I think you can strike a nice balance between risk and reward. If you're doing a mainstream game then you can't punish players too hard for playing the core content (like questing) but you can increase the risk in certain situations. Certain dungeons and battlegrounds could offer better rewards but be a lot riskier to play for example. You could make zones where the mobs are tougher and where if you die you lose your gear or some xp but if you succeed there you are rewarded with greater things, faster.
I bet you people would flock to these areas and not complain as long as there was an alternative for all the people who didn't want to put in the effort
The problem is that those that choose not to tackle the more difficult content would complain that its too difficult and they only have 1 hour to play that day and it ruin their experience.
Then the developers would dump down the content so that everyone of any skill level could tackle the content, therefore destroying the concept of having difficult content in the first place.
I believe that was what happened to WOW dungeons if I remember correctly.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Originally posted by Grrl Hypocrites. You will play all those games regardless you say in this forum or anywhere else. Hype will always get to you and the fact stays the same as long as I live - everyone will always come back to these kind of games. Period. /end
That's terrible logic, I really hope you are being sarcastic...otherwise....
MMOs have always been easy. If you want challenging games which require skill, tactics and/or strategy, MMOs are not for you. MMOs are just mindless grind (which virtually takes 0 skill) to collect items and increase numbers on your spreadsheet...I mean character sheet. It's like a virtual world where people grind to dress up their barbies....characters!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.
As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.
Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?
Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.
Who said we aren't? I won't play AOW because the combat style is beyond my current abilities, just don't have the reflexes for action oriented combat, otherwise sounds like an interesting game.
Yet you are going to play ESO lol which is a semi action combat system and more so than Age Of Wulin?
I am however playing a freeshard of DAOC reset to 2003 ruleset, and there is very little hand holding there, penalties for dying, etc, and I'm having more fun the past 7 or 8 months than in the past 9 years, EVE not withstanding.
Many other posters here are playing titles such as Vangard, or nothing at all, due to the dearth of more challenging and well built titles.
"Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if i were a child"
This is the title of the thread and it's simply not true, if the OP was playing these games he wouldn't be making such untrue statements.
So again he has no one to blame but himself for playing hand holding MMO's.
As for Vanguard, been playing since beta( nearly 7 years) i have 5 level 55 characters and numerous other level characters.
Age Of Wulin has tab targeting and also non targeting combat for AOE, it's not really action combat.
You really should give the game a go if it's just the combat that worries you.
It's easy to make the association. "These players" = "All our players".
Lolz. Yeah, some peeps on the forums might give you an impression your clientele "aint all that bright, son." But I've been trying to give corps/devs the benefit of doubt and assume they think smart people will forgive them because they're making tutorials for the preadolescents just joining the gaming community. Marketing has always put the youth first because the young always outnumber their elders via reproduction ratio.
Given the amount of whining, whinging, and general kindergarten behavior that goes on in very nearly any MMO (or, for that matter, video game) discussion, would it really be surprising if devs saw most players as (emotional) children and treated them as such?
But, to answer the OP's question; a) It isn't holding your hand as if you were a child, it's holding your hand as if you were a newbie -- a distinction that appears to escape many, and b) it holds your hand as if you were a newbie because it assumes you are, that you aren't just means you aren't the target market.
You'd think that little chunk of reality, and the reasons for it, would be obvious to most of those around here by now.
Apparently not.
Most people haven't played eleventy-billion MMOs. Most people don't automatically understand the UI and key layout with very little effort because they've done it all before and most games use basically the same setup. Most people don't know what "buff", "debuff", "DoT", "HoT" or "agro" mean. If they've even heard of these terms they only have a vague, probably wrong, idea of what they are or how to use them in gaming. They're clueless, but the game looks fun and if they can figure out how to play it in a fun way then they'll stick around and keep throwing money at the devs.
When it stops being fun, and most non-masochists don't find frustration very fun, they'll stop throwing money at the devs and go away.
There's millions of clueless newbies who need all the handholding they can get. There's a few hundred thousand long time vets who have played so many MMOs that they can know the ins and outs of any new one they pick up in minutes just because at their base the distance between even WoW and Eve isn't all that great. Between the two, devs rightly figure it's the former that are going to make or break them, and so they design around it because they are the market.
In any meaningful sense, while it is the latter that thinks it is the market, it is the former that is the only target market that matters.
You think you are the market, and thus the game should be designed around you, but you aren't and that, in point of fact, is why it isn't designed around you.
I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.
As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.
Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?
Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.
Who said we aren't? I won't play AOW because the combat style is beyond my current abilities, just don't have the reflexes for action oriented combat, otherwise sounds like an interesting game.
I am however playing a freeshard of DAOC reset to 2003 ruleset, and there is very little hand holding there, penalties for dying, etc, and I'm having more fun the past 7 or 8 months than in the past 9 years, EVE not withstanding.
Many other posters here are playing titles such as Vangard, or nothing at all, due to the dearth of more challenging and well built titles.
That's what has kept me from AoW too. I am triple jointed (take that people who whine about being double jointed!) and it is simply too frustrating to try and get my fingers to work fast enough in games that have twitch-like or action based combat (although TERA and GW2 for some reason I can manage).
PvP in AoW requires the speed my fingers just don't possess (especially doing combos).
As for other posters, I agree on what was brought up about leveling and how it's a rush to endgame now. I don't understand why developers have this thing now where "endgame is where the real fun begins!" So I'm supposed to be bored out of my mind for the first 60 or whatever levels? That's just bad game design, period.
Pretty much every modern game outside of Paradox strategy games, EVE and Dwarf Fortress seems like this to me. I think this is the age of short attention spans. Games for adults and teenagers used to come with big printed manuals you would have to read before you could have any idea what you were doing. (You can still find many of these games on GOG) They used to take brain power and give a sense of accomplishment when you finally were able to just play competently.
Now I think many people are playing games while watching TV or messing around on their phones. They want bright flashing lights telling them how to do things and they better be able to totally understand the game mechanics within 5 minutes of picking up the game. As someone said, any real thought in these games comes many hours in when training wheels may finally come off. Problem is most people are bored with the game by that point.
I guess you all can do is play old games or the few new games fit in with the "a lot of thinking and pre-learning required" category and look for similar project to back on Kickstarter.
Oh and check this game out which is , I think, probably for better or for worse the most complicated least hand-hold-y game ever made:
Game systems should ALWAYS be clear and understandable. There is no reason for you to take three days to learn how to do something.
The accomplishment should be in slowly mastering the activity not figuring out how the activity should be done.
The only things that could take days (or more) to discover are things in the game world. An alien space ship where there is no apparent ingress, a riddle in a musty old tome in some forgotten library, etc.
But the game's "instructions" should always be clear and easy to understand.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
There are enough "gimme-now!" kiddies out there to buy up these games to satisfy their ADHD for the month and move on, that is why these games still exist.
My problem is where is the indie developer who wants to cash in on the niche crowd that wants the next old school EQ style MMORPG? They have to know there is a demand for this type of game and the only way we will get it is through indie because all the big devs are trying to cash in on this console generation. And make no mistake, there is a direct correlation between everything going cross-platform and the continuing dumbing down of MMO's. Yes I know, I am a pc elitist..../roll eyes.
And the problem is not just with MMO's, it is the Elder Scrolls types as well. Oblivion and Skyrim are so dumbed down compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it is pathetic....but boy they look pretty and you can get them for that Xbox and PS. I long for a game where I overhear someone talking about a mysterious cave to the north and it is NOT magically located on my map and a magic arrow guiding me there does NOT appear. Make me find the thing! When you lose difficulty you also lose immersion, and that is what games like this have always been about.
I think they're making the conscious decision to use shallow gameplay systems to bring players in and keep them for a time. If the game is readily accessible then people will be more likely to grasp it and hang out for a while. The alternative is something like EVE, where CCP slaps new players on the ass and tosses them out into the universe with very little direction. EVE's UI is the big barrier for whether you'll play it or not, but many people who can live with it don't even make it through the tutorials. I think more depth will keep people longer than shallow gameplay but you've got to be really good at explaining the game early on or you won't keep a high percentage of players who try out your game.
Originally posted by fivoroth MMOs have always been easy. If you want challenging games which require skill, tactics and/or strategy, MMOs are not for you. MMOs are just mindless grind (which virtually takes 0 skill) to collect items and increase numbers on your spreadsheet...I mean character sheet. It's like a virtual world where people grind to dress up their barbies....characters!
....says the guy who thinks WoW was the first MMO.
Originally posted by jdnyc Because games stopped being about challenge and became more about entertainment.
Or people started thinking that challenge and entertainment are mutually exclusive (which they shouldn't be at all)
In some cases.
Skyrim was insanely easy but was still fun and very entertaining. Some very challenging games have lacked 'fun' (although I cannot think of any by name atm I know they are out there)
BUT... Challenge (especially in an MMO) has to be there to some extent so progress means something. If we all "save the world" and "are the hero" the reality is that none of us saved the world and none of us are the heroes. If everyne wins..Nobody really wins.
I used to really enjoy being able to obtain an "in game" reputation as a healer. It was because I was good and healing was challenging (done properly) and took some knowledge, skill and fast thinking. It was good to be recognized as being "better than average" and that was primarily because there was challenge involved. Take that challenge away and I can never be "special" in the regard that people would remember me and request me "Damn dude, nice healz... Adding you to friends" or whatever... Because its hard to fail.
In an MMORPG I want balance. There has to be challenge and the more the better. That doesnt mean challenge in "figuring out the controls" or being lost in a city forever... It means content which is hard enough that it will take lots of practice and players of differing skills will be easily recognized quickly.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
It's quite simple really. Difficulty in all games have also dropped in recent years. The truth is it's easier to make the majority of people think that they're good at a game. Today the vast majority of games are designed to allow all players to be "winners".
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
It's quite simple really. Difficulty in all games have also dropped in recent years. The truth is it's easier to make the majority of people think that they're good at a game. Today the vast majority of games are designed to allow all players to be "winners".
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
Why not read a book? Enjoy an interactive fiction game? Watch a movie?
These are linear and passive activities.
Dont you want to learn your class and play as well as possible? Doesnt it make you feel good when you carry a PUG and people are commenting on your skill? When Guilds try to recruit you because you stand out a bit?
Of course it would. Yes, we are all playing for "fun" but part of that "fun" is practicing and getting better and being recognized. When I play with someone highly skilled in any game I am amazed and I think "man...I want dps like that. Have to work harder" or whatever.
Games like second life exist as purely social and "fun" outlets. MMOs are competitive (even in PVE and even in auctioneering)
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
It's quite simple really. Difficulty in all games have also dropped in recent years. The truth is it's easier to make the majority of people think that they're good at a game. Today the vast majority of games are designed to allow all players to be "winners".
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
Why not read a book? Enjoy an interactive fiction game? Watch a movie?
These are linear and passive activities.
Dont you want to learn your class and play as well as possible? Doesnt it make you feel good when you carry a PUG and people are commenting on your skill? When Guilds try to recruit you because you stand out a bit?
Of course it would. Yes, we are all playing for "fun" but part of that "fun" is practicing and getting better and being recognized. When I play with someone highly skilled in any game I am amazed and I think "man...I want dps like that. Have to work harder" or whatever.
Games like second life exist as purely social and "fun" outlets. MMOs are competitive (even in PVE and even in auctioneering)
That bit there in red is highly subjective and not universal by any means. Some people use games to fill-in something that's lacking in their RL but the vast majority are just escaping.
I get enough recognition in my RL job. I don't need to treat my gaming time as another job and look for recognition. I'm just fine being an anonymous player having a good time.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
It's quite simple really. Difficulty in all games have also dropped in recent years. The truth is it's easier to make the majority of people think that they're good at a game. Today the vast majority of games are designed to allow all players to be "winners".
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
Why not read a book? Enjoy an interactive fiction game? Watch a movie?
These are linear and passive activities.
Dont you want to learn your class and play as well as possible? Doesnt it make you feel good when you carry a PUG and people are commenting on your skill? When Guilds try to recruit you because you stand out a bit?
Of course it would. Yes, we are all playing for "fun" but part of that "fun" is practicing and getting better and being recognized. When I play with someone highly skilled in any game I am amazed and I think "man...I want dps like that. Have to work harder" or whatever.
Games like second life exist as purely social and "fun" outlets. MMOs are competitive (even in PVE and even in auctioneering)
That bit there in red is highly subjective and not universal by any means. Some people use games to fill-in something that's lacking in their RL but the vast majority are just escaping.
I get enough recognition in my RL job. I don't need to treat my gaming time as another job and look for recognition. I'm just fine being an anonymous player having a good time.
LOL- I get enough recognition in my RL job as well but I still try not to suck in a game. ..Neither do you. Regardless of this whole "I dont need recognition...I have a real life..." you are right here with the nerds in a competitive genre.
I try to be the best at whatever I do- At work, at home and in gaming. Yes, I feel pride when people comment on my skill (assuming I have it) and I recognize when I do suck and I try to get better.
I probably wouldnt want to group with you. You would keep wiping us without a care an hour into a raid because "its just entertainment guys and I am having fun" =P
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
It's quite simple really. Difficulty in all games have also dropped in recent years. The truth is it's easier to make the majority of people think that they're good at a game. Today the vast majority of games are designed to allow all players to be "winners".
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
Why not read a book? Enjoy an interactive fiction game? Watch a movie?
These are linear and passive activities.
Dont you want to learn your class and play as well as possible? Doesnt it make you feel good when you carry a PUG and people are commenting on your skill? When Guilds try to recruit you because you stand out a bit?
Of course it would. Yes, we are all playing for "fun" but part of that "fun" is practicing and getting better and being recognized. When I play with someone highly skilled in any game I am amazed and I think "man...I want dps like that. Have to work harder" or whatever.
Games like second life exist as purely social and "fun" outlets. MMOs are competitive (even in PVE and even in auctioneering)
That bit there in red is highly subjective and not universal by any means. Some people use games to fill-in something that's lacking in their RL but the vast majority are just escaping.
I get enough recognition in my RL job. I don't need to treat my gaming time as another job and look for recognition. I'm just fine being an anonymous player having a good time.
LOL- I get enough recognition in my RL job as well but I still try not to suck in a game. ..Neither do you. Regardless of this whole "I dont need recognition...I have a real life..." you are right here with the nerds in a competitive genre.
I try to be the best at whatever I do- At work, at home and in gaming. Yes, I feel pride when people comment on my skill (assuming I have it) and I recognize when I do suck and I try to get better.
I probably wouldnt want to group with you. You would keep wiping us without a care an hour into a raid because "its just entertainment guys and I am having fun" =P
You sound like me 30 years ago... I'll just leave it at that
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
It's quite simple really. Difficulty in all games have also dropped in recent years. The truth is it's easier to make the majority of people think that they're good at a game. Today the vast majority of games are designed to allow all players to be "winners".
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
Why not read a book? Enjoy an interactive fiction game? Watch a movie?
These are linear and passive activities.
Dont you want to learn your class and play as well as possible? Doesnt it make you feel good when you carry a PUG and people are commenting on your skill? When Guilds try to recruit you because you stand out a bit?
Of course it would. Yes, we are all playing for "fun" but part of that "fun" is practicing and getting better and being recognized. When I play with someone highly skilled in any game I am amazed and I think "man...I want dps like that. Have to work harder" or whatever.
Games like second life exist as purely social and "fun" outlets. MMOs are competitive (even in PVE and even in auctioneering)
That bit there in red is highly subjective and not universal by any means. Some people use games to fill-in something that's lacking in their RL but the vast majority are just escaping.
I get enough recognition in my RL job. I don't need to treat my gaming time as another job and look for recognition. I'm just fine being an anonymous player having a good time.
LOL- I get enough recognition in my RL job as well but I still try not to suck in a game. ..Neither do you. Regardless of this whole "I dont need recognition...I have a real life..." you are right here with the nerds in a competitive genre.
I try to be the best at whatever I do- At work, at home and in gaming. Yes, I feel pride when people comment on my skill (assuming I have it) and I recognize when I do suck and I try to get better.
I probably wouldnt want to group with you. You would keep wiping us without a care an hour into a raid because "its just entertainment guys and I am having fun" =P
You sound like me 30 years ago... I'll just leave it at that
There are enough "gimme-now!" kiddies out there to buy up these games to satisfy their ADHD for the month and move on, that is why these games still exist.
My problem is where is the indie developer who wants to cash in on the niche crowd that wants the next old school EQ style MMORPG? They have to know there is a demand for this type of game and the only way we will get it is through indie because all the big devs are trying to cash in on this console generation. And make no mistake, there is a direct correlation between everything going cross-platform and the continuing dumbing down of MMO's. Yes I know, I am a pc elitist..../roll eyes.
And the problem is not just with MMO's, it is the Elder Scrolls types as well. Oblivion and Skyrim are so dumbed down compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it is pathetic....but boy they look pretty and you can get them for that Xbox and PS. I long for a game where I overhear someone talking about a mysterious cave to the north and it is NOT magically located on my map and a magic arrow guiding me there does NOT appear. Make me find the thing! When you lose difficulty you also lose immersion, and that is what games like this have always been about.
It has absolutely zero to do with consoles , just wish people would accept that and stop spouting carp all over the forum.
I have a 360 controller and I use 40 skills from said controller on SWTOR a PC only MMORPG. Nuff said.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Comments
The problem is that those that choose not to tackle the more difficult content would complain that its too difficult and they only have 1 hour to play that day and it ruin their experience.
Then the developers would dump down the content so that everyone of any skill level could tackle the content, therefore destroying the concept of having difficult content in the first place.
I believe that was what happened to WOW dungeons if I remember correctly.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
That's terrible logic, I really hope you are being sarcastic...otherwise....
Maybe they've read their own forums.
It's easy to make the association. "These players" = "All our players".
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
"Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if i were a child"
This is the title of the thread and it's simply not true, if the OP was playing these games he wouldn't be making such untrue statements.
So again he has no one to blame but himself for playing hand holding MMO's.
As for Vanguard, been playing since beta( nearly 7 years) i have 5 level 55 characters and numerous other level characters.
Age Of Wulin has tab targeting and also non targeting combat for AOE, it's not really action combat.
You really should give the game a go if it's just the combat that worries you.
Combat explained http://forum.mmosite.com/thread/2/263/20120522/Introduction_to_Age_of_Wulin_Battle_System-4fbbe58bbb8d02413-1.html
Lolz. Yeah, some peeps on the forums might give you an impression your clientele "aint all that bright, son." But I've been trying to give corps/devs the benefit of doubt and assume they think smart people will forgive them because they're making tutorials for the preadolescents just joining the gaming community. Marketing has always put the youth first because the young always outnumber their elders via reproduction ratio.
That said, THEY NEED TO STOP IT.
Given the amount of whining, whinging, and general kindergarten behavior that goes on in very nearly any MMO (or, for that matter, video game) discussion, would it really be surprising if devs saw most players as (emotional) children and treated them as such?
But, to answer the OP's question; a) It isn't holding your hand as if you were a child, it's holding your hand as if you were a newbie -- a distinction that appears to escape many, and b) it holds your hand as if you were a newbie because it assumes you are, that you aren't just means you aren't the target market.
You'd think that little chunk of reality, and the reasons for it, would be obvious to most of those around here by now.
Apparently not.
Most people haven't played eleventy-billion MMOs. Most people don't automatically understand the UI and key layout with very little effort because they've done it all before and most games use basically the same setup. Most people don't know what "buff", "debuff", "DoT", "HoT" or "agro" mean. If they've even heard of these terms they only have a vague, probably wrong, idea of what they are or how to use them in gaming. They're clueless, but the game looks fun and if they can figure out how to play it in a fun way then they'll stick around and keep throwing money at the devs.
When it stops being fun, and most non-masochists don't find frustration very fun, they'll stop throwing money at the devs and go away.
There's millions of clueless newbies who need all the handholding they can get. There's a few hundred thousand long time vets who have played so many MMOs that they can know the ins and outs of any new one they pick up in minutes just because at their base the distance between even WoW and Eve isn't all that great. Between the two, devs rightly figure it's the former that are going to make or break them, and so they design around it because they are the market.
In any meaningful sense, while it is the latter that thinks it is the market, it is the former that is the only target market that matters.
You think you are the market, and thus the game should be designed around you, but you aren't and that, in point of fact, is why it isn't designed around you.
Simple as that, really.
That's what has kept me from AoW too. I am triple jointed (take that people who whine about being double jointed!) and it is simply too frustrating to try and get my fingers to work fast enough in games that have twitch-like or action based combat (although TERA and GW2 for some reason I can manage).
PvP in AoW requires the speed my fingers just don't possess (especially doing combos).
As for other posters, I agree on what was brought up about leveling and how it's a rush to endgame now. I don't understand why developers have this thing now where "endgame is where the real fun begins!" So I'm supposed to be bored out of my mind for the first 60 or whatever levels? That's just bad game design, period.
Smile
Pretty much every modern game outside of Paradox strategy games, EVE and Dwarf Fortress seems like this to me. I think this is the age of short attention spans. Games for adults and teenagers used to come with big printed manuals you would have to read before you could have any idea what you were doing. (You can still find many of these games on GOG) They used to take brain power and give a sense of accomplishment when you finally were able to just play competently.
Now I think many people are playing games while watching TV or messing around on their phones. They want bright flashing lights telling them how to do things and they better be able to totally understand the game mechanics within 5 minutes of picking up the game. As someone said, any real thought in these games comes many hours in when training wheels may finally come off. Problem is most people are bored with the game by that point.
I guess you all can do is play old games or the few new games fit in with the "a lot of thinking and pre-learning required" category and look for similar project to back on Kickstarter.
Oh and check this game out which is , I think, probably for better or for worse the most complicated least hand-hold-y game ever made:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/259060
OP, I'm going to have to disagree a bit here.
Game systems should ALWAYS be clear and understandable. There is no reason for you to take three days to learn how to do something.
The accomplishment should be in slowly mastering the activity not figuring out how the activity should be done.
The only things that could take days (or more) to discover are things in the game world. An alien space ship where there is no apparent ingress, a riddle in a musty old tome in some forgotten library, etc.
But the game's "instructions" should always be clear and easy to understand.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Or people started thinking that challenge and entertainment are mutually exclusive (which they shouldn't be at all)
There are enough "gimme-now!" kiddies out there to buy up these games to satisfy their ADHD for the month and move on, that is why these games still exist.
My problem is where is the indie developer who wants to cash in on the niche crowd that wants the next old school EQ style MMORPG? They have to know there is a demand for this type of game and the only way we will get it is through indie because all the big devs are trying to cash in on this console generation. And make no mistake, there is a direct correlation between everything going cross-platform and the continuing dumbing down of MMO's. Yes I know, I am a pc elitist..../roll eyes.
And the problem is not just with MMO's, it is the Elder Scrolls types as well. Oblivion and Skyrim are so dumbed down compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it is pathetic....but boy they look pretty and you can get them for that Xbox and PS. I long for a game where I overhear someone talking about a mysterious cave to the north and it is NOT magically located on my map and a magic arrow guiding me there does NOT appear. Make me find the thing! When you lose difficulty you also lose immersion, and that is what games like this have always been about.
....says the guy who thinks WoW was the first MMO.
In some cases.
Skyrim was insanely easy but was still fun and very entertaining. Some very challenging games have lacked 'fun' (although I cannot think of any by name atm I know they are out there)
BUT... Challenge (especially in an MMO) has to be there to some extent so progress means something. If we all "save the world" and "are the hero" the reality is that none of us saved the world and none of us are the heroes. If everyne wins..Nobody really wins.
I used to really enjoy being able to obtain an "in game" reputation as a healer. It was because I was good and healing was challenging (done properly) and took some knowledge, skill and fast thinking. It was good to be recognized as being "better than average" and that was primarily because there was challenge involved. Take that challenge away and I can never be "special" in the regard that people would remember me and request me "Damn dude, nice healz... Adding you to friends" or whatever... Because its hard to fail.
In an MMORPG I want balance. There has to be challenge and the more the better. That doesnt mean challenge in "figuring out the controls" or being lost in a city forever... It means content which is hard enough that it will take lots of practice and players of differing skills will be easily recognized quickly.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Lol. Not all players are in it to get their egos stroked and feel like winners... trite as it might sound, most of them just do it for fun. It's not like they're sponsored by Nike
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Why not read a book? Enjoy an interactive fiction game? Watch a movie?
These are linear and passive activities.
Dont you want to learn your class and play as well as possible? Doesnt it make you feel good when you carry a PUG and people are commenting on your skill? When Guilds try to recruit you because you stand out a bit?
Of course it would. Yes, we are all playing for "fun" but part of that "fun" is practicing and getting better and being recognized. When I play with someone highly skilled in any game I am amazed and I think "man...I want dps like that. Have to work harder" or whatever.
Games like second life exist as purely social and "fun" outlets. MMOs are competitive (even in PVE and even in auctioneering)
That bit there in red is highly subjective and not universal by any means. Some people use games to fill-in something that's lacking in their RL but the vast majority are just escaping.
I get enough recognition in my RL job. I don't need to treat my gaming time as another job and look for recognition. I'm just fine being an anonymous player having a good time.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
LOL- I get enough recognition in my RL job as well but I still try not to suck in a game. ..Neither do you. Regardless of this whole "I dont need recognition...I have a real life..." you are right here with the nerds in a competitive genre.
I try to be the best at whatever I do- At work, at home and in gaming. Yes, I feel pride when people comment on my skill (assuming I have it) and I recognize when I do suck and I try to get better.
I probably wouldnt want to group with you. You would keep wiping us without a care an hour into a raid because "its just entertainment guys and I am having fun" =P
You sound like me 30 years ago... I'll just leave it at that
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
LOL =P
Cheers man.
It has absolutely zero to do with consoles , just wish people would accept that and stop spouting carp all over the forum.
I have a 360 controller and I use 40 skills from said controller on SWTOR a PC only MMORPG. Nuff said.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]