- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Google a bit and you can find plenty of numbers out there on it, as it's been pretty consistent numbers for a few years now. Many links have been posted around here, too. Approx 80% or more of most F2P players never pay anything.
If this is true then it is pretty depressing to consider.
I've seen some articles suggesting 40% of F2P players pay, but of course as it's been said that might just be a single purchase at some point, not 40% are paying in the same game. They just did pay for something in some F2P game at some point in their lives.
At least that's what I'm getting from it.
Either way, it's unfortunate that the model is abused when it could be a good alternative to P2P.
Personally I prefer B2P with microtransactions, that way even if I don't spend much later in a cash shop I do feel I've contributed to the game.
Why do you feel that it is being abused and not that the business model is designed that way?
Also, if you take a step back and look at it objectively, you'll realize that "B2P with microtransaction" is "F2P with box fee" which makes it interesting that you would favor that one.
Why do people always do that?
B2P is F2P with box fee? The box fee is what makes it different.
A 5 dollar bill is 1 dollar that is worth 5. The worth is what makes it a 5 dollar bill. It's what makes it different.
A lion is a cat only bigger. This one is not the best example since there are actually many differences. However, it's pretty much doing the same thing.
My point is that it's a silly statement. B2P is F2P with box fee.
To tell someone something is the same and then to state the difference of the 2 ... is just ... funny. Which is it, different or the same? I guess I am just being picky here and a smartass. But still, I have heard that statement to much, like as if people think it really means something.
It mean exactly what was said. If you have trouble comprehending the difference that's your problem.
lol, I am not stupid. I know exactly what it means. The point I was trying to make was that it's stupid to even say something like that.
All the person is doing is pointing out what is different while saying it's the same at the same time. It's just plain silly.
I don't think you read the whole thread. Either that or you're intentionally changing what was written in order to argue some odd point.
His argument in the OP was that he can't see paying a sub + MT because if he's already paying the sub "what am I paying for" regarding the MT, but he does not hold box + MT to the same standard. Actually, he prefers box + MT over no sub, no box fee and straight MT. I found it interesting that he had issue with paying the sub and then would choose a model with the same issue as he preferred model.
You are the one misunderstanding. I wasn't commenting on his entire post. I was only commenting on that particular statement that I pointed out.
I just find the statement to be rather silly is all. I think you are over thinking what I am saying XD.
I am just pointing out that B2P is not the same as F2P. The box price is what makes them different. So to say B2P is just F2P with a box fee is stupid. It only over complicates it even more then it needs to be. Everyone is already aware what a B2P model is. We don't need it to be explained by breaking it down.
That is the second time you made the mistake so I assume you made a genuine error. The comparison was with "B2P with microtransations" not "B2P", which is why - based on his other statements - I said it was interesting that he chose one over the other.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yet there are plenty of people who play these games and never pay a penny. The majority of people who play F2P games do play them entirely free of charge. Thus, they really are free to play, so long as you're not a competitive twit that has to keep up with the Joneses.
That's the secret.
Is that a fact or is that just your opinion?
Sure there are plenty of people who will do everything in their power to get around paying anything, but it doesn't seem to me like those people stay for very long. Personally when I play a F2P, I will dabble with it for free for a while, but as soon as I get anywhere I start buying from the shop. Though I prefer to buy cosmetic items and such rather than items to be competitive.
But admittedly I don't have any hard numbers to back my word up either.
There was a thread around here not too long ago that gave all the stats and sources that proved the majority of F2P players pay *NOTHING*. You can go look for it, I'm sure someone will pop up shortly and provide a link.
Yes, but did they discuss the obvious question, "how many of those F2P accounts actually play and how many made an account and uninstalled" ? I imagine what you say is true, but I'm dubious of stats thrown around forums.
I mean, you have to also realize those stats aren't from, like, "general populace demographic". They are people who like to play video games, specifically "that" video game and are of various age and income demographic and machine specifications. I'm saying they're not saying, "72% of the people in the world don't pay for f2p", because probably 95%+ of the world doesn't give money to F2P games. Alot of times, figures are skewed by circumstances you might not imagine, like "millions of WoW subs sold as package deals to internet cafes in China".
It's the F2P evangelists who like to pretend there is only one game when in fact typically there are two very different ones: the free one and the one you need to unlock with cash.
There is only one game but you can, if you wish, purchase upgrades to enhance your experience. There are very few games out there with whole vast areas that only paid players can get any kind of access to. DDO used to have that, although with enough effort, you could access all of those areas for free if you wanted to as well.
Let us know when you come up with parts of the game that are totally beyond your access without a credit card and you might have a point. I haven't seen that.
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You lost me there. Of course I don't have that expectation...it's why I'm calling them "A" and "B."
So the "B" game is accurately F2P by your definition.
Yes...there is something you can do for free. I call it the "B" game.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
$15 a month, or even double that is nothing compared to a night out at pubs, a dinner and movie date, or seeing a Broadway play or admission to a real art museum like the Louvre. If you enjoy participating in something, it's silly to not give a little bit of credit where it's deserved, and since many around here get 80+ hours a month out of a game, well, you do the math. It's pennies per hour..
Well, I can't really afford to do any of these things myself. I work for minimum wage, part-time while in college. No, I can't afford to go eat out, or go to a movie, etc. except special occasions. Not that I really think it's worth the money to do so anyway.
Typically I try to keep things relevant. I don't compare the value of the monthly fee to doing things like going to a movie. I compare it to the value I get from other games.
For example, for $15 I can buy at least 3 good discounted AAA games these days. And after purchasing these games, I can play them when I want, for however long as I want, in whatever way I want. If I go for indie or classic games, I could get up to 15 games for $15.
The reality is I'm going to have to REALLY ENJOY that month of play in order for it to give me more "happiness value" to equal 15 games, especially considering in most cases I've already paid $60 just for the box fee. If I pay $15 for a month of play then it ends up being a boring month of play, I'm not going to be happy. Really I expect if I'm going to pay $15 a month then they should release new content every month, or at least a decent chunk of content after a few months, but I know that's not going to happen.
However, in a F2P, I can give the game money when I actually feel they've earned it. If I'm having fun with the game, I'm more likely to willingly buy something from the cash shop that might not be exactly worth what I'm paying, but I really think of it as just paying for the enjoyment the game has been giving me.
Don't get me wrong, I've been very tempted to subscribe to quite a few games, and of course I've been a subscriber before to quite a few. But I can't stand that feeling like when I subscribe I'm then obligated to play to get my money's worth. I can't play any of my other games, because they aren't costing me money to play. I have to play that game, because otherwise I wasted $15.
And when you have a tight budget like mine, you can't afford to just throw $15 away.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
You lost me there. Of course I don't have that expectation...it's why I'm calling them "A" and "B."
So the "B" game is accurately F2P by your definition.
Yes...there is something you can do for free. I call it the "B" game.
Great ... so ...
a) F2P is accurate to describe the B-game
b) The B-game is fun to me in many games, and that is the reason why many are playing MMO without paying.
...and many drink no-name cola too But hey, It's a pointless circular argument.
The important bit to me is not how aware you personally are about MMO advertising practices to know, going in, that some of the things in their ads are pay features. We who play lots of these games know the deal... and are occasionaly pleasantly surprised by games like POE.
But the fact that they promote a single game - the full meal deal, not the one you can get for free - and call it F2P is the deception most engage in.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
When I was in my mid 20s in the late 90s, 2 everquest accounts played in a room with cable internet and a router with my gf at the time was pretty much my whole luxury budget, so I know what you mean. Fortunately, my "entertainment budget" is a little higher now.
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
Oh I get you... "if it has an online component, it's an MMO"... hmm... where have we seen that before. That's just plain silly.
The only one of those that even approaches a reasonable definition of MMO - if you're willing to accept full instancing with MMO-like lobbies - is GW1.
Sinle player games are B2P... no surprise there lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
Oh I get you... "if it has an online component, it's an MMO"... hmm... where have we seen that before. That's just plain silly.
The only one of those that even approaches a reasonable definition of MMO - if you're willing to accept full instancing with MMO-like lobbies - is GW1.
Sinle player games are B2P... no surprise there lol.
Well, if you're going to set the definitions you should have a word with this site's sister site, and while you're at it ask why path of exile ads are splayed all over here.
edit: oh, and freelancer was over 2 years before gw.
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
Oh I get you... "if it has an online component, it's an MMO"... hmm... where have we seen that before. That's just plain silly.
The only one of those that even approaches a reasonable definition of MMO - if you're willing to accept full instancing with MMO-like lobbies - is GW1.
Sinle player games are B2P... no surprise there lol.
Well, if you're going to set the definitions you should have a word with this site's sister site, and while you're at it ask why path of exile ads are splayed all over here.
edit: oh, and freelancer was over 2 years before gw.
You might be new, but you're starting to catch on. Just what did you think I was referring to when I said "hmm... where have we seen that before?"
The coverage here has expanded into many more games than just MMOs over the years, which is one of the reasons the whole thing is currently being redesigned.
I don't think anyone who has played UO, EQ1 &2, AC1 & 2, DAoC, Lineage, SWG, WOW, EVE, etc., like most of us here have, are easily confused by the Diablos and NWNs of the world.
All of the early MMOs I listed above were sub based. That was the early MMO days economic model. B2P in the MMO world is a new idea that no one has implemented yet as true B2P
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
Oh I get you... "if it has an online component, it's an MMO"... hmm... where have we seen that before. That's just plain silly.
The only one of those that even approaches a reasonable definition of MMO - if you're willing to accept full instancing with MMO-like lobbies - is GW1.
Sinle player games are B2P... no surprise there lol.
Well, if you're going to set the definitions you should have a word with this site's sister site, and while you're at it ask why path of exile ads are splayed all over here.
edit: oh, and freelancer was over 2 years before gw.
You might be new, but you're starting to catch on. Just what did you think I was referring to when I said "hmm... where have we seen that before?"
The coverage here has expanded into many more games than just MMOs over the years, which is one of the reasons the whole thing is currently being redesigned.
I don't think anyone who has played UO, EQ1 &2, AC1 & 2, DAoC, Lineage, SWG, WOW, EVE, etc., like most of us here have, are easily confused by the Diablos and NWNs of the world.
All of the early MMOs I listed above were sub based. That was the early MMO days economic model. B2P in the MMO world is a new idea that no one has implemented yet as true B2P
I was playing on an EQ private server in 2001. Freelancer in 03 was every bit what you think a mmorpg is. GW in 05 still was considered by many the "superior" business model by many, and it would be years even then until a mainstream f2p caught on.
You said "name mmos", not "name mmorpgs" and in my reply I specifically mentioned private server mmorpg's. It's like you're arguing in circles now and changing the subject, re-defining words to fit your argument. Stop it.
I don't know about everyone else but that's what you guys get for not saying anything when companies started to twist meanings.
F2P is what it is, a game with no subscription OR "premium" options. They do have a cash shop for in game items.
Freemium is a game you can download a play for free however much of the game is locked and can only be unlocked by subscribing or spending a ton of money to unlock it all.
Turbine, Funcom and Sony all changed those two different things and made it into one by just plain calling their offerings F2P because they knew that one, players wont care enough to say anything and two...they would have no chance of getting the 20+ million F2P players around the world to even LOOK at their games if they didn't.
And as you can see by the populations of these Freemiums trying to come off as F2P, they didn't fool any them, just got former players to come back and a few subscription base gamers that are floating around to join in. No freemium game has come close to F2P revenue...never will.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
Oh I get you... "if it has an online component, it's an MMO"... hmm... where have we seen that before. That's just plain silly.
The only one of those that even approaches a reasonable definition of MMO - if you're willing to accept full instancing with MMO-like lobbies - is GW1.
Sinle player games are B2P... no surprise there lol.
Well, if you're going to set the definitions you should have a word with this site's sister site, and while you're at it ask why path of exile ads are splayed all over here.
edit: oh, and freelancer was over 2 years before gw.
You might be new, but you're starting to catch on. Just what did you think I was referring to when I said "hmm... where have we seen that before?"
The coverage here has expanded into many more games than just MMOs over the years, which is one of the reasons the whole thing is currently being redesigned.
I don't think anyone who has played UO, EQ1 &2, AC1 & 2, DAoC, Lineage, SWG, WOW, EVE, etc., like most of us here have, are easily confused by the Diablos and NWNs of the world.
All of the early MMOs I listed above were sub based. That was the early MMO days economic model. B2P in the MMO world is a new idea that no one has implemented yet as true B2P
I was playing on an EQ private server in 2001. Freelancer in 03 was every bit what you think a mmorpg is. GW in 05 still was considered by many the "superior" business model by many, and it would be years even then until a mainstream f2p caught on.
You said "name mmos", not "name mmorpgs" and in my reply I specifically mentioned private server mmorpg's. It's like you're arguing in circles now and changing the subject, re-defining words to fit your argument. Stop it.
Good idea since you don't seem to know what MMO means...it's "Massively Multiplayer Online" not just "Multiplayer Online." Massively refers to the number of people in the world at once not the size of the world. The max 128 in Freelancer or 64 NWN hardly meets the definition of MM, does it?
As I already said, the only one that you mentioned that even comes close is GW1. But its totally instanced game play makes the massively multiplayer part almost meaningless. Most considered it an MMO...but with reservations... and they did have a cash shop for character slots and other things beside the expansions didn't they?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This discussion isn't about that. Start a new thread and I won't argue "games with only 100 players to a server aren't mmos".
You've sidetracked the thread with your diatribe.
Hmm... I don't know... your "correction" of my post, post #54 above to be exact, seems like a sidetrack to me...doesn't it to you?
But good try calling my meticulous debunking of your nonsense a "diatribe"...ouch!
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This discussion isn't about that. Start a new thread and I won't argue "games with only 100 players to a server aren't mmos".
You've sidetracked the thread with your diatribe.
Hmm... I don't know... your "correction" of my post, post #54 above to be exact, seems like a sidetrack to me...doesn't it to you?
But good try calling my meticulous debunking of your nonsense a "diatribe"...ouch!
If by "meticulous" you mean f-ing up your side of "chicken or egg", so deflecting to "the chair isn't a chair", then I'd say you're doing a wonderful job.
Comments
- is not free to play. Like Secret World, it is buy to play. There is an initial investment you must make before you can access the software.
lol... yes... even worse then isn't it?
Or are you as literal-minded as the other guy who insists in making the B2P distinction despite the fact that after the box price there is also a cash store just like in any F2P title.
The B2P distinction is not really worth making since B2P MMOs that don't behave exactly like F2P after you've paid the up-front entry fee don't exist.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That is the second time you made the mistake so I assume you made a genuine error. The comparison was with "B2P with microtransations" not "B2P", which is why - based on his other statements - I said it was interesting that he chose one over the other.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, but did they discuss the obvious question, "how many of those F2P accounts actually play and how many made an account and uninstalled" ? I imagine what you say is true, but I'm dubious of stats thrown around forums.
I mean, you have to also realize those stats aren't from, like, "general populace demographic". They are people who like to play video games, specifically "that" video game and are of various age and income demographic and machine specifications. I'm saying they're not saying, "72% of the people in the world don't pay for f2p", because probably 95%+ of the world doesn't give money to F2P games. Alot of times, figures are skewed by circumstances you might not imagine, like "millions of WoW subs sold as package deals to internet cafes in China".
There is only one game but you can, if you wish, purchase upgrades to enhance your experience. There are very few games out there with whole vast areas that only paid players can get any kind of access to. DDO used to have that, although with enough effort, you could access all of those areas for free if you wanted to as well.
Let us know when you come up with parts of the game that are totally beyond your access without a credit card and you might have a point. I haven't seen that.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You're not acquainted with the evolution of the mmo pay systems. AAA mmos were P2P or they were B2P. No one early on ventured a FTP with cash shop. You can always recognize "newer" players by this.
So the "B" game is accurately F2P by your definition.
Except there's a ton of old-school players like myself who used to play P2P games and now play F2P games, if we play MMOs at all, which increasingly we're not. Times change. Get used to it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Get used to what? You're misunderstanding something. I don't care what you do. The issue is whether B2p is a legitimate classification of product "subscription" and the answer is "the payment model existed before f2p", therefore it's totally relevant.
Well then educate us new MMOers who only started in the 90s... which MMOs from the old days were B2P?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yes...there is something you can do for free. I call it the "B" game.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Great ... so ...
a) F2P is accurate to describe the B-game
b) The B-game is fun to me in many games, and that is the reason why many are playing MMO without paying.
Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, mmorpgs with private servers, the first bioware neverwinter, from my experience. There were others.
Then came, like, Freelancer, Guildwars, NWN2, and people were just starting to say "F2P is the payment model of the future!"
Well, I can't really afford to do any of these things myself. I work for minimum wage, part-time while in college. No, I can't afford to go eat out, or go to a movie, etc. except special occasions. Not that I really think it's worth the money to do so anyway.
Typically I try to keep things relevant. I don't compare the value of the monthly fee to doing things like going to a movie. I compare it to the value I get from other games.
For example, for $15 I can buy at least 3 good discounted AAA games these days. And after purchasing these games, I can play them when I want, for however long as I want, in whatever way I want. If I go for indie or classic games, I could get up to 15 games for $15.
The reality is I'm going to have to REALLY ENJOY that month of play in order for it to give me more "happiness value" to equal 15 games, especially considering in most cases I've already paid $60 just for the box fee. If I pay $15 for a month of play then it ends up being a boring month of play, I'm not going to be happy. Really I expect if I'm going to pay $15 a month then they should release new content every month, or at least a decent chunk of content after a few months, but I know that's not going to happen.
However, in a F2P, I can give the game money when I actually feel they've earned it. If I'm having fun with the game, I'm more likely to willingly buy something from the cash shop that might not be exactly worth what I'm paying, but I really think of it as just paying for the enjoyment the game has been giving me.
Don't get me wrong, I've been very tempted to subscribe to quite a few games, and of course I've been a subscriber before to quite a few. But I can't stand that feeling like when I subscribe I'm then obligated to play to get my money's worth. I can't play any of my other games, because they aren't costing me money to play. I have to play that game, because otherwise I wasted $15.
And when you have a tight budget like mine, you can't afford to just throw $15 away.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
Currently Playing: Dungeon Fighter Online Global
Waiting for: None
...and many drink no-name cola too
But hey, It's a pointless circular argument.
The important bit to me is not how aware you personally are about MMO advertising practices to know, going in, that some of the things in their ads are pay features. We who play lots of these games know the deal... and are occasionaly pleasantly surprised by games like POE.
But the fact that they promote a single game - the full meal deal, not the one you can get for free - and call it F2P is the deception most engage in.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Oh I get you... "if it has an online component, it's an MMO"... hmm... where have we seen that before. That's just plain silly.
The only one of those that even approaches a reasonable definition of MMO - if you're willing to accept full instancing with MMO-like lobbies - is GW1.
Sinle player games are B2P... no surprise there lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Well, if you're going to set the definitions you should have a word with this site's sister site, and while you're at it ask why path of exile ads are splayed all over here.
edit: oh, and freelancer was over 2 years before gw.
You might be new, but you're starting to catch on. Just what did you think I was referring to when I said "hmm... where have we seen that before?"
The coverage here has expanded into many more games than just MMOs over the years, which is one of the reasons the whole thing is currently being redesigned.
I don't think anyone who has played UO, EQ1 &2, AC1 & 2, DAoC, Lineage, SWG, WOW, EVE, etc., like most of us here have, are easily confused by the Diablos and NWNs of the world.
All of the early MMOs I listed above were sub based. That was the early MMO days economic model. B2P in the MMO world is a new idea that no one has implemented yet as true B2P
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I was playing on an EQ private server in 2001. Freelancer in 03 was every bit what you think a mmorpg is. GW in 05 still was considered by many the "superior" business model by many, and it would be years even then until a mainstream f2p caught on.
You said "name mmos", not "name mmorpgs" and in my reply I specifically mentioned private server mmorpg's. It's like you're arguing in circles now and changing the subject, re-defining words to fit your argument. Stop it.
I don't know about everyone else but that's what you guys get for not saying anything when companies started to twist meanings.
F2P is what it is, a game with no subscription OR "premium" options. They do have a cash shop for in game items.
Freemium is a game you can download a play for free however much of the game is locked and can only be unlocked by subscribing or spending a ton of money to unlock it all.
Turbine, Funcom and Sony all changed those two different things and made it into one by just plain calling their offerings F2P because they knew that one, players wont care enough to say anything and two...they would have no chance of getting the 20+ million F2P players around the world to even LOOK at their games if they didn't.
And as you can see by the populations of these Freemiums trying to come off as F2P, they didn't fool any them, just got former players to come back and a few subscription base gamers that are floating around to join in. No freemium game has come close to F2P revenue...never will.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Good idea since you don't seem to know what MMO means...it's "Massively Multiplayer Online" not just "Multiplayer Online." Massively refers to the number of people in the world at once not the size of the world. The max 128 in Freelancer or 64 NWN hardly meets the definition of MM, does it?
As I already said, the only one that you mentioned that even comes close is GW1. But its totally instanced game play makes the massively multiplayer part almost meaningless. Most considered it an MMO...but with reservations... and they did have a cash shop for character slots and other things beside the expansions didn't they?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This discussion isn't about that. Start a new thread and I won't argue "games with only 100 players to a server aren't mmos".
You've sidetracked the thread with your diatribe.
Hmm... I don't know... your "correction" of my post, post #54 above to be exact, seems like a sidetrack to me...doesn't it to you?
But good try calling my meticulous debunking of your nonsense a "diatribe"...ouch!
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If by "meticulous" you mean f-ing up your side of "chicken or egg", so deflecting to "the chair isn't a chair", then I'd say you're doing a wonderful job.