Originally posted by Mawnee You know, when I initially heard about this I was like "no way, not with Brad in charge". But honestly even a half finished game from him will probably be better than what is being released lately. I'll probably throw $30 at his Kick starter just because I have nothing better to play right now.
Donating money to KS doesnt let you play anything right now. (except the game of Chance)
It funds someone who may or may not produce a game sometime in the future.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Welcome to the age where people who should certainly have enough money to start their own project instead pander to the kickstarter crowd so they risk nothing of their own and have everything to gain.
It should be seen as far more despicable than how people currently view it. Some small indie person or group who has no other means? That is fine. Some guy who was an MMO exec for many years and should have plenty of money to fund his own project? Pathetic.
I don't see how not starting a Kickstarter in December is a misstep. People have already spent their gift budgets, will be getting presents etc. Hard to justify spending cash on something that isn't out yet during the holidays.
Moreover, he also said that it allows them to show more of the game in Jan.
Seems like a blanket assertion that someone who has been in the industry obviously has the funds to start his own MMO. That's millions of dollars I doubt one individual has.
Additionally, a reason people Kickstart projects is so that they don't have to go through a publisher or producer. Brad doesn't have to try and get, say, SOE to help fund his project (and the myriad of strings that would become attached). In effect, the backers become the producers, giving greater creative control to Brad and his team.
This is similar to the outcry against famous actors Kickstarting movies. Hey! Don't they have the money to do it themselves? Perhaps, but the Kickstarter also helps gauge how many people are out there willing to pay for the product.
Originally posted by Mawnee You know, when I initially heard about this I was like "no way, not with Brad in charge". But honestly even a half finished game from him will probably be better than what is being released lately. I'll probably throw $30 at his Kick starter just because I have nothing better to play right now.
Donating money to KS doesnt let you play anything right now. (except the game of Chance)
It funds someone who may or may not produce a game sometime in the future.
Um...no S***, however there is nothing out or coming out right now that is worth my money. I'll gladly fund this in the hopes of something worth playing being made.
Originally posted by Fendel84M I'm not usually this cynical. But can anyone trust Brad enough after Vanguard to give him their money?
I thought he was working on EQ Next anyways? What gives?
I love Vanguard.. so my answer is yes.
Same here ill give him another chance, hell it's not like he has done anything personal to me. Yes i'll be cautious but if he shows me something i like then i'll put down a bit of cash.
I just worry that the man will start popping pills again. I'm assuming to get to that point, stress has to factor in majorly, and from what I can garner he isn't good at heading a project and people are already crucifying the man before he even pitches his Kickstarter. I think he'll be even more stressed than before so I just can't see this turning out very well for him or gamers.
I don't see how not starting a Kickstarter in December is a misstep. People have already spent their gift budgets, will be getting presents etc. Hard to justify spending cash on something that isn't out yet during the holidays.
Moreover, he also said that it allows them to show more of the game in Jan.
exactly, something that anyone with a sense of business acumen would have considered first, not after the fact.
my point is not that this is some huge mistake, but that it's a very simple 'problem' that would never have flickered more than a moment in the thoughts of someone with real business sense.
Brad, please! get a pro to produce your project, get some angel investors and give us a great game!
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
The pressure Microsoft and Sony gave him to perform is nothing compared to the stress fans will cause if he underperforms with kickstarter money.
Uh, its the exact opposite. There is no pressure with kickstarter because there are no investors. Kickstarter means the devs don't have to answer to anyone, and that especially backers.
There is a myth that many people believe that just because you back a kickstarter means you have a say. You don't. Some developers will listen to you, some will pretend to listen to you, others will just ignore you. Its no different than non kickstarter projects.
The pressure Microsoft and Sony gave him to perform is nothing compared to the stress fans will cause if he underperforms with kickstarter money.
Uh, its the exact opposite. There is no pressure with kickstarter because there are no investors. Kickstarter means the devs don't have to answer to anyone, and that especially backers.
There is a myth that many people believe that just because you back a kickstarter means you have a say. You don't. Some developers will listen to you, some will pretend to listen to you, others will just ignore you. Its no different than non kickstarter projects.
the double edged sword of KS is exactly that. the funders send in a donation, that's all it is. if it were anything else it would be more thoroughly regulated.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
It's interesting how everyone goes back to how Brad may have done drugs while running Vanguard. Even if that's the case, the end result is still better than most MMO's that have come out recently.
Yes, bugs and poor tech doomed it, but despite all that this is a game that people still play. There are MMO's released post Vanguard that no longer exist.
I will back a game on KS if its from a first time or unknown Developer before I back one from someone who has previously Developed games.
If you are a known Developer (Garriot, Jacobs, McQuaid) and have to use KS to fund your game, to me that means that no Legitimate Investors are willing to take a chance on you.
Unless you match KS funds with your own $$, I wont consider you a viable investment.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
I will back a game on KS if its from a first time or unknown Developer before I back one from someone who has previously Developed games.
If you are a known Developer (Garriot, Jacobs, McQuaid) and have to use KS to fund your game, to me that means that no Legitimate Investors are willing to take a chance on you.
Unless you match KS funds with your own $$, I wont consider you a viable investment.
Yeah, cause investors are such brilliant sound decisioned people.
<cough cough SWTOR, AoC, and every other big budget major AAA casual MMO failure>
Wasteland 2 wouldn't have even been made because publishers didn't want it, without kickstarter. And its fucking amazing.
Investors are growing more and more risk adverse. This is why so many films are sequels or reboots; they don't want to take a risk on a new idea.
To assume that people go to Kickstarter because "no real investors" are confident in their product is folly. If the MMO isn't geared towards grabbing the most possible people (see: WoW, SWTOR) they it will likely not get funded.
Or, if gets funded, but with a ton of strings attached a little control from the creative directors.
I wouldn't conflate using Kickstarter as meaning "bad product". Hell, SOE is basically crowdfunding EverQuest Next through early adopter packs for Landmark.
Originally posted by RazeeksterI just worry that the man will start popping pills again.
There was never any evidence he was "popping pills" to begin with.
There isn't? Then what is it that everyone is referencing? Are people just this mean-spirited or is this man that hated?
There are lots of rumors that Brad got into drugs, and that hindered his ability to properly manage Vanguard; hence the sad state of release.
There is no firm evidence of this. If I had to go on gut I would say that it's likely true, but there were other factors as well (the scope of the game expanded beyond funding).
I still come down on the side of an MMO in the "classic" (EQ, Vanguard) mold poorly managed by Brad sounds more interesting than most other MMO's that are out or coming.
I wouldn't conflate using Kickstarter as meaning "bad product". Hell, SOE is basically crowdfunding EverQuest Next through early adopter packs for Landmark.
Never said using KS = Bad Product.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
I don't know, he's using all the same blurbs he used to sell Vanguard. He had millions to use to make that game, and we all know how it turned out.
Not sure why anyone would be willing to give this guy money.
Saying you would because of Vanguard is kind of silly to me, SoE is the reason vanguard turned out to be any good. It was SoE devs that got sent to Sigil to help them with the game, it was SoE that agreed to publish the game, it was SoE that agreed to buy the game and get it released.
SoE is the reason vanguard exists today, and is playable; not Mcquaid. Mcquaid was the reason that game almost never saw the light of day, why Sigil no longer exists, and why a bunch of people lost their jobs.
There are lots of rumors that Brad got into drugs, and that hindered his ability to properly manage Vanguard; hence the sad state of release.
There is no firm evidence of this. If I had to go on gut I would say that it's likely true, but there were other factors as well (the scope of the game expanded beyond funding).
I still come down on the side of an MMO in the "classic" (EQ, Vanguard) mold poorly managed by Brad sounds more interesting than most other MMO's that are out or coming.
For me personally, it has nothing to do with Brad's alleged drug use, it's the management of Sigil and how they treated their employees. Game comes out in January 2007, and on May 14 of that same year, after seeing a not-so great release they tell their employees to meet in the parking lot only to be told they were fired. Next day, SoE announces their acquisition of Sigil with Brad remaining as creative advisor for Vanguard.
Real shady when gauging reputation, again my view.
There are lots of rumors that Brad got into drugs, and that hindered his ability to properly manage Vanguard; hence the sad state of release.
There is no firm evidence of this. If I had to go on gut I would say that it's likely true, but there were other factors as well (the scope of the game expanded beyond funding).
I still come down on the side of an MMO in the "classic" (EQ, Vanguard) mold poorly managed by Brad sounds more interesting than most other MMO's that are out or coming.
For me personally, it has nothing to do with Brad's alleged drug use, it's the management of Sigil and how they treated their employees. Game comes out in January 2007, and on May 14 of that same year, after seeing a not-so great release they tell their employees to meet in the parking lot only to be told they were fired. Next day, SoE announces their acquisition of Sigil with Brad remaining as creative advisor for Vanguard.
Real shady when gauging reputation, again my view.
We only ever got one side to this story, was it Brad's decision to fire these people? Why'd he decide to do so in a parking lot? Would it have been better to call them without a face to face? Most of what people cite from this incident is internet hearsay, the fact is no one here knows what actually went down with VG, or with the termination of those employees. I saw the letter that referenced all of this stuff. It was that letter that started all of these rumors, the letter written by an employee who fell victim to those firings. Who's to say how accurate that letter actually was?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We only ever got one side to this story, was it Brad's decision to fire these people? Why'd he decide to do so in a parking lot? Would it have been better to call them without a face to face? Most of what people cite from this incident is internet hearsay, the fact is no one here knows what actually went down with VG, or with the termination of those employees. I saw the letter that referenced all of this stuff. It was that letter that started all of these rumors, the letter written by an employee who fell victim to those firings. Who's to say how accurate that letter actually was?
As a co-founder of the company, it is kind of a responsibility to think of your employees. The fact that he was kept in the loop with SoE shows he knew about the firing and either approved or did little in the manner it was done.
I wonder how many ppl would find it excusable for their boss to do it in this way then hearing he sold the company the day after. The norm is usually a notice of foreclosure, selling off or dissolution. If you did something wrong, then it can be immediate. We see this practice often and it is both immoral and illegal.
Comments
Donating money to KS doesnt let you play anything right now. (except the game of Chance)
It funds someone who may or may not produce a game sometime in the future.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
Welcome to the age where people who should certainly have enough money to start their own project instead pander to the kickstarter crowd so they risk nothing of their own and have everything to gain.
It should be seen as far more despicable than how people currently view it. Some small indie person or group who has no other means? That is fine. Some guy who was an MMO exec for many years and should have plenty of money to fund his own project? Pathetic.
I don't see how not starting a Kickstarter in December is a misstep. People have already spent their gift budgets, will be getting presents etc. Hard to justify spending cash on something that isn't out yet during the holidays.
Moreover, he also said that it allows them to show more of the game in Jan.
Seems like a blanket assertion that someone who has been in the industry obviously has the funds to start his own MMO. That's millions of dollars I doubt one individual has.
Additionally, a reason people Kickstart projects is so that they don't have to go through a publisher or producer. Brad doesn't have to try and get, say, SOE to help fund his project (and the myriad of strings that would become attached). In effect, the backers become the producers, giving greater creative control to Brad and his team.
This is similar to the outcry against famous actors Kickstarting movies. Hey! Don't they have the money to do it themselves? Perhaps, but the Kickstarter also helps gauge how many people are out there willing to pay for the product.
Um...no S***, however there is nothing out or coming out right now that is worth my money. I'll gladly fund this in the hopes of something worth playing being made.
Same here ill give him another chance, hell it's not like he has done anything personal to me. Yes i'll be cautious but if he shows me something i like then i'll put down a bit of cash.
Time will tell.
Smile
exactly, something that anyone with a sense of business acumen would have considered first, not after the fact.
my point is not that this is some huge mistake, but that it's a very simple 'problem' that would never have flickered more than a moment in the thoughts of someone with real business sense.
Brad, please! get a pro to produce your project, get some angel investors and give us a great game!
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Uh, its the exact opposite. There is no pressure with kickstarter because there are no investors. Kickstarter means the devs don't have to answer to anyone, and that especially backers.
There is a myth that many people believe that just because you back a kickstarter means you have a say. You don't. Some developers will listen to you, some will pretend to listen to you, others will just ignore you. Its no different than non kickstarter projects.
the double edged sword of KS is exactly that. the funders send in a donation, that's all it is. if it were anything else it would be more thoroughly regulated.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
It's interesting how everyone goes back to how Brad may have done drugs while running Vanguard. Even if that's the case, the end result is still better than most MMO's that have come out recently.
Yes, bugs and poor tech doomed it, but despite all that this is a game that people still play. There are MMO's released post Vanguard that no longer exist.
I will back a game on KS if its from a first time or unknown Developer before I back one from someone who has previously Developed games.
If you are a known Developer (Garriot, Jacobs, McQuaid) and have to use KS to fund your game, to me that means that no Legitimate Investors are willing to take a chance on you.
Unless you match KS funds with your own $$, I wont consider you a viable investment.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
Yeah, cause investors are such brilliant sound decisioned people.
<cough cough SWTOR, AoC, and every other big budget major AAA casual MMO failure>
Wasteland 2 wouldn't have even been made because publishers didn't want it, without kickstarter. And its fucking amazing.
There isn't? Then what is it that everyone is referencing? Are people just this mean-spirited or is this man that hated?
Smile
Investors are growing more and more risk adverse. This is why so many films are sequels or reboots; they don't want to take a risk on a new idea.
To assume that people go to Kickstarter because "no real investors" are confident in their product is folly. If the MMO isn't geared towards grabbing the most possible people (see: WoW, SWTOR) they it will likely not get funded.
Or, if gets funded, but with a ton of strings attached a little control from the creative directors.
I wouldn't conflate using Kickstarter as meaning "bad product". Hell, SOE is basically crowdfunding EverQuest Next through early adopter packs for Landmark.
There are lots of rumors that Brad got into drugs, and that hindered his ability to properly manage Vanguard; hence the sad state of release.
There is no firm evidence of this. If I had to go on gut I would say that it's likely true, but there were other factors as well (the scope of the game expanded beyond funding).
I still come down on the side of an MMO in the "classic" (EQ, Vanguard) mold poorly managed by Brad sounds more interesting than most other MMO's that are out or coming.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington
Never said using KS = Bad Product.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
I don't know, he's using all the same blurbs he used to sell Vanguard. He had millions to use to make that game, and we all know how it turned out.
Not sure why anyone would be willing to give this guy money.
Saying you would because of Vanguard is kind of silly to me, SoE is the reason vanguard turned out to be any good. It was SoE devs that got sent to Sigil to help them with the game, it was SoE that agreed to publish the game, it was SoE that agreed to buy the game and get it released.
SoE is the reason vanguard exists today, and is playable; not Mcquaid. Mcquaid was the reason that game almost never saw the light of day, why Sigil no longer exists, and why a bunch of people lost their jobs.
For me personally, it has nothing to do with Brad's alleged drug use, it's the management of Sigil and how they treated their employees. Game comes out in January 2007, and on May 14 of that same year, after seeing a not-so great release they tell their employees to meet in the parking lot only to be told they were fired. Next day, SoE announces their acquisition of Sigil with Brad remaining as creative advisor for Vanguard.
Real shady when gauging reputation, again my view.
We only ever got one side to this story, was it Brad's decision to fire these people? Why'd he decide to do so in a parking lot? Would it have been better to call them without a face to face? Most of what people cite from this incident is internet hearsay, the fact is no one here knows what actually went down with VG, or with the termination of those employees. I saw the letter that referenced all of this stuff. It was that letter that started all of these rumors, the letter written by an employee who fell victim to those firings. Who's to say how accurate that letter actually was?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As a co-founder of the company, it is kind of a responsibility to think of your employees. The fact that he was kept in the loop with SoE shows he knew about the firing and either approved or did little in the manner it was done.
I wonder how many ppl would find it excusable for their boss to do it in this way then hearing he sold the company the day after. The norm is usually a notice of foreclosure, selling off or dissolution. If you did something wrong, then it can be immediate. We see this practice often and it is both immoral and illegal.