't have to actually address them; usually because they can't. Not only did I very much enjoy FFXI for all those years, I left the game when Abyssea changed it from the game I used to enjoy.
There's another argument I see a lot which is even more ridiculous. It's another false dilemma. It goes something like this: "Those games only did well because there weren't as many options back then". Again, sounds great, for about 2 seconds, until you stop and think critically about it.
It still goes back to "if someone isn't enjoying something, they're not likely to stick around and voluntarily continue doing it". It doesn't matter if EQ1 was the only MMO in town, or one of 100 available. If people didn't enjoy playing EQ1... they probably weren't playing EQ1. And if they didn't like any of the other MMO offerings at the time? They probably weren't playing any of those, either. There's never been a need to "choose the lesser of all evils", because not playing any of them has always been a valid choice. Playing a MMO has never been a compulsory thing. It's 100% voluntary. Even when EQ1 was in its hay-day, there were many people who had no interest in MMOs. Or, there are some who tried a couple, found they didn't care for the genre, and never continued playing any.
To wit: People played EQ1, or UO, or DAoC, or any other old-school MMO back then for the same reason people will play a MMO now: Because they enjoy it.
And yet another common argument that also doesn't stand up: "People will always remember their first MMO most fondly and compare every other MMO to it". Again, perhaps the case sometimes, but definitely not all the time. Not enough to assume it's the case for everyone.
My favorite MMO was pre-Abyssea FFXI. I played that game from its NA PC launch up 'til Abyssea started changing the game and how people played it, which is when I no longer found it fun (this is where someone would come in and say I only think I liked pre-Abyssea FFXI, but it's just nostalgia goggles... but I digress). However, FFXI was not my first MMO. It wasn't even my 2nd. It was my 4th.
Prior to FFXI, I'd played Shadowbane (enjoyed it, would probably still be playing if it was online), Anarchy Online (enjoyed it and I still play it off and on to this day) and Asheron's Call 2 (very much enjoyed it, been playing off and on since it came back). FFXI was the first MMO that grabbed me and wouldn't let go.
That said it wasn't the only MMO that grabbed me in that way, and kept me playing for years. Lineage 2 had the same effect. I tried it out in Beta and something about it just grabbed me, and I continued to play into launch, though I wouldn't hit my stride until Chronicle 3. I continued to play L2 for about 5 years. I still play it to this day, though not as much since I'm not as much a fan of the GoD changes. I enjoyed it more when it was a harsher, less forgiving game - that's not nostalgia goggles.
So, suffice to say, it's not a "safe bet" to dismiss someone's love of a MMO as being "because it's their first". That's not always the case. The only safe bet (and the one many around here, and on other forums will never take) is to just take what someone says as what they actually mean. If someone says they really enjoyed old-school MMOs, then it's safest to take their word for it, because really... unless you ("you" in general) know them personally and were there to have witnessed otherwise, you have no way of knowing what they do or don't remember, what they did or didn't like. To argue otherwise, using pseudo-intellectual, paper-thin canned responses, only makes you look presumptuous and rather foolish.
All of your post was well stated - but this part is what I miss. It is similar to when Bethesda started with the scaling monsters etc. There is something about getting your but handed to you by something. . having a penalty for it and then later taking sweet sweet revenge when you were able
If you are never challenged you will never truly appreciate success.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Now the same game keeps being made over and over with minor changes because it is the most "commercially viable". If an MMO doesn't have quest based leveling, a short trip to the level cap, instanced dungeons, and a raid based end game gear grind it's considered a "niche" game now.
It'd be like if developers saw that super mario bros was super popular and decided they should just make more 2d platform games and 99% of games were 2d platform games for the next 20 years.
Exploring a giant, living, breathing world can be quite entertaining. They're not mutually exclusive. Why make them so?
I love the idea of escaping from the "real world" I live in, into a completely fictitious fantasy world for many reasons. For one, the closest I'll ever come to exploring the real world will be to watch videos or see photos of places I'd like to see in person. It's simply too expensive, time-consuming and difficult - even dangerous - to travel to many places in real life, unless you're wealthy and can afford to do such things (which I'm not).
There are places and things that can exist in a fantasy world that could never exist in real life. A vast and vibrant fantasy world is the only place I could ever see or explore such places.
I enjoy playing games. But I also enjoy inhabiting and exploring virtual worlds born of others' imaginations via my character. I see no reason to limit it to being one way or the other.
It seems you're more interested in "playing a game" than being immersed in a fantasy world, and that's fine. But don't believe for a moment that the two can't co-exist.
They are not mutually exclusive, but a giant, living, breathing world is also not required.
And making one is expensive, and resources may not be spent on features I value more, like good combat.
Just a heads up Tangent, you're not going to convince someone who generally holds combat to be 'the gameplay' for games that there are alternative forms of play that offer equal degrees of fun or other aspects to a game world to add to entertainment.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
That goes without saying.
You don't think anyone here is changing his/her mind, do you? It is just forum pvp, no more and no less. Not a single person here is going to change his/her preference.
It's never been a matter of preferences when I talk about something, I'd much rather deal in corrections, clarifications, and informative elements than quibbling over what's ultimately meaningless posturing.
Hence why you never(excusing the random moment of levity) really see me post outside of correcting something or laying out a wall of text about some game mechanic or theory.
When a conversation that could be insightful into the variety of game mechanics within a genre or in general the possible concepts to utilize on a game platform gets waylaid by 'I only enjoy X therefore I only see X as good/viable.' I generally can only be disappointed.
When that's all you're willing to build a conversation into, then it's not even hardly a conversation or PvP. It's vapid bantering that flops on itself over and over without going anywhere. There's no merit or noting of rationale to what elements of a game make it what it is, it's more often than not a vaguely realized ramble about one liking a general state of gaming without any breakdown of the logic.
I mean take that post thread made previously attempting to explain why you prefer to play MMOs and enjoy them being a largely single player focused experience. You outlined that you liked them because they played in a disposable manner more or less, and didn't actually elaborate beyond that. Subsequent bantering in that thread was basically just circular logic stating 'I like X type of game and this plays like X type of game so I play it as X type of game.' and we never saw any breakdown of the individual mechanics or values that define these games beyond the generally obvious factors of them being solo-friendly with a narrative built around a 'you're the hero' mindset and combat being pretty much the only core attribute.
If that's all every conversation is going to amount to, then restating the argument in every new thread made is perhaps only comparable to spamming the A button in a fighting game, if you're to think of it as forum 'PvP'.
I don't care about forum PvP. I care about information. The clarity and the complexity of that information, and the ideas that can spawn out of it to see progress towards new game designs, new theories, and new experiences. Rehashing the same vague remark time and again gains nothing, proves nothing, and consequently means nothing.
So for me this 'PvP' more akin to a shallow shouting match. Even though I've admittedly gotten into some before, it's distinctly not something I enjoy. the semantic arguments, the nitpicking the particulars of a phrase, the cherry picking comments and gutting of context to make up meaningless straw men arguments and red herrings just so that one can try to be king of the hill. It's a form of competition that is even less worthwhile than waxing philosophically to your pet tortoise.
So fine. If all you get out of forums is a place to bicker without approaching anything to contemplate, then that's your thing to enjoy.
It's very far removed from my stance however. When comments are made that argue for or against what's functionally information beyond opinion, yet subject to the standard of opinion and consequently dismissed entirely out of hand, it's nothing short of a disappointment in and insult to our rational capabilities.
We could have an interesting conversation about the value of progression in games and how it's been weighted differently by different titles. We could talk about what the changes seem to have done to the community and where that trend seems to be migrating us. We could be considering different types of game mechanics that could change the manner in which our progress is perceived, the pace it moves at, or the nature of how it operates. We could be talking about preferred styles in the context of what mechanics we value and how we could integrate them more tightly into a game. We could be talking about how we could reconcile disparate ideologies within the context of a single game, or the values of compartmentalization with variety.
When all that kind of information is tucked away behind the regular shouting of indignation, staunch refusals to acknowledge different viewpoints, or sometimes outright rejection of presented logic, then all that kind of conversation is for naught and we might as well be yipping chihuahuas.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Then you are at the wrong place.
Most stuff said here is just flogging a very dead zombie horse. Rant about easymode, rant about lack of sandbox, rant about lack of time sinks, rant about rants ....
Aside from the posting of the very occasional gaming articles, i don't see much information to be gained here.
Gaming articles aren't the only form of information. For that matter one does not have to constantly appeal to external rhetoric if their own talking points are rational and valid. It might help, but it's not necessary.
We have people like Sovrath and Loktofeit that are examples of pretty sane people. I might not agree with them, but they tend to explain their position relatively well and it isn't simply them justifying their opinion, it's frequently an explanation of the principles that might guide others in the same way.
It's valuable and it's insightful. They are two examples of posters here that in general address things in the way I'd prefer they be addressed.
You are right in that there are many people just ranting. but that's generally any community any more (short of the more heavy handed regulations).
Yet, this is also why there's a dev section here, it's part of why MMORPG.com has reached out to indie and some popular developers to do articles and conversations with them. Because this is the right place to go for talking about things consequential to MMOs. It's why it's called MMORPG.com in the first place.
Just because one does not want to bring merit to any conversations, nor many, does not mean all.
Take this very thread for example. The original post was a reminisce about the weight felt with gaining progress in EQ, and noted there seeming to be a trend away from that to feed such progression in at a much faster pace now, causing a downplay in the sensation of achievement with that contracted pace and (via additional comments throughout the thread) focus on the 'end'.
This could be taken simply as a lamentation, but it has points being made, whether or not someone agrees, denies, or has a differing perception of whether or not these points are good/bad or otherwise doesn't change that there has been conversations held in this very thread that were more meaningful than simply whining over a game.
Whether you are a part of it or even notice is generally a problem on your end. If all you want is 'forum PvP' then that's probably all you're paying attention to.
It's not what I'm interested in, it's not what I pay attention to, so I post elsewhere here when there is something interesting to be had.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Congo-rats!
And btw this huge long post, i gather that you found discussing about why people post here an interesting topic?