Ooooh , juicy juicy post that I've been waiting for! Not to sound condescending - I'm being literal. Because when you say that "there is no wealthy demand for it" then I challenge you to Kickstarter and raise you Star Citizen!
Yours are the exact words of publishers and other people who thought that the Space-Sim genre would never recover from it's 10-year hiatus. I don't blame you at all for believing the same of classic MMO's - hell, even Chris Roberts was skeptical that his game would hit a few million dollars in funding goals. Needless to stay, Star Citizen is at 26 million and rising fast in funding, with an average pledge of $90 a person and 300,000 donors. What does this tell us? That the gamers of 1999 - the ones who want immersion, challenge and mature content have shit-loads of money. So much money, in fact, that they'd gamble it on just the idea of the possibility of their desired game being made.
I am sorry but this is an incorrect example, in my opinion.
Star Citizen is not mainly an MMO, but mainly a Space Sim. We're talking about MMOs here. Also...
Star Citizen is not the case of people paying big amounts of money for games! Don't you know EA plans to price their games 80$ (or so) in the very nearest future? And other companies will probably follow suit. 60$ is a common price for a game nowadays. So $90 is not a really big amount for a game, ESPECIALLY when you consider the fact that it's not that people paid $90 (on average) for a game ONLY - they paid for much more (stickers, packages, maps, model kits, dinners with people and other sorts of rewards).
So yeah, this is nothing special. It's just a case of smart people deciding to not risk their own capital but rather get an interest-free investment into their business by using the people who are willing to do such investment.
But really, the main point is that you try to make it sound like "publishers and other people" try to deny you your MMO treat like some sort of bad parents that tell you that "you no take candy" or something like that. It's absolutely not the case!
Believe it or not, PUBLISHERS WOULD ABSOULTELY LOVE TO TAKE YOUR MONEY! To make you satisfied and take as much as you are willing to pay for that from you. That's how fucking business works!
However, creating a modern computer game is EXTREMELY COSTY. Very much so. Gone are the days of pong, pac-man or tetris, where a single dude could create a masterpiece that everybody around the world would play for ages.
Therefore, you cannot make a AAA-class product for a very niche audience that is not willing to pay much more than usual price for it. it's just not competitive.
Kickstarter is good for what it is - it allows people to risk their money to get something they want to be done. Because investors and publshers cannot risk their money, it's the nature of business. You do not invest into something that "may give you profit", you calculate chances of outcomes and decide accordingly. If you're not sure if something will work out and have no chance to assess it, you should only consider it if it's going to more than double your investment - like, you invest $1 000 000 and receive $2 000 000 multiplied by the precent you'd get by simply putting it in bank for the same length of time. But there's more, why risk if you can safely get an interest? So it turns out, risking your money should have an even bigger payout to be worth it. So yes, that's why "publishers and people" don't make first steps in this direction, but it rather comes from indie developers and kickstarter.
However....
As you said yourself, SS got a quite big audience of 300 000 people investing in it. Those are not its audience - those are just the people who want the game so much they're willing to risk their own money, for once, and give a loan with no interest as well. The target audience, one assumes, must be much bigger. Those people, every one of them, have a kind of similar expectations from a space sim. Is there really much to debate in space sim genre? I mean, I'm a big fan on Space Sim, and I can tell you, yes I prefer the control feel, combat style and UI and theme of the game "Independance War II" and consider it the best space sim I ever played, every space sim out there is pretty enjoyable to me too, assuming it's played with a joystick (I enjoyed Freelancer, but I prefer joystick-y sims after all). All there must be is a "good" sim, I don't need, say, exact trade mechanics, exact piracy mechanics, exact reputation mechanics, exact theme, exact .... Same goes for most space sim fans I assume - we're here for the SIM. For a space simulation. To play as a pilot of a spacecraft.
Do you have such an amount of people that would be willing to agree on all the points of an MMO? I mean, not people who scream "I want a different MMO", every one of them having his own meaning of "different", but people who want THE SAME different MMO? You saw camelot kickstarter - yes, successful, but only 15K people. That's very little. And even then, this is not a game many people want - it didn't work like SS, it didn't gather all the people "longing for a good MMO" out there. Because many people want a different MMO. And that showed when people actually hated the camelot, there was a lot of negativism towards the project, people criticizing it's goals, it's design decisions. I don't remember space sim fans criticizing SS.
In the end, all SS example proves is that yes, there was a big amount of people interested in a space sim, and a person who was capable of creating a product for them appeared, and they gave him their money.
Good.
However, this does not mean that it is the same thing in MMOs, at all. As the OP stated, in MMOs there is an unending debate of what is good and what is bad. Every feature someone considers good is considered detrimental and game-breaking for someone else. In terms of space sims, it would be fights for mouse vs joystick control (God forbid you allow both), trade vs no trade, full loot vs just rewards for kills and respawn for the killed, aim assisted weapons vs manual aim, fast moving / instant hitting projectiles vs slower moving "bullet hell" style, sci-fi vs reallism, solar system vs distant fictional universe, and so on and so on and so on.
Therefore, we must consider every set of mutually exclusive rules to be a separate "want different MMO" group. And in each of such group, there are not that many people. In order for such a small group of people to be able to get their "supply", they'd have to pay way over market price, which they can not.
The amount of people interested in a space sim is clearly enough to justify a game made for them - this is not the case of Ferarri, not by a long shot. But the amount of people interested in an MMO (which agree to all the key features and parameters) is very small.
I read your entire post.
You clearly have done very little research on crowd-funding - if you had, you'd realize that AAA publishers don't always fill the gaps in the market even if there is profit to be made. This is not 6th grade economics - it's reality. Publishers have many reasons to not fund certain genres and games even if they are profitable. Profitability in itself is not the only reason to make a game. How much profit is a bigger factor. How much risk is a bigger factor. How much certainty of success is a bigger factor. The following lectures on crowd-funding from famous developers will help you understand this: Brian Fargo formerly of Interplay & Chris Avellone of Obsidian & Chris Roberts formerly of Origin & EA - please watch these lectures to understand what's really going on in the gaming market right now.
Your assertions that the people who are wanting a classic, difficult MMO are so fractured in their desires that their game cannot be made is backed up with absolutely zero evidence. Nobody knows what's possible as crowd-funding is a new phenomenon. You're entire argument is based on the premise that "if there was demand it would already have been met" when that theory is already debunked. You also try to use the only MMO that's been attempted on Kickstarter thus far, Camelot Unchained as an example of failure when it was actually a success. Hello? It worked?
I was comparing Star Citizen's success as a genre to the possibility of success in the MMORPG industry. I was stating that the other genres had naysayers just like you, constantly bleating about how "isometric RPG"s are dead because Dragon Age derp derp" etc, and "Space sims are dead because Eve Online derp derp" etc. Classic MMORPG's look nothing like what we see today. They are a different game entirely, not just a couple of different features in the same game. The community is probably not as "fractured" as you might assert - how the hell would you even know?
Also, Star Citizen is not a financial "investment" or "loan" that people are making into the game - it's a charity/gamble that people are making to just to have the possibility of playing the game that they want. There is no recourse if the game fails. And the community did not "choose" 95% the features in the game. The devleoper did. This idea that an MMO can never be crowd-funded because there are "too many differing opinions" of how to make it is ludicrous. The people funding the game are not making the game.
Clearly, if this forum is any indication- there is demand. Clearly, if my time on Project 1999 EQ emulated server (20,000+ users) is any indication - there is demand. We won't know how much demand there is until a decent classic-archetype MMO shows up in Kickstarter or crowd-funding. Since the crowd-funding phenom just started, there's plenty of time to find out. But to basically assert that people here are a "super-minority of whiners that will never get what they want" is laughably ridiculous and is backed up by zero evidence.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by FoomerangI moderated a gaming forum for about ten years. Great community there. One thing that helped tremendously was that we had a "Fight Club" subforum. Any sort of rant topic or jaded topic would be moved there. Threads werent deleted and posters were not moderated there. You had to agree to a disclaimer that you know full well offensive and negative material is in this subforum. If constructive threads got hijacked, we could cut the off topic threads and create a new thread in the Fight Club subforum.Thats how we did it. Worked for years. Nobody got banned or all pissy. And the general gaming forum consisted mainly of constructive, lively, and civil debates.This place should really think about doing something like this. I click on recent forum posts and probably a third of them could be moved to a Fight Club style subforum.
I really like that idea! hm. maybe I'll offer it up in the site suggestions subforum
Originally posted by FoomerangI moderated a gaming forum for about ten years. Great community there. One thing that helped tremendously was that we had a "Fight Club" subforum. Any sort of rant topic or jaded topic would be moved there. Threads werent deleted and posters were not moderated there. You had to agree to a disclaimer that you know full well offensive and negative material is in this subforum. If constructive threads got hijacked, we could cut the off topic threads and create a new thread in the Fight Club subforum.Thats how we did it. Worked for years. Nobody got banned or all pissy. And the general gaming forum consisted mainly of constructive, lively, and civil debates.This place should really think about doing something like this. I click on recent forum posts and probably a third of them could be moved to a Fight Club style subforum.
I really like that idea!
hm. maybe I'll offer it up in the site suggestions subforum
Please do. We had similar back in the BBS days. It was very effective.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I agree that there seems to be a tremendous rift between gamers who say they love MMO's. And I think it all revolves around the term "Hardcore"
These seem to be the most vocal group at least. And the whole issue that divides us seems rather simple too. MMO's are just not "Hardcore" enough for these people. And thats fine I understand where they are coming from. The problem is every discussion quickly descends into " you are a moron for playing easy themepark MMO's" followed by " And you hardcore guys are elitist jerks" And it spirals down from there. Every time.
I don't see any hope on the horizon unless someone appeases the "Hardcores" with that perfect sandbox they keep searching for. I am hoping they find it soon. But doubtful.
Until that time tho I have made a decision not to comment on 2 types of threads.
1) the doom and gloomer who says MMO's are dead
2) The looking for a game threads, which I see as just a variation of number 1. No matter how many games you list they will find fault in all of them.
While none of this solves the problem it does make me feel a little better!
And its all about me!! Right guys?
The problem is, the hardcore, while vocal, aren't numerous and any game made to cater to them will fail immediately and we'll be back to square one. Further, the hardcore players can't even agree on what kind of game they want and they're all part of the MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
I agree that there seems to be a tremendous rift between gamers who say they love MMO's. And I think it all revolves around the term "Hardcore"
These seem to be the most vocal group at least. And the whole issue that divides us seems rather simple too. MMO's are just not "Hardcore" enough for these people. And thats fine I understand where they are coming from. The problem is every discussion quickly descends into " you are a moron for playing easy themepark MMO's" followed by " And you hardcore guys are elitist jerks" And it spirals down from there. Every time.
I don't see any hope on the horizon unless someone appeases the "Hardcores" with that perfect sandbox they keep searching for. I am hoping they find it soon. But doubtful.
Until that time tho I have made a decision not to comment on 2 types of threads.
1) the doom and gloomer who says MMO's are dead
2) The looking for a game threads, which I see as just a variation of number 1. No matter how many games you list they will find fault in all of them.
While none of this solves the problem it does make me feel a little better!
And its all about me!! Right guys?
The problem is, the hardcore, while vocal, aren't numerous and any game made to cater to them will fail immediately and we'll be back to square one. Further, the hardcore players can't even agree on what kind of game they want and they're all part of the MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
It just never actually is.
You have zero evidence to back this up. You're just talking out of your ass like many people who lambast the "hardcore" community. If you read my post a few above yours, it completely destroys your little assertion. The future is bright for the those wanting a more challenging MMO with the birth of crowd-funding. But don't let logic and rational thinking get in the way your talking points and your agenda to discredit people who think differently than yourself.
I swear the real cancer in this community isn't those who are asking for something new - it's those who are intolerant of anything other than the status-quo. Everyone can be happy in this market - everyone can be served the game they want. There's no reason to be such assholes to others simply because they don't want what you want and because they're trying hard to get it.
Personally I obviously hope we can create a better culture here but I do view it as pretty hostile as I do most of the internet. I'm not even sure it's reversible and wonder if it will get worse as more and more people unleash on each other over something as trivial as video game preferences. All I can do as can any ordinary member is change ourselves. So I'll guess I'll have to try to look for the diamonds in the rough and restrain myself at times. Thanks for reading and please don't forget to let me know what you think.
I think this community is quite healthy. There is more passion than persuasion, but ad-hominem attacks seem relatively rare. I don't think it's as bad as you seem to believe and besides, we're only talking about video games.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is my humble opinion that game developers at some time in the past relized they could create false forum accounts for rival games and cause a rukus or even a colapse. This not only is the norm for this industry but it has infected a large portion of the dedicated consumers of these products as well.
No in depth analysis about the state of the culture or anything like that.
Game on!
I suck at PVP, forum especially, but quite bad in-game too.
Can't say I'm good at presenting or absorbing in-depth analysis either. I can't seem to communicate 3 lines clearly, and others expect paragraphs of articulated thought?
I'm just here because I like keeping tabs on what's going on in the MMO community. Also, when I'm too tired and cranky to do good quality work, browsing the forum and interjecting stuff that nobody reads is something to do.
That's how I play MMORPG.com. Game on! :-)
edit: fixed grammar
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I agree that there seems to be a tremendous rift between gamers who say they love MMO's. And I think it all revolves around the term "Hardcore"
These seem to be the most vocal group at least. And the whole issue that divides us seems rather simple too. MMO's are just not "Hardcore" enough for these people. And thats fine I understand where they are coming from. The problem is every discussion quickly descends into " you are a moron for playing easy themepark MMO's" followed by " And you hardcore guys are elitist jerks" And it spirals down from there. Every time.
I don't see any hope on the horizon unless someone appeases the "Hardcores" with that perfect sandbox they keep searching for. I am hoping they find it soon. But doubtful.
Until that time tho I have made a decision not to comment on 2 types of threads.
1) the doom and gloomer who says MMO's are dead
2) The looking for a game threads, which I see as just a variation of number 1. No matter how many games you list they will find fault in all of them.
While none of this solves the problem it does make me feel a little better!
And its all about me!! Right guys?
The problem is, the hardcore, while vocal, aren't numerous and any game made to cater to them will fail immediately and we'll be back to square one. Further, the hardcore players can't even agree on what kind of game they want and they're all part of the MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
It just never actually is.
You have zero evidence to back this up. You're just talking out of your ass like many people who lambast the "hardcore" community. If you read my post a few above yours, it completely destroys your little assertion. The future is bright for the those wanting a more challenging MMO with the birth of crowd-funding. But don't let logic and rational thinking get in the way your talking points and your agenda to discredit people who think differently than yourself.
I swear the real cancer in this community isn't those who are asking for something new - it's those who are intolerant of anything other than the status-quo. Everyone can be happy in this market - everyone can be served the game they want. There's no reason to be such assholes to others simply because they don't want what you want and because they're trying hard to get it.
Myself personally, I am not trying to lambaste the hardcore community. I completely understand why they want the things they do. The problem they have is that it is very hard to deliver those things, in a mainstream MMO. And it seems they have a hard time accepting that fact. In fact they seem even to be voracious about consuming and then denigrating the various games that have been designed with them in mind.
And all you have to do is start a sandbox discussion here to see how varied everyone's version of the ideal MMO is. All I can see coming from that side is negativity towards MMO's in general, and the feeling that a game has to meet all of the requirements in said checkbox, or it isn't a true hardcore MMO. No room for compromise anywhere, no willingness to maybe give up a little of this to get some of that, mentality. Again this is why I think the majority of LFG threads are a waste of time. They aren't looking for a game. They are looking for that perfect game!
Its a recipe for frustration and it boils over into heated arguments which nobody wins unfortunately and just breeds a lot of bad blood between us.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I agree that there seems to be a tremendous rift between gamers who say they love MMO's. And I think it all revolves around the term "Hardcore"
These seem to be the most vocal group at least. And the whole issue that divides us seems rather simple too. MMO's are just not "Hardcore" enough for these people. And thats fine I understand where they are coming from. The problem is every discussion quickly descends into " you are a moron for playing easy themepark MMO's" followed by " And you hardcore guys are elitist jerks" And it spirals down from there. Every time.
I don't see any hope on the horizon unless someone appeases the "Hardcores" with that perfect sandbox they keep searching for. I am hoping they find it soon. But doubtful.
Until that time tho I have made a decision not to comment on 2 types of threads.
1) the doom and gloomer who says MMO's are dead
2) The looking for a game threads, which I see as just a variation of number 1. No matter how many games you list they will find fault in all of them.
While none of this solves the problem it does make me feel a little better!
And its all about me!! Right guys?
The problem is, the hardcore, while vocal, aren't numerous and any game made to cater to them will fail immediately and we'll be back to square one. Further, the hardcore players can't even agree on what kind of game they want and they're all part of the MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
It just never actually is.
You have zero evidence to back this up. You're just talking out of your ass like many people who lambast the "hardcore" community. If you read my post a few above yours, it completely destroys your little assertion. The future is bright for the those wanting a more challenging MMO with the birth of crowd-funding. But don't let logic and rational thinking get in the way your talking points and your agenda to discredit people who think differently than yourself.
I swear the real cancer in this community isn't those who are asking for something new - it's those who are intolerant of anything other than the status-quo. Everyone can be happy in this market - everyone can be served the game they want. There's no reason to be such assholes to others simply because they don't want what you want and because they're trying hard to get it.
Myself personally, I am not trying to lambaste the hardcore community. I completely understand why they want the things they do. The problem they have is that it is very hard to deliver those things, in a mainstream MMO. And it seems they have a hard time accepting that fact. In fact they seem even to be voracious about consuming and then denigrating the various games that have been designed with them in mind.
And all you have to do is start a sandbox discussion here to see how varied everyone's version of the ideal MMO is. All I can see coming from that side is negativity towards MMO's in general, and the feeling that a game has to meet all of the requirements in said checkbox, or it isn't a true hardcore MMO. No room for compromise anywhere, no willingness to maybe give up a little of this to get some of that, mentality. Again this is why I think the majority of LFG threads are a waste of time. They aren't looking for a game. They are looking for that perfect game!
Its a recipe for frustration and it boils over into heated arguments which nobody wins unfortunately and just breeds a lot of bad blood between us.
+1
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I agree that there seems to be a tremendous rift between gamers who say they love MMO's. And I think it all revolves around the term "Hardcore"
These seem to be the most vocal group at least. And the whole issue that divides us seems rather simple too. MMO's are just not "Hardcore" enough for these people. And thats fine I understand where they are coming from. The problem is every discussion quickly descends into " you are a moron for playing easy themepark MMO's" followed by " And you hardcore guys are elitist jerks" And it spirals down from there. Every time.
I don't see any hope on the horizon unless someone appeases the "Hardcores" with that perfect sandbox they keep searching for. I am hoping they find it soon. But doubtful.
Until that time tho I have made a decision not to comment on 2 types of threads.
1) the doom and gloomer who says MMO's are dead
2) The looking for a game threads, which I see as just a variation of number 1. No matter how many games you list they will find fault in all of them.
While none of this solves the problem it does make me feel a little better!
And its all about me!! Right guys?
The problem is, the hardcore, while vocal, aren't numerous and any game made to cater to them will fail immediately and we'll be back to square one. Further, the hardcore players can't even agree on what kind of game they want and they're all part of the MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
It just never actually is.
You have zero evidence to back this up. You're just talking out of your ass like many people who lambast the "hardcore" community. If you read my post a few above yours, it completely destroys your little assertion. The future is bright for the those wanting a more challenging MMO with the birth of crowd-funding. But don't let logic and rational thinking get in the way your talking points and your agenda to discredit people who think differently than yourself.
I swear the real cancer in this community isn't those who are asking for something new - it's those who are intolerant of anything other than the status-quo. Everyone can be happy in this market - everyone can be served the game they want. There's no reason to be such assholes to others simply because they don't want what you want and because they're trying hard to get it.
Myself personally, I am not trying to lambaste the hardcore community. I completely understand why they want the things they do. The problem they have is that it is very hard to deliver those things, in a mainstream MMO. And it seems they have a hard time accepting that fact. In fact they seem even to be voracious about consuming and then denigrating the various games that have been designed with them in mind.
And all you have to do is start a sandbox discussion here to see how varied everyone's version of the ideal MMO is. All I can see coming from that side is negativity towards MMO's in general, and the feeling that a game has to meet all of the requirements in said checkbox, or it isn't a true hardcore MMO. No room for compromise anywhere, no willingness to maybe give up a little of this to get some of that, mentality. Again this is why I think the majority of LFG threads are a waste of time. They aren't looking for a game. They are looking for that perfect game!
Its a recipe for frustration and it boils over into heated arguments which nobody wins unfortunately and just breeds a lot of bad blood between us.
Well I found your post(s) to be civil so I wasn't addressing you personally there - I was responding to the guy who quoted you.
I disagree that it's hard to deliver the features than people want in a mainstream MMO's. Because it's not difficult for the developers to create the game. Rather, it's just difficult for a AAA publisher to justify spending X dollars on it when they know they can make a certain profit margin on cash-shop cartoon-games that meet the status quo. Also, just because a AAA publisher won't make the game we want, doesn't mean someone else can't make a AAA game. It's a classic logic problem that just because the one is true, doesn't make the other not true.
The problem with the industry (in my opinion) is that things seem to have coalesced after World of Warcraft came out. Publishers saw the success and decided: "Hey, we should do something like that - over and over and over again and hope that one works because the dividends of success would be so enormous. And if it doesn't work, at least we know we'll break even on cash-shop fluff", etc. Do we as a community think SWTOR was a good investment for EA? Of course not, it failed miserably. But they at least broke even on the books because of free-to-play and cash shops. That's the publisher mentality.
It's also what the developers have been echoing recently in talks and interviews. The developers are not the publishers. The developers understand what's going on and are against it. Developers want to try new things, return to the past and explore different pathways branching from the original classic games. Check this Pax Prime panel of developers out. The industry is not figured out yet. We've been fooled into thinking that World of Warcraft is the only model of MMORPG that could be, simply because it's been copied 5,000 times. The market is primed for diversity at this point. This is why crowd-funding has been so incredibly successful recently. Publishers that were unwilling to take any risk of branching out in many genres are getting slapped in the face by developers that are circumventing them to deliver the goods.
Now regarding whether or not "hardcore" gamers are being too vindictive against the status-quo - I agree with you. There's little chance of a AAA publisher pulling it's head out of it's ass and making the next "big thing" by trying something new. These publishers are simply too risk-averse to try it. So there's not much point in trying to change their minds, especially with vitriol. But can you really blame a deprived consumer - someone who has had 10 years to become bitter about the market ignoring their desires - for being so angry?
And yes, I understand that in discussion people can get very intense regarding their disagreement for X feature over Y in a game - but that doesn't change the underlying themes behind their desire: challenge, cooperation, meaningful achievement, socialization, risk. The themes are what really matter here - everything else is just people being people and nitpicking.
Also consider that because of crowd-funding, we will probably see a mainstream, AAA MMORPG within the next few years that fits with what people are demanding. Mark me down for that - I bet it's going to happen. If Star Citizen the Space Sim (a genre that is teeny relative to the classic MMO community) can make 26 million dollars just to create the game from donations alone then we will probably see something similar if a class EQ-style game is presented.
MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
It just never actually is.
I had to lol. Sad but true. Sadder still is that that particular mentality isn't limited to just the "hardcore" players, but can be found among all of the varied sub cultures of the MMO community.
For those wanting proof of this, look through these forums. You'll find countless threads where people learned all they could about a game before it came out, and were really looking forward to it. Then after it did come out, the same people who couldn't wait for it; are the most vocal bad mouthing it. It is exactly this mentality which causes the AAA developers to not make the games players really want. They can't take the chance that if they do make it, it won't have a stable enough base to be profitable. So the make X iteration of (insert game here) clone that they know will have a stable enough base to be profitable instead. Is anyone really looking forward to FF XLV? But I bet it would sell enough subs to be profitable.
Humans tend to look at past experiences with rose colored glasses. Remembering "the good old days" is part of what makes us human. Even though we tend to forget that those "good old days" had hardships too. I believe that if a classic MMO were to come out tomorrow with modern graphics, it wouldn't even have a quarter of the people playing it, as compared to the number that played it originally. It would be too "grindy", "gank fest", or good old "forced grouping".
Oh, before I forget: +1 to the poster suggesting the "forum fight club". Don't know whether it would help or not, but it would make for entertaining reading. XD
Oh, before I forget: +1 to the poster suggesting the "forum fight club". Don't know whether it would help or not, but it would make for entertaining reading. XD
+1 from me too btw. Not because I want to read the s&#t fights but because I'd like to see them rid from the rest of the boards.
Well I found your post(s) to be civil so I wasn't addressing you personally there - I was responding to the guy who quoted you.
I disagree that it's hard to deliver the features than people want in a mainstream MMO's. Because it's not difficult for the developers to create the game. Rather, it's just difficult for a AAA publisher to justify spending X dollars on it when they know they can make a certain profit margin on cash-shop cartoon-games that meet the status quo. Also, just because a AAA publisher won't make the game we want, doesn't mean someone else can't make a AAA game. It's a classic logic problem that just because the one is true, doesn't make the other not true.
The problem with the industry (in my opinion) is that things seem to have coalesced after World of Warcraft came out. Publishers saw the success and decided: "Hey, we should do something like that - over and over and over again and hope that one works because the dividends of success would be so enormous. And if it doesn't work, at least we know we'll break even on cash-shop fluff", etc. Do we as a community think SWTOR was a good investment for EA? Of course not, it failed miserably. But they at least broke even on the books because of free-to-play and cash shops. That's the publisher mentality.
It's also what the developers have been echoing recently in talks and interviews. The developers are not the publishers. The developers understand what's going on and are against it. Developers want to try new things, return to the past and explore different pathways branching from the original classic games. Check this Pax Prime panel of developers out. The industry is not figured out yet. We've been fooled into thinking that World of Warcraft is the only model of MMORPG that could be, simply because it's been copied 5,000 times. The market is primed for diversity at this point. This is why crowd-funding has been so incredibly successful recently. Publishers that were unwilling to take any risk of branching out in many genres are getting slapped in the face by developers that are circumventing them to deliver the goods.
Now regarding whether or not "hardcore" gamers are being too vindictive against the status-quo - I agree with you. There's little chance of a AAA publisher pulling it's head out of it's ass and making the next "big thing" by trying something new. These publishers are simply too risk-averse to try it. So there's not much point in trying to change their minds, especially with vitriol. But can you really blame a deprived consumer - someone who has had 10 years to become bitter about the market ignoring their desires - for being so angry?
And yes, I understand that in discussion people can get very intense regarding their disagreement for X feature over Y in a game - but that doesn't change the underlying themes behind their desire: challenge, cooperation, meaningful achievement, socialization, risk. The themes are what really matter here - everything else is just people being people and nitpicking.
Also consider that because of crowd-funding, we will probably see a mainstream, AAA MMORPG within the next few years that fits with what people are demanding. Mark me down for that - I bet it's going to happen. If Star Citizen the Space Sim (a genre that is teeny relative to the classic MMO community) can make 26 million dollars just to create the game from donations alone then we will probably see something similar if a class EQ-style game is presented.
I am fairly hopeful as well, that something will come along offering more of the themes you mentioned. I may be a casual gamer but I am willing to give new things a try.
It just seems that with games having remained relatively static in design, for many years now, we really are reaching the saturation point where someone has to try something a little different. Just like the old saying that "nothing stays the same forever" we are due for a little experimentation in the genre.
Its always the human factor in MMO's that is unpredictable though. And when you are talking about catering to a group that is admittedly very educated about games,yet also a very critical and vocal group, then you are up against some very tough customers. We have seen the various features that people want in a game. The difficult part will getting the right features that people want to coalesce into a game that people find fun to play. And with the human factor you never really know how that will work out until you get the masses together in game. Will it turn into a gankfest? Will the economy work? Will players be willing and enjoy socializing? Will they be able to create meaningful content on their own? Lots of unknowns there that will really be untested until we see the actual game.
But agreed, hopefully soon we can all relax and say that there is some choice in the MMO market and not all games are created equal. The best way to achieve this is to vote with your wallet I think, and lets get away from the "blame the other guy" for all of our troubles, type of arguments. Its really nobody's fault, it's just the way the world works.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Foomerang I moderated a gaming forum for about ten years. Great community there. One thing that helped tremendously was that we had a "Fight Club" subforum. Any sort of rant topic or jaded topic would be moved there. Threads werent deleted and posters were not moderated there. You had to agree to a disclaimer that you know full well offensive and negative material is in this subforum. If constructive threads got hijacked, we could cut the off topic threads and create a new thread in the Fight Club subforum.Thats how we did it. Worked for years. Nobody got banned or all pissy. And the general gaming forum consisted mainly of constructive, lively, and civil debates.This place should really think about doing something like this. I click on recent forum posts and probably a third of them could be moved to a Fight Club style subforum.
I like the idea, but have a feeling that 90% or more of all threads would end up there
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't think the genre and community are doomed. Then again, I am one of those people that say that MMO communities are kind of vapid and venomous from default. So of the most epic whining and bitching I have ever seen come from MMO forums or Bioware forums (In the case of SWTOR, it has the unfortunate distinction of being a Bioware MMO. Double trouble....)
However, we are fractured. Sandbox vs Themepark. PvP vs. PvE. Action combat vs. Traditional rotation combat.
We can't agree on a damn thing in the MMO community. Well, except that Star Citizen will be awesome sauce. Let us be honest, there is never, and I mean NEVER going to be a game to appease to all MMO players. It is impossible. I think the main issue in the gaming industry period is wasting money to try to appeal to everybody. A Godless endeavor for sure. It is as old as time, "You can't please all of the people all of the time."
Originally posted by Foomerang I moderated a gaming forum for about ten years. Great community there. One thing that helped tremendously was that we had a "Fight Club" subforum. Any sort of rant topic or jaded topic would be moved there. Threads werent deleted and posters were not moderated there. You had to agree to a disclaimer that you know full well offensive and negative material is in this subforum. If constructive threads got hijacked, we could cut the off topic threads and create a new thread in the Fight Club subforum.
Thats how we did it. Worked for years. Nobody got banned or all pissy. And the general gaming forum consisted mainly of constructive, lively, and civil debates.
This place should really think about doing something like this. I click on recent forum posts and probably a third of them could be moved to a Fight Club style subforum.
I like the idea, but have a feeling that 90% or more of all threads would end up there
Probably why MikeB replied to this idea over in the Site Suggestions Forum with a terse "not going to happen".
Think of the amount of effort the mods would have to put in to move all these threads over there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
However, we are fractured. Sandbox vs Themepark. PvP vs. PvE. Action combat vs. Traditional rotation combat.
We can't agree on a damn thing in the MMO community. Well, except that Star Citizen will be awesome sauce. Let us be honest, there is never, and I mean NEVER going to be a game to appease to all MMO players. It is impossible. I think the main issue in the gaming industry period is wasting money to try to appeal to everybody. A Godless endeavor for sure. It is as old as time, "You can't please all of the people all of the time."
I think this idea that the community is fractured is a little off-base. Because I think we must all realize by now that Sandbox, Themepark, PvP, PVE are all so radically different, that when implimented, make completely different types of games.
It's like saying the FPS community is fractured because Mass Effect is different than Call of Duty. Or that space-sim communities are fractured because Eve Online is different than Star Citizen. The setting and environments and tools might be similar, but the games themselves are radically different.
I think what people are complaining about in the MMO community is simply the lack of choice. There is a demand for underserved variations of the genre - challenging PVE MMO's, PvP MMO's, Sandbox MMO's. Those are the 3 big ones. Sure, you can combine them all into one game, but you can also separate them into 3 different games. Personally, I"m for having as much choice and variety as possible. That's the big gripe, when it comes down to it. I don't think it's that were fractured - I think it's because we don't have anything to choose from.
Comments
I read your entire post.
hm. maybe I'll offer it up in the site suggestions subforum
Please do. We had similar back in the BBS days. It was very effective.
The problem is, the hardcore, while vocal, aren't numerous and any game made to cater to them will fail immediately and we'll be back to square one. Further, the hardcore players can't even agree on what kind of game they want and they're all part of the MMO Cult of the Soon. The perfect game will come out soon. It's always on the horizon. When it comes out, it sucks, it's the worst game ever, but there's always another game just over the next hill that will be great. Just wait and see.
It just never actually is.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You have zero evidence to back this up. You're just talking out of your ass like many people who lambast the "hardcore" community. If you read my post a few above yours, it completely destroys your little assertion. The future is bright for the those wanting a more challenging MMO with the birth of crowd-funding. But don't let logic and rational thinking get in the way your talking points and your agenda to discredit people who think differently than yourself.
I swear the real cancer in this community isn't those who are asking for something new - it's those who are intolerant of anything other than the status-quo. Everyone can be happy in this market - everyone can be served the game they want. There's no reason to be such assholes to others simply because they don't want what you want and because they're trying hard to get it.
I think this community is quite healthy. There is more passion than persuasion, but ad-hominem attacks seem relatively rare. I don't think it's as bad as you seem to believe and besides, we're only talking about video games.
Meh, I'm just here for the forum PVP.
No in depth analysis about the state of the culture or anything like that.
Game on!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I suck at PVP, forum especially, but quite bad in-game too.
Can't say I'm good at presenting or absorbing in-depth analysis either. I can't seem to communicate 3 lines clearly, and others expect paragraphs of articulated thought?
I'm just here because I like keeping tabs on what's going on in the MMO community. Also, when I'm too tired and cranky to do good quality work, browsing the forum and interjecting stuff that nobody reads is something to do.
That's how I play MMORPG.com. Game on! :-)
edit: fixed grammar
Myself personally, I am not trying to lambaste the hardcore community. I completely understand why they want the things they do. The problem they have is that it is very hard to deliver those things, in a mainstream MMO. And it seems they have a hard time accepting that fact. In fact they seem even to be voracious about consuming and then denigrating the various games that have been designed with them in mind.
And all you have to do is start a sandbox discussion here to see how varied everyone's version of the ideal MMO is. All I can see coming from that side is negativity towards MMO's in general, and the feeling that a game has to meet all of the requirements in said checkbox, or it isn't a true hardcore MMO. No room for compromise anywhere, no willingness to maybe give up a little of this to get some of that, mentality. Again this is why I think the majority of LFG threads are a waste of time. They aren't looking for a game. They are looking for that perfect game!
Its a recipe for frustration and it boils over into heated arguments which nobody wins unfortunately and just breeds a lot of bad blood between us.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
+1
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Well I found your post(s) to be civil so I wasn't addressing you personally there - I was responding to the guy who quoted you.
I disagree that it's hard to deliver the features than people want in a mainstream MMO's. Because it's not difficult for the developers to create the game. Rather, it's just difficult for a AAA publisher to justify spending X dollars on it when they know they can make a certain profit margin on cash-shop cartoon-games that meet the status quo. Also, just because a AAA publisher won't make the game we want, doesn't mean someone else can't make a AAA game. It's a classic logic problem that just because the one is true, doesn't make the other not true.
The problem with the industry (in my opinion) is that things seem to have coalesced after World of Warcraft came out. Publishers saw the success and decided: "Hey, we should do something like that - over and over and over again and hope that one works because the dividends of success would be so enormous. And if it doesn't work, at least we know we'll break even on cash-shop fluff", etc. Do we as a community think SWTOR was a good investment for EA? Of course not, it failed miserably. But they at least broke even on the books because of free-to-play and cash shops. That's the publisher mentality.
It's also what the developers have been echoing recently in talks and interviews. The developers are not the publishers. The developers understand what's going on and are against it. Developers want to try new things, return to the past and explore different pathways branching from the original classic games. Check this Pax Prime panel of developers out. The industry is not figured out yet. We've been fooled into thinking that World of Warcraft is the only model of MMORPG that could be, simply because it's been copied 5,000 times. The market is primed for diversity at this point. This is why crowd-funding has been so incredibly successful recently. Publishers that were unwilling to take any risk of branching out in many genres are getting slapped in the face by developers that are circumventing them to deliver the goods.
Now regarding whether or not "hardcore" gamers are being too vindictive against the status-quo - I agree with you. There's little chance of a AAA publisher pulling it's head out of it's ass and making the next "big thing" by trying something new. These publishers are simply too risk-averse to try it. So there's not much point in trying to change their minds, especially with vitriol. But can you really blame a deprived consumer - someone who has had 10 years to become bitter about the market ignoring their desires - for being so angry?
And yes, I understand that in discussion people can get very intense regarding their disagreement for X feature over Y in a game - but that doesn't change the underlying themes behind their desire: challenge, cooperation, meaningful achievement, socialization, risk. The themes are what really matter here - everything else is just people being people and nitpicking.
Also consider that because of crowd-funding, we will probably see a mainstream, AAA MMORPG within the next few years that fits with what people are demanding. Mark me down for that - I bet it's going to happen. If Star Citizen the Space Sim (a genre that is teeny relative to the classic MMO community) can make 26 million dollars just to create the game from donations alone then we will probably see something similar if a class EQ-style game is presented.
I had to lol. Sad but true. Sadder still is that that particular mentality isn't limited to just the "hardcore" players, but can be found among all of the varied sub cultures of the MMO community.
For those wanting proof of this, look through these forums. You'll find countless threads where people learned all they could about a game before it came out, and were really looking forward to it. Then after it did come out, the same people who couldn't wait for it; are the most vocal bad mouthing it. It is exactly this mentality which causes the AAA developers to not make the games players really want. They can't take the chance that if they do make it, it won't have a stable enough base to be profitable. So the make X iteration of (insert game here) clone that they know will have a stable enough base to be profitable instead. Is anyone really looking forward to FF XLV? But I bet it would sell enough subs to be profitable.
Humans tend to look at past experiences with rose colored glasses. Remembering "the good old days" is part of what makes us human. Even though we tend to forget that those "good old days" had hardships too. I believe that if a classic MMO were to come out tomorrow with modern graphics, it wouldn't even have a quarter of the people playing it, as compared to the number that played it originally. It would be too "grindy", "gank fest", or good old "forced grouping".
Oh, before I forget: +1 to the poster suggesting the "forum fight club". Don't know whether it would help or not, but it would make for entertaining reading. XD
+1 from me too btw. Not because I want to read the s&#t fights but because I'd like to see them rid from the rest of the boards.
I am fairly hopeful as well, that something will come along offering more of the themes you mentioned. I may be a casual gamer but I am willing to give new things a try.
It just seems that with games having remained relatively static in design, for many years now, we really are reaching the saturation point where someone has to try something a little different. Just like the old saying that "nothing stays the same forever" we are due for a little experimentation in the genre.
Its always the human factor in MMO's that is unpredictable though. And when you are talking about catering to a group that is admittedly very educated about games,yet also a very critical and vocal group, then you are up against some very tough customers. We have seen the various features that people want in a game. The difficult part will getting the right features that people want to coalesce into a game that people find fun to play. And with the human factor you never really know how that will work out until you get the masses together in game. Will it turn into a gankfest? Will the economy work? Will players be willing and enjoy socializing? Will they be able to create meaningful content on their own? Lots of unknowns there that will really be untested until we see the actual game.
But agreed, hopefully soon we can all relax and say that there is some choice in the MMO market and not all games are created equal. The best way to achieve this is to vote with your wallet I think, and lets get away from the "blame the other guy" for all of our troubles, type of arguments. Its really nobody's fault, it's just the way the world works.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't think the genre and community are doomed. Then again, I am one of those people that say that MMO communities are kind of vapid and venomous from default. So of the most epic whining and bitching I have ever seen come from MMO forums or Bioware forums (In the case of SWTOR, it has the unfortunate distinction of being a Bioware MMO. Double trouble....)
However, we are fractured. Sandbox vs Themepark. PvP vs. PvE. Action combat vs. Traditional rotation combat.
We can't agree on a damn thing in the MMO community. Well, except that Star Citizen will be awesome sauce. Let us be honest, there is never, and I mean NEVER going to be a game to appease to all MMO players. It is impossible. I think the main issue in the gaming industry period is wasting money to try to appeal to everybody. A Godless endeavor for sure. It is as old as time, "You can't please all of the people all of the time."
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
Probably why MikeB replied to this idea over in the Site Suggestions Forum with a terse "not going to happen".
Think of the amount of effort the mods would have to put in to move all these threads over there.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think this idea that the community is fractured is a little off-base. Because I think we must all realize by now that Sandbox, Themepark, PvP, PVE are all so radically different, that when implimented, make completely different types of games.
It's like saying the FPS community is fractured because Mass Effect is different than Call of Duty. Or that space-sim communities are fractured because Eve Online is different than Star Citizen. The setting and environments and tools might be similar, but the games themselves are radically different.
I think what people are complaining about in the MMO community is simply the lack of choice. There is a demand for underserved variations of the genre - challenging PVE MMO's, PvP MMO's, Sandbox MMO's. Those are the 3 big ones. Sure, you can combine them all into one game, but you can also separate them into 3 different games. Personally, I"m for having as much choice and variety as possible. That's the big gripe, when it comes down to it. I don't think it's that were fractured - I think it's because we don't have anything to choose from.