Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is the community damned?
ozmono
Member UncommonPosts: 1,211
We've all heard the doom and gloom about MMOs. They are stagnant, incapable of change and at the same time never as good as they were and have changed too much. They are tab targeting, they are action combat. They are too hardcore, they aren't hardcore enough. They have stylized graphics, they have realistic graphics. Hopefully I don't need to give more examples and a pattern is appearing.
The pattern I refer to is that for every positive there is usually someone who views it as a negative. Every reaction having an opposite reaction and all that. It becomes a problem though when people start trashing the entire genre for the perceived faults of a few games. Not only are they misrepresenting the truth to readers less in the know but they are depriving themselves of opportunities to be grateful for the things they do enjoy and as such also the opportunity to come in here to talk, think and focus on positive things rather than negatives.
Depriving ourselves for the most part of having positive conversations with likeminded people isn't why I question if we are damned though. Something far more disturbing happens here and it happens almost as regularly as the doom and gloom about the industry.
I'm talking about the doom and gloom about this community and others. You don't have to go far to hear someone complain about all of the self entitled jerks or the bastards too loose with their wallets supposably granting companies immunity to sell us crap and so on and so on. The difference here is people who generalize aren't just talking about a video game genre and unfairly trashing it based upon the experiences of a few games but rather people, who are far more diverse than games and can offer so much more.
If one is depriving themselves by generalizing and subsequently trashing an entire genre of games how much more deprived are they by having an unfair generalization of human kind?
The problem doesn't stop with the individuals depriving themselves of something greater, it creates a culture. Most of our actions good and bad have an influence on other people and when people constantly bad mouth others it creates a lot of hostility between two opposing viewpoints and it also (just as it does with our MMO discussions) misinforms people who don't understand the whole thing quite aswell.
So now that I've established what I see as a problem, I ask are we doomed as a community? Will the culture that thrives in this community be nasty generalizations aimed at each other? Will we respectfully disagree or will we seek to humiliate and put down people of different viewpoints? Will we focus on the good or on the bad?
Personally I obviously hope we can create a better culture here but I do view it as pretty hostile as I do most of the internet. I'm not even sure it's reversible and wonder if it will get worse as more and more people unleash on each other over something as trivial as video game preferences. All I can do as can any ordinary member is change ourselves. So I'll guess I'll have to try to look for the diamonds in the rough and restrain myself at times. Thanks for reading and please don't forget to let me know what you think.
Comments
I respect your post but I think you may be looking a little deep here.
First of all, I haven't seen anyone complain about an MMO being too hardcore in 10 years. Just sayin . . .
Second, those who are being vocal about this genre being stagnant are no different than those who have been vocal about other genres, such as Space Sims, Isometric RPG's and Adventure Games. The complaints here signify that there is a demand for a challenging, immersive MMO. The problem here is simple: that demand is not being met with supply.
Now that's not to say that things won't change. Because they probably will, hopefully soon. With the other genres, we've seen kickstarter provide exactly what the market demanded when publishers were unwilling to fill the void. I see no reason to criticize those who are expressing an interest in a product that doesn't exist in regards to MMO's. Because that's basically what people are vocalizing here. They've had a taste of what's possible from the classic, difficult and immersive games of the past and they want someone to explore that particular branch a bit further.
Call it "doom & gloom" if you will - I interpret it as "a call to arms".
"The good things don't always soften the bad things, but vice-versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things and make them unimportant"
Thanks for respectfully disagreeing but I think you are missing the point somewhat. In your defence it doesn't seem as though you are need of it and I left it until half way until my thread was finished to actually get on the real issue so I'm sorry for that. I'll address what you said regardless though.
I haven't seen anyone call it too hardcore often recently either I must confess but I have heard people mention it in other ways. Such as when they talk about features missing that apparently take the "hardcore" out of the game. Like good (interactive) maps and even compasses and so on. Sometimes they just remark they are looking for a casual game. The point being although I haven't really heard many people recently complain about the game being too hardcore it has happened in other ways. I was just trying to sum it up nicely and make the point of one thing being positive in someones books whilst at the same time being negative in another persons books.
Secondly I'm not meaning to have a shot at people who believe the genre is stagnant anymore than I'm trying to have a shot at people who think it reached it's peak with UO or some ancient MMO and that those games should essentially just be cloned. Again I was just trying to point out the nature of differing viewpoints colourfully.
I would be very happy if someone read this and interpret it as "a call to arms" but only for the right reasons and I think I may have done a pretty crappy job of displaying those reasons. Nevertheless thanks for taking the time to respond.
Problem really is: it is hard to satisfy an educated customer. It is much easier to satisfy your typical customer who is brainwashed by television, press and advertisments.
That's why there are restaurants that cost like 10 or 20 times more to dine in than your typical place. That's why there are cars that cost 100 times more than your typical car. And so on.
It's not about demand and supply. Or rather, it is, but the demand is not just "give me this" but "give me this and I will pay for all your expenses and give you a good margin on top of that".
A guy who really worked to achieve a big social status or good amount of wealth. And he is well educated in manners of food, or cars. And he says "I'm not satisfied with this shit you're trying to give me". And THAT is demand. And so, supply comes. Someone says "Okay, seeing that to pay 10x more than a typical guy is no problem for you, I could arrange something special that would suit your tastes". And that's how three-michlen star restaurants, ferarri and companies like that work.
Problem with MMORPGs is, there is no wealthy demand for it. Have you seen people saying "I'd pay a $100 sub for a such-and-such MMO"? Or how about "I would pay $600 for a B2P MMO? Nope. Not happening.
So, there truly is NO DEMAND. It's an illusion created by vocal minority. They make it sound like there is a demand while there isn't. But people who have the money (investors, publishers, independant developers) are smart enough not to be fooled by smoke and mirrors (or they wouldn't get to where they are now). So naturally, they don't react.
I personally believe video games are art projects, and as such are commodities subject to Say's law. There could certainly one day be b2p products that cost $600 or more, but simply as yet the market has yielded no such precedent.
edit : oh, except kickstarter and similar programs, but not in retail.
Ooooh , juicy juicy post that I've been waiting for! Not to sound condescending - I'm being literal. Because when you say that "there is no wealthy demand for it" then I challenge you to Kickstarter and raise you Star Citizen!
Yours are the exact words of publishers and other people who thought that the Space-Sim genre would never recover from it's 10-year hiatus. I don't blame you at all for believing the same of classic MMO's - hell, even Chris Roberts was skeptical that his game would hit a few million dollars in funding goals. Needless to stay, Star Citizen is at 26 million and rising fast in funding, with an average pledge of $90 a person and 300,000 donors. What does this tell us? That the gamers of 1999 - the ones who want immersion, challenge and mature content have shit-loads of money. So much money, in fact, that they'd gamble it on just the idea of the possibility of their desired game being made.
The only difference between the "call-to-arms" classic MMO crowd and the recently-rescued Isometrc RPG' genre, Space Sim genre and Adventure Game genre, is that our hardcore MMO genre game simply hasn't been announced yet. I'd bet bottom dollar that there is an independent developer out there that's going to crowd-fund what we want if a publisher doesn't pick it up soon. Supply and demand indeed!
This idea that there "truly is no demand" is as absurd as saying that the entire genre is dead. Neither are true. If Kickstarter has taught us anything, it's that there is a huge demand that is not being met with many types of games. The reasons for this are many, but none are that there is "no demand". Rather than trying to marginalize a large group of consumers who want a product, why not just admit that you don't know what's in store for the future, but hopefully everyone will get what they want? That's the right attitude, in my opinion.
I don't think that we are damned. I think that we are the perfect representation of a slice of the world.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
The "community" here on MMORPG.COM isn't damned at all, it just appears to be fractious because it encompasses a very wide selection of gamers.
Human nature dictates that those that are happy go about their business humming a happy tune and getting a good night's sleep. Those that are unhappy about something can be found picketing some institution and/or standing on soapboxes loudly complaining. They are the "activists" that are out trying to change things "for the better".
In MMORPG terms, those that are happy are playing the games, those that are not are on the forums crying. There is a small portion of the dialogue in these forums that does not consist of complaining or countering complaints, but probably not more than 25%.
Human nature also dictates that people will complain until their desires are met. Then they'll be happy and go off to enjoy the fruits of their efforts. However, as soon as they vacate the soapboxes, the next group jumps on to complain about the changes that were made to placate the first group, because those changes don't suit THEM at all...
I tend to agree with your sentiment. Doesn't mean I think it's wrong, either. I think it's a good thing that people express their desires. If they didn't, how would the economy/institutions know that there is demand for something? It's amazing to hear the interviews with Brian Fargo, Chris Avellone, Chris Roberts and more game designers that had recent success in reviving "dead" genres. They suspected, but didn't know for sure, that there was a market for their games. Turns out that the vocal minority calling for their games were actually representative of huge numbers of gamers that didn't speak their minds. I'm sure it's the same here regarding the more challenging, classic MMO archetype. For every 1 person that speaks up, there are 10 more that are feeling the same but not advocating.
I am sorry but this is an incorrect example, in my opinion.
Star Citizen is not mainly an MMO, but mainly a Space Sim. We're talking about MMOs here. Also...
Star Citizen is not the case of people paying big amounts of money for games! Don't you know EA plans to price their games 80$ (or so) in the very nearest future? And other companies will probably follow suit. 60$ is a common price for a game nowadays. So $90 is not a really big amount for a game, ESPECIALLY when you consider the fact that it's not that people paid $90 (on average) for a game ONLY - they paid for much more (stickers, packages, maps, model kits, dinners with people and other sorts of rewards).
So yeah, this is nothing special. It's just a case of smart people deciding to not risk their own capital but rather get an interest-free investment into their business by using the people who are willing to do such investment.
But really, the main point is that you try to make it sound like "publishers and other people" try to deny you your MMO treat like some sort of bad parents that tell you that "you no take candy" or something like that. It's absolutely not the case!
Believe it or not, PUBLISHERS WOULD ABSOULTELY LOVE TO TAKE YOUR MONEY! To make you satisfied and take as much as you are willing to pay for that from you. That's how fucking business works!
However, creating a modern computer game is EXTREMELY COSTY. Very much so. Gone are the days of pong, pac-man or tetris, where a single dude could create a masterpiece that everybody around the world would play for ages.
Therefore, you cannot make a AAA-class product for a very niche audience that is not willing to pay much more than usual price for it. it's just not competitive.
Kickstarter is good for what it is - it allows people to risk their money to get something they want to be done. Because investors and publshers cannot risk their money, it's the nature of business. You do not invest into something that "may give you profit", you calculate chances of outcomes and decide accordingly. If you're not sure if something will work out and have no chance to assess it, you should only consider it if it's going to more than double your investment - like, you invest $1 000 000 and receive $2 000 000 multiplied by the precent you'd get by simply putting it in bank for the same length of time. But there's more, why risk if you can safely get an interest? So it turns out, risking your money should have an even bigger payout to be worth it. So yes, that's why "publishers and people" don't make first steps in this direction, but it rather comes from indie developers and kickstarter.
However....
As you said yourself, SS got a quite big audience of 300 000 people investing in it. Those are not its audience - those are just the people who want the game so much they're willing to risk their own money, for once, and give a loan with no interest as well. The target audience, one assumes, must be much bigger. Those people, every one of them, have a kind of similar expectations from a space sim. Is there really much to debate in space sim genre? I mean, I'm a big fan on Space Sim, and I can tell you, yes I prefer the control feel, combat style and UI and theme of the game "Independance War II" and consider it the best space sim I ever played, every space sim out there is pretty enjoyable to me too, assuming it's played with a joystick (I enjoyed Freelancer, but I prefer joystick-y sims after all). All there must be is a "good" sim, I don't need, say, exact trade mechanics, exact piracy mechanics, exact reputation mechanics, exact theme, exact .... Same goes for most space sim fans I assume - we're here for the SIM. For a space simulation. To play as a pilot of a spacecraft.
Do you have such an amount of people that would be willing to agree on all the points of an MMO? I mean, not people who scream "I want a different MMO", every one of them having his own meaning of "different", but people who want THE SAME different MMO? You saw camelot kickstarter - yes, successful, but only 15K people. That's very little. And even then, this is not a game many people want - it didn't work like SS, it didn't gather all the people "longing for a good MMO" out there. Because many people want a different MMO. And that showed when people actually hated the camelot, there was a lot of negativism towards the project, people criticizing it's goals, it's design decisions. I don't remember space sim fans criticizing SS.
In the end, all SS example proves is that yes, there was a big amount of people interested in a space sim, and a person who was capable of creating a product for them appeared, and they gave him their money.
Good.
However, this does not mean that it is the same thing in MMOs, at all. As the OP stated, in MMOs there is an unending debate of what is good and what is bad. Every feature someone considers good is considered detrimental and game-breaking for someone else. In terms of space sims, it would be fights for mouse vs joystick control (God forbid you allow both), trade vs no trade, full loot vs just rewards for kills and respawn for the killed, aim assisted weapons vs manual aim, fast moving / instant hitting projectiles vs slower moving "bullet hell" style, sci-fi vs reallism, solar system vs distant fictional universe, and so on and so on and so on.
Therefore, we must consider every set of mutually exclusive rules to be a separate "want different MMO" group. And in each of such group, there are not that many people. In order for such a small group of people to be able to get their "supply", they'd have to pay way over market price, which they can not.
The amount of people interested in a space sim is clearly enough to justify a game made for them - this is not the case of Ferarri, not by a long shot. But the amount of people interested in an MMO (which agree to all the key features and parameters) is very small.
Ok then. We will take our money elsewhere.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
One thing we can all agree on is that were all looking for something solid. MMOs are being made cheap easy and short.
Everyone has their own awkward way of arguing their case.
If we could someday get a well built mmo, that is large with some social interaction, that can last for years I think we would have very little bitching !..........Until then we just have fast out the door games, some are not even mmos.
If mmo offers total freedom in open world with dynamic weather system high AI by mobs and npc's, gameworld that constantly change so no wiki/guide or any cheats to limit no cheaters anymore and games more developed around complex story and gameplay instead of the spoonfed and graphical we get now im back in untill then i stay away from all mmo's.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I agree that there seems to be a tremendous rift between gamers who say they love MMO's. And I think it all revolves around the term "Hardcore"
These seem to be the most vocal group at least. And the whole issue that divides us seems rather simple too. MMO's are just not "Hardcore" enough for these people. And thats fine I understand where they are coming from. The problem is every discussion quickly descends into " you are a moron for playing easy themepark MMO's" followed by " And you hardcore guys are elitist jerks" And it spirals down from there. Every time.
I don't see any hope on the horizon unless someone appeases the "Hardcores" with that perfect sandbox they keep searching for. I am hoping they find it soon. But doubtful.
Until that time tho I have made a decision not to comment on 2 types of threads.
1) the doom and gloomer who says MMO's are dead
2) The looking for a game threads, which I see as just a variation of number 1. No matter how many games you list they will find fault in all of them.
While none of this solves the problem it does make me feel a little better!
And its all about me!! Right guys?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
There are strong opinions and desires scattered throughout the community that do not always mesh well
(And on almost any topic! lol)
It would be nice if "we" could tone it down a notch (or three), but passion for a subject makes that difficult. This is similar to the fallacy of "world peace." If everyone could agree on "the right way", it would happen, don't you think? If THAT happened, then I could see this community declining without debate and "fighting." What would we post other than "I agree!" posts, in their many, varied forms? Where would the "discussion" come into play?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
One important thing that you MUST remember is this.
The minority usually makes themself heard. People who are content has no reason to write about anything, while people who are mad will try to make other people think like them. They're usually the minority, but they make sure that they're heard.
most gamers do not use messageboards
EQ2 fan sites
I there's a big appetite for "something new" in the genre. The Kickstarts for MMOs have been smaller than for SC I think because there is a big commitment to be made to kickstarting an MMO both in time and money. This is the case with me, I backed one of them, if it turns out like I want I'll be obviously playing it as my main game for a long time to come, so I'm not going to back another MMO no matter how promising it looks.
Someone who wanted to back both Star Citizen and Elite wouldn't have the same issue. But I think if one of these indie MMOs really nails it and looks awesome when it comes out, you will see a lot of people say "well maybe it doesn't tick all my boxes but I'll try it." People want what they want but most people will settle for something available if it's even close to what they want.
I like your post OP.
It's a bit frustrating when reading a post that is constructive at first like the "I think it is over." thread, only to then find out that most of these people and most who agree but not all, actually believe that those who like what they don't are sheep or brainwashed...heck even morons, all because what we like they can't stand.(Not directed to the op of this thread).
The day all people come to realize "Okay I don't like it, but they do, so to me the game is simple and lame, but I am not going to then say that those who like it are this and that."
I try to get where some of those guys are coming from but it's hard when they take something and blow it out of proportion and then start generalizing people who enjoy something they don't.
Example I have huge dislike for P2P model, but never shall I believe those who like P2P games are morons or brainwashed. Hell it may don't seem like it but even when people who like P2P games make ignorant statements against F2P and B2P games, I still don't believe their idiots.
People might be questioning where this is coming from, but I take notes in my head as I read,I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't see this on a regular basis.
If a MMORPG was tailored to these complainers they would only be replaced unfortunately and hell even they might complain about something, I know for fact MMORPGs back then had a lot of issues and hell could probably be seen as easier than some of the MMORPGs currently to people.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I think the MMO community is unique unto other genre's communities. An MMO by design is a constantly changing entity. It goes through tweaks, patches, expansions, overhauls on a constant basis.
I think this aspect gives way to a more hands on community. MMO gamers feel it is their responsibility to the genre to provide feedback. Most other genres push a game out and the majority of gamers take it at face value. Its either a hit or a miss resulting in either a stay or a move on to something else. There are of course people who still give their feedback on any game in any forum all over the internet. But the mmo is unique because it is an overall accepted standard to critique, and offer ways to improve, change an mmo.
So of course you are going to have much more friction on a forum because everybody has their own ideas to offer up. Their own preferences. If someone feels that they see a pattern of design elements not going in the direction they personally prefer, the whole genre is going down the toilet. Others its going in the right direction. Others still, take what they like and leave the rest. There are thousands of people who post here. None of them agree on everything.
Its just the nature of the beast. Its also why MMO discussion is so interesting compared to other genres because it was born to a community and molded by it.
No wall of text needed to express how I feel:
o People who DO like the direction the genre has taken, blame the bad on people who DO NOT.
o People who DO NOT like the direction the genre has taken, blame the bad on people who DO.
It's classic FanBoy vs. Hater polarization. The community has achieved this status by forcing individuals to take sides.
Something that could definitely change the atmosphere of the community is moderation. I am not talking about stricter moderation but more consistent or... well... other things.
There are a lot of people here that are passionate about their games and a lot of people that are very knowledgeable about the games and the industry. However, the tone of any online community is wholly driven by its community management team and its moderators. I'll leave it at that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There are a lot of people here that are passionate about their games and a lot of people that are very knowledgeable about the games and the industry. However, the tone of any online community is wholly driven by its community management team and its moderators. I'll leave it at that.
I moderated a gaming forum for about ten years. Great community there. One thing that helped tremendously was that we had a "Fight Club" subforum. Any sort of rant topic or jaded topic would be moved there. Threads werent deleted and posters were not moderated there. You had to agree to a disclaimer that you know full well offensive and negative material is in this subforum. If constructive threads got hijacked, we could cut the off topic threads and create a new thread in the Fight Club subforum.
Thats how we did it. Worked for years. Nobody got banned or all pissy. And the general gaming forum consisted mainly of constructive, lively, and civil debates.
This place should really think about doing something like this. I click on recent forum posts and probably a third of them could be moved to a Fight Club style subforum.
I really like that idea!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre