Well now that you put it like this I think I disagree even more. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that if there were a large enough market of "oldschool" fans that they would manifest themselves in some explicit way.
Because that's how humans are wired. If a group exists, there's some data on them somewhere, if not one or more SIGs of some kind around the web where you can find them.
If that were always the case you wouldn't have cases like WoW that surprise people. Also I specifically said some "explicit" way. I'm not sure why there has to be some gathering place in order for there to be a market to tap into.
Well, online game devs somehow found most every other group outside of this particularly elusive and hard to quantify one. If they don't gather anywhere currently, especially when there are so many ways to do so for free, what makes a dev think they'd pay to convene somewhere?
They're all dismissed. The community for elder scrolls. See.
SWG refugees had more stalkers than most groups that went out of their way to keep us from forming a group.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by HolophonistOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by Holophonist
I'm not sure I want to get into another technical discussion with you as it seems it always ends up in you just leaving without a concession.Buuuuut I'm stubborn so I'm going to. He never said those other things would prove that there is a market for them. He said if there were a market, those things would be apparent. There's a difference. He's saying if there were a large market there would be a facebook group for it. That's different from saying if there were a facebook group, that would mean there's a large market. Any one of those things existing wouldn't prove that the market exists. Clearly his emphasis was on the crowd funding or self-funding thing. And quite frankly, I don't agree to those terms. I don't agree that the market hasn't revealed itself until an entire game has been crowd funded.No. He didn't. He is saying if there was a large market there would be some evidence. Evidence could be (but is not limited to) any of the 10 ways he stated. There was no emphasis on one or the other, rather it was that something would exist and he gave several different ways that it could happen. He is not saying, "if there was a large market there would be a facebook group". He is saying if there was a large market there would be some group somewhere, it could be crowd funding, facebook, twitter, some website... something somewhere.He did not limit it to one thing, but stated 10 different things, implying that there are many ways there could be evidence for it.He never said the only evidence was a self-funded game that was only 1 of 10 possible evidences that could be used.Any one of those thigns might not prove it exists but it would give evidence of it's existence.edit - now the logical come back to this is the expression an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence which is true. It is also true that the larger a group is the more evidence there is of it. It is also true that typically evidence one way or the other is found whenever people go looking for it, and there are people looking for this. Devs/publishers are constantly looking at the market, gamers are looking at the market, researchers are looking at the market. Thus Occam's Razor applies. With all those people looking, if they can't find it, it likely is not large enough to be found. On the other hand, maybe they have found it, and the next sandboxish games is in response to it.Here's the difference, the last paragraph of things that he spouted off weren't the main point because he never said if one of these things exists, then the market exists. However, he did say that for crowd funding/self funding. Clearly that's where his emphasis was and the other "10" points weren't in the same category. Also, a lot of the things on the list were pretty meaningless. An oldschool game facebook page? Are there newschool game facebook pages? And you doubled or trippled up on same points. For instance, your list includes these 4:MMORPG websiteVideogame websiteThousands of users on that websitewebsite dedicated to itDo you really take this to be an honest assessment of what he said? Good grief. This is what I said, in fewer words. If there exists a large 'old school' market for MMORPGs, then the people who make up that market would do things, most likely social things on the internet, that would be noticeable in some way. Once noticed and identified, those things could be quantified in some way. I listed some examples, such as creating an internet forum dedicated to 'old school' MMORPGs, or starting a Facebook page dedicated to 'old school' MMORPGs. The point is that those people would not be invisible, because they would be people, they would be familiar with technology and they would be familiar with the internet. They would be in search of or aficionados of a product that they would want to exist. So they would talk about it with other people who are interested in the same thing. That's the proof, above and beyond any crowd funded projects. Compare this activity to activity of people who are interested in MMORPGs in general, or who are interested in a specific MMORPG as opposed to 'old school' MMORPGs. That would be some market research that developers would listen to.Well now that you put it like this I think I disagree even more. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that if there were a large enough market of "oldschool" fans that they would manifest themselves in some explicit way. Before themeparks became huge I don't think there were websites or social media presence (I know it wasn't really around back then) about the desire for "newschool".
It seems like you're saying we all have to gather and commit to something before a developer will even decide to make a game. This isn't how it works. It's their job to pick up on what would be viable and what wouldn't. If we were to gather in one big area to show that we exist, that would be doing their work for them. I'm not saying I'm actively AGAINST doing something like that, but I just don't at all agree when you say this is what needs to happen before we start getting the games we want.
I'll say it again: EVE. That game fits the description of a game that a lot of us oldschool players want, it's just not in the right setting for some of us and some of us don't like the mechanics (space combat rather than a character). But EVE is a good example of a game that follows a lot of those principles and is successful.
Similarly, there are games already in production that are trying to cater to this obviously unserved market. What are you guys going to say when in a couple of years there are a number of available sandbox titles, a lot of them with "oldschool" features like harsh(er) death penalties and more of an emphasis on the community working together? It seems like you guys are just taking advantage of the current situation which doesn't have many of these types of games; but that can easily be explained by WoW's anomalous success.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well now that you put it like this I think I disagree even more. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that if there were a large enough market of "oldschool" fans that they would manifest themselves in some explicit way.
Because that's how humans are wired. If a group exists, there's some data on them somewhere, if not one or more SIGs of some kind around the web where you can find them.
If that were always the case you wouldn't have cases like WoW that surprise people. Also I specifically said some "explicit" way. I'm not sure why there has to be some gathering place in order for there to be a market to tap into.
Well, online game devs somehow found most every other group outside of this particularly elusive and hard to quantify one. If they don't gather anywhere currently, especially when there are so many ways to do so for free, what makes a dev think they'd pay to convene somewhere?
oops
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I'm not sure I want to get into another technical discussion with you as it seems it always ends up in you just leaving without a concession.Buuuuut I'm stubborn so I'm going to. He never said those other things would prove that there is a market for them. He said if there were a market, those things would be apparent. There's a difference. He's saying if there were a large market there would be a facebook group for it. That's different from saying if there were a facebook group, that would mean there's a large market. Any one of those things existing wouldn't prove that the market exists. Clearly his emphasis was on the crowd funding or self-funding thing. And quite frankly, I don't agree to those terms. I don't agree that the market hasn't revealed itself until an entire game has been crowd funded.
No. He didn't. He is saying if there was a large market there would be some evidence. Evidence could be (but is not limited to) any of the 10 ways he stated. There was no emphasis on one or the other, rather it was that something would exist and he gave several different ways that it could happen. He is not saying, "if there was a large market there would be a facebook group". He is saying if there was a large market there would be some group somewhere, it could be crowd funding, facebook, twitter, some website... something somewhere.He did not limit it to one thing, but stated 10 different things, implying that there are many ways there could be evidence for it.He never said the only evidence was a self-funded game that was only 1 of 10 possible evidences that could be used.Any one of those thigns might not prove it exists but it would give evidence of it's existence.edit - now the logical come back to this is the expression an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence which is true. It is also true that the larger a group is the more evidence there is of it. It is also true that typically evidence one way or the other is found whenever people go looking for it, and there are people looking for this. Devs/publishers are constantly looking at the market, gamers are looking at the market, researchers are looking at the market. Thus Occam's Razor applies. With all those people looking, if they can't find it, it likely is not large enough to be found. On the other hand, maybe they have found it, and the next sandboxish games is in response to it.
Here's the difference, the last paragraph of things that he spouted off weren't the main point because he never said if one of these things exists, then the market exists. However, he did say that for crowd funding/self funding. Clearly that's where his emphasis was and the other "10" points weren't in the same category. Also, a lot of the things on the list were pretty meaningless. An oldschool game facebook page? Are there newschool game facebook pages? And you doubled or trippled up on same points. For instance, your list includes these 4:MMORPG websiteVideogame websiteThousands of users on that websitewebsite dedicated to itDo you really take this to be an honest assessment of what he said?
Good grief. This is what I said, in fewer words. If there exists a large 'old school' market for MMORPGs, then the people who make up that market would do things, most likely social things on the internet, that would be noticeable in some way. Once noticed and identified, those things could be quantified in some way. I listed some examples, such as creating an internet forum dedicated to 'old school' MMORPGs, or starting a Facebook page dedicated to 'old school' MMORPGs. The point is that those people would not be invisible, because they would be people, they would be familiar with technology and they would be familiar with the internet. They would be in search of or aficionados of a product that they would want to exist. So they would talk about it with other people who are interested in the same thing. That's the proof, above and beyond any crowd funded projects. Compare this activity to activity of people who are interested in MMORPGs in general, or who are interested in a specific MMORPG as opposed to 'old school' MMORPGs. That would be some market research that developers would listen to.
Well now that you put it like this I think I disagree even more. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that if there were a large enough market of "oldschool" fans that they would manifest themselves in some explicit way. Before themeparks became huge I don't think there were websites or social media presence (I know it wasn't really around back then) about the desire for "newschool".
It seems like you're saying we all have to gather and commit to something before a developer will even decide to make a game. This isn't how it works. It's their job to pick up on what would be viable and what wouldn't. If we were to gather in one big area to show that we exist, that would be doing their work for them. I'm not saying I'm actively AGAINST doing something like that, but I just don't at all agree when you say this is what needs to happen before we start getting the games we want.
I'll say it again: EVE. That game fits the description of a game that a lot of us oldschool players want, it's just not in the right setting for some of us and some of us don't like the mechanics (space combat rather than a character). But EVE is a good example of a game that follows a lot of those principles and is successful.
Similarly, there are games already in production that are trying to cater to this obviously unserved market. What are you guys going to say when in a couple of years there are a number of available sandbox titles, a lot of them with "oldschool" features like harsh(er) death penalties and more of an emphasis on the community working together? It seems like you guys are just taking advantage of the current situation which doesn't have many of these types of games; but that can easily be explained by WoW's anomalous success.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works. It's always been difficult to know what games would be viable, that's why these people are professionals. If we all gathered in one explicit area and wrote a declaration of our desires and signed it, that's going above and beyond what has ever been asked before.
I'm not saying we should be able to cut ourselves off from the world and they should come looking for us... and we're not doing that. We're all over the place talking about what we liked about oldschool games and what we don't like about newschool games. In fact we're so prevalent that people get annoyed by often we make threads/posts on the subject. What do you want from us?!?
This is all just a really silly exercise in mental gymnastics just to get around the FAR SIMPLER idea that WoW suppressed the oldschool/sandbox/whatever presence in the genre for a while and it's only now starting to come back. Isn't that a much simpler explanation?
Originally posted by FinalFikus Originally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by HolophonistWell now that you put it like this I think I disagree even more. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that if there were a large enough market of "oldschool" fans that they would manifest themselves in some explicit way.
Because that's how humans are wired. If a group exists, there's some data on them somewhere, if not one or more SIGs of some kind around the web where you can find them.10 years later you go looking:) I bet some of the staff at mmorpg.com remembers a few groups. No evidence of any kind will ever be considered valid though. How's business here at mmorpg.com?
Besides, without a developer who shares that vision and believes in the experience it offers it would be a waste of time. When one of those appear, the old timers come out of the woodwork. Star citizen is how it works. Old school games were all different experiences. You can't collect features for us...that's what the newer games do.
It is not true that no amount of proof would be 'enough'. There does have to be something though. It has to be in some way quantifiable. There has to be an indication that there are thousands of people willing to spend money. If there are no indications of this, beyond the belief that it exists, it's just not going to happen.
Never mind the idea that an 'old school' market doesn't make that much sense in the first place. Sure, there's a market of people who would really enjoy something akin to Ultima Online, something akin to EverQuest or even something akin to Meridian 59, but what is this 'old school' market? What does it want? Is it something like UO? Something like EQ? M59? It can't even be defined clearly by people who say they are a part of it. How in the world is someone supposed to produce a product for that market?
The OP's question has been answered a few times in this thread. Raise a bunch of money through crowd funding or find a developer willing to self fund the game. Do research that shows that an 'old school' market exist, and is willing to spend money on an 'old school' game. But first, figure out what that 'old school' game is, because until that's done, the other stuff doesn't matter.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Raise a bunch of money through crowd funding or find a developer willing to self fund the game. Do research that shows that an 'old school' market exist, and is willing to spend money on an 'old school' game. But first, figure out what that 'old school' game is, because until that's done, the other stuff doesn't matter.
Word.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
Isn't this what Vanguards claim to fame was "A hardcore game made by hardcore developers for hardcore players"?
Eve is a niche game and is successful. So yes it can be done but a AAA developer isn't going to spend the money to develop a niche game.
You do realize the mmorgp.com community is only a small % of the online gaming market right? Everyone of us could agree on a mmo design, which doesn't have a chance in hell of happening but let's just say all the stars aligned, hell froze over, and the mmorpg.com community all agreed on something. That would still probably only be enough for a niche game.
Not sure whats going on, just responded to about 5 posts on my phone and none of them showed up. Oh well they were basically repeating what others have allready said.
@holo. WoW did change things, no doubt. It brought in a different audience and changed what is considered large. I would argue that things are changing back from that point though. I don't think Devs are chasing the wow get a million subs deal anymore, they've learend the chances of that happening are slim to none. I do think they are looking at a few hundred thousand and having 500+ as stretch goals now.
We are not stating that all the fans of a particular genre gather under one roof. We are stating that many would gather in various places, and there would be evidence of this. Like minded people congregate. The larger the group is for any particular thing, the more evidence there is of that group existing. Maybe devs have this and thats why some upcoming games appear different.
And yes people do gather on their own. Not all in the same spot but they do gather.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Not sure whats going on, just responded to about 5 posts on my phone and none of them showed up. Oh well they were basically repeating what others have allready said.
@holo. WoW did change things, no doubt. It brought in a different audience and changed what is considered large. I would argue that things are changing back from that point though. I don't think Devs are chasing the wow get a million subs deal anymore, they've learend the chances of that happening are slim to none. I do think they are looking at a few hundred thousand and having 500+ as stretch goals now.
We are not stating that all the fans of a particular genre gather under one roof. We are stating that many would gather in various places, and there would be evidence of this. Like minded people congregate. The larger the group is for any particular thing, the more evidence there is of that group existing. Maybe devs have this and thats why some upcoming games appear different.
And yes people do gather on their own. Not all in the same spot but they do gather.
I agree! In fact this is the mantra I've repeated many times. WoW skewed the market towards a particular type of game but things seem to be regressing to the mean so to speak.
I'm not saying people don't gather on their own. But it definitely changes when you get into something as specific as this. For instance, we all gather under the MMORPG banner and argue within that. Even MMORPGs are a subset of a larger group which is videogames, and that's a subset of the larger group "games", etc. It gets to a point where people aren't going to make an entire website for a particular subset. For instance, I don't see any themepark specific groups or websites. You have websites for genres and specific games, for the most part.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
Excellent. You finally understand Lizardbones' point then. Glad we're all on the same page now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why do people think you need money to make a game? If a programmer and animator decided to team up they could make a game without any money, all it would take is a lot of time invested. But of course people dont work for free, bills have to be paid.
I tell you what an old-school game, a game of old-school is a game that has a purpose other than making money.
Currently all the games and say with propriety 'ALL GAMES' main goal is profit often leaving the fun in the background or no plan.
A grinding system that only bots can support.
Segregation of players according to what they spend on $_$ in both F2P(If such a thing exists) and P2P games there is segregation.
Games with title of 'MMO' that favor the solo player.
The games of the old-school bump into something that plagues humanity today that has an ugly name: Greed!
At the time of the amenities and facilities still have stupid people who say that this new generation of youth is the most intelligent. If you are not challenged there is no challenge.
Thing is that majority of modern MMOs do not have more subs than EQ had at prime and likely on par with the 200-300k that SWG and UO had. Why pump out millions into themeparks that sell when other game types that sold about equally well in the past go unserved or even attempted?
Most genres when they died there were still games being attempted. With MMORPGs you basically had an abrupt cease in anything but WoW style games by major developers. It seems hard not to say that even if they're not trying to steal WoW's place they're still trying to enjoy a place under its shade.
SWG had a stable base for a couple years before it declined that was higher than or on par with games like Rift or Age of Conan after launch spike. Yet its taken a decade for EQNext a sandbox to be tried by a major studio.
What is suitable data? Blizzard sells a sedan and it sells better than any car. All other car makers stop selling any car that's not a sedan. These other companies individually only sell about the same they did before selling other types of cars. People say if people wanted other kind of cars they'd buy now 15 year old or the Korean import that falls apart or smart cars. Proving people want SUVs and Sports cars how? Forums, anecdotal evidence, polling, etc? Would developers care?
I tell you what an old-school game, a game of old-school is a game that has a purpose other than making money.
Yes yes, the artistic principle. They didn't have families to feed, the were making the games for us :fist pump:.
I'm beginning to believe that 'old school' games simply marketed to much less jaded (and by extension, more gullible) fans. Because someone successfully marketed this nonsense of "games made 4 gamers yo bro".
Probably the same brand loyalty factory that marketed "yer hardco becuz yer just bettah" to so many eager converts.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
Excellent. You finally understand Lizardbones' point then. Glad we're all on the same page now.
No. That's not what Lizardbones said. He didn't say there should be some understanding of the size of the target audience. The main thing he said was specifically about crowd funding. He also said that if such a market existed there would be websites dedicated to it with a lot of subscribers, twitter feeds, etc. That's totally different from simply saying that a company has to have SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE SIZE OF THE TARGET AUDIENCE. You're going from 0 to 60 with no nuance. I'm not saying it should be totally unknown, what I'm saying is you're asking for something that target demographics are never asked to do.
All of this is you guys scrambling around for SOME reason why these games aren't being made because you don't want to admit that WoW changed the market to the point that there are people who are being underserved. You want so badly for this to somehow be our fault that the games aren't being made, but it isn't our fault. It's because companies tried to emulate WoW's success. Now they've figured out that doesn't work so well and consequently more variety is being introduced into the genre. PERIOD.
Originally posted by lizardbones Raise a bunch of money through crowd funding or find a developer willing to self fund the game. Do research that shows that an 'old school' market exist, and is willing to spend money on an 'old school' game. But first, figure out what that 'old school' game is, because until that's done, the other stuff doesn't matter.
Word.
Agreed here. Trying to find even ONE "old school" MMORPG to satisfy enough players is nigh impossible.
Fantasy or Space? Maybe Apocalyptic or Horror? PvP included? Open World? Full Loot? Tagged? Arenas? PvE only? Deep Crafting? Housing? Gear tread mill end game? Skill based leveling or XP? What kinds of time sinks are OK?
Yea, lots of differences of opinions there
PS: Sorry, Lok. I lost your thumbs-up smiley in the quote
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by lizardbones Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
Excellent. You finally understand Lizardbones' point then. Glad we're all on the same page now.
No. That's not what Lizardbones said. He didn't say there should be some understanding of the size of the target audience. The main thing he said was specifically about crowd funding. He also said that if such a market existed there would be websites dedicated to it with a lot of subscribers, twitter feeds, etc. That's totally different from simply saying that a company has to have SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE SIZE OF THE TARGET AUDIENCE. You're going from 0 to 60 with no nuance. I'm not saying it should be totally unknown, what I'm saying is you're asking for something that target demographics are never asked to do.
All of this is you guys scrambling around for SOME reason why these games aren't being made because you don't want to admit that WoW changed the market to the point that there are people who are being underserved. You want so badly for this to somehow be our fault that the games aren't being made, but it isn't our fault. It's because companies tried to emulate WoW's success. Now they've figured out that doesn't work so well and consequently more variety is being introduced into the genre. PERIOD.
SWG, UO, and Eve have all performed par for the course of MMORPGs. There wasn't a bunch of failed hardcore themeparks or sandboxes that failed released by major developers. There hasn't been overwhelming success of WoW clones. After 2004 you just have a sudden stop of many game outside of themeparks. Seems hard to say its not WoW influenced.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
Excellent. You finally understand Lizardbones' point then. Glad we're all on the same page now.
No. That's not what Lizardbones said. He didn't say there should be some understanding of the size of the target audience. The main thing he said was specifically about crowd funding. He also said that if such a market existed there would be websites dedicated to it with a lot of subscribers, twitter feeds, etc. That's totally different from simply saying that a company has to have SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE SIZE OF THE TARGET AUDIENCE. You're going from 0 to 60 with no nuance. I'm not saying it should be totally unknown, what I'm saying is you're asking for something that target demographics are never asked to do.
All of this is you guys scrambling around for SOME reason why these games aren't being made because you don't want to admit that WoW changed the market to the point that there are people who are being underserved. You want so badly for this to somehow be our fault that the games aren't being made, but it isn't our fault. It's because companies tried to emulate WoW's success. Now they've figured out that doesn't work so well and consequently more variety is being introduced into the genre. PERIOD.
SWG, UO, and Eve have all performed par for the course of MMORPGs. There wasn't a bunch of failed hardcore themeparks or sandboxes that failed released by major developers. There hasn't been overwhelming success of WoW clones. After 2004 you just have a sudden stop of many game outside of themeparks. Seems hard to say its not WoW influenced.
This seems intuitive to me but for some reason a lot of people on these forums seem intent on putting the blame on us somehow.
How exactly does a player show the market? Spend thousands in crowd funding that may not even work while majority of WoW clone players don't even spend a dime in a flooded market?
The evidence points more to developers abandoning the market. Even if they manage 25% of WoW prime numbers you have a game wildly success for a MMORPG. If not you generally will be on par with another type of game or just go F2P. What could we possibly show that will show even a quarter of WoW potential? Its on developers to make different games.
Comments
They're all dismissed. The community for elder scrolls. See.
SWG refugees had more stalkers than most groups that went out of their way to keep us from forming a group.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
No. He didn't. He is saying if there was a large market there would be some evidence. Evidence could be (but is not limited to) any of the 10 ways he stated. There was no emphasis on one or the other, rather it was that something would exist and he gave several different ways that it could happen. He is not saying, "if there was a large market there would be a facebook group". He is saying if there was a large market there would be some group somewhere, it could be crowd funding, facebook, twitter, some website... something somewhere. He did not limit it to one thing, but stated 10 different things, implying that there are many ways there could be evidence for it. He never said the only evidence was a self-funded game that was only 1 of 10 possible evidences that could be used. Any one of those thigns might not prove it exists but it would give evidence of it's existence. edit - now the logical come back to this is the expression an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence which is true. It is also true that the larger a group is the more evidence there is of it. It is also true that typically evidence one way or the other is found whenever people go looking for it, and there are people looking for this. Devs/publishers are constantly looking at the market, gamers are looking at the market, researchers are looking at the market. Thus Occam's Razor applies. With all those people looking, if they can't find it, it likely is not large enough to be found. On the other hand, maybe they have found it, and the next sandboxish games is in response to it.
Here's the difference, the last paragraph of things that he spouted off weren't the main point because he never said if one of these things exists, then the market exists. However, he did say that for crowd funding/self funding. Clearly that's where his emphasis was and the other "10" points weren't in the same category. Also, a lot of the things on the list were pretty meaningless. An oldschool game facebook page? Are there newschool game facebook pages? And you doubled or trippled up on same points. For instance, your list includes these 4: MMORPG website Videogame website Thousands of users on that website website dedicated to it Do you really take this to be an honest assessment of what he said?
Good grief. This is what I said, in fewer words. If there exists a large 'old school' market for MMORPGs, then the people who make up that market would do things, most likely social things on the internet, that would be noticeable in some way. Once noticed and identified, those things could be quantified in some way. I listed some examples, such as creating an internet forum dedicated to 'old school' MMORPGs, or starting a Facebook page dedicated to 'old school' MMORPGs. The point is that those people would not be invisible, because they would be people, they would be familiar with technology and they would be familiar with the internet. They would be in search of or aficionados of a product that they would want to exist. So they would talk about it with other people who are interested in the same thing. That's the proof, above and beyond any crowd funded projects. Compare this activity to activity of people who are interested in MMORPGs in general, or who are interested in a specific MMORPG as opposed to 'old school' MMORPGs. That would be some market research that developers would listen to.
Well now that you put it like this I think I disagree even more. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that if there were a large enough market of "oldschool" fans that they would manifest themselves in some explicit way. Before themeparks became huge I don't think there were websites or social media presence (I know it wasn't really around back then) about the desire for "newschool".
It seems like you're saying we all have to gather and commit to something before a developer will even decide to make a game. This isn't how it works. It's their job to pick up on what would be viable and what wouldn't. If we were to gather in one big area to show that we exist, that would be doing their work for them. I'm not saying I'm actively AGAINST doing something like that, but I just don't at all agree when you say this is what needs to happen before we start getting the games we want.
I'll say it again: EVE. That game fits the description of a game that a lot of us oldschool players want, it's just not in the right setting for some of us and some of us don't like the mechanics (space combat rather than a character). But EVE is a good example of a game that follows a lot of those principles and is successful.
Similarly, there are games already in production that are trying to cater to this obviously unserved market. What are you guys going to say when in a couple of years there are a number of available sandbox titles, a lot of them with "oldschool" features like harsh(er) death penalties and more of an emphasis on the community working together? It seems like you guys are just taking advantage of the current situation which doesn't have many of these types of games; but that can easily be explained by WoW's anomalous success.
Well, here's the thing. If they don't manifest themselves in some way, if they never decloak and become visible, they do not matter. With no indication that spending lots and lots of money is worth, or collecting lots and lots of money before building the MMORPG, they will not be built. It doesn't matter what kind or style of MMORPG is being talked about, lots and lots of money or some indication that a return on borrowed money is possible are the only two things that will allow them to get made.
However, feel free to disagree, take a small portion of what's said as the entire message and assume that because you believe something, it's true. Nobody can stop you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
oops
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works. It's always been difficult to know what games would be viable, that's why these people are professionals. If we all gathered in one explicit area and wrote a declaration of our desires and signed it, that's going above and beyond what has ever been asked before.
I'm not saying we should be able to cut ourselves off from the world and they should come looking for us... and we're not doing that. We're all over the place talking about what we liked about oldschool games and what we don't like about newschool games. In fact we're so prevalent that people get annoyed by often we make threads/posts on the subject. What do you want from us?!?
This is all just a really silly exercise in mental gymnastics just to get around the FAR SIMPLER idea that WoW suppressed the oldschool/sandbox/whatever presence in the genre for a while and it's only now starting to come back. Isn't that a much simpler explanation?
10 years later you go looking:) I bet some of the staff at mmorpg.com remembers a few groups. No evidence of any kind will ever be considered valid though. How's business here at mmorpg.com?
Besides, without a developer who shares that vision and believes in the experience it offers it would be a waste of time. When one of those appear, the old timers come out of the woodwork. Star citizen is how it works. Old school games were all different experiences. You can't collect features for us...that's what the newer games do.
It is not true that no amount of proof would be 'enough'. There does have to be something though. It has to be in some way quantifiable. There has to be an indication that there are thousands of people willing to spend money. If there are no indications of this, beyond the belief that it exists, it's just not going to happen.
Never mind the idea that an 'old school' market doesn't make that much sense in the first place. Sure, there's a market of people who would really enjoy something akin to Ultima Online, something akin to EverQuest or even something akin to Meridian 59, but what is this 'old school' market? What does it want? Is it something like UO? Something like EQ? M59? It can't even be defined clearly by people who say they are a part of it. How in the world is someone supposed to produce a product for that market?
The OP's question has been answered a few times in this thread. Raise a bunch of money through crowd funding or find a developer willing to self fund the game. Do research that shows that an 'old school' market exist, and is willing to spend money on an 'old school' game. But first, figure out what that 'old school' game is, because until that's done, the other stuff doesn't matter.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Word.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
Isn't this what Vanguards claim to fame was "A hardcore game made by hardcore developers for hardcore players"?
Eve is a niche game and is successful. So yes it can be done but a AAA developer isn't going to spend the money to develop a niche game.
You do realize the mmorgp.com community is only a small % of the online gaming market right? Everyone of us could agree on a mmo design, which doesn't have a chance in hell of happening but let's just say all the stars aligned, hell froze over, and the mmorpg.com community all agreed on something. That would still probably only be enough for a niche game.
Not sure whats going on, just responded to about 5 posts on my phone and none of them showed up. Oh well they were basically repeating what others have allready said.
@holo. WoW did change things, no doubt. It brought in a different audience and changed what is considered large. I would argue that things are changing back from that point though. I don't think Devs are chasing the wow get a million subs deal anymore, they've learend the chances of that happening are slim to none. I do think they are looking at a few hundred thousand and having 500+ as stretch goals now.
We are not stating that all the fans of a particular genre gather under one roof. We are stating that many would gather in various places, and there would be evidence of this. Like minded people congregate. The larger the group is for any particular thing, the more evidence there is of that group existing. Maybe devs have this and thats why some upcoming games appear different.
And yes people do gather on their own. Not all in the same spot but they do gather.
I agree! In fact this is the mantra I've repeated many times. WoW skewed the market towards a particular type of game but things seem to be regressing to the mean so to speak.
I'm not saying people don't gather on their own. But it definitely changes when you get into something as specific as this. For instance, we all gather under the MMORPG banner and argue within that. Even MMORPGs are a subset of a larger group which is videogames, and that's a subset of the larger group "games", etc. It gets to a point where people aren't going to make an entire website for a particular subset. For instance, I don't see any themepark specific groups or websites. You have websites for genres and specific games, for the most part.
Excellent. You finally understand Lizardbones' point then. Glad we're all on the same page now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why do people think you need money to make a game? If a programmer and animator decided to team up they could make a game without any money, all it would take is a lot of time invested. But of course people dont work for free, bills have to be paid.
Figure out what that 'old school' game is.
I tell you what an old-school game, a game of old-school is a game that has a purpose other than making money.
Currently all the games and say with propriety 'ALL GAMES' main goal is profit often leaving the fun in the background or no plan.
The games of the old-school bump into something that plagues humanity today that has an ugly name: Greed!
At the time of the amenities and facilities still have stupid people who say that this new generation of youth is the most intelligent. If you are not challenged there is no challenge.
Most genres when they died there were still games being attempted. With MMORPGs you basically had an abrupt cease in anything but WoW style games by major developers. It seems hard not to say that even if they're not trying to steal WoW's place they're still trying to enjoy a place under its shade.
SWG had a stable base for a couple years before it declined that was higher than or on par with games like Rift or Age of Conan after launch spike. Yet its taken a decade for EQNext a sandbox to be tried by a major studio.
What is suitable data? Blizzard sells a sedan and it sells better than any car. All other car makers stop selling any car that's not a sedan. These other companies individually only sell about the same they did before selling other types of cars. People say if people wanted other kind of cars they'd buy now 15 year old or the Korean import that falls apart or smart cars. Proving people want SUVs and Sports cars how? Forums, anecdotal evidence, polling, etc?
Would developers care?
Yes yes, the artistic principle. They didn't have families to feed, the were making the games for us :fist pump:.
I'm beginning to believe that 'old school' games simply marketed to much less jaded (and by extension, more gullible) fans. Because someone successfully marketed this nonsense of "games made 4 gamers yo bro".
Probably the same brand loyalty factory that marketed "yer hardco becuz yer just bettah" to so many eager converts.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No. That's not what Lizardbones said. He didn't say there should be some understanding of the size of the target audience. The main thing he said was specifically about crowd funding. He also said that if such a market existed there would be websites dedicated to it with a lot of subscribers, twitter feeds, etc. That's totally different from simply saying that a company has to have SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE SIZE OF THE TARGET AUDIENCE. You're going from 0 to 60 with no nuance. I'm not saying it should be totally unknown, what I'm saying is you're asking for something that target demographics are never asked to do.
All of this is you guys scrambling around for SOME reason why these games aren't being made because you don't want to admit that WoW changed the market to the point that there are people who are being underserved. You want so badly for this to somehow be our fault that the games aren't being made, but it isn't our fault. It's because companies tried to emulate WoW's success. Now they've figured out that doesn't work so well and consequently more variety is being introduced into the genre. PERIOD.
Fantasy or Space? Maybe Apocalyptic or Horror?
PvP included? Open World? Full Loot? Tagged? Arenas?
PvE only?
Deep Crafting?
Housing?
Gear tread mill end game?
Skill based leveling or XP?
What kinds of time sinks are OK?
Yea, lots of differences of opinions there
PS: Sorry, Lok. I lost your thumbs-up smiley in the quote
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you. It's a developer's/publisher's job to find a market that has enough people to make a viable game. You're asking us to all gather under one roof and scream for a game to be made, but that's not how it works.
Actually, that's very similar to the reality of how it works. There are probably rare exceptions, but for the most part, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. We're talking about million dollar projects here. Building for a small group is risky. Building for an unknown group is stupidity.
Yes, every business venture begins with some understanding of the size of the target audience. I've never said differently. The question is does a business venture being with your target audience gathering on their own and demand a game with one voice? That doesn't seem to be the case, yet it's what is being asked of us.
AGAIN, it's a far simpler explanation to just say that WoW changed things at least temporarily.
Excellent. You finally understand Lizardbones' point then. Glad we're all on the same page now.
No. That's not what Lizardbones said. He didn't say there should be some understanding of the size of the target audience. The main thing he said was specifically about crowd funding. He also said that if such a market existed there would be websites dedicated to it with a lot of subscribers, twitter feeds, etc. That's totally different from simply saying that a company has to have SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE SIZE OF THE TARGET AUDIENCE. You're going from 0 to 60 with no nuance. I'm not saying it should be totally unknown, what I'm saying is you're asking for something that target demographics are never asked to do.
All of this is you guys scrambling around for SOME reason why these games aren't being made because you don't want to admit that WoW changed the market to the point that there are people who are being underserved. You want so badly for this to somehow be our fault that the games aren't being made, but it isn't our fault. It's because companies tried to emulate WoW's success. Now they've figured out that doesn't work so well and consequently more variety is being introduced into the genre. PERIOD.
SWG, UO, and Eve have all performed par for the course of MMORPGs. There wasn't a bunch of failed hardcore themeparks or sandboxes that failed released by major developers. There hasn't been overwhelming success of WoW clones. After 2004 you just have a sudden stop of many game outside of themeparks. Seems hard to say its not WoW influenced.This seems intuitive to me but for some reason a lot of people on these forums seem intent on putting the blame on us somehow.
I don't think anyone has put the blame on you.
What they've stated is if you want them, and you believe there is market, then you need to show the devs that market.
So we're not being blamed, but it's our fault that the games aren't being made because we haven't shown developers that we're a market that exists?No it isn't your fault that the games you want aren't being made.
However if you want a particular game, it is your responsibility to convince the people that make the games that there is a market for it.
The evidence points more to developers abandoning the market. Even if they manage 25% of WoW prime numbers you have a game wildly success for a MMORPG. If not you generally will be on par with another type of game or just go F2P. What could we possibly show that will show even a quarter of WoW potential? Its on developers to make different games.