Well the tokens as raid loot has been tried, it was the way Lotro went and I am sure their not the only one to go that way. I don't think they embraced that system in all raid loot areas mind you. So yes that is fairer than the random drop, but like the lizardbones said, it is not as exciting.
Lets move out of end game, cash shop gambling occurs from day one with lock boxes, how do you equate that with time as money? This is milking players for every cent, not some grand upstanding policy to show players where their money is going.
I don't follow you. Lock boxes are not the primary method of advancement in any F2P game (actually, I don't think they are a major part of any game). I can't remember any F2P game where buying lockboxes was mandatory. Usually the cash shop sells equipment or it doesn't. And even you got a major part of your equipment from lockboxes, they are no different from a standard loot drop.
Both have an expected return.
Indeed I am not suggesting they are the major development path in a MMO, its just about making more money. But now you mention I think that's may well be the way they will go. I was pondering in another thread what the next cash shop scam would be, that could well be it. Just increase the importance of what you can get in lock boxes.
I would like to post a link to Massively, it is not just posters who think lock box gambling is appalling. Some gaming journalist and commentators have also spoken out:
I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.
Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.
To me this really is a non-issue.
edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Indeed I am not suggesting they are the major development path in a MMO, its just about making more money. But now you mention I think that's may well be the way they will go. I was pondering in another thread what the next cash shop scam would be, that could well be it. Just increase the importance of what you can get in lock boxes.
I would like to post a link to Massively, it is not just posters who think lock box gambling is appalling. Some gaming journalist and commentators have also spoken out:
If lock boxes are bad for F2P games, why isn't random loot bad for P2P games? Do I sense a double standard? And lock boxes are not a scam. People know what they are buying and the chances of winning are usually public.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Warlords of Draenor is changing the way loot works in WoW pretty significantly.
As I understand it, not only will more loot be usable and viable between your different specs, but they are greatly increasing the loot drop rates - but adding more "random" elements to the gear.
So you'll be able to fill out your slots much faster, but the secondary stats on gear will be more varied, some will have tertiary stats and slots while some won't, and while the primary stats will help the secondaries will be sub-optimal.
So it'll still take time and a bit of luck to get the really "good" drops for the min/maxers, but you'll be able to replace/fill out from the previous tier much faster than currently, or "gear up" to an acceptable level for the content much faster.
We'll see how it works out.
It's still random and gamble in a sense, but instead of making it all or nothing, 0% or 100%, you have a very high chance of getting something, chances are it'll be useful, but the chance is low it'll be perfect.
Originally posted by Scot Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by QuirhidOriginally posted by ScotOriginally posted by Loktofeit
It was Quirhad who said that, but no matter. For me, if you can make a F2P MMO that has a fair cash shop, like Turbine's was in the old days or PoE seems to be now, how can P2W and gambling be justified? Why do only some cash shop MMO's need to use revenue systems which go against gaming ethos while others do not?Clearly devs are trying to extend the time factor in raids, but is that the same as gambling? I would say it was first and foremost to extend end game. If MMO end game was a quest which ended in GAME OVER, I think players would have something to say about that rather quickly. To use your logic in a P2P MMO, if they sent random housing decorations to players every month which cost nothing, would you also equate that to cash shop gambling? Simply having something in end game which involves randomness does not make it as bad as cash shop gambling.But it is. One gambles with his money while the other gambles with his time (and by extension, his money). Essentially they are the same thing and the end result is the same: Players spending more money. Like Loktofeit said, atleast the F2P games are more honest about it. If a P2P game wanted to be more honest in this context it would have to abandon random loot and reward the players with fixed amount of tokens instead. The players could then use the tokens at an NPC vendor for gear. With such a system you can anticipate how many times you have to complete the dungeon in order to get "a full set", for example. Would having just tokens make the repetitive nature of dungeons and raids too boring? There is excitement in the loot drop, and it's that excitement that at least in part drives players to participate. Something else to note is that it seems that both the leveling portion and the end game portion of theme park games has shortened over time. Leveling in general has gone from many months to a few months, even for slow players like me. End game raiding has gone from a perpetual activity to something completed in a couple of months at most. The same amount of content is generating less revenue than it used to. It is still a gamble, but it's a less expensive gamble than it used to be. ** Something else to note. With cash shop items, it is only the "loot boxes" that are like gambling. The player pays their money and they get their 1 chance. The difference between this and dungeons or raids is that the player can run the dungeon or raid many times making the payout a guarantee, not a possibility. That is, unless there are lock outs. If there are lockouts, the player's chance to win is has a ceiling just like with loot boxes. It's a potentially higher ceiling, but it's a ceiling none the less. Well the tokens as raid loot has been tried, it was the way Lotro went and I am sure their not the only one to go that way. I don't think they embraced that system in all raid loot areas mind you. So yes that is fairer than the random drop, but like the lizardbones said, it is not as exciting.
Lets move out of end game, cash shop gambling occurs from day one with lock boxes, how do you equate that with time as money? This is milking players for every cent, not some grand upstanding policy to show players where their money is going.
I do agree that lock boxes are not some upstanding policy to show the players where their money is going. It is honest, but the honesty is a side effect, not a cause. That said, subscriptions aren't an upstanding policy either. Every method used to get money from players is a method to get the most money possible from players.
Keep in mind that it's not really possible for any of these systems, whether we're talking about F2P games, subscription games or some abomination of a combination of the two to not be fair. Every player who plays a game has the same opportunity presented to them. That the players can't all take advantage of the opportunity in the same way isn't unfair. It may be unjust or unreasonable if such words can even be applied to a game, but it's not unfair.
**
Time is money only if there is an alternative activity possible that generates money. For someone who can either play a game or go to work, the time spent playing the game is money. For someone who's alternative activity is watching a movie or television, time is not money. I think what people are really saying when they say, "Time Is Money" is that Time, like Money is a valuable resource and shouldn't be wasted if the player can help it. If a player can spend money to not waste time and they feel that it's worth the money spent, then it's a rational decision to spend the money. I think the issue is when the developer creates an environment where the only rational decision is to spend money to not waste time when the goal of the player is to find enjoyable game play. This has nothing to do with the RNG, lockboxes or even gambling, and everything to do with the developer's goals and intentions when making their game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by BadSpock Warlords of Draenor is changing the way loot works in WoW pretty significantly.As I understand it, not only will more loot be usable and viable between your different specs, but they are greatly increasing the loot drop rates - but adding more "random" elements to the gear.So you'll be able to fill out your slots much faster, but the secondary stats on gear will be more varied, some will have tertiary stats and slots while some won't, and while the primary stats will help the secondaries will be sub-optimal.So it'll still take time and a bit of luck to get the really "good" drops for the min/maxers, but you'll be able to replace/fill out from the previous tier much faster than currently, or "gear up" to an acceptable level for the content much faster.We'll see how it works out.It's still random and gamble in a sense, but instead of making it all or nothing, 0% or 100%, you have a very high chance of getting something, chances are it'll be useful, but the chance is low it'll be perfect.
Huh. So more like Diablo. Interesting. I have a friend who will be unable to stop playing if this is true.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.To me this really is a non-issue.edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.
Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.
To me this really is a non-issue.
edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.
Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.
To me this really is a non-issue.
edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Based on the title I thought it was about that cash item that gives you random stuff and has a chance to give you good stuff at a very very low chance.
I got no problem with what was said in the OP. I believe that's just part of playing an MMO. Though it can be quite frustrating when badluck looms upon you for an entire playtime of yours. I know that feeling...though the degree of bad luck is the one that surprises me. I've played several RPGs on a console and I've been told by my friends that the chances are way lower in MMO's. I did not believe them until I experienced it first hand.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.
Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.
To me this really is a non-issue.
edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.
I can't believe a poster on here has not seen how cash shop goal posts move. You must have all seen how P2W slowly crept in, it was not done in a big announcement "We Are Going P2W!". Slowly over a year or two P2W items creep into a cash shop. In Lotro none when they went "hybrid", within 18 months you had parts for legendary weapons and stat tomes for sale.
That's how this is done, stealthily. Likewise companies are always looking for a new source of income. Think about it, if you are just P2P how do you get more cash out of players? Sell T-shirts? P2P limits the way you can get revenue. A cash shop opens the door to all sorts of revenue streams. Some of you have talked about how lock boxes are not in that many MMOs. Well cash shops were not in that many MMOs, then P2W gear was not in that many MMOs...see the pattern?
So right now they are looking for new revenue streams, unless you think they are just sit in board rooms patting themselves on the back about P2W items and lock box gambling? That's why I see lockboxes moving to more gameplay important loot as we go on. If its not that they will come up with something else, something which may or may not be against gaming ethos, maybe they will just find a way to sell more cosmetics.
But the bottom line is they don't care if their next microtransaction innovation goes against gaming ethos, MMO history has shown they can get away with it. So why stop here?
What's happened to Nari anyway? Not seen him post some of his nonsense in quite a while.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.
Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.
To me this really is a non-issue.
edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.
I can't believe a poster on here has not seen how cash shop goal posts move. You must have all seen how P2W slowly crept in, it was not done in a big announcement "We Are Going P2W!". Slowly over a year or two P2W items creep into a cash shop. In Lotro none when they went "hybrid", within 18 months you had parts for legendary weapons and stat tomes for sale.
That's how this is done, stealthily. Likewise companies are always looking for a new source of income. Think about it, if you are just P2P how do you get more cash out of players? Sell T-shirts? P2P limits the way you can get revenue. A cash shop opens the door to all sorts of revenue streams. Some of you have talked about how lock boxes are not in that many MMOs. Well cash shops were not in that many MMOs, then P2W gear was not in that many MMOs...see the pattern?
So right now they are looking for new revenue streams, unless you think they are just sit in board rooms patting themselves on the back about P2W items and lock box gambling? That's why I see lockboxes moving to more gameplay important loot as we go on. If its not that they will come up with something else, something which may or may not be against gaming ethos, maybe they will just find a way to sell more cosmetics.
But the bottom line is they don't care if their next microtransaction innovation goes against gaming ethos, MMO history has shown they can get away with it. So why stop here?
What's happened to Nari anyway? Not seen him post some of his nonsense in quite a while.
P2W has not been creeping in, nor are lock boxes any more of a scam than a scratch ticket is. Lock boxes aren't even a major part of any F2P game out there.
It would sure help if nari was here to curb crazy theories such as these.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Scot Originally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by TorikOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarI have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.To me this really is a non-issue.edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff. Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.I can't believe a poster on here has not seen how cash shop goal posts move. You must have all seen how P2W slowly crept in, it was not done in a big announcement "We Are Going P2W!". Slowly over a year or two P2W items creep into a cash shop. In Lotro none when they went "hybrid", within 18 months you had parts for legendary weapons and stat tomes for sale.
That's how this is done, stealthily. Likewise companies are always looking for a new source of income. Think about it, if you are just P2P how do you get more cash out of players? Sell T-shirts? P2P limits the way you can get revenue. A cash shop opens the door to all sorts of revenue streams. Some of you have talked about how lock boxes are not in that many MMOs. Well cash shops were not in that many MMOs, then P2W gear was not in that many MMOs...see the pattern?
So right now they are looking for new revenue streams, unless you think they are just sit in board rooms patting themselves on the back about P2W items and lock box gambling? That's why I see lockboxes moving to more gameplay important loot as we go on. If its not that they will come up with something else, something which may or may not be against gaming ethos, maybe they will just find a way to sell more cosmetics.
But the bottom line is they don't care if their next microtransaction innovation goes against gaming ethos, MMO history has shown they can get away with it. So why stop here?
What's happened to Nari anyway? Not seen him post some of his nonsense in quite a while.
Unless people must pay to progress in a F2P game, it's not P2W. If people play LoTRO without paying any money, and they are getting parts for legendaries or stat tomes, it's not P2W. LoTRO doesn't sound like gambling either.
The "Slippery Slope" as an argument is a bad one because everything is a slippery slope and because it depends on fear of what might come next. That's the great thing about a market economy and the video game industry in particular. At some point the players just stop paying for stuff, and that is the point past which developers cannot go. If LoTRO becomes a P2W game, people will just stop playing. Ditto for STO.
The thread isn't about P2W at all, because P2W isn't random. P2W is a guarantee of some sort of "win" over people who do not pay when the player pays money.
Naris posted about a sabbatical or something awhile back where they would be unable to post for awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarI have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.To me this really is a non-issue.edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.
I can't believe a poster on here has not seen how cash shop goal posts move. You must have all seen how P2W slowly crept in, it was not done in a big announcement "We Are Going P2W!". Slowly over a year or two P2W items creep into a cash shop. In Lotro none when they went "hybrid", within 18 months you had parts for legendary weapons and stat tomes for sale.
That's how this is done, stealthily. Likewise companies are always looking for a new source of income. Think about it, if you are just P2P how do you get more cash out of players? Sell T-shirts? P2P limits the way you can get revenue. A cash shop opens the door to all sorts of revenue streams. Some of you have talked about how lock boxes are not in that many MMOs. Well cash shops were not in that many MMOs, then P2W gear was not in that many MMOs...see the pattern?
So right now they are looking for new revenue streams, unless you think they are just sit in board rooms patting themselves on the back about P2W items and lock box gambling? That's why I see lockboxes moving to more gameplay important loot as we go on. If its not that they will come up with something else, something which may or may not be against gaming ethos, maybe they will just find a way to sell more cosmetics.
But the bottom line is they don't care if their next microtransaction innovation goes against gaming ethos, MMO history has shown they can get away with it. So why stop here?
What's happened to Nari anyway? Not seen him post some of his nonsense in quite a while.
Unless people must pay to progress in a F2P game, it's not P2W. If people play LoTRO without paying any money, and they are getting parts for legendaries or stat tomes, it's not P2W. LoTRO doesn't sound like gambling either.
The "Slippery Slope" as an argument is a bad one because everything is a slippery slope and because it depends on fear of what might come next. That's the great thing about a market economy and the video game industry in particular. At some point the players just stop paying for stuff, and that is the point past which developers cannot go. If LoTRO becomes a P2W game, people will just stop playing. Ditto for STO.
The thread isn't about P2W at all, because P2W isn't random. P2W is a guarantee of some sort of "win" over people who do not pay when the player pays money.
Naris posted about a sabbatical or something awhile back where they would be unable to post for awhile.
If you start of with no P2W items then put a few in, then more, what is that other than the stealthy introduction of P2W? By P2W I mean items which are top level, items which aid you in reaching top level and most importantly those that help you win in PvP. The changes in Lotro do all that by the way, but no gambling there as yet. As being top level aids you in PvP anything that gets you there faster is P2W. I think our definitions are not the same, granted I have gone of track with the random element the Op was talking about.
I am not making a slippery slope argument, I am simply looking at what the cash shop as brought us so far and making the simple extrapolation that it will bring us more of the same.
Maybe Nari realised this was a site for MMO players or something? Winding up aside, I wish him the best whatever he is up to.
Originally posted by Scot edited for brevity If you start of with no P2W items then put a few in, then more, what is that other than the stealthy introduction of P2W? By P2W I mean items which are top level, items which aid you in reaching top level and most importantly those that help you win in PvP. The changes in Lotro do all that by the way, but no gambling there as yet. As being top level aids you in PvP anything that gets you there faster is P2W. I think our definitions are not the same, granted I have gone of track with the random element the Op was talking about.I am not making a slippery slope argument, I am simply looking at what the cash shop as brought us so far and making the simple extrapolation that it will bring us more of the same.Maybe Nari realised this was a site for MMO players or something? Winding up aside, I wish him the best whatever he is up to.
The items have to actually be P2W items. Can the items be obtained in the game, without paying money? If there is no payment, it can't be pay to win. Can the person who doesn't pay achieve what the person who does pay achieves? If so, then the person who pays is paying for something, but it's not winning. Winning implies that there is a loser, and if the non paying player gets the same thing, they haven't lost. They've obtained the same thing using a different currency; time instead of money.
Can't really comment on Nari, I just read their post some time ago about not being able to post for awhile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
I'm using a definition of Pay To Win that doesn't depend on an appeal to myself as the authority.
The point is that acquiring items with money circumvents the mechanism by which things SHOULD BE acquired: by playing the game and experiencing the content. Anything else cheapens the experience for everyone (whether they care or not).
The point is that acquiring items with money circumvents the mechanism by which things SHOULD BE acquired: by playing the game and experiencing the content. Anything else cheapens the experience for everyone (whether they care or not).
Should be is only synonymous with "what you want it to be".
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The point is that acquiring items with money circumvents the mechanism by which things SHOULD BE acquired: by playing the game and experiencing the content. Anything else cheapens the experience for everyone (whether they care or not).
Should be is only synonymous with "what you want it to be".
What everyone should want: a game where you earn things by playing the actual game! It perplexes and vexes me that people (who aren't using it to make money) actually defend the cash-shop idea.
Originally posted by BadSpock Warlords of Draenor is changing the way loot works in WoW pretty significantly.
As I understand it, not only will more loot be usable and viable between your different specs, but they are greatly increasing the loot drop rates - but adding more "random" elements to the gear.
So you'll be able to fill out your slots much faster, but the secondary stats on gear will be more varied, some will have tertiary stats and slots while some won't, and while the primary stats will help the secondaries will be sub-optimal.
So it'll still take time and a bit of luck to get the really "good" drops for the min/maxers, but you'll be able to replace/fill out from the previous tier much faster than currently, or "gear up" to an acceptable level for the content much faster.
We'll see how it works out.
It's still random and gamble in a sense, but instead of making it all or nothing, 0% or 100%, you have a very high chance of getting something, chances are it'll be useful, but the chance is low it'll be perfect.
Huh. So more like Diablo. Interesting. I have a friend who will be unable to stop playing if this is true.
P2W has not been creeping in, nor are lock boxes any more of a scam than a scratch ticket is. Lock boxes aren't even a major part of any F2P game out there.
Lockboxes and pay to win aren't even what the topic is about, but that won't stop them from their usual threadjacking to create another podium to warn others about the evils of pay to win.
It seems like there was this point about two years or so ago when the ThouMustGroup Cultist and their glorious leader Ihmotepp mysteriously disappeared, and the void was filled by P2W doomheralds.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Scot edited for brevity If you start of with no P2W items then put a few in, then more, what is that other than the stealthy introduction of P2W? By P2W I mean items which are top level, items which aid you in reaching top level and most importantly those that help you win in PvP. The changes in Lotro do all that by the way, but no gambling there as yet. As being top level aids you in PvP anything that gets you there faster is P2W. I think our definitions are not the same, granted I have gone of track with the random element the Op was talking about.
I am not making a slippery slope argument, I am simply looking at what the cash shop as brought us so far and making the simple extrapolation that it will bring us more of the same.
Maybe Nari realised this was a site for MMO players or something? Winding up aside, I wish him the best whatever he is up to.
The items have to actually be P2W items. Can the items be obtained in the game, without paying money? If there is no payment, it can't be pay to win. Can the person who doesn't pay achieve what the person who does pay achieves? If so, then the person who pays is paying for something, but it's not winning. Winning implies that there is a loser, and if the non paying player gets the same thing, they haven't lost. They've obtained the same thing using a different currency; time instead of money.
Can't really comment on Nari, I just read their post some time ago about not being able to post for awhile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
I'm using a definition of Pay To Win that doesn't depend on an appeal to myself as the authority.
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
That says nothing about it not being P2W if you can also grind for the gear in game Lizardbones, I think the definition you linked to suits my own far better than yours.
P2W has not been creeping in, nor are lock boxes any more of a scam than a scratch ticket is. Lock boxes aren't even a major part of any F2P game out there.
Lockboxes and pay to win aren't even what the topic is about, but that won't stop them from their usual threadjacking to create another podium to warn others about the evils of pay to win.
It seems like there was this point about two years or so ago when the ThouMustGroup Cultist and their glorious leader Ihmotepp mysteriously disappeared, and the void was filled by P2W doomheralds.
Granted I may well have taken the thread of topic. Do you think that concerns about grouping were misfounded? When we have the industry itself wondering where the community has gone, trying to get more grouping started with dynamic join as you turn up events and "solo" games all coming with group PvP?
It was never a case of MMOs not being able to exist without grouping. Nor is it a case that MMOs will now fail they have become P2W and gambling will spread to every last one of them. It was always about what sort of MMO do you want?
Comments
Indeed I am not suggesting they are the major development path in a MMO, its just about making more money. But now you mention I think that's may well be the way they will go. I was pondering in another thread what the next cash shop scam would be, that could well be it. Just increase the importance of what you can get in lock boxes.
I would like to post a link to Massively, it is not just posters who think lock box gambling is appalling. Some gaming journalist and commentators have also spoken out:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/17/the-perfect-ten-the-truth-about-lockboxes/
I have to wonder just how prevelant these lock boxes are. I'm currently playing swtor. I've never seen a lock box. I don't recall seeing a lockbox in any any MMO i've played.
Actually the only box I've seen locked that I couldn't open was in WoW and I wasn't a rogue.
To me this really is a non-issue.
edit- I guess that isn't true. I have seen a lockbox in the cs. I've just never come across them while actually in the game world making this issue even smaller imo because I still get everything in the world and I have the option for another item.
If lock boxes are bad for F2P games, why isn't random loot bad for P2P games? Do I sense a double standard? And lock boxes are not a scam. People know what they are buying and the chances of winning are usually public.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Warlords of Draenor is changing the way loot works in WoW pretty significantly.
As I understand it, not only will more loot be usable and viable between your different specs, but they are greatly increasing the loot drop rates - but adding more "random" elements to the gear.
So you'll be able to fill out your slots much faster, but the secondary stats on gear will be more varied, some will have tertiary stats and slots while some won't, and while the primary stats will help the secondaries will be sub-optimal.
So it'll still take time and a bit of luck to get the really "good" drops for the min/maxers, but you'll be able to replace/fill out from the previous tier much faster than currently, or "gear up" to an acceptable level for the content much faster.
We'll see how it works out.
It's still random and gamble in a sense, but instead of making it all or nothing, 0% or 100%, you have a very high chance of getting something, chances are it'll be useful, but the chance is low it'll be perfect.
But it is. One gambles with his money while the other gambles with his time (and by extension, his money). Essentially they are the same thing and the end result is the same: Players spending more money. Like Loktofeit said, atleast the F2P games are more honest about it. If a P2P game wanted to be more honest in this context it would have to abandon random loot and reward the players with fixed amount of tokens instead. The players could then use the tokens at an NPC vendor for gear. With such a system you can anticipate how many times you have to complete the dungeon in order to get "a full set", for example.
Would having just tokens make the repetitive nature of dungeons and raids too boring? There is excitement in the loot drop, and it's that excitement that at least in part drives players to participate. Something else to note is that it seems that both the leveling portion and the end game portion of theme park games has shortened over time. Leveling in general has gone from many months to a few months, even for slow players like me. End game raiding has gone from a perpetual activity to something completed in a couple of months at most. The same amount of content is generating less revenue than it used to. It is still a gamble, but it's a less expensive gamble than it used to be. ** Something else to note. With cash shop items, it is only the "loot boxes" that are like gambling. The player pays their money and they get their 1 chance. The difference between this and dungeons or raids is that the player can run the dungeon or raid many times making the payout a guarantee, not a possibility. That is, unless there are lock outs. If there are lockouts, the player's chance to win is has a ceiling just like with loot boxes. It's a potentially higher ceiling, but it's a ceiling none the less.
Well the tokens as raid loot has been tried, it was the way Lotro went and I am sure their not the only one to go that way. I don't think they embraced that system in all raid loot areas mind you. So yes that is fairer than the random drop, but like the lizardbones said, it is not as exciting.
Lets move out of end game, cash shop gambling occurs from day one with lock boxes, how do you equate that with time as money? This is milking players for every cent, not some grand upstanding policy to show players where their money is going.
I do agree that lock boxes are not some upstanding policy to show the players where their money is going. It is honest, but the honesty is a side effect, not a cause. That said, subscriptions aren't an upstanding policy either. Every method used to get money from players is a method to get the most money possible from players.
Keep in mind that it's not really possible for any of these systems, whether we're talking about F2P games, subscription games or some abomination of a combination of the two to not be fair. Every player who plays a game has the same opportunity presented to them. That the players can't all take advantage of the opportunity in the same way isn't unfair. It may be unjust or unreasonable if such words can even be applied to a game, but it's not unfair.
**
Time is money only if there is an alternative activity possible that generates money. For someone who can either play a game or go to work, the time spent playing the game is money. For someone who's alternative activity is watching a movie or television, time is not money. I think what people are really saying when they say, "Time Is Money" is that Time, like Money is a valuable resource and shouldn't be wasted if the player can help it. If a player can spend money to not waste time and they feel that it's worth the money spent, then it's a rational decision to spend the money. I think the issue is when the developer creates an environment where the only rational decision is to spend money to not waste time when the goal of the player is to find enjoyable game play. This has nothing to do with the RNG, lockboxes or even gambling, and everything to do with the developer's goals and intentions when making their game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Huh. So more like Diablo. Interesting. I have a friend who will be unable to stop playing if this is true.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In STO players come across locked boxes while playing. They also come across keys, but there are more locked boxes than keys. Narisseldon has been playing STO for something like a year and as far as I know, not spent any money on the locked boxes, so it doesn't seem like they are necessary for progression. It's the kind of thing that would vary from game to game. I would bet it's never as bad as it's presented on these forums, and probably never as benign as it's presented either. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.
Based on the title I thought it was about that cash item that gives you random stuff and has a chance to give you good stuff at a very very low chance.
I got no problem with what was said in the OP. I believe that's just part of playing an MMO. Though it can be quite frustrating when badluck looms upon you for an entire playtime of yours. I know that feeling...though the degree of bad luck is the one that surprises me. I've played several RPGs on a console and I've been told by my friends that the chances are way lower in MMO's. I did not believe them until I experienced it first hand.
I can't believe a poster on here has not seen how cash shop goal posts move. You must have all seen how P2W slowly crept in, it was not done in a big announcement "We Are Going P2W!". Slowly over a year or two P2W items creep into a cash shop. In Lotro none when they went "hybrid", within 18 months you had parts for legendary weapons and stat tomes for sale.
That's how this is done, stealthily. Likewise companies are always looking for a new source of income. Think about it, if you are just P2P how do you get more cash out of players? Sell T-shirts? P2P limits the way you can get revenue. A cash shop opens the door to all sorts of revenue streams. Some of you have talked about how lock boxes are not in that many MMOs. Well cash shops were not in that many MMOs, then P2W gear was not in that many MMOs...see the pattern?
So right now they are looking for new revenue streams, unless you think they are just sit in board rooms patting themselves on the back about P2W items and lock box gambling? That's why I see lockboxes moving to more gameplay important loot as we go on. If its not that they will come up with something else, something which may or may not be against gaming ethos, maybe they will just find a way to sell more cosmetics.
But the bottom line is they don't care if their next microtransaction innovation goes against gaming ethos, MMO history has shown they can get away with it. So why stop here?
What's happened to Nari anyway? Not seen him post some of his nonsense in quite a while.
P2W has not been creeping in, nor are lock boxes any more of a scam than a scratch ticket is. Lock boxes aren't even a major part of any F2P game out there.
It would sure help if nari was here to curb crazy theories such as these.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Lockboxes are extremely prelevant in STO. When I played the game I would regularly trash stacks of them that I auto looted. However, there never seemed to be any reason to buy a key to open one. STO has a significant cash shop but it does not offer significant upgrades over in-game stuff.
Ah. I haven't played STO, didn't look very interesting to me.
I can't believe a poster on here has not seen how cash shop goal posts move. You must have all seen how P2W slowly crept in, it was not done in a big announcement "We Are Going P2W!". Slowly over a year or two P2W items creep into a cash shop. In Lotro none when they went "hybrid", within 18 months you had parts for legendary weapons and stat tomes for sale.
That's how this is done, stealthily. Likewise companies are always looking for a new source of income. Think about it, if you are just P2P how do you get more cash out of players? Sell T-shirts? P2P limits the way you can get revenue. A cash shop opens the door to all sorts of revenue streams. Some of you have talked about how lock boxes are not in that many MMOs. Well cash shops were not in that many MMOs, then P2W gear was not in that many MMOs...see the pattern?
So right now they are looking for new revenue streams, unless you think they are just sit in board rooms patting themselves on the back about P2W items and lock box gambling? That's why I see lockboxes moving to more gameplay important loot as we go on. If its not that they will come up with something else, something which may or may not be against gaming ethos, maybe they will just find a way to sell more cosmetics.
But the bottom line is they don't care if their next microtransaction innovation goes against gaming ethos, MMO history has shown they can get away with it. So why stop here?
What's happened to Nari anyway? Not seen him post some of his nonsense in quite a while.
Unless people must pay to progress in a F2P game, it's not P2W. If people play LoTRO without paying any money, and they are getting parts for legendaries or stat tomes, it's not P2W. LoTRO doesn't sound like gambling either.
The "Slippery Slope" as an argument is a bad one because everything is a slippery slope and because it depends on fear of what might come next. That's the great thing about a market economy and the video game industry in particular. At some point the players just stop paying for stuff, and that is the point past which developers cannot go. If LoTRO becomes a P2W game, people will just stop playing. Ditto for STO.
The thread isn't about P2W at all, because P2W isn't random. P2W is a guarantee of some sort of "win" over people who do not pay when the player pays money.
Naris posted about a sabbatical or something awhile back where they would be unable to post for awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you start of with no P2W items then put a few in, then more, what is that other than the stealthy introduction of P2W? By P2W I mean items which are top level, items which aid you in reaching top level and most importantly those that help you win in PvP. The changes in Lotro do all that by the way, but no gambling there as yet. As being top level aids you in PvP anything that gets you there faster is P2W. I think our definitions are not the same, granted I have gone of track with the random element the Op was talking about.
I am not making a slippery slope argument, I am simply looking at what the cash shop as brought us so far and making the simple extrapolation that it will bring us more of the same.
Maybe Nari realised this was a site for MMO players or something? Winding up aside, I wish him the best whatever he is up to.
The items have to actually be P2W items. Can the items be obtained in the game, without paying money? If there is no payment, it can't be pay to win. Can the person who doesn't pay achieve what the person who does pay achieves? If so, then the person who pays is paying for something, but it's not winning. Winning implies that there is a loser, and if the non paying player gets the same thing, they haven't lost. They've obtained the same thing using a different currency; time instead of money.
Can't really comment on Nari, I just read their post some time ago about not being able to post for awhile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
I'm using a definition of Pay To Win that doesn't depend on an appeal to myself as the authority.
Wikipedia Free To Play - 1st Google Result For Pay To Win
Urban Dictionary - Pay To Win - 2nd Google Result
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The point is that acquiring items with money circumvents the mechanism by which things SHOULD BE acquired: by playing the game and experiencing the content. Anything else cheapens the experience for everyone (whether they care or not).
Should be is only synonymous with "what you want it to be".
What everyone should want: a game where you earn things by playing the actual game! It perplexes and vexes me that people (who aren't using it to make money) actually defend the cash-shop idea.
Sure you do
Lockboxes and pay to win aren't even what the topic is about, but that won't stop them from their usual threadjacking to create another podium to warn others about the evils of pay to win.
It seems like there was this point about two years or so ago when the ThouMustGroup Cultist and their glorious leader Ihmotepp mysteriously disappeared, and the void was filled by P2W doomheralds.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Here is the definition you linked to:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
That says nothing about it not being P2W if you can also grind for the gear in game Lizardbones, I think the definition you linked to suits my own far better than yours.
Granted I may well have taken the thread of topic. Do you think that concerns about grouping were misfounded? When we have the industry itself wondering where the community has gone, trying to get more grouping started with dynamic join as you turn up events and "solo" games all coming with group PvP?
It was never a case of MMOs not being able to exist without grouping. Nor is it a case that MMOs will now fail they have become P2W and gambling will spread to every last one of them. It was always about what sort of MMO do you want?
Near hits, not successes, are what make a game addictive.
A game where you have to perform five enchantment tries with 20% success rate rather than one with 100% will be the more successful game.
It's psychology. A high chance to fail adds risk to a task (=adrenaline). A long, tedious task with 100% success rate is a boring grind, nothing more.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.