hopefully more mobas release so that these type of instant gratification players leave mmo's. It doesn't say much about a game if most people can't bear to level through it. Makes me think are people doing it for fun or for some kind of nerdy online rep?
How did we get from living in a world for a year and still not getting to end level, to making a new account and "poof, welcome to your final destination?" I don't know, can we agree that this type of attitude has nothing to do with the RPG aspects of games?
Just as much character advancement happens after you hit the max level as happens on your journey to it.
WoW is also a 9+ year old game - most people who play have been through 1-90 more times than they can count.
I think there is a BIG difference between what WoW: WoD is doing and offering a geared level 90 in the store for 25$.
Content has a shelf life in MMO's because the content is poorly designed. People don't want to run TBC to gear up because the gear-grinding is the real grind.
Plenty of people still run TBC content for *gasp* fun!
As well as transmog gear, mounts, achievements...
Are you saying YOUR way to play is the only way to play a MMORPG correctly?
So then, you're disagreeing with the article then, too.
People still run it because they enjoy the content; this article says that that content is outdated and boring.
Which is it?
My statement isn't a dig at WoW as much as it is with all MMO "content". It tends to invalidate old stuff. But like you say, some people enjoy it. If you're using this paid pass, you'll never even know if this content is fun, because you'll be skipping it.
Probably not. You'll be bashing the same rotations on things that look slightly different. You will be missing out on story and lore. However if your that type of gamer who cares about that you will start from the beginning at least once.
That's like me playing a platformer, and then saying "God, I hate platformers, they are just the worst thing ever..."
If that's how you feel about the game, then why suffer through it? There are 1000's of games to choose for and numerous genres. I feel like if you hate leveling, character development, socializing with new people, running dungeons, questing, and gear grinding, then MMO's aren't for you. At BEST, this gets Blizzard a brief, temporary boost to their subs. I mean, honestly, if you hate every aspect of an MMO other than that your friend plays it, how long, actually, are you probably going to keep playing it?
The logic just isn't there.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
What's the point to have expansions, if they work as a new stand-alone game. Why not just release a new game and let the old one die if the old content is worthless.
Many people don't find old content worthless.
Horizontal expansion sounds great on paper, I've talked about it quite a bit on these boards over the years.
But at the end of the day, it's really "6 of one or a half dozen of the other."
"If you build it they will come" is true - you could release new maps, dungeons, raids etc. and people would go complete them just for the experience.
But they know you usually need to sweeten the pot - offer new looks, cosmetic rewards etc.
But that is still (proven) to not be enough for many - you need to really spice up the deal and provide continual advancement.
Content has a shelf life in MMO's because the content is poorly designed. People don't want to run TBC to gear up because the gear-grinding is the real grind.
Plenty of people still run TBC content for *gasp* fun!
As well as transmog gear, mounts, achievements...
Are you saying YOUR way to play is the only way to play a MMORPG correctly?
So then, you're disagreeing with the article then, too.
People still run it because they enjoy the content; this article says that that content is outdated and boring.
Which is it?
My statement isn't a dig at WoW as much as it is with all MMO "content". It tends to invalidate old stuff. But like you say, some people enjoy it. If you're using this paid pass, you'll never even know if this content is fun, because you'll be skipping it.
I said for some people it is suffering. Not all.
Why the hell would you play a game that makes you feel like you're suffering? Life is too short for that kind of crazy.
I can understand why long time WoW players would want instant lvl for alts. That is because MMO's like WoW make lvls feel like handicaps. The closer you get to max lvl and all the content that opens up for you, the less it feels like a handicap for a WoW veteran. These games are filled with silly arbitrary gates that prevent low lvl players to participate into certain activities. For me these games got the lvl based classes all wrong. The main flaw imo is that untill a certain lvl your class is boring and plays gimped because they are clearly designed with a certain higher lvl in mind. It is like a tutorial you can't skip even on your 100th play through.
In normal rpg's it is the journey that gradually makes your character stronger and a lvl system is just one of the ways to express your progression. The story or exploration drives your character, not some arbitrary lvl number.
So then, you're disagreeing with the article then, too.
People still run it because they enjoy the content; this article says that that content is outdated and boring.
Which is it?
My statement isn't a dig at WoW as much as it is with all MMO "content". It tends to invalidate old stuff. But like you say, some people enjoy it. If you're using this paid pass, you'll never even know if this content is fun, because you'll be skipping it.
I said for some people it is suffering. Not all.
Why the hell would you play a game that makes you feel like you're suffering? Life is too short for that kind of crazy.
Such awful "arguments" today...
Some people will "suffer" through the boring bits to get to the bits they find more enjoyable.
If you gave them an option to get to what bits they find more enjoyable without the suffering part, many would take it. Others would say "it makes it feel better/worth more when you get there."
Come on people, this is not a hard concept to grasp...
So then, you're disagreeing with the article then, too.
People still run it because they enjoy the content; this article says that that content is outdated and boring.
Which is it?
My statement isn't a dig at WoW as much as it is with all MMO "content". It tends to invalidate old stuff. But like you say, some people enjoy it. If you're using this paid pass, you'll never even know if this content is fun, because you'll be skipping it.
I said for some people it is suffering. Not all.
Why the hell would you play a game that makes you feel like you're suffering? Life is too short for that kind of crazy.
Such awful "arguments" today...
Some people will "suffer" through the boring bits to get to the bits they find more enjoyable.
If you gave them an option to get to what bits they find more enjoyable without the suffering part, many would take it. Others would say "it makes it feel better/worth more when you get there."
Come on people, this is not a hard concept to grasp...
I've never felt like i was suffering while playing an mmo i liked. God only knows what you're doing.
Its a horrible idea. Why? Because it cheapens the experience for everyone. Why should I care what others do or get? Because in an MMO other players are supposed to be interacted with, if they have less interest/investment in the game they are less likely to stay, creating all sorts of guild, game-play, and social interaction problems.
You can't quote his 1-line sentence and neglect the paragraph I wrote out.
I get the concept... it's just a pisspoor one.
One line version of what is being advocated: "Skip all the "boring" parts of the game, like leveling, previous content, dungeons, and gear grinding, and play with your friends at your own pace!"
One line version of the opposition: "If you hate 90% of the game, you probably won't like the last 10% of it either"
Surely you can appreciate that simple concept.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I can understand why long time WoW players would want instant lvl for alts. That is because MMO's like WoW make lvls feel like handicaps. The closer you get to max lvl and all the content that opens up for you, the less it feels like a handicap for a WoW veteran. These games are filled with silly arbitrary gates that prevent low lvl players to participate into certain activities. For me these games got the lvl based classes all wrong. The main flaw imo is that untill a certain lvl your class is boring and plays gimped because they are clearly designed with a certain higher lvl in mind.
In normal rpg's it is the journey that gradually makes your character stronger and a lvl system is just one of the ways to express your progression.
+1
Why would anyone be unhappy about buying a toon to actually get to the good stuff.
Some players do find the whole leveling process a tutorial. The thing is the tutorial lasts for to damn long. Why can't they bypass the filler to get to what they find fun.
What isn't being generally acknowledged is just how incredibly top-heavy these (particularly older) games really are. When the game is in a stage of its life-cycle where the only low-level characters are alts being power-leveled or brand new players dipping their toes into the game then an insta-level option is of great benefit. Virtually all games struggle with this to an extent; even a well-populated GW2 server will have mid-level zones where events are hard to complete due to lack of players.
EQ2 is perhaps the greatest example of this, with empty zones, dungeons, and a scarcity of groups for most of the leveling path. If nothing else it's a wise business decision to provide an optional boost because there's no bigger turnoff for a perspective MMO player than to feel as if the world is devoid of players or that all the fun stuff is waiting 80-some levels away.
Finally, I do find the tooth-gnashing about high level noobs with no idea how to play their characters somewhat amusing. Haven't we been told ad nauseum that today's MMOs are facerollingly easy with no challenge whatsoever? If that's the case, new players should have no problems adapting and learning how to play in a very short time.
Why the hell would you play a game that makes you feel like you're suffering? Life is too short for that kind of crazy.
Such awful "arguments" today...
Some people will "suffer" through the boring bits to get to the bits they find more enjoyable.
If you gave them an option to get to what bits they find more enjoyable without the suffering part, many would take it. Others would say "it makes it feel better/worth more when you get there."
Come on people, this is not a hard concept to grasp...
I've never felt like i was suffering while playing an mmo i liked. God only knows what you're doing.
Never have either, but thanks for assuming.
I have felt a little bored with the grind, but powered through to hit the goal I was reaching for.
It's amazing what a little music can do to help power through a slow spot.
What isn't being generally acknowledged is just how incredibly top-heavy these (particularly older) games really are. When the game is in a stage of its life-cycle where the only low-level characters are alts being power-leveled or brand new players dipping their toes into the game then an insta-level option is of great benefit. Virtually all games struggle with this to an extent; even a well-populated GW2 server will have mid-level zones where events are hard to complete due to lack of players.
It's the old... "How do you provide a sense of progression?" in a MMO game to hit the RPG basket
and the "how do you keep players playing together?" MMO basket.
The answer is usually "give newer players ways to help contribute and play with older players."
Personally, I like the EvE model where it's pretty quick to skill up enough to fly one thing decently well enough to contribute, but takes forever to really cross-specialize and get into the meta-game.
Too bad I hate nearly everything else about EvE.
But in a world of levels, you can either do boosts or level up-scaling/down-scaling - but if the whole game is accessible from day one, where is the progression?
I've seen a LOT of complaints and bad arguments in this thread, but no new/different answer to these questions.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 You should have to have a max level character already if you want to instant level to 90, I think that's actually the case.
Nope, brand new account gets the 1 boosted character to 90 instantly.
I don't think you as a player really gain much grinding out the first 75-80% of the game in these older games especially after you have already done it once. There is plenty of time to learn your class in those last 10 levels which take much longer and require much more use of special skills anyways. What do you really gain by spending a couple weeks grinding though boring kill X or fetch Y quests killing mobs in 1-2 hits with a tweaked toon?
What does bother me is the prices they are charging for this service. EQ2 gave all subscribers one instant upgrade for free than charges $35.00 each for additional ones and it's likely that Blizzard will do the same. I don't think subscribers should be able to do a unlimited number of these or even 1 a month but maybe one every year of sub's or so would be a nice jester that would keep this from looking quite so much like a cash grab.
I don't think you as a player really gain much grinding out the first 75-80% of the game in these older games especially after you have already done it once. There is plenty of time to learn your class in those last 10 levels which take much longer and require much more use of special skills anyways. What do you really gain by spending a couple weeks grinding though boring kill X or fetch Y quests killing mobs in 1-2 hits with a tweaked toon?
What does bother me is the prices they are charging for this service. EQ2 gave all subscribers one instant upgrade for free than charges $35.00 each for additional ones and it's likely that Blizzard will do the same. I don't think subscribers should be able to do a unlimited number of these or even 1 a month but maybe one every year of sub's or so would be a nice jester that would keep this from looking quite so much like a cash grab.
The quests don't get any better at level 90 so there really is no rush to get there. All dungeons are pretty much the same. It's actually harder to kill mobs at lower levels than it is at max level.
I think it's a horrible idea. If a player already has a max level character in a given game, I'll concede the argument that they've already run the content treadmill, and shouldn't have to do it again.
But a new player that doesn't have XX levels of practicing their class skills? Why would I want to group with them?
I think it's a horrible idea. If a player already has a max level character in a given game, I'll concede the argument that they've already run the content treadmill, and shouldn't have to do it again.
But a new player that doesn't have XX levels of practicing their class skills? Why would I want to group with them?
You probably don't want to group with someone who can't figure out their class skills with 15-20 minutes of practice.
XX levels isn't going to help such a poor soul much.
Just hope they aren't trying to heal/tank and you can just carry them.
Comments
Just as much character advancement happens after you hit the max level as happens on your journey to it.
WoW is also a 9+ year old game - most people who play have been through 1-90 more times than they can count.
I think there is a BIG difference between what WoW: WoD is doing and offering a geared level 90 in the store for 25$.
Probably not. You'll be bashing the same rotations on things that look slightly different. You will be missing out on story and lore. However if your that type of gamer who cares about that you will start from the beginning at least once.
Then why even play the game?!?
That's like me playing a platformer, and then saying "God, I hate platformers, they are just the worst thing ever..."
If that's how you feel about the game, then why suffer through it? There are 1000's of games to choose for and numerous genres. I feel like if you hate leveling, character development, socializing with new people, running dungeons, questing, and gear grinding, then MMO's aren't for you. At BEST, this gets Blizzard a brief, temporary boost to their subs. I mean, honestly, if you hate every aspect of an MMO other than that your friend plays it, how long, actually, are you probably going to keep playing it?
The logic just isn't there.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Many people don't find old content worthless.
Horizontal expansion sounds great on paper, I've talked about it quite a bit on these boards over the years.
But at the end of the day, it's really "6 of one or a half dozen of the other."
"If you build it they will come" is true - you could release new maps, dungeons, raids etc. and people would go complete them just for the experience.
But they know you usually need to sweeten the pot - offer new looks, cosmetic rewards etc.
But that is still (proven) to not be enough for many - you need to really spice up the deal and provide continual advancement.
Which means bigger numbers, better stats.
Why the hell would you play a game that makes you feel like you're suffering? Life is too short for that kind of crazy.
I can understand why long time WoW players would want instant lvl for alts. That is because MMO's like WoW make lvls feel like handicaps. The closer you get to max lvl and all the content that opens up for you, the less it feels like a handicap for a WoW veteran. These games are filled with silly arbitrary gates that prevent low lvl players to participate into certain activities. For me these games got the lvl based classes all wrong. The main flaw imo is that untill a certain lvl your class is boring and plays gimped because they are clearly designed with a certain higher lvl in mind. It is like a tutorial you can't skip even on your 100th play through.
In normal rpg's it is the journey that gradually makes your character stronger and a lvl system is just one of the ways to express your progression. The story or exploration drives your character, not some arbitrary lvl number.
Such awful "arguments" today...
Some people will "suffer" through the boring bits to get to the bits they find more enjoyable.
If you gave them an option to get to what bits they find more enjoyable without the suffering part, many would take it. Others would say "it makes it feel better/worth more when you get there."
Come on people, this is not a hard concept to grasp...
I've never felt like i was suffering while playing an mmo i liked. God only knows what you're doing.
You can't quote his 1-line sentence and neglect the paragraph I wrote out.
I get the concept... it's just a pisspoor one.
One line version of what is being advocated: "Skip all the "boring" parts of the game, like leveling, previous content, dungeons, and gear grinding, and play with your friends at your own pace!"
One line version of the opposition: "If you hate 90% of the game, you probably won't like the last 10% of it either"
Surely you can appreciate that simple concept.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
+1
Why would anyone be unhappy about buying a toon to actually get to the good stuff.
Some players do find the whole leveling process a tutorial. The thing is the tutorial lasts for to damn long. Why can't they bypass the filler to get to what they find fun.
What isn't being generally acknowledged is just how incredibly top-heavy these (particularly older) games really are. When the game is in a stage of its life-cycle where the only low-level characters are alts being power-leveled or brand new players dipping their toes into the game then an insta-level option is of great benefit. Virtually all games struggle with this to an extent; even a well-populated GW2 server will have mid-level zones where events are hard to complete due to lack of players.
EQ2 is perhaps the greatest example of this, with empty zones, dungeons, and a scarcity of groups for most of the leveling path. If nothing else it's a wise business decision to provide an optional boost because there's no bigger turnoff for a perspective MMO player than to feel as if the world is devoid of players or that all the fun stuff is waiting 80-some levels away.
Finally, I do find the tooth-gnashing about high level noobs with no idea how to play their characters somewhat amusing. Haven't we been told ad nauseum that today's MMOs are facerollingly easy with no challenge whatsoever? If that's the case, new players should have no problems adapting and learning how to play in a very short time.
Never have either, but thanks for assuming.
I have felt a little bored with the grind, but powered through to hit the goal I was reaching for.
It's amazing what a little music can do to help power through a slow spot.
It's the old... "How do you provide a sense of progression?" in a MMO game to hit the RPG basket
and the "how do you keep players playing together?" MMO basket.
The answer is usually "give newer players ways to help contribute and play with older players."
Personally, I like the EvE model where it's pretty quick to skill up enough to fly one thing decently well enough to contribute, but takes forever to really cross-specialize and get into the meta-game.
Too bad I hate nearly everything else about EvE.
But in a world of levels, you can either do boosts or level up-scaling/down-scaling - but if the whole game is accessible from day one, where is the progression?
I've seen a LOT of complaints and bad arguments in this thread, but no new/different answer to these questions.
It's not instant max level, it's instant to 90. Max level is 100.
Nope, brand new account gets the 1 boosted character to 90 instantly.
I don't think you as a player really gain much grinding out the first 75-80% of the game in these older games especially after you have already done it once. There is plenty of time to learn your class in those last 10 levels which take much longer and require much more use of special skills anyways. What do you really gain by spending a couple weeks grinding though boring kill X or fetch Y quests killing mobs in 1-2 hits with a tweaked toon?
What does bother me is the prices they are charging for this service. EQ2 gave all subscribers one instant upgrade for free than charges $35.00 each for additional ones and it's likely that Blizzard will do the same. I don't think subscribers should be able to do a unlimited number of these or even 1 a month but maybe one every year of sub's or so would be a nice jester that would keep this from looking quite so much like a cash grab.
I'm just curious what level of gear the insta-90 toons will have.
I'm assuming in the 496-528 ilvl range, but probably greens - and cause of item/stat squish - who knows how comparable to current 528+ epics?
Also - if they will have Pandaria level secondary skills, maybe even primary crafting/gathering skills?
I really bet/assume they are going to use the Garrison system to quickly catch up toons primary/secondary crafting skills.
The quests don't get any better at level 90 so there really is no rush to get there. All dungeons are pretty much the same. It's actually harder to kill mobs at lower levels than it is at max level.
it's an optional choice - i see no issues w that
I'd rather slog through the lower levels for myself (except for Cata content which I despise)
EQ2 fan sites
Blizzard did it, SOE has done it.
I think it's a horrible idea. If a player already has a max level character in a given game, I'll concede the argument that they've already run the content treadmill, and shouldn't have to do it again.
But a new player that doesn't have XX levels of practicing their class skills? Why would I want to group with them?
You probably don't want to group with someone who can't figure out their class skills with 15-20 minutes of practice.
XX levels isn't going to help such a poor soul much.
Just hope they aren't trying to heal/tank and you can just carry them.