We only ever got one side to this story, was it Brad's decision to fire these people? Why'd he decide to do so in a parking lot? Would it have been better to call them without a face to face? Most of what people cite from this incident is internet hearsay, the fact is no one here knows what actually went down with VG, or with the termination of those employees. I saw the letter that referenced all of this stuff. It was that letter that started all of these rumors, the letter written by an employee who fell victim to those firings. Who's to say how accurate that letter actually was?
As a co-founder of the company, it is kind of a responsibility to think of your employees. The fact that he was kept in the loop with SoE shows he knew about the firing and either approved or did little in the manner it was done.
I wonder how many ppl would find it excusable for their boss to do it in this way then hearing he sold the company the day after. The norm is usually a notice of foreclosure, selling off or dissolution. If you did something wrong, then it can be immediate. We see this practice often and it is both immoral and illegal.
My point was that people cite stories they don't even know they have right.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My point was that people cite stories they don't even know they have right.
I understand and agree. As I previously said, and of which the post you quoted was in replying to, was that I do not trust Brad enough to support his KS for how he managed the whole thing.
We only ever got one side to this story, was it Brad's decision to fire these people? Why'd he decide to do so in a parking lot? Would it have been better to call them without a face to face? Most of what people cite from this incident is internet hearsay, the fact is no one here knows what actually went down with VG, or with the termination of those employees. I saw the letter that referenced all of this stuff. It was that letter that started all of these rumors, the letter written by an employee who fell victim to those firings. Who's to say how accurate that letter actually was?
As a co-founder of the company, it is kind of a responsibility to think of your employees. The fact that he was kept in the loop with SoE shows he knew about the firing and either approved or did little in the manner it was done.
I wonder how many ppl would find it excusable for their boss to do it in this way then hearing he sold the company the day after. The norm is usually a notice of foreclosure, selling off or dissolution. If you did something wrong, then it can be immediate. We see this practice often and it is both immoral and illegal.
Have you ever worked for a large company before?
Very rarely will you find managers within large companies givnig their employees the "headss up".
Heck, in my current company which is probably one of the best companies i have ever worked for (with amazing managers) they fire people by making an early morning meeting, giving them the news and paperwork and escorting them to the curb.
In my last company I had to stand by the fired individual's desk while they cleaned it out and then escort them out.
Which I hated. Luckily they knew I was being instructed to do so.
In a friend's former companyy they would invite the entire department to a meeting except the individual to be fired and then put him in a different meeting, info, firing, etc and then security woudl escort the person out.
I'm not saying that Brad was innocent or that the company folding was or wasn't his fault.
But if he let the entire company go then I can see it going down that way.
I suppose you could have a rogue manager who takes a more human approach. Heck, in my last company they laid off 11 people, I was one, and our manager was great about it. But he took a big chance as the instructions were to have us leave as soon as the info was given. He knew we weren't disgruntled so he allowed us to go at our own pace.
This is a part of life. Just like in some states you don't have to give notice, you can just quit.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My point was that people cite stories they don't even know they have right.
I understand and agree. As I previously said, and of which the post you quoted was in replying to, was that I do not trust Brad enough to support his KS for how he managed the whole thing.
That I can't blame anyone for, if you can't trust a guy based on past products, there's no fault in being unable to support him financially blindly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Very rarely will you find managers within large companies givnig their employees the "headss up".
Heck, in my current company which is probably one of the best companies i have ever worked for (with amazing managers) they fire people by making an early morning meeting, giving them the news and paperwork and escorting them to the curb.
In my last company I had to stand by the fired individual's desk while they cleaned it out and then escort them out.
Which I hated. Luckily they knew I was being instructed to do so.
In a friend's former companyy they would invite the entire department to a meeting except the individual to be fired and then put him in a different meeting, info, firing, etc and then security woudl escort the person out.
I'm not saying that Brad was innocent or that the company folding was or wasn't his fault.
But if he let the entire company go then I can see it going down that way.
I suppose you could have a rogue manager who takes a more human approach. Heck, in my last company they laid off 11 people, I was one, and our manager was great about it. But he took a big chance as the instructions were to have us leave as soon as the info was given. He knew we weren't disgruntled so he allowed us to go at our own pace.
This is a part of life. Just like in some states you don't have to give notice, you can just quit.
I have and as I said it does go on, yet it is still illegal. The fact they get away with it is irrelevant. The law is also different between a single firing and a mass firing. If no one then decides to fight for their rights and go along citing 'It's just a part of life' then so be it.
My point is still because of this I will not give my money to someone i feel condoned or enacted this behavior towards his employees.
We only ever got one side to this story, was it Brad's decision to fire these people? Why'd he decide to do so in a parking lot? Would it have been better to call them without a face to face? Most of what people cite from this incident is internet hearsay, the fact is no one here knows what actually went down with VG, or with the termination of those employees. I saw the letter that referenced all of this stuff. It was that letter that started all of these rumors, the letter written by an employee who fell victim to those firings. Who's to say how accurate that letter actually was?
As a co-founder of the company, it is kind of a responsibility to think of your employees. The fact that he was kept in the loop with SoE shows he knew about the firing and either approved or did little in the manner it was done.
I wonder how many ppl would find it excusable for their boss to do it in this way then hearing he sold the company the day after. The norm is usually a notice of foreclosure, selling off or dissolution. If you did something wrong, then it can be immediate. We see this practice often and it is both immoral and illegal.
Have you ever worked for a large company before?
Very rarely will you find managers within large companies givnig their employees the "headss up".
Heck, in my current company which is probably one of the best companies i have ever worked for (with amazing managers) they fire people by making an early morning meeting, giving them the news and paperwork and escorting them to the curb.
In my last company I had to stand by the fired individual's desk while they cleaned it out and then escort them out.
Which I hated. Luckily they knew I was being instructed to do so.
In a friend's former companyy they would invite the entire department to a meeting except the individual to be fired and then put him in a different meeting, info, firing, etc and then security woudl escort the person out.
I'm not saying that Brad was innocent or that the company folding was or wasn't his fault.
But if he let the entire company go then I can see it going down that way.
I suppose you could have a rogue manager who takes a more human approach. Heck, in my last company they laid off 11 people, I was one, and our manager was great about it. But he took a big chance as the instructions were to have us leave as soon as the info was given. He knew we weren't disgruntled so he allowed us to go at our own pace.
This is a part of life. Just like in some states you don't have to give notice, you can just quit.
From what I understand, McQuaid didnt even do the actual firing. In fact he didnt even show up.
He sent some poor lacky that no-one knew named Andy Platter to do his dirty work.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
I loved EQ1 probably more than most, but his last two products: Shadows of Luclin expansion and Vanguard leave a lot to be desired. I'd love to see him strike MMO gold again, but I'll probably have to take a wait and see approach before I test those waters again.
From what I understand, McQuaid didnt even do the actual firing. In fact he didnt even show up.
He sent some poor lacky that no-one knew named Andy Platter to do his dirty work.
Which really could mean a number of things considering human nature. The devil is in the details as always. Which we have none of outside of heated accounts.
It could have simply been a scenario of, BM being in a meeting with the suits passing word along on a blackberry to his assistant manager or something like that, if I place myself in the whistle-blowers shoes at the time, the above is exactly how I'd word such events (sending his lackey), regardless of what's really going on. For all anyone knows Brad might have fought for those employees, all this has become is a game of telephone.
A company got dissolved, happens all the time, the result is a lot of disgruntled people telling their side of the story.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
How many employees were laid off as there seems to be various numbers for "protected workers'. Also a company can lay people off:
"Unforeseeable business circumstance; natural disaster; company reasonably believed giving notice would affect chances of obtaining capital or business that it was actively seeking"
"Temporary facility or completion of a particular project if employees hired with that understanding"
Probably not the latter but I can see the former.
removing this too snarky and rude on my part. apologies.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
From what I understand, McQuaid didnt even do the actual firing. In fact he didnt even show up.
He sent some poor lacky that no-one knew named Andy Platter to do his dirty work.
Which really could mean a number of things considering human nature. The devil is in the details as always. Which we have none of outside of heated accounts.
It could have simply been a scenario of, BM being in a meeting with the suits passing word along on a blackberry to his assistant manager or something like that, if I place myself in the whistle-blowers shoes at the time, the above is exactly how I'd word such events (sending his lackey), regardless of what's really going on. For all anyone knows Brad might have fought for those employees, all this has become is a game of telephone.
A company got dissolved, happens all the time, the result is a lot of disgruntled people telling their side of the story.
So how come we have only heard that 1 side? Why hasnt some other ex-Sigil employee come out and say "No. Thats not the way it happened."
No one has refuted it.
Not even McQuaid.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
I thiink I heard the same thing as well, regarding him not doing the firing.
but again, this could be more heresay because in some companies the managers don't do the firing, they send H.R. to do it.
So perhaps his employers said "we are laying them off so don't show up to work. Then this Andy Platter shows up and finishes it.
I'm not trying to defend him but I've seen enough firings/lay offs go down to know that what is being said here feels like half he truth.
I understand your point of view. Also, it could be that Sigil were not legally bound to compensation and/or notification if they could prove the company fell into one of the 'exempt' categories.
I still find it shady that merely a few months after the game launches saying it was a 'successful launch" and yet proves nothing to the contrary that 150 employees were let go and being bought out by SoE the next day. Idk, it doesn't sit right with me.
"May 15, 2007 San Diego, CA – Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that it has completed a transaction to purchase key assets of Sigil Games Online, Inc. Through the deal, SOE now owns Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil’s tentpole property, a highly-successful massively multiplayer online game. The Sigil acquisition also builds on SOE’s successful strategy of cultivating game development studios around the world to further boost the company’s capabilities. The announcement was made by John Smedley, President, Sony Online Entertainment."
I thiink I heard the same thing as well, regarding him not doing the firing.
but again, this could be more heresay because in some companies the managers don't do the firing, they send H.R. to do it.
So perhaps his employers said "we are laying them off so don't show up to work. Then this Andy Platter shows up and finishes it.
I'm not trying to defend him but I've seen enough firings/lay offs go down to know that what is being said here feels like half he truth.
I understand your point of view. Also, it could be that Sigil were not legally bound to compensation and/or notification if they could prove the company fell into one of the 'exempt' categories.
I still find it shady that merely a few months after the game launches saying it was a 'successful launch" and yet proves nothing to the contrary that 150 employees were let go and being bought out by SoE the next day. Idk, it doesn't sit right with me.
"May 15, 2007 San Diego, CA – Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that it has completed a transaction to purchase key assets of Sigil Games Online, Inc. Through the deal, SOE now owns Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil’s tentpole property, a highly-successful massively multiplayer online game. The Sigil acquisition also builds on SOE’s successful strategy of cultivating game development studios around the world to further boost the company’s capabilities. The announcement was made by John Smedley, President, Sony Online Entertainment."
ok so if the layoff were all of the 150 employess then they could have had a case unless Sony could prove that giving them notice would have caused them issues gaining capital, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
How many employees were laid off as there seems to be various numbers for "protected workers'. Also a company can lay people off:
"Unforeseeable business circumstance; natural disaster; company reasonably believed giving notice would affect chances of obtaining capital or business that it was actively seeking"
"Temporary facility or completion of a particular project if employees hired with that understanding"
Probably not the latter but I can see the former.
oh I'll add this for your benefit since you wanted to be an ass:
Not an ass, just a friendly jape. I respect your posts and your insight. Apologies if it offended. As I wrote above, it's possible to be exempt, though there wouldn't be a point if no one contested it.
So how come we have only heard that 1 side? Why hasnt some other ex-Sigil employee come out and say "No. Thats not the way it happened."
No one has refuted it.
Not even McQuaid.
SO we move into the realm of even greater speculation, is that the answer?
Besides when do we ever hear of this type of thing happening in the gaming world? It's generally considered bad form to address these types of incidents publicly in a corporate structure, simply to avoid even more public lynchings.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not an ass, just a friendly jape. I respect your posts and your insight. Apologies if it offended. As I wrote above, it's possible to be exempt, though there wouldn't be a point if no one contested it.
nope, I removed it I was out f line. Thanks for your kind words and apologies on my part.
edit: I've been on hold for over an hour trying to get a cab (snowstorm here) so my neck hurts.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Not an ass, just a friendly jape. I respect your posts and your insight. Apologies if it offended. As I wrote above, it's possible to be exempt, though there wouldn't be a point if no one contested it.
nope, I removed it I was out f line. Thanks for your kind words and apologies on my part.
Not an ass, just a friendly jape. I respect your posts and your insight. Apologies if it offended. As I wrote above, it's possible to be exempt, though there wouldn't be a point if no one contested it.
nope, I removed it I was out f line. Thanks for your kind words and apologies on my part.
edit: I've been on hold for over an hour trying to get a cab (snowstorm here) so my neck hurts.
Stop that you two, you're going to make people think there's civilized people on this forum.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Not an ass, just a friendly jape. I respect your posts and your insight. Apologies if it offended. As I wrote above, it's possible to be exempt, though there wouldn't be a point if no one contested it.
nope, I removed it I was out f line. Thanks for your kind words and apologies on my part.
edit: I've been on hold for over an hour trying to get a cab (snowstorm here) so my neck hurts.
Stop that you two, you're going to make people think there's civilized people on this forum.
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs "There's a sucker born every minute" - David Hannum
After Richard Garriott and Mark Jacobs leeching Money via Kickstarter...... it was just a matter of time till Brad McQuaid smelled the $$$$ and fires up a Kickstarter to see how many suckers will be willing to throw Money at him. /shrug
I predicted this already months ago. Guess a "Told you so!" is at order.
Hmmm. I see your point.
Does that mean we will also see the likes of David Bowman and Derek Smart on KS?
Smart on KS would make my day, just for the responses to donators
Seriously though I hope this trend for old school devs milking fanboy nostalgia ends soon. Long term it helps noone...even if some of the short term results are, (against realistic expectations), good.
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs "There's a sucker born every minute" - David Hannum
After Richard Garriott and Mark Jacobs leeching Money via Kickstarter...... it was just a matter of time till Brad McQuaid smelled the $$$$ and fires up a Kickstarter to see how many suckers will be willing to throw Money at him. /shrug
I predicted this already months ago. Guess a "Told you so!" is at order.
Hmmm. I see your point.
Does that mean we will also see the likes of David Bowman and Derek Smart on KS?
Smart on KS would make my day, just for the responses to donators
Seriously though I hope this trend for old school devs milking fanboy nostalgia ends soon. Long term it helps noone...even if some of the short term results are, (against realistic expectations), good.
Well after Richard Garriott's Kickstarter game and the issue with the rich backers having total control over the game's vision and even housing (and yes, I consider people who can afford $550 for housing as very well off), I'm fairly sure that I will never be enticed by an old school dev's Kickstarter.
Comments
My point was that people cite stories they don't even know they have right.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I understand and agree. As I previously said, and of which the post you quoted was in replying to, was that I do not trust Brad enough to support his KS for how he managed the whole thing.
Have you ever worked for a large company before?
Very rarely will you find managers within large companies givnig their employees the "headss up".
Heck, in my current company which is probably one of the best companies i have ever worked for (with amazing managers) they fire people by making an early morning meeting, giving them the news and paperwork and escorting them to the curb.
In my last company I had to stand by the fired individual's desk while they cleaned it out and then escort them out.
Which I hated. Luckily they knew I was being instructed to do so.
In a friend's former companyy they would invite the entire department to a meeting except the individual to be fired and then put him in a different meeting, info, firing, etc and then security woudl escort the person out.
I'm not saying that Brad was innocent or that the company folding was or wasn't his fault.
But if he let the entire company go then I can see it going down that way.
I suppose you could have a rogue manager who takes a more human approach. Heck, in my last company they laid off 11 people, I was one, and our manager was great about it. But he took a big chance as the instructions were to have us leave as soon as the info was given. He knew we weren't disgruntled so he allowed us to go at our own pace.
This is a part of life. Just like in some states you don't have to give notice, you can just quit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That I can't blame anyone for, if you can't trust a guy based on past products, there's no fault in being unable to support him financially blindly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have and as I said it does go on, yet it is still illegal. The fact they get away with it is irrelevant. The law is also different between a single firing and a mass firing. If no one then decides to fight for their rights and go along citing 'It's just a part of life' then so be it.
My point is still because of this I will not give my money to someone i feel condoned or enacted this behavior towards his employees.
From what I understand, McQuaid didnt even do the actual firing. In fact he didnt even show up.
He sent some poor lacky that no-one knew named Andy Platter to do his dirty work.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
wait, it's illegal to lay people off? That's the first I heard of this.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For mass layoffs WITHOUT a notice yes it is.
http://www2.calaborfed.org/userfiles/doc/2010/legislative/WARN_Comparison.pdf
As it is stated, it is modeled after the WARN (Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification) a federal law.
“The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go.”
? Dr. Seuss, I Can Read With My Eyes Shut!
Hope it helped
Which really could mean a number of things considering human nature. The devil is in the details as always. Which we have none of outside of heated accounts.
It could have simply been a scenario of, BM being in a meeting with the suits passing word along on a blackberry to his assistant manager or something like that, if I place myself in the whistle-blowers shoes at the time, the above is exactly how I'd word such events (sending his lackey), regardless of what's really going on. For all anyone knows Brad might have fought for those employees, all this has become is a game of telephone.
A company got dissolved, happens all the time, the result is a lot of disgruntled people telling their side of the story.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I thiink I heard the same thing as well, regarding him not doing the firing.
but again, this could be more heresay because in some companies the managers don't do the firing, they send H.R. to do it.
So perhaps his employers said "we are laying them off so don't show up to work. Then this Andy Platter shows up and finishes it.
I'm not trying to defend him but I've seen enough firings/lay offs go down to know that what is being said here feels like half he truth.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
did you read it?
How many employees were laid off as there seems to be various numbers for "protected workers'. Also a company can lay people off:
"Unforeseeable business circumstance; natural disaster; company reasonably believed giving notice would affect chances of obtaining capital or business that it was actively seeking"
"Temporary facility or completion of a particular project if employees hired with that understanding"
Probably not the latter but I can see the former.
removing this too snarky and rude on my part. apologies.Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So how come we have only heard that 1 side? Why hasnt some other ex-Sigil employee come out and say "No. Thats not the way it happened."
No one has refuted it.
Not even McQuaid.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
I understand your point of view. Also, it could be that Sigil were not legally bound to compensation and/or notification if they could prove the company fell into one of the 'exempt' categories.
I still find it shady that merely a few months after the game launches saying it was a 'successful launch" and yet proves nothing to the contrary that 150 employees were let go and being bought out by SoE the next day. Idk, it doesn't sit right with me.
"May 15, 2007 San Diego, CA – Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that it has completed a transaction to purchase key assets of Sigil Games Online, Inc. Through the deal, SOE now owns Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil’s tentpole property, a highly-successful massively multiplayer online game. The Sigil acquisition also builds on SOE’s successful strategy of cultivating game development studios around the world to further boost the company’s capabilities. The announcement was made by John Smedley, President, Sony Online Entertainment."
-found here http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=9555
and here http://www.vginterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216 and many many more sites of that time.
ok so if the layoff were all of the 150 employess then they could have had a case unless Sony could prove that giving them notice would have caused them issues gaining capital, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Not an ass, just a friendly jape. I respect your posts and your insight. Apologies if it offended. As I wrote above, it's possible to be exempt, though there wouldn't be a point if no one contested it.
SO we move into the realm of even greater speculation, is that the answer?
Besides when do we ever hear of this type of thing happening in the gaming world? It's generally considered bad form to address these types of incidents publicly in a corporate structure, simply to avoid even more public lynchings.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
nope, I removed it I was out f line. Thanks for your kind words and apologies on my part.
edit: I've been on hold for over an hour trying to get a cab (snowstorm here) so my neck hurts.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Stop that you two, you're going to make people think there's civilized people on this forum.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
What? Where? The nerve of us...
Smart on KS would make my day, just for the responses to donators
Seriously though I hope this trend for old school devs milking fanboy nostalgia ends soon. Long term it helps noone...even if some of the short term results are, (against realistic expectations), good.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
Well after Richard Garriott's Kickstarter game and the issue with the rich backers having total control over the game's vision and even housing (and yes, I consider people who can afford $550 for housing as very well off), I'm fairly sure that I will never be enticed by an old school dev's Kickstarter.
Smile