Originally posted by Zapzap I much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".
Thats where your wrong.
You see leveling as somethign stupid. Leveling is where your game begins not End game. please get off the end game high horse because end game is stupid.
How can I be wrong, it's my opinion? I prefer games without "end game", that's it. Games where the gameplay doesn't drastically change once you reach some "cap".
And I think I was respectful in my posts, too bad you didn't return the favor.
It should be slow enough to make meaningful use of the areas players progress through.
One thing, I've had a problem with in games from the last decade, is how most of the content zoomed past before I could enjoy it to the fullest. I never got to truly master a dungeon or to pass on that mastery to new people comming up..There would have been a lot of game to enjoy while leveling, but I was forced past it at atleast twice the pace I would have liked.
If the vaunted end game is going to be to go to the same dungeons day after day, I should at least have to go through lower level dungeons more than once. The devs have put just as much effort into lower the level content and there is a hell of a lot more of it, so why are they leveling the players out of it by stuffing xp down their throats. It always seemed so idiotic that they would deliberately rush everyone into the last 10% of the game.
We dont need a 50 level tutorial.. we know how everything works before we even try it.. although if you are new to MMOs you would probably take 10-30 minutes or so to figure out the basics..
Originally posted by Zapzap I much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".
Thats where your wrong.
You see leveling as somethign stupid. Leveling is where your game begins not End game. please get off the end game high horse because end game is stupid.
How can I be wrong, it's my opinion? I prefer games without "end game", that's it. Games where the gameplay doesn't drastically change once you reach some "cap".
And I think I was respectful in my posts, too bad you didn't return the favor.
This ^^^. How can a preference be wrong?
I don't see why preferring the end game, or preferring leveling gameplay should be "right" and the other should be "wrong".
Originally posted by Zapzap I much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".
Thats where your wrong.
You see leveling as somethign stupid. Leveling is where your game begins not End game. please get off the end game high horse because end game is stupid.
How can I be wrong, it's my opinion? I prefer games without "end game", that's it. Games where the gameplay doesn't drastically change once you reach some "cap".
And I think I was respectful in my posts, too bad you didn't return the favor.
To say it differently, I don't even mind if there's a "max level", as long as it doesn't drastically change the way the game plays. Being suddenly forced into dungeons/raids when you were enjoying exploring an open world before sucks (for me).
UO, AC1, GW2. Those games have it.
I also enjoyed games with the "max level end game" design, but I got really tired of them. I prefer when the gameplay becomes available at level 1 instead of having to wait for some max level to get access to specific content.
As far as a numeric leveling system... I think Shadowbane was one of the best... There really wasn't a max lvl and eventually you got to the point where you hit a soft cap where further leveling resulted in diminishing returns...
A lvl 50 could still take out a lvl 70 because the real difference was minimal at best and with a skilled player they could take out much higher level opponents.
The trouble is when levels are applied to the Themepark model because gaining a level can be a drastic change gaining a new ability that is infinitely better than the prior level. Considering that gameplay is so hard coded around this level system you can't simply flip a switch and make it unlimited.
I would loved to see games take 3-6 months to hit cap and the journey being the game rather than the ridiculous concept of this "EndGame"
This was really the old school where when you existed in the game world and not just in some lobby or queue area waiting for some dungeonfinder to pop.
So... the general consensus is multiple months. I like that.
In a themepark I would say yes because generally the progression is the game you want it to last longer.
In another type of game it depends on the game. If have horizontal progression that can last for months that fine. If you have a game that's based around other things then level progression it doesn't matter if you level up fast.
Personaly in current Themepark games between 3 to 6 months but that's just me. because I know in those same themepark games I play many reach max level between 2 to 6 weeks. They are just playing the game differently and perhaps with more playtime then I have.
To be honost I don't care how long it might take to reach cap lvl. I care about if the journey is fun and if I have a certain freedom within that journey. That's the only thing I like to last, end game is often the moment I stop playing as the game turns mostly into a multiplayer games with fantasy settings. I prefure FPS multiplayer games for that type of gameplay.
Above is mean towards themepark games because it's different with a sandbox MMORPG or virtual world MMORPG. As then I can really take my time.
I am a casual player, to me that just means I have a limited amount of time I will play a MMORPG but could care less about how long it would take to reach max level. Eventually I will reach it all in my own time.
It should be a system similar to pre-NGE SWG (skill tree, you get a maximum number of points at max experience, choose any combination of skills in the trees you want, and can respec at cost to points which needs to be re-earned).
I agree that there shouldn't be a max level, there should be no endgame, the game should be fun from day one and never stop being fun. I'm even good with a wholly level-less game, where it's all skill-based. Where I get really bored is the idea that there is a single ideal best-build for each class, that you have to have your skill points a certain way so you can use certain spells, carry a certain weapon and wear certain armor so everyone ends up being clones of each other. There should be no min-maxing, there should be no "best" anything, every character ought to be able to choose whatever weapons they want and through a manipulation of their skills, produce a character that is generally equivalent to everyone else.
I've thought long and hard about this. I've come to the idea that no less then 2 weeks /played for max level. And that's only for the F2P/content locusts.
1. About 10 hours (tutorial to ease you into mechanics and the base lore) then off to an endgame that almost all development resources went into creating
2. About 400 hours (in my case about 4-5 months, for more casual maybe 2 years) complete with side kicking and grinds for epic items along the way. Basically an end game with levels added.
It took me roughly 40 days played to reach level 70 in WoW. I was completely ok with that. There was grind. There was alot of running/riding around, but I had fun. I loved my undead rogue. I liked the way he looked, the way he ran, and the way he played. I loved the world. I spent many hours in open world pvp while leveling up and had some epic 1v1's. I loved battlegrounds. When I hit max level I ran tons of dungeons and competed in the arena. I still would roam for world pvp and frequent the battlegrounds.
I had fun.
I would prefer the next major mmo I play to have at least 25+ days played to reach max level, with the caveat that it is fun and that I can sense the power level increasing.
End game is important to me, but so is the leveling. Leveling should be lengthy, but enjoyable. End game needs to be varied and progressive as well. WoW was the only mmo I really felt combined these and other elements into the most cohesive whole, despite it's issues.
Another mmo that got it right was City of Heroes imo. Mainly because of the intensive character creation options and the ability to create a short bio for your character that anyone could read. This increased my bond with my character in-game. For some reason I felt a similar connection to my rogue, but that probably has alot to do with just how smooth and enjoyable he was to play.
It took me roughly 40 days played to reach level 70 in WoW. I was completely ok with that. There was grind. There was alot of running/riding around, but I had fun. I loved my undead rogue. I liked the way he looked, the way he ran, and the way he played. I loved the world. I spent many hours in open world pvp while leveling up and had some epic 1v1's. I loved battlegrounds. When I hit max level I ran tons of dungeons and competed in the arena. I still would roam for world pvp and frequent the battlegrounds.
I had fun.
I would prefer the next major mmo I play to have at least 25+ days played to reach max level, with the caveat that it is fun and that I can sense the power level increasing.
End game is important to me, but so is the leveling. Leveling should be lengthy, but enjoyable. End game needs to be varied and progressive as well. WoW was the only mmo I really felt combined these and other elements into the most cohesive whole, despite it's issues.
Another mmo that got it right was City of Heroes imo. Mainly because of the intensive character creation options and the ability to create a short bio for your character that anyone could read. This increased my bond with my character in-game. For some reason I felt a similar connection to my rogue, but that probably has alot to do with just how smooth and enjoyable he was to play.
40 days played means one level every 14 hours of playing... You sure you played the same WoW as the rest of us?
Well I solo'd almost the entire way, and I didn't state exactly how many hours I spent pvpíng in open world and battlegrounds while leveling, but I can safely say it was ALOT. I quit playing WoW right at the end of Wotlk, and within roughly one year of playing the game had completed about 85% of the Battlemaster title.
Lol it took me 3 months to get to 50 in WoW when I first started, greatest 3 months ever. But thats a story for another time. Anywhosie, the rest of you want no levels? So you want everyone to be equal ALL the time? Sounds kinda bland if you ask me.
Comments
^^This^^
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
How can I be wrong, it's my opinion? I prefer games without "end game", that's it. Games where the gameplay doesn't drastically change once you reach some "cap".
And I think I was respectful in my posts, too bad you didn't return the favor.
My computer is better than yours.
It should be slow enough to make meaningful use of the areas players progress through.
One thing, I've had a problem with in games from the last decade, is how most of the content zoomed past before I could enjoy it to the fullest. I never got to truly master a dungeon or to pass on that mastery to new people comming up..There would have been a lot of game to enjoy while leveling, but I was forced past it at atleast twice the pace I would have liked.
If the vaunted end game is going to be to go to the same dungeons day after day, I should at least have to go through lower level dungeons more than once. The devs have put just as much effort into lower the level content and there is a hell of a lot more of it, so why are they leveling the players out of it by stuffing xp down their throats. It always seemed so idiotic that they would deliberately rush everyone into the last 10% of the game.
We dont need a 50 level tutorial.. we know how everything works before we even try it.. although if you are new to MMOs you would probably take 10-30 minutes or so to figure out the basics..
This ^^^. How can a preference be wrong?
I don't see why preferring the end game, or preferring leveling gameplay should be "right" and the other should be "wrong".
A good game will not make a player think "How much game time do I need to reach max level?".
Anyway, back to topic, with the recent trend of games, it should take about 2 to 5 days game time.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
To say it differently, I don't even mind if there's a "max level", as long as it doesn't drastically change the way the game plays. Being suddenly forced into dungeons/raids when you were enjoying exploring an open world before sucks (for me).
UO, AC1, GW2. Those games have it.
I also enjoyed games with the "max level end game" design, but I got really tired of them. I prefer when the gameplay becomes available at level 1 instead of having to wait for some max level to get access to specific content.
My computer is better than yours.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Agreed, and 'End Game' should be no different than what you are doing when you level.
As far as a numeric leveling system... I think Shadowbane was one of the best... There really wasn't a max lvl and eventually you got to the point where you hit a soft cap where further leveling resulted in diminishing returns...
A lvl 50 could still take out a lvl 70 because the real difference was minimal at best and with a skilled player they could take out much higher level opponents.
The trouble is when levels are applied to the Themepark model because gaining a level can be a drastic change gaining a new ability that is infinitely better than the prior level. Considering that gameplay is so hard coded around this level system you can't simply flip a switch and make it unlimited.
I would loved to see games take 3-6 months to hit cap and the journey being the game rather than the ridiculous concept of this "EndGame"
This was really the old school where when you existed in the game world and not just in some lobby or queue area waiting for some dungeonfinder to pop.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
So... the general consensus is multiple months. I like that.
In a themepark I would say yes because generally the progression is the game you want it to last longer.
In another type of game it depends on the game. If have horizontal progression that can last for months that fine. If you have a game that's based around other things then level progression it doesn't matter if you level up fast.
Personaly in current Themepark games between 3 to 6 months but that's just me. because I know in those same themepark games I play many reach max level between 2 to 6 weeks. They are just playing the game differently and perhaps with more playtime then I have.
To be honost I don't care how long it might take to reach cap lvl. I care about if the journey is fun and if I have a certain freedom within that journey. That's the only thing I like to last, end game is often the moment I stop playing as the game turns mostly into a multiplayer games with fantasy settings. I prefure FPS multiplayer games for that type of gameplay.
Above is mean towards themepark games because it's different with a sandbox MMORPG or virtual world MMORPG. As then I can really take my time.
I am a casual player, to me that just means I have a limited amount of time I will play a MMORPG but could care less about how long it would take to reach max level. Eventually I will reach it all in my own time.
Why do you care about a general consensus?
I pick games based on what i prefer, not whether others agree or not.
It shouldn't even be about levels at all.
It should be a system similar to pre-NGE SWG (skill tree, you get a maximum number of points at max experience, choose any combination of skills in the trees you want, and can respec at cost to points which needs to be re-earned).
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I've thought long and hard about this. I've come to the idea that no less then 2 weeks /played for max level. And that's only for the F2P/content locusts.
Normal people should take a month or so.
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
1. About 10 hours (tutorial to ease you into mechanics and the base lore) then off to an endgame that almost all development resources went into creating
2. About 400 hours (in my case about 4-5 months, for more casual maybe 2 years) complete with side kicking and grinds for epic items along the way. Basically an end game with levels added.
It took me roughly 40 days played to reach level 70 in WoW. I was completely ok with that. There was grind. There was alot of running/riding around, but I had fun. I loved my undead rogue. I liked the way he looked, the way he ran, and the way he played. I loved the world. I spent many hours in open world pvp while leveling up and had some epic 1v1's. I loved battlegrounds. When I hit max level I ran tons of dungeons and competed in the arena. I still would roam for world pvp and frequent the battlegrounds.
I had fun.
I would prefer the next major mmo I play to have at least 25+ days played to reach max level, with the caveat that it is fun and that I can sense the power level increasing.
End game is important to me, but so is the leveling. Leveling should be lengthy, but enjoyable. End game needs to be varied and progressive as well. WoW was the only mmo I really felt combined these and other elements into the most cohesive whole, despite it's issues.
Another mmo that got it right was City of Heroes imo. Mainly because of the intensive character creation options and the ability to create a short bio for your character that anyone could read. This increased my bond with my character in-game. For some reason I felt a similar connection to my rogue, but that probably has alot to do with just how smooth and enjoyable he was to play.
40 days played means one level every 14 hours of playing... You sure you played the same WoW as the rest of us?
Well I solo'd almost the entire way, and I didn't state exactly how many hours I spent pvpíng in open world and battlegrounds while leveling, but I can safely say it was ALOT. I quit playing WoW right at the end of Wotlk, and within roughly one year of playing the game had completed about 85% of the Battlemaster title.
Just go the Age Of Wulin way.
For those who don't know about cultivation system of AOW http://ageofwushu.wikia.com/wiki/Cultivation