Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.
Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????
I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.
Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.
Green text. I think this is a better policy to have than not allowing women in at all since you at least give a chance to the female player to prove herself. I don't think that every female player should be branded a trouble maker from the get-go just because of a few bad apples. How do you even find out if we are female ? Those of us who are teamplayers don't make a habit of advertizing ourselves since we are 'just one of the guys'.
Besides the drama and stuff can happen regardless of who you got in your guild as we can see from the OP.
My suggestion to the OP, to change the subject slightly, is to next time try to nip the problem in the bud. Good leaders tend to anticipate things (not always possible since this comes with experience). Next time a 'Bob' appears in your guild, invite him to make a subsidiary guild linked to yours. There is no shame in having a casual/leveling guild associated with a hardcore raid guild. I think it is better than mixing the aims in one guild.
The other thing is to balance what you invest in the guild with what other players invest. Don't put too much of yourself into it because it is just a game. Instead, try to lead by example in the sense of stressing that other players help out others like you help them out. In WoW it is hard because a lot of people are pretty selfish and it is so easy to guildhop.
Good luck in the future. I hope you do continue with your ideas of leading a guild because a lot of guilds die pretty quickly so if yours worked for as long as it did, it is already sort of a rarity in today's WoW.
Things went well and a few months into it the guild had grown solid and many players had become friends and wanted to transform the guild into something more, into a raiding guild, to which i agreed, and despite my lack of experience in the leading role, i did my best and we even got a few nice completions and kills.
You lost leadership right there and hate to say it, deserved it.
You started out as one thing, with no experience and had a great time doing it and so did your guild, you never should have changed that and should have told others to create an off-shoot if they wanted something more.
Once a guild makes progression its focus, all loyalty and friendship is tossed out the window.
The guild I am in has several divisions set up. A Casual, a raiding, a PvP and an RP guild all under the same umbrella. This allows us to stay together yet at the same time, apart, if we want to focus on one thing, even while spread out over different games.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Seen that kinda thing happen in many games where a guild started out as one thing and all a sudden became another. Personally I never been big on raids or pvp. Never even started on raids and only pvp for fun every once in awhile. Once they start trying to change the focus from what your guild is set on to something else you should end it there if your their leader. Otherwise do like I do when I'm in a guild that decides to change and find a new one with a similar focus as I have. Done the whole leaving to find new guilds plenty of times and I've told others when i was leader that if they wanted to hardcore raid or pvp to simple leave and start their own and take any members that feel the same with them. Send out a mail saying that is your decision and offer to let them back if they want to refocus back on your guilds main purpose. I've found most people only raid or pvp for so long until their ready to go back casual if that is what they started out doing.
As others have said never give up leadership due to pressure and stick to your guns. I'd go so far as to tell them I want leadership back and that they should go make a raiding guild that can be associated with your guild.
Transition from a casual to a raiding guild is horrible. Guys that were previously just happy to log and chat, doing retro or randoms together start to think in a different way: suddently everything is about gear and skill and optimising the team. It also often lead to a split between the guildies that remain casuals and the raiders... So yeah... I would strongly advice to any leader to really think about this before jumping the shark. If you decide to start raiding, be sure to write rules and fix goal: how many raiding nights, what kind of difficulty (lfr, flex, hc..) etc. If someone isn't following YOUR vision, eh! Just kick him from YOUR guild !
Originally posted by aSynchro Transition from a casual to a raiding guild is horrible. Guys that were previously just happy to log and chat, doing retro or randoms together start to think in a different way: suddently everything is about gear and skill and optimising the team. It also often lead to a split between the guildies that remain casuals and the raiders... So yeah... I would strongly advice to any leader to really think about this before jumping the shark. If you decide to start raiding, be sure to write rules and fix goal: how many raiding nights, what kind of difficulty (lfr, flex, hc..) etc. If someone isn't following YOUR vision, eh! Just kick him from YOUR guild !
What worked best for me was a sepperate raiding group, away from the guilds....
its quite easy setting up a chatchannel for this where raiders can join in....
worked great in vanilla raiding for us, and in some other engame games i played...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Some good advice in this thread, but there's something that needs to be said about guild security (as Blizzard changed some guild rules, and a serious one is petitioning them for guild control [returnees maybe unaware of this change]):
If you plan to make a guild have RL friends and/or family members as top officers if possible. This is done because they will be loyal to you unlike those online, and if there's any power plays you and they can assume control. That securely locks the administration of the guild, and if you need to go on vacation, or become ill, there's someone you *can* trust there to watch the guild. It also helps to keep an ambitious guildie from petitioning Blizzard for guild control and getting control if you're away for over 30 days (Blizzard now allows guild members without an active guild leader to petition for control of the guild -- why you want trusted people to have the top officer positions, as Blizzard will hand it to the next highest active officer. Never give the #2 position to someone you don't really know no matter how kind and helpful in game. That position must be someone you trust explicitly).
Only give yourself and them the power to promote or demote (the raid leader and recruiter positions don't need promotion/demotion privileges). That's to ensure that any promotion/demotion you are aware of and who did it. Malicious officers will invite and position enough supporters to undermine the guild, and you want to see what is happening before it gets out of hand.
If you're playing WoW without RL friends and/or family but don't want your guild ever to be in a situation that someone can power play or petition for control -- send everyone a notice that you will be expelling members due to whatever situation you're having. Be nice and give them a couple of days to find a new guild before closing to lessen the drama this can cause. It's drastic, but the rules have changed and this is the only way for someone without RL friend/family support to maintain control
Officer recruiting tips: No matter how informal or casual your guild is...always conduct formal interviews of officers and with at least 1 other officer as a witness. This sets the tone that you're in control, organized and got your ship in order (they too need to know if you aren't wasting their time). It also allows you time to look at their application; your witness to offer feedback; and check if they're not a BSer (which unfortunately a common behavior in WoW). If their application doesn't match up with their voice chat interview, ditch them no matter how good they look. You will be tempted to accept them, but don't fall for it. You want officers who don't need to pad their application, because if they're willing to pad, they will lie again and again and again. If that means taking in a lesser experienced player, so be it. A lesser experienced player who is honest is a much better asset, as he can always improve and doesn't need to overstate his importance. Secondly, the voice chat interview is also the time to judge if you can handle their personality, as some are quite aggressive. If you feel intimidated by his/her personality you may wish to accept another applicant, as you WILL knock heads sooner than latter, and those types of people are quite political and will fish for support in and out of the guild causing drama. Ideally you want someone who matches your personality and will at the most, if you have to raise your voice over them to be heard or to gain their attention, they're not a good match for you (others in a group will see it as a weakness that you can't gain group control, too). You always have to appear as the final authority, and always can command the attention (but don't make the mistake of acting like a tyrant. Remember a light hand of direction -- and carrying a big stick -- is more effective in maintaining discipline than being Ivan the Terrible!).
This happens and did to me as well not in wow but in lotro. So I hear ya and sadly rather then be an a-hole and close the guild I did end up leaving. I did not step down due to poor leadership it was more one guy joined added all his buddies and took over. After about 2 years I found myself in much the same position you are/were. Wish I could tell you otherwise but leaving is about the last hope you have to move on....
To you raid position: People with lower gear should be the 1st in line to take a class roll unless your toon can't "tank" or just can't "heal". Putting that guy with the best gear is nice for him and leaves people with lower gear scores at lower gear scores and gimp you and your guilds overall progress. It was said (not be me) "You are as strong as your weakest link"
The guild leader absolutely has to be the one of the most active people in a guild or the guild won't work. This often means huge time commitments especially when in a raiding guild. It's up to the guild leader also to provide direction of the guild. If the goal was to not become a serious raid guild, but a casual one then it's important that as a leader you are recruiting a set of hardcore players who are going to want to be a serious raid guild in the future.
If you fell behind in gear, you obviously weren't as active as other guildies and/or you didn't have a system in place that properly rewarded loot by attendance. By not being as well geared as others, bringing you onto a raid would have been a determinant to the raid progression. Nobody is obligated to get you gear when you are putting as much time and effort into progression as others.
And again, if you never intended your guild to become serious about raiding why would you recruit players who clearly are more active than you into the guild?
If you fell behind in gear, you obviously weren't as active as other guildies and/or you didn't have a system in place that properly rewarded loot by attendance. By not being as well geared as others, bringing you onto a raid would have been a determinant to the raid progression. Nobody is obligated to get you gear when you are putting as much time and effort into progression as others.
Unless the GL is a Holy paladin and intellect plat has a 0.3% drop rate (and can finally see a shield drop 19 weeks later to even roll on it -- true story). -_-
Once a guild makes progression its focus, all loyalty and friendship is tossed out the window.
That is probably the saddest truth of guilds in these types of games.
I played wow for a solid three years before slowing down to a more casual style. However before I did quit I witnessed my guild become absorbed not once, but twice to other guilds. In the beginning it was great. We bumbled through dungeons and some smaller raids like a bunch of sauntering drunks. Most of the time it was a game of trying to figure out who was sober enough to lead the runs. Probably some of the better times I can recall in my years of gaming, even if it was just WoW. There was hadly ever any hard feelings about wipes and we didnt overly obsess about gear so much as playing together.
Halfway through BC our GL and officers made a decision to disband and regroup into a larger and more focused guild. Big mistake. I didn't think about it until much later but we traded our in game friendships for gear and raid spots. The core of our guild was integrated as a second raid group and it worked fairly well until the seed of progression was planted into our minds. Our more casuals either just stopped logging in or slowly worked themselves out of the guild. The more dedicated ones stayed on and either sat around on the "B" team or shimmied up the ladder to the main raid group. We spent less time together and more time worrying about gear.
A few months after WotLK we reabsorbed into an even more raid focused guild. That spelled about the end of it for me. Most of the original members were hooked line and sinker on progression, thereby completing the downward spiral into the dark side of gaming. It felt more like a military training camp than anything enjoyable. I logged out and didnt come back until a month into Cata and after that spent most of my time after that as a ghost in the guild. I eventually just gave up completely after I heard about Pandas. The magic was gone and the friendships we had forged were as disposable as accidental looted grey gear.
Bit of a sad story I guess.
Anyway,
OP got screwed. Giving up the seat of power to another was as admirable as it was foolish in this instance. Should have told Bob to take himself and any other mutineers he had poisoned straight to the guild NPC. Go make your own guild Bob! Peace be with 'Ya and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You would have won respect from those who stuck around after the exodus and set yourself up for better success on the next round of recruitment. Instead you conceded to your own defeat and handed over the keys to the castle.
Comments
Green text. I think this is a better policy to have than not allowing women in at all since you at least give a chance to the female player to prove herself. I don't think that every female player should be branded a trouble maker from the get-go just because of a few bad apples. How do you even find out if we are female ? Those of us who are teamplayers don't make a habit of advertizing ourselves since we are 'just one of the guys'.
Besides the drama and stuff can happen regardless of who you got in your guild as we can see from the OP.
My suggestion to the OP, to change the subject slightly, is to next time try to nip the problem in the bud. Good leaders tend to anticipate things (not always possible since this comes with experience). Next time a 'Bob' appears in your guild, invite him to make a subsidiary guild linked to yours. There is no shame in having a casual/leveling guild associated with a hardcore raid guild. I think it is better than mixing the aims in one guild.
The other thing is to balance what you invest in the guild with what other players invest. Don't put too much of yourself into it because it is just a game. Instead, try to lead by example in the sense of stressing that other players help out others like you help them out. In WoW it is hard because a lot of people are pretty selfish and it is so easy to guildhop.
Good luck in the future. I hope you do continue with your ideas of leading a guild because a lot of guilds die pretty quickly so if yours worked for as long as it did, it is already sort of a rarity in today's WoW.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
You lost leadership right there and hate to say it, deserved it.
You started out as one thing, with no experience and had a great time doing it and so did your guild, you never should have changed that and should have told others to create an off-shoot if they wanted something more.
Once a guild makes progression its focus, all loyalty and friendship is tossed out the window.
The guild I am in has several divisions set up. A Casual, a raiding, a PvP and an RP guild all under the same umbrella. This allows us to stay together yet at the same time, apart, if we want to focus on one thing, even while spread out over different games.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Seen that kinda thing happen in many games where a guild started out as one thing and all a sudden became another. Personally I never been big on raids or pvp. Never even started on raids and only pvp for fun every once in awhile. Once they start trying to change the focus from what your guild is set on to something else you should end it there if your their leader. Otherwise do like I do when I'm in a guild that decides to change and find a new one with a similar focus as I have. Done the whole leaving to find new guilds plenty of times and I've told others when i was leader that if they wanted to hardcore raid or pvp to simple leave and start their own and take any members that feel the same with them. Send out a mail saying that is your decision and offer to let them back if they want to refocus back on your guilds main purpose. I've found most people only raid or pvp for so long until their ready to go back casual if that is what they started out doing.
As others have said never give up leadership due to pressure and stick to your guns. I'd go so far as to tell them I want leadership back and that they should go make a raiding guild that can be associated with your guild.
So yeah... I would strongly advice to any leader to really think about this before jumping the shark. If you decide to start raiding, be sure to write rules and fix goal: how many raiding nights, what kind of difficulty (lfr, flex, hc..) etc.
If someone isn't following YOUR vision, eh! Just kick him from YOUR guild !
What worked best for me was a sepperate raiding group, away from the guilds....
its quite easy setting up a chatchannel for this where raiders can join in....
worked great in vanilla raiding for us, and in some other engame games i played...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Some good advice in this thread, but there's something that needs to be said about guild security (as Blizzard changed some guild rules, and a serious one is petitioning them for guild control [returnees maybe unaware of this change]):
If you plan to make a guild have RL friends and/or family members as top officers if possible. This is done because they will be loyal to you unlike those online, and if there's any power plays you and they can assume control. That securely locks the administration of the guild, and if you need to go on vacation, or become ill, there's someone you *can* trust there to watch the guild. It also helps to keep an ambitious guildie from petitioning Blizzard for guild control and getting control if you're away for over 30 days (Blizzard now allows guild members without an active guild leader to petition for control of the guild -- why you want trusted people to have the top officer positions, as Blizzard will hand it to the next highest active officer. Never give the #2 position to someone you don't really know no matter how kind and helpful in game. That position must be someone you trust explicitly).
Only give yourself and them the power to promote or demote (the raid leader and recruiter positions don't need promotion/demotion privileges). That's to ensure that any promotion/demotion you are aware of and who did it. Malicious officers will invite and position enough supporters to undermine the guild, and you want to see what is happening before it gets out of hand.
If you're playing WoW without RL friends and/or family but don't want your guild ever to be in a situation that someone can power play or petition for control -- send everyone a notice that you will be expelling members due to whatever situation you're having. Be nice and give them a couple of days to find a new guild before closing to lessen the drama this can cause. It's drastic, but the rules have changed and this is the only way for someone without RL friend/family support to maintain control
Officer recruiting tips: No matter how informal or casual your guild is...always conduct formal interviews of officers and with at least 1 other officer as a witness. This sets the tone that you're in control, organized and got your ship in order (they too need to know if you aren't wasting their time). It also allows you time to look at their application; your witness to offer feedback; and check if they're not a BSer (which unfortunately a common behavior in WoW). If their application doesn't match up with their voice chat interview, ditch them no matter how good they look. You will be tempted to accept them, but don't fall for it. You want officers who don't need to pad their application, because if they're willing to pad, they will lie again and again and again. If that means taking in a lesser experienced player, so be it. A lesser experienced player who is honest is a much better asset, as he can always improve and doesn't need to overstate his importance. Secondly, the voice chat interview is also the time to judge if you can handle their personality, as some are quite aggressive. If you feel intimidated by his/her personality you may wish to accept another applicant, as you WILL knock heads sooner than latter, and those types of people are quite political and will fish for support in and out of the guild causing drama. Ideally you want someone who matches your personality and will at the most, if you have to raise your voice over them to be heard or to gain their attention, they're not a good match for you (others in a group will see it as a weakness that you can't gain group control, too). You always have to appear as the final authority, and always can command the attention (but don't make the mistake of acting like a tyrant. Remember a light hand of direction -- and carrying a big stick -- is more effective in maintaining discipline than being Ivan the Terrible!).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
This happens and did to me as well not in wow but in lotro. So I hear ya and sadly rather then be an a-hole and close the guild I did end up leaving. I did not step down due to poor leadership it was more one guy joined added all his buddies and took over. After about 2 years I found myself in much the same position you are/were. Wish I could tell you otherwise but leaving is about the last hope you have to move on....
To you raid position: People with lower gear should be the 1st in line to take a class roll unless your toon can't "tank" or just can't "heal". Putting that guy with the best gear is nice for him and leaves people with lower gear scores at lower gear scores and gimp you and your guilds overall progress. It was said (not be me) "You are as strong as your weakest link"
GL
The guild leader absolutely has to be the one of the most active people in a guild or the guild won't work. This often means huge time commitments especially when in a raiding guild. It's up to the guild leader also to provide direction of the guild. If the goal was to not become a serious raid guild, but a casual one then it's important that as a leader you are recruiting a set of hardcore players who are going to want to be a serious raid guild in the future.
If you fell behind in gear, you obviously weren't as active as other guildies and/or you didn't have a system in place that properly rewarded loot by attendance. By not being as well geared as others, bringing you onto a raid would have been a determinant to the raid progression. Nobody is obligated to get you gear when you are putting as much time and effort into progression as others.
And again, if you never intended your guild to become serious about raiding why would you recruit players who clearly are more active than you into the guild?
Unless the GL is a Holy paladin and intellect plat has a 0.3% drop rate (and can finally see a shield drop 19 weeks later to even roll on it -- true story). -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
That is probably the saddest truth of guilds in these types of games.
I played wow for a solid three years before slowing down to a more casual style. However before I did quit I witnessed my guild become absorbed not once, but twice to other guilds. In the beginning it was great. We bumbled through dungeons and some smaller raids like a bunch of sauntering drunks. Most of the time it was a game of trying to figure out who was sober enough to lead the runs. Probably some of the better times I can recall in my years of gaming, even if it was just WoW. There was hadly ever any hard feelings about wipes and we didnt overly obsess about gear so much as playing together.
Halfway through BC our GL and officers made a decision to disband and regroup into a larger and more focused guild. Big mistake. I didn't think about it until much later but we traded our in game friendships for gear and raid spots. The core of our guild was integrated as a second raid group and it worked fairly well until the seed of progression was planted into our minds. Our more casuals either just stopped logging in or slowly worked themselves out of the guild. The more dedicated ones stayed on and either sat around on the "B" team or shimmied up the ladder to the main raid group. We spent less time together and more time worrying about gear.
A few months after WotLK we reabsorbed into an even more raid focused guild. That spelled about the end of it for me. Most of the original members were hooked line and sinker on progression, thereby completing the downward spiral into the dark side of gaming. It felt more like a military training camp than anything enjoyable. I logged out and didnt come back until a month into Cata and after that spent most of my time after that as a ghost in the guild. I eventually just gave up completely after I heard about Pandas. The magic was gone and the friendships we had forged were as disposable as accidental looted grey gear.
Bit of a sad story I guess.
Anyway,
OP got screwed. Giving up the seat of power to another was as admirable as it was foolish in this instance. Should have told Bob to take himself and any other mutineers he had poisoned straight to the guild NPC. Go make your own guild Bob! Peace be with 'Ya and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You would have won respect from those who stuck around after the exodus and set yourself up for better success on the next round of recruitment. Instead you conceded to your own defeat and handed over the keys to the castle.
Oops.