There are two different discussion points here. One is the idea of randomness in-game and the other is randomness in the cash shop. I don't really mind randomness in the game as it adds a bit of flavor and longevity to the game. I remember when SWTOR first came out and my entire raid force was geared out in a matter of a couple weeks. It really sucked the life out of the game having individual drops. The only way that would work is if they made progression much and I mean much deeper.
The other form of randomness in the cash shop I hate and tend to avoid games that do it. It's not that I have a issue with gambling per say but those boxes are little more than ways to charge in some cases $100 or more for a single item without having to put a price tag on it. Plus they have this way of consuming the best (subjective term for sure) content either stat or appearance wise in the game again because they can command such huge price tags on them and those guaranteed crafting success items that some games sell are just P2W in it's most base form.
When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?
When chest box reward drop a crap ?
When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?
When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?
The joy they bring are little but most time it cause you mad.
So why we keep the random gamble ?
What do you expect? Should the game ask you to watch 3 episodes of Breaking bad for level or maybe to have sex with nabors dougters sister or go buy coffe at the store.What do you expect mate?
Originally posted by Scot Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
My guess is you never played L2 when it was still sub. It was doing random before WOW came out =P Only one race/class could craft(the race could craft to a certain point then they had to choose to either gather or craft at higher lvls) and they were the most efficient gatherers as well. When you crafted something high lvl you had a large fail chance which was made lower by having more mats or a better recipe.
Same went for enchanting gear, a friend of mine had these amazing +22 dual katanas and there really wasn't a monetary value they were worth so much.. ppl rarely went beyond 5. He would get drunk or high and gamble his ass off and was lucky.. until he wasnt and they went poof. Most gear you just took to +3 and left.
What F2P has brought to it is being able to buy those advantages like the lower chance of fail.. but they in no way started it.
Failure to achieve a desired goal when attempting to do something based upon a character's ability isn't random. It is probability-based, with modifiers based on aptitude and any number of other environmental or player-input based elements made possible (or not) by the system mechanics particular to the game being played. The RNG is just an admittedly imperfect way to simulate a potentially infinite number of variables that could affect the level of success of such an action.
Obviously, probabilities of things like boss drops and chest contents are conventionally "purely" randomized, and these things can be frustrating whether as a sense of futility/wasted time or as an affront to logic. It is possible to avoid this through design elements. Crafter-driven games could focus instead on material drops, which could provide for both increased believability and for mechanical cohesiveness and usability. A rare material that can be used for creating multiple things is ostensibly useful to a wide range of different character types, for example. What lizardbones suggested about making drops relevant in a lore/rp sense makes a lot of sense to me.
At the end of the day, though, I like a bit of chaos
Originally posted by ScotGambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.
Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ?You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for.If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.
Sure the OP mentioned all kinds of random gameplay, but I just talked about lockbox gambling. Where did I mention RNG in other gameplay? You are going on as if I said randomness was invented by the F2P finance model, just read what I posted. And why we are on that like I said its about Cash Shops which are in P2P/B2P MMOs. That means its across the financial models.
You made a fair point about P2P having time as gambling, in that we pay for time so anything that is random is a gamble. I don't see it that way, raiding does not involve gambling until you make people pay for the chance of a good item. Flat fees for all gameplay do not do that.
So think of this as a F2P nerd rant if you want, regardless of what I actually post. I do not hide where I stand this is "as usual" for me. I don't think I need that in a signature box mind you and nor do you.
But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?
That's my reply to Vengesunsoar and Lokifeit as well to save a massive wall of text.
Originally posted by udon There are two different discussion points here. One is the idea of randomness in-game and the other is randomness in the cash shop. I don't really mind randomness in the game as it adds a bit of flavor and longevity to the game. I remember when SWTOR first came out and my entire raid force was geared out in a matter of a couple weeks. It really sucked the life out of the game having individual drops. The only way that would work is if they made progression much and I mean much deeper.The other form of randomness in the cash shop I hate and tend to avoid games that do it. It's not that I have a issue with gambling per say but those boxes are little more than ways to charge in some cases $100 or more for a single item without having to put a price tag on it. Plus they have this way of consuming the best (subjective term for sure) content either stat or appearance wise in the game again because they can command such huge price tags on them and those guaranteed crafting success items that some games sell are just P2W in it's most base form.
Is the randomness in a game (p2p) all that different from randomness in the cash shop (f2p)? A player pays a sub for a game, and has a random chance of getting X drops. A play plays a game for free, but pays money for a random chance of getting X drops. The difference is when the player is paying to play the game, and how much they can affect the drop rate with what they are paying. In both cases the player is paying money to the developer to get drops based on the developer determined drop rate that is relative to the amount of money a player is paying.
I do not like the idea of crafting having a chance to be successful, unless the player can affect that chance and slide it to a guarantee of success. Ditto for enchanting, but in my mind, enchanting is just a form of crafting.
Drop rates of items are something else entirely. Random drops are something that's been around for a long time. My preference would be for the drops to be something from the thing dropping it though. Helmets should not drop from wolves or rats unless they are big enough to have eaten something that wears a helmet. The helmet should need some repair as well, since it's been digesting for awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by ScotGambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.
Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ?You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for.If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.
Sure the OP mentioned all kinds of random gameplay, but I just talked about lockbox gambling. Where did I mention RNG in other gameplay? You are going on as if I said randomness was invented by the F2P finance model, just read what I posted. And why we are on that like I said its about Cash Shops which are in P2P/B2P MMOs. That means its across the financial models.
You made a fair point about P2P having time as gambling, in that we pay for time so anything that is random is a gamble. I don't see it that way, raiding does not involve gambling until you make people pay for the chance of a good item. Flat fees for all gameplay do not do that.
So think of this as a F2P nerd rant if you want, regardless of what I actually post. I do not hide where I stand this is "as usual" for me. I don't think I need that in a signature box mind you and nor do you.
But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?
That's my reply to Vengesunsoar and Lokifeit as well to save a massive wall of text.
The topic was about RNG.
You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.
They are different.
If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?
The topic was about RNG.
You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.
They are different.
If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread.
Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.
He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.
But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?
The topic was about RNG.
You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.
They are different.
If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread.
Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.
He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.
I choose to zero in on what I thought was the worse aspect of what the OP brought up, the gambling element of chest boxes. The rest of what he said is not a concern to me, in fact I agree with those of you that it has always been there. So I am hardly going to go on about that am I? If that's an off topic rant, you are just making it up as you go along.
Originally posted by Scot Gambling is the newish F2P disease.
Seriously? UO, SWG, EVE, EQ, AC... none of them had the stuff the OP is talking about - random loot, random drops or random change of failure at crafting? Is this revisionist history or just a really polarized view blanketing every aspect of MMOs for you?
My guess is revisionist history. Every mob in Lineage was a "loot box". The whole purpose of killing mobs in that game, especially since there were essentially no quests, was to open the mob loot box. Every mob contained the following:
1. A static xp amount with a relative level modifier
2. A random amount of cash within a range (e.g.: 10 - 20 gold)
3. A random number of drops from a predefined loot table. For example, this "tough" bugbear mob would contain at least 3 drops of which one would be of at least high quality or better.
That is how most every lockbox I see described works. The developers would calculate how much reward these lockboxes would add to the game world in a given period and how tough it was to open them (ie: defeat the mob). They could count on x number of months of sub revenue added to the game based on mob toughness, loot tables, and the xp leveling curve.
So Scot was right until he revised history to further his anti-f2p agenda.
I would say that even though the random loot carrot seems horrible it's what drives a lot of our mmo play. We like getting goodies and gambling for the chance to win big. If it was all predictable the games would be a lot more boring as well. Some element of chance and surprise keeps it interesting. It's all about balance.
I agree, but were you paying to open that "loot box" via a cash shop key in Lineage? Once again, this is about cash shops, I point the finger more at F2P as that financial model introduced them. This will seem strange to you but I don't excuse P2P/B2P here simply because they are not F2P.
the encounter is so dificult that the chance to actualy win it is 1 out of 50 attempts
yea that might work right?
Other wise we will be working on new content and bosses at every single sitting and that removes that "familaririty" that most players know and love. I mean yea exploration is great but with out familarity exploration loses its charm right>?
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.
Wut?
The RNG drives many things in games, not just lock boxes. The RNG is just one tool among many that the developer uses to make things happen in a game. It's how the RNG is used that determines whether it's cool or not.
**
If it's the RNG that's the demon here, it doesn't matter if the RNG is being used to determine boss loot or lock box loot. It doesn't matter if the RNG is being used in a P2P game or a F2P game. The RNG is the demon in either case.
Saying that lock boxes in F2P games are bad does nothing to describe why RNGs generating loot are bad. It doesn't even explain why the loot in lock boxes being random is bad.
A much better job needs to be done talking about the RNG aspects of F2P/Lock Boxes if you're going to effectively work them into the conversation. Otherwise you just sound like a loony who played a F2P game and didn't "win".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Scot Gambling is the newish F2P disease.
Seriously? UO, SWG, EVE, EQ, AC... none of them had the stuff the OP is talking about - random loot, random drops or random change of failure at crafting? Is this revisionist history or just a really polarized view blanketing every aspect of MMOs for you?
My guess is revisionist history. Every mob in Lineage was a "loot box". The whole purpose of killing mobs in that game, especially since there were essentially no quests, was to open the mob loot box. Every mob contained the following:
1. A static xp amount with a relative level modifier
2. A random amount of cash within a range (e.g.: 10 - 20 gold)
3. A random number of drops from a predefined loot table. For example, this "tough" bugbear mob would contain at least 3 drops of which one would be of at least high quality or better.
That is how most every lockbox I see described works. The developers would calculate how much reward these lockboxes would add to the game world in a given period and how tough it was to open them (ie: defeat the mob). They could count on x number of months of sub revenue added to the game based on mob toughness, loot tables, and the xp leveling curve.
So Scot was right until he revised history to further his anti-f2p agenda.
I would say that even though the random loot carrot seems horrible it's what drives a lot of our mmo play. We like getting goodies and gambling for the chance to win big. If it was all predictable the games would be a lot more boring as well. Some element of chance and surprise keeps it interesting. It's all about balance.
I agree, but were you paying to open that "loot box" via a cash shop key in Lineage? Once again, this is about cash shops, I point the finger more at F2P as that financial model introduced them. This will seem strange to you but I don't excuse P2P/B2P here simply because they are not F2P.
the problem with the argument you're trying to make is not all f2p games are the same. Most don't even have comparable cash shops. Lock boxes in many of these games can be opened without YOU having to buy a key with real money. So some games have these lock boxes that are pretty much just real gambling, and others have in game gambling.
The in game gambling is no different than any other RNG loot system. I'll agree with you that the real money only lock boxes are lame.
Originally posted by Scot Originally posted by DamonVileOriginally posted by Mtibbs1989Originally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by ScotBut my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?
The topic was about RNG.You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.They are different. If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread. Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.I choose to zero in on what I thought was the worse aspect of what the OP brought up, the gambling element of chest boxes. The rest of what he said is not a concern to me, in fact I agree with those of you that it has always been there. So I am hardly going to go on about that am I? If that's an off topic rant, you are just making it up as you go along.
The "gambling" element of lock boxes revolves around the money being paid for lock boxes, not the random nature of lock boxes. Most MMORPGs are full of things that are exactly like lock boxes, except they aren't purchased from the cash shop. For instance, raid bosses, dungeon bosses and many world mobs function exactly like lock boxes in their random loot drop.
The thing you are arguing against isn't the randomness, it's paying additional money for the randomness. The OP is talking about randomness in general.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by ScotGambling is the newish F2P disease.
Seriously? UO, SWG, EVE, EQ, AC... none of them had the stuff the OP is talking about - random loot, random drops or random change of failure at crafting? Is this revisionist history or just a really polarized view blanketing every aspect of MMOs for you?
My guess is revisionist history. Every mob in Lineage was a "loot box". The whole purpose of killing mobs in that game, especially since there were essentially no quests, was to open the mob loot box. Every mob contained the following:1. A static xp amount with a relative level modifier2. A random amount of cash within a range (e.g.: 10 - 20 gold)3. A random number of drops from a predefined loot table. For example, this "tough" bugbear mob would contain at least 3 drops of which one would be of at least high quality or better.That is how most every lockbox I see described works. The developers would calculate how much reward these lockboxes would add to the game world in a given period and how tough it was to open them (ie: defeat the mob). They could count on x number of months of sub revenue added to the game based on mob toughness, loot tables, and the xp leveling curve.So Scot was right until he revised history to further his anti-f2p agenda.I would say that even though the random loot carrot seems horrible it's what drives a lot of our mmo play. We like getting goodies and gambling for the chance to win big. If it was all predictable the games would be a lot more boring as well. Some element of chance and surprise keeps it interesting. It's all about balance.
I agree, but were you paying to open that "loot box" via a cash shop key in Lineage? Once again, this is about cash shops, I point the finger more at F2P as that financial model introduced them. This will seem strange to you but I don't excuse P2P/B2P here simply because they are not F2P.
the problem with the argument you're trying to make is not all f2p games are the same. Most don't even have comparable cash shops. Lock boxes in many of these games can be opened without YOU having to buy a key with real money. So some games have these lock boxes that are pretty much just real gambling, and others have in game gambling.The in game gambling is no different than any other RNG loot system. I'll agree with you that the real money only lock boxes are lame.
Indeed, this is not going to be the same in all MMOs. It may be that some of the P2P lock box gambling is some of the worst, I have not played that many MMOs to have a big enough sample to make that comparison. You bring up the defence they always use though "in many of these games (lock boxes) can be opened without you having to buy a key." That's the same excuse given when players complain about top level gear that can be bought in cash shops, 'you can always get it by grinding.' I find that whole side of cash shops appalling.
I see what Lizardbones is getting at, perhaps the monetary nature of lock boxes was not an issue for the OP. When it comes to the much wider issue of random number generation, I have no issue with it, so found it hard to see the post in those terms. Certainly paid for lock boxes are a bugbear for me, I would not deny it. I found it rather puzzling actually as I could not imagine what RNG could be replaced with. Already MMOs are being turned into a shopping mart, so unless the OP wants more of that?
I found it rather puzzling actually as I could not imagine what RNG could be replaced with.
Static numbers.
Most of the major random numbers in MMORPGs have been replaced with static numbers over time. The most common ones are:
- level up stat gain
- weapon and armor stats (dynamic loot replaced by loot tables)
- DPS instead of damage range/variance
- crafting success/failure, including chance of 'critical' or mastercrafted enhancement
- dynamic spawn systems
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I found it rather puzzling actually as I could not imagine what RNG could be replaced with.
Static numbers.
Most of the major random numbers in MMORPGs have been replaced with static numbers over time. The most common ones are:
- level up stat gain
- weapon and armor stats (dynamic loot replaced by loot tables)
- DPS instead of damage range/variance
- crafting success/failure, including chance of 'critical' or mastercrafted enhancement
- dynamic spawn systems
How do you use static numbers to generate a critical success? Now you mention it I had heard about the change to loot tables, it was often touted as a plus in prelaunch articles and I think that it is a better system. Dps just seemed a natural development to me, we used to work out the dps for ourselves, then MMOs changed to that system.
I don't think gambling came from the f2p models although it is prevalent in many. It's been a plague of p2p since it's conception (many f2p started p2p). What you have here is simply shit games vs well made games.
Originally posted by lizardbones I haven't read the OP, but I'm going to take a stab at it anyway, because, well, why not? Roll the dice and all that.
I'm not a fan of things being completely random in MMORPGs. There aren't that many things that are completely random though. I think drops from bosses and some mobs are really the only truly random things. Chance to hit, damage done and even most drops are something the player can have some control over by the choices they make. Getting better armor, getting more experience and choosing which mobs to kill all change what could be a completely random process into a process with a random element that's slowly skewed to be in the player's favor.
But the boss drops though. Those things are completely random. Even there, games like WoW have added tokens that players can save up to build armor sets without having to rely on the RNG.
I know existing MMORPG systems are pretty simple, and they have to be to serve many people. I think it would be a little better if there was some "role play" included and more of a "natural order" built into things. For instance, killing a wolf would never yield a helmet. However, killing a dragon might, but the helmet was in the dragon's digestive tract, and needs to be repaired because it was being slowly digested. The description of the item would present this idea. "Partially Digested Helmet", when repaired becomes "Helmet of Bugs" or something.
I guess I'll go read the OP now.
**
I've never played a game where enchanting or crafting could randomly fail. Not for very long anyway. Crafting type skills are the things where randomness should have the least amount of impact in terms of game play (imo). If it does play a factor, it should be a factor that the player can mitigate over time, so that crafting a helmet always results in crafting a helmet, and the helmet's quality relative to resources required always results in better and better results as the player puts more effort into the activity.
Crafting is one area I like random fails, adding in one's crafting skill for the result. I like your "sub-standard" item with a crafting fail, idea, though.
Randomness comes from tabletop gaming. With video games, you don't get the satisfaction of holding the dice in your hands.
Mob loot should not be random, in my opinion. All rats have tails, murlocks have eyes, wolves have pelts. A boss encounter should have the lore that that specific boss has possession of a specific item and must be defeated in order to obtain that item.
Personally, I'd like randomness back in combat. That depicts my character, not my twitch skills, doing the fighting. Give me skills like dodge, block, riposte, and such that my character can improve and use (randomly), not *my* right mouse button and *my* finger or *my* double taps.
In D&D, those painfully long first level fights that consisted of miss, miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, hit, etc. made the later fights of hit, hit, hit, miss, hit feel like your character had improved while playing/adventuring.
Some randomness I like and enjoy. Some places, it just does not "feel right" to me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.
I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
The fact that I am ridiculing your irrational attempts to demonize a payment model doesn't make me a fan of said payment model. Do you even read your replies before you post 'em?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I found it rather puzzling actually as I could not imagine what RNG could be replaced with.
Static numbers.
Most of the major random numbers in MMORPGs have been replaced with static numbers over time. The most common ones are:
- level up stat gain
- weapon and armor stats (dynamic loot replaced by loot tables)
- DPS instead of damage range/variance
- crafting success/failure, including chance of 'critical' or mastercrafted enhancement
- dynamic spawn systems
How do you use static numbers to generate a critical success? Now you mention it I had heard about the change to loot tables, it was often touted as a plus in prelaunch articles and I think that it is a better system. Dps just seemed a natural development to me, we used to work out the dps for ourselves, then MMOs changed to that system.
I don't doubt you may have done math before on damage for weapons, but display of that info was around even when weapons had variable damage, too. It's the damage range - or absence thereof - which is now static, not the display of it.
I don't think you understand the loot tables thing either but I'm off to play Eldevin, so I'll let someone else explain that to you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
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There are two different discussion points here. One is the idea of randomness in-game and the other is randomness in the cash shop. I don't really mind randomness in the game as it adds a bit of flavor and longevity to the game. I remember when SWTOR first came out and my entire raid force was geared out in a matter of a couple weeks. It really sucked the life out of the game having individual drops. The only way that would work is if they made progression much and I mean much deeper.
The other form of randomness in the cash shop I hate and tend to avoid games that do it. It's not that I have a issue with gambling per say but those boxes are little more than ways to charge in some cases $100 or more for a single item without having to put a price tag on it. Plus they have this way of consuming the best (subjective term for sure) content either stat or appearance wise in the game again because they can command such huge price tags on them and those guaranteed crafting success items that some games sell are just P2W in it's most base form.
What do you expect? Should the game ask you to watch 3 episodes of Breaking bad for level or maybe to have sex with nabors dougters sister or go buy coffe at the store.What do you expect mate?
My guess is you never played L2 when it was still sub. It was doing random before WOW came out =P Only one race/class could craft(the race could craft to a certain point then they had to choose to either gather or craft at higher lvls) and they were the most efficient gatherers as well. When you crafted something high lvl you had a large fail chance which was made lower by having more mats or a better recipe.
Same went for enchanting gear, a friend of mine had these amazing +22 dual katanas and there really wasn't a monetary value they were worth so much.. ppl rarely went beyond 5. He would get drunk or high and gamble his ass off and was lucky.. until he wasnt and they went poof. Most gear you just took to +3 and left.
What F2P has brought to it is being able to buy those advantages like the lower chance of fail.. but they in no way started it.
Obviously, probabilities of things like boss drops and chest contents are conventionally "purely" randomized, and these things can be frustrating whether as a sense of futility/wasted time or as an affront to logic. It is possible to avoid this through design elements. Crafter-driven games could focus instead on material drops, which could provide for both increased believability and for mechanical cohesiveness and usability. A rare material that can be used for creating multiple things is ostensibly useful to a wide range of different character types, for example. What lizardbones suggested about making drops relevant in a lore/rp sense makes a lot of sense to me.
At the end of the day, though, I like a bit of chaos
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Sure the OP mentioned all kinds of random gameplay, but I just talked about lockbox gambling. Where did I mention RNG in other gameplay? You are going on as if I said randomness was invented by the F2P finance model, just read what I posted. And why we are on that like I said its about Cash Shops which are in P2P/B2P MMOs. That means its across the financial models.
You made a fair point about P2P having time as gambling, in that we pay for time so anything that is random is a gamble. I don't see it that way, raiding does not involve gambling until you make people pay for the chance of a good item. Flat fees for all gameplay do not do that.
So think of this as a F2P nerd rant if you want, regardless of what I actually post. I do not hide where I stand this is "as usual" for me. I don't think I need that in a signature box mind you and nor do you.
But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?
That's my reply to Vengesunsoar and Lokifeit as well to save a massive wall of text.
Is the randomness in a game (p2p) all that different from randomness in the cash shop (f2p)? A player pays a sub for a game, and has a random chance of getting X drops. A play plays a game for free, but pays money for a random chance of getting X drops. The difference is when the player is paying to play the game, and how much they can affect the drop rate with what they are paying. In both cases the player is paying money to the developer to get drops based on the developer determined drop rate that is relative to the amount of money a player is paying.
I do not like the idea of crafting having a chance to be successful, unless the player can affect that chance and slide it to a guarantee of success. Ditto for enchanting, but in my mind, enchanting is just a form of crafting.
Drop rates of items are something else entirely. Random drops are something that's been around for a long time. My preference would be for the drops to be something from the thing dropping it though. Helmets should not drop from wolves or rats unless they are big enough to have eaten something that wears a helmet. The helmet should need some repair as well, since it's been digesting for awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The topic was about RNG.
You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.
They are different.
If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.
I choose to zero in on what I thought was the worse aspect of what the OP brought up, the gambling element of chest boxes. The rest of what he said is not a concern to me, in fact I agree with those of you that it has always been there. So I am hardly going to go on about that am I? If that's an off topic rant, you are just making it up as you go along.
I agree, but were you paying to open that "loot box" via a cash shop key in Lineage? Once again, this is about cash shops, I point the finger more at F2P as that financial model introduced them. This will seem strange to you but I don't excuse P2P/B2P here simply because they are not F2P.
IDK maybe they could go with 100% drop rate
but,,,,,
the encounter is so dificult that the chance to actualy win it is 1 out of 50 attempts
yea that might work right?
Other wise we will be working on new content and bosses at every single sitting and that removes that "familaririty" that most players know and love. I mean yea exploration is great but with out familarity exploration loses its charm right>?
Wut?
The RNG drives many things in games, not just lock boxes. The RNG is just one tool among many that the developer uses to make things happen in a game. It's how the RNG is used that determines whether it's cool or not.
**
If it's the RNG that's the demon here, it doesn't matter if the RNG is being used to determine boss loot or lock box loot. It doesn't matter if the RNG is being used in a P2P game or a F2P game. The RNG is the demon in either case.
Saying that lock boxes in F2P games are bad does nothing to describe why RNGs generating loot are bad. It doesn't even explain why the loot in lock boxes being random is bad.
A much better job needs to be done talking about the RNG aspects of F2P/Lock Boxes if you're going to effectively work them into the conversation. Otherwise you just sound like a loony who played a F2P game and didn't "win".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
the problem with the argument you're trying to make is not all f2p games are the same. Most don't even have comparable cash shops. Lock boxes in many of these games can be opened without YOU having to buy a key with real money. So some games have these lock boxes that are pretty much just real gambling, and others have in game gambling.
The in game gambling is no different than any other RNG loot system. I'll agree with you that the real money only lock boxes are lame.
Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.
He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.
I choose to zero in on what I thought was the worse aspect of what the OP brought up, the gambling element of chest boxes. The rest of what he said is not a concern to me, in fact I agree with those of you that it has always been there. So I am hardly going to go on about that am I? If that's an off topic rant, you are just making it up as you go along.
The "gambling" element of lock boxes revolves around the money being paid for lock boxes, not the random nature of lock boxes. Most MMORPGs are full of things that are exactly like lock boxes, except they aren't purchased from the cash shop. For instance, raid bosses, dungeon bosses and many world mobs function exactly like lock boxes in their random loot drop.
The thing you are arguing against isn't the randomness, it's paying additional money for the randomness. The OP is talking about randomness in general.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Indeed, this is not going to be the same in all MMOs. It may be that some of the P2P lock box gambling is some of the worst, I have not played that many MMOs to have a big enough sample to make that comparison. You bring up the defence they always use though "in many of these games (lock boxes) can be opened without you having to buy a key." That's the same excuse given when players complain about top level gear that can be bought in cash shops, 'you can always get it by grinding.' I find that whole side of cash shops appalling.I see what Lizardbones is getting at, perhaps the monetary nature of lock boxes was not an issue for the OP. When it comes to the much wider issue of random number generation, I have no issue with it, so found it hard to see the post in those terms. Certainly paid for lock boxes are a bugbear for me, I would not deny it. I found it rather puzzling actually as I could not imagine what RNG could be replaced with. Already MMOs are being turned into a shopping mart, so unless the OP wants more of that?
Static numbers.
Most of the major random numbers in MMORPGs have been replaced with static numbers over time. The most common ones are:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How do you use static numbers to generate a critical success? Now you mention it I had heard about the change to loot tables, it was often touted as a plus in prelaunch articles and I think that it is a better system. Dps just seemed a natural development to me, we used to work out the dps for ourselves, then MMOs changed to that system.
Randomness comes from tabletop gaming. With video games, you don't get the satisfaction of holding the dice in your hands.
Mob loot should not be random, in my opinion. All rats have tails, murlocks have eyes, wolves have pelts. A boss encounter should have the lore that that specific boss has possession of a specific item and must be defeated in order to obtain that item.
Personally, I'd like randomness back in combat. That depicts my character, not my twitch skills, doing the fighting. Give me skills like dodge, block, riposte, and such that my character can improve and use (randomly), not *my* right mouse button and *my* finger or *my* double taps.
In D&D, those painfully long first level fights that consisted of miss, miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, hit, etc. made the later fights of hit, hit, hit, miss, hit feel like your character had improved while playing/adventuring.
Some randomness I like and enjoy. Some places, it just does not "feel right" to me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The fact that I am ridiculing your irrational attempts to demonize a payment model doesn't make me a fan of said payment model. Do you even read your replies before you post 'em?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think there should be more common sense loot but I think randomness is not a bad thing.
Randomness in crafting is not bad. Randomness in attacks are not bad. I like random varibles in loot instead of all items being created equal.
Things that I think should be obvious is that if a character is wearing an item you should at least get ruin pieces of that armor dropping.
I don't doubt you may have done math before on damage for weapons, but display of that info was around even when weapons had variable damage, too. It's the damage range - or absence thereof - which is now static, not the display of it.
I don't think you understand the loot tables thing either but I'm off to play Eldevin, so I'll let someone else explain that to you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre