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Kind of disappointed by the cross-class ability system
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
So let me say first that I more or less like this game, I think it has a lot going for it. That said, I AM pretty disappointed with the cross-class abilities system which was honestly the biggest draw I had to this game.
My hope was that this system would allow you to mix and match abilities from different classes to create something truly unique...a fighter that flings fire, a conjurer with a sword etc.. Kind of like how Guild Wars or heck, even FFXI allowed you to combine class abilities to create something new.
But the more I play, the more I realize that cross-class abilities are so insanely limited that they only really serve to make each class "better" at what its specialty is, rather than give you the flexibility to build your own customized class. For example, you could never make a fighter that flings fire because all of the "nuke" abilities of the Thaumaturge class are Thaumaturge only.
This trend continues with other classes, where the majority of their abilities are exclusive to their class. In fact, it seems like most cross-class abilities are more like general "buffs" that give you a temporary increase to damage or defense or something. While this is nice, giving your thaumaturge a 20% damage increase ability from archer really doesn't make him feel any different...he is just a thaumaturge that now does more damage lol.
Even worse, many of the "physical" cross-class abilities (like weapon skills) are restricted ONLY to other physical classes, and vice versa for the "magical" cross-class abilities. So this even further limits what you can do.
So in the end, it seems like in FFXIV you will never have the equivalent of the crazy GW1 necromancer that ran around with a sword and warrior abilities, or the ranger that leveraged his speed to make great use of touch spells from a magic class. Instead, a thaumaturge will always be just a thaumaturge, etc.
Anyway, I'm curious to see what you guys thought of the whole cross-class system. Were you expecting something that allowed more freedom like me and wound up disappointed? Or are you happy with it how it is?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you have a support job in FFXI that was half the level of your regular job, and you could use all the abilities from that job?
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You're right about it being half the level of your main class but you could not use all of the abilities of your secondary class.
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Thanks
My curiosity has been fading. My only draw has been the class system. I always figure (probably wrong..)I could get into a pve only game with some awesome customization.
I don't know what the heck these companies are thinking about sometimes. It's like when they have meetings, someone says "Let's do this!," then someone else says "but demographic B3 will be frustrated." "How about this!", "No G6 would leave in droves."
Sorry for the side rant...
Crafting cross-class abilties are done right.
However, currently tanking job vs class balance sucks hard; jobs are superior to classes for tanks, i.e. warrior and paladin are far better than gladiator and marauder.
Lancer vs Dragoon balance is done right. Dragoon has better burst and slightly better dps, but lancer has far more utility.
Gathering class cross-classing is practically non-existent.
I haven't done analysis of other classes yet.
It's a trinity game. You can't have full cross-class without completely breaking the game due to OP combos.
A tank is a tank.
A healer is a healer.
A DPS is a DPS.
Asking for something else is just silly.
Yes it is. That isn't one of the "holy three".
Support is integrated into each one of the above, depending on what class you pick that is silo'd into one of the three.
Bard has support.
Both healing jobs have support.
PLD has support.
And so on...
Haha, nah I totally understand. It sounds like you have similar feelings to mine regarding this game. Customization with cross-class abilities was definitely my major draw to this game, but it's just not there. It's more like "Oh to be the best black mage I need to level lancer to such and such level so I can get blood for blood and thus do more damage."
So, at least to me, it feels more like an "ability grind" than it does a customizeable class system.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think my issue is that FFXIV is a very "hard" trinity game. In other words, you are completely locked into your trinity role with your class, no matter what other abilities you take. A paladin will ALWAYS just be a tank, a white mage will ALWAYS just heal. There is no room to make a more versatile class, like the WoW druid or something.
Even Rift gave you more room to customize your class. Healing chloromancers could still do good damage with abilities from warlock or whatever etc...
Anyway to sum up, my main disappoint is that the cross-class system in FFXIV is more of a "longevity / ability grinding" system than it is a character customization system. It is there so that now to be the best black mage, you have to get level such and such in lancer etc.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You know, despite games like Rift, I still haven't found a class system that worked as well as EQ 1. They managed to have distinctive classes without pigeon-holeing abilities and spells. Whatever their formula, I have yet to play an MMO since that has given me the same level of "Character" satisfaction. Classes in FFXI felt more satisfying to me than they did in FFXIV. In large part due to the lack of utility / funny skills and spells.
Yes good point and I completely agree. I didn't mind just being CC in EQ1 because Enchanter was such a rich class with so many fun abilities. I mean, I could turn myself into random objects on the ground and spin around just for fun lol
. And of course you get crack (clarity) later for great buff utility.
And even Warrior was a lot of fun despite having no spells. You could easily build a warrior in EQ to do a LOT of damage and be tanky.
In FFXIV though, it feels like almost every ability you get is just tailor-made to help you fit into your given role. I really wish MMORPG devs would spend less time on making 100's of different varieties of "get 10 bat wings" quests and more time on creating awesome class abilities. IMO, the ability to turn yourself into a bag is 100x more fun than hearing the 500 different justifications for why someone needs 10 bat wings.
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You can't do it. Each archetype has skills that are extremely powerful for that archetype. If you start cross classing that, any semblance of game balance disappears.
FFXIV is extremely hard trinity. I think it makes the game fun because you've got a role to do and you better do it well. Sandbox ability designs are a nightmare to balance and usually the attempts to balance completely fail. There's almost always a build that is superior to others. That build will have people flocking to it.
Ends up being just as cookie cutter.
First off, I don't think you played FFXI - but that's ok. They aren't trying to let folks do whatever they want here. They're trying to let you make you character a bit more unique then other characters of the same class/job. You could have a level 50 with 10 extra abilities that differ from another level 50 based on the skills that you like. But yeah, they do keep you in line to stay within the Final Fantasy world.
I'm pretty happy with the cross -class system as is. It's not Guild Wars and I'm very happy about that. I hated Guild Wars lol.
They do keep you in a role.. so to say.. but you're not locked by any means as you can switch classes and play any role you want. I don't like the newer games like Guild Wars 2 where everyone just runs around DPS'ing. It looks ridiculous. I'll take my trinity game any day.
EQ1's formula (and I am an EQ1 fanboy), was screw class balance, we'll do whatever the hell we want. It was awesome in some ways, but made some classes infuriatingly difficult in many situations, but that was part of the charm.
They truly didn't care about PvP balance either. It was the most unbalanced game I ever played and I really enjoyed it, at the time.
I've gone back and played it on emulators, and it's truly brutal compared to modern mmo's. I suspect most of the mmo population would flee from such a game now days, despite my inner longing for it all over again.
As for the FFXIV classes... I think the cross class system is good. However, if it wasn't for the ability to be all classes on one character and swap between them on a dime, I would find it far to restrictive, but as it stands my character feels robust and complex enough because he has so many options all the time. For people that play only one or two classes, I can understand how the system would feel limited.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Further complicating the party structures - before you needed 3 roles to do anything, now you need 4 roles.
Four different roles. That is a massive downside in a party-based MMORPG where you need the system to be flexible enough to avoid unnecessary bottlenecking. A dedicated support role is exactly the kind of bottleneck a developer wants to avoid.
FFXIV just like FFXI was not meant to have skill trees! These games always relied upon them. In 1.0 there was cross-class abilities until jobs were released. In 1.0 those classes were not good.
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http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689
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Well in FFXI my Samurai played differently when it was /Ranger, /Warrior, and /Thief..... so Not exactly and none of the playstyles had anything to do with stats.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
That is a subjective feeling perceived by individuals, not an objective truth.
You can enjoy the design of a trinity system or you can still feel unsatisfied in a four role system.
Cross Class system? You want a good cross class system!? Go back to playing Final Fantasy Tactics or Final Fantasy V!
.....Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy V were some of the greatest games of all time, actually. Although I suppose given how BROKEN things could get if you knew how to set your classes at all, it does make sense that they wouldn't have such a thing in an MMO. However, it does make playing an MMO feel like you're going BACKWARDs in terms of customization.
I kinda figured the jobs would be as rigid as they are, and I'm fine with that.
I had kinda hoped that post L30, the classes would still be relevant. You could be a L50 GLD, and with sufficient DPS-oriented cross-class abillities, sorta kinda DPS rather than tank. You'll not beat out any pure DPS classes, but hell if your having fun and it works who cares.
The problem is post-30, you don't see anyone outside of their jobs. Jobs totally take over the game at that point.
Part of it I blame on the DF - if your a GLD, you can only queue as tank, regardless of if you have the PLD crystal equipped or not. I always felt very constrained by the DF as an ARC - it only ever let me queue as DPS, and then at L30 as a SCH it all of a sudden dumped me into the Healer role.
Pretty simple reason for that.
Regardless of what you spec on cross-class you will never be able to perform at a level that will allow for consistent contribution in any instance other than your defined archetype.
A scholar will never be able to keep up on DPS.
A summoner will never be able to heal efficiently.
A tank will never be able to DPS significantly.
If they allowed you to DF queue as something OTHER than your intended role you'll probably ruin the party and intended instance balance.
Don't use the duty finder. Get in a good FC and play however the hell you want. That's what I did. These days though it seems no one wants to form a group. People just want to hit the DF button and run with pugs. I will wit longer to do something if necessary as I'd rather have a FC group or a local group rather then the DF.