Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
All you learn is the combat system. The complicated parts normal people don't care about.
Combat should be natural for the most part. The learning should be everything else. Did anyone need to be taught how to play skyrim? Does anyone need to learn how to play gta?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
All you learn is the combat system. The complicated parts normal people don't care about.
Yeh. And the other parts are not difficult .. just tedious.
I made paper maps back in Might and Magic time. It is easy, and does not make the game more fun (for me). I much prefer auto-map. Looking for stuff is not my kind of fun. Combat is.
Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
All you learn is the combat system. The complicated parts normal people don't care about.
Combat should be natural for the most part. The learning should be everything else. Did anyone need to be taught how to play skyrim? Does anyone need to learn how to play gta?
You learn more than basic combat. Also Skyrim does indeed teach you but it's a shorter less detailed experience as is the game in general compared to MMOs. It's also worth mentioning that MMOs (even free to play) have a greater stake in retaining their audiences than single player games. Rather than just sequels or expansions a MMO player is willing to pay every month or more or less depending on the MMO business model. Finally it's hard to compare different genres even though Skyrim may still be an rpg it's not really targeting the same people as the big MMORPGs like WoW.
Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
So the target audience for MMOs has sunken so low that clicking on the thing with the floating exclamation point and following the glowing arrows on the map is considered learning how to play ? lol that's awesome...
I don't appreciate being laughed at and made out to be an idiot by anyone. I'm not sure if you don't understand what I'm saying and you think I'm an idiot and that's funny, if you are trying to provoke me into responding to a conversation that I already said I don't care to have or if you are trying to reduce a very simple concept to something extremely ridiculous because you have some other motive. Either way I don't like it.
Now incase you just misunderstood me because I didn't properly explain than think of it this way. Just because the very first word you learn (mum, dad or whatever) is simple it doesn't mean the entire language is. Same is true for MMOs.
Don't take my response as a personal attack, you don't seem like an idiot.
You just confirmed my view of the current MMO genre and its attempt to appeal to the least common denominator. You are implying that after the grotesque hand holding and coddling in the beginning that MMOs become complex and challenging but I just don't see it. The learning tools, glowing arrows, sparkling quest objectives and dumbed down game play is actually the core of the game you see it all the way to max level.
I'm glad that you find the current crop of MMOs challenging, sadly many of us old timers don't.
I think people underestimate just how clueless and bad people are at these games.
Some of my friends who have been playing for years can't really use a map, forget to get the second part of a quests all the time. Die to anything that is even remotely challenging combat wise. Fail repeatedly on jumping puzzles.... the list just goes on and on. I would nerd rage and quit if I had to spend even an hour in their shoes and never play another game again.
They love games and the easier they are the better. Winning the first try every time..is the sign of a good game. When I lead the group so they don't even have to think and do everything myself and they just follow along and win...that's somehow fun for them. When I have to log off or rage over voice because they can't do something I think is simple...they don't get it but they understand and just call me " more intense " than they are.
These people are legion and they fill the games you play. They pay for the games you think you support and they are happy with what they are right now. They don't sit on forums complaining at the devs about how everything sucks..they love the games. They're not the type of people who get into fights. If a dev says this is how it is...that is how it is.
It really is the meek inheriting the earth. You come here and say everything sucks and devs are all morons...they play mmos and pay each month with a smile. Is it any wonder who the devs focused on ?
All you learn is the combat system. The complicated parts normal people don't care about.
Yeh. And the other parts are not difficult .. just tedious.
I made paper maps back in Might and Magic time. It is easy, and does not make the game more fun (for me). I much prefer auto-map. Looking for stuff is not my kind of fun. Combat is.
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
I didn't say other things were difficult to learn, just that normal people don't care about overly complicated rts combat and all the stats and modifiers that don't make any noticeable difference. The combat should be natural, all the learning should be the gameplay ect...
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
Questing done right is just presentation of an excuse to kill stuff, not unlike in SP games. Why would it be tedious if the combat is fun? If the combat is not fun, questing does not matter.
All you learn is the combat system. The complicated parts normal people don't care about.
Yeh. And the other parts are not difficult .. just tedious.
I made paper maps back in Might and Magic time. It is easy, and does not make the game more fun (for me). I much prefer auto-map. Looking for stuff is not my kind of fun. Combat is.
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
I didn't say other things were difficult to learn, just that normal people don't care about overly complicated rts combat and all the stats and modifiers that don't make any noticeable difference. The combat should be natural, all the learning should be the gameplay ect...
It does make a noticeable difference when the difficulty ramps up though.
That said you make an excellent last point. The learning should be in the gameplay. If someone is bleeding and that is causing them to fight poorly you should be able to see them bleeding and struggling to move where there cut is. I don't think we are anywhere near there yet though.
I think people underestimate just how clueless and bad people are at these games.
Some of my friends who have been playing for years can't really use a map, forget to get the second part of a quests all the time. Die to anything that is even remotely challenging combat wise. Fail repeatedly on jumping puzzles.... the list just goes on and on. I would nerd rage and quit if I had to spend even an hour in their shoes and never play another game again.
They love games and the easier they are the better. Winning the first try every time..is the sign of a good game. When I lead the group so they don't even have to think and do everything myself and they just follow along and win...that's somehow fun for them. When I have to log off or rage over voice because they can't do something I think is simple...they don't get it but they understand and just call me " more intense " than they are.
These people are legion and they fill the games you play. They pay for the games you think you support and they are happy with what they are right now. They don't sit on forums complaining at the devs about how everything sucks..they love the games. They're not the type of people who get into fights. If a dev says this is how it is...that is how it is.
It really is the meek inheriting the earth. You come here and say everything sucks and devs are all morons...they play mmos and pay each month with a smile. Is it any wonder who the devs focused on ?
Right and we were saying games like minecraft and skyrim and gta should be the direction. We were obviously wrong.
So now they have their cheap mmos, with their cheap audiences, and their brands are considered cheap.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
Questing done right is just presentation of an excuse to kill stuff, not unlike in SP games. Why would it be tedious if the combat is fun? If the combat is not fun, questing does not matter.
What does combat have to do with questing?
A reason to kill stuff was never ever needed.
All questing is is way for the devs to herd people like cattle. Just look at what you consider questing..chores with travel times. No one would do quests without the massive gamification either. It builds community instead of making solo play more desirable too.
The fun combat alone should be enough to motivate people to quest right?
Questing is an embarrassment which is why is going away. They even have arrows flashing all the way to the target.
The average age of the mmo gamer is like 30. Not 13 years old...30 something. Questing as it is currently is for children.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I think people underestimate just how clueless and bad people are at these games.
Some of my friends who have been playing for years can't really use a map, forget to get the second part of a quests all the time. Die to anything that is even remotely challenging combat wise. Fail repeatedly on jumping puzzles.... the list just goes on and on. I would nerd rage and quit if I had to spend even an hour in their shoes and never play another game again.
They love games and the easier they are the better. Winning the first try every time..is the sign of a good game. When I lead the group so they don't even have to think and do everything myself and they just follow along and win...that's somehow fun for them. When I have to log off or rage over voice because they can't do something I think is simple...they don't get it but they understand and just call me " more intense " than they are.
These people are legion and they fill the games you play. They pay for the games you think you support and they are happy with what they are right now. They don't sit on forums complaining at the devs about how everything sucks..they love the games. They're not the type of people who get into fights. If a dev says this is how it is...that is how it is.
It really is the meek inheriting the earth. You come here and say everything sucks and devs are all morons...they play mmos and pay each month with a smile. Is it any wonder who the devs focused on ?
Right and we were saying games like minecraft and skyrim and gta should be the direction. We were obviously wrong.
So now they have their cheap mmos, with their cheap audiences, and their brands are considered cheap.
Being able to express yourself by choice or building isn't really difficulty though. Minecraft is an extremely simple game and compare that with what we know about Everquest Landmark which is "the direction" that everquest is taking! Everquest! Mind you I don't think Everquest II as it was, was simple or easy, but I wouldn't say the same about WoW either and you seem to have a different view.
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
Questing done right is just presentation of an excuse to kill stuff, not unlike in SP games. Why would it be tedious if the combat is fun? If the combat is not fun, questing does not matter.
What does combat have to do with questing?
A reason to kill stuff was never ever needed.
All questing is is way for the devs to herd people like cattle. Just look at what you consider questing..chores with travel times. No one would do quests without the massive gamification either. It builds community instead of making solo play more desirable too.
The fun combat alone should be enough to motivate people to quest right?
Questing is an embarrassment which is why is going away. They even have arrows flashing all the way to the target.
The average age of the mmo gamer is like 30. Not 13 years old...30 something. Questing as it is currently is for children.
I just find it odd, that in one post you say the direction you want to see is Skyrim or GTA, and then you go on to blast features even they have (arrows).
I'd also suggest you look up what Koster feels was one of SWG's biggest problems. -hint- it's what you're saying isn't needed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think it has more to do with streamlining than dumbing down.
Let's go back to EQ - not because it's the most "hardcore" game, but only because I have a good deal of experience with it.
Early on - like in the first few expansions early - leveling meant killing mobs. Lots of mobs. There were quests (Epic 1's, coldain prayer shawl, old sebilis key, etc), they just weren't experience-rewarding, they were required for progression through the story - and they definitely were not in-your-face. And there were faction grinds (Velious had 3 opposing factions, and it wasn't uncommon to flip back and forth)
That doesn't really equate to being "harder" though. Once you've killed Flippy Darkpaw once, you've more or less proven you can do it. Requiring a player to do that 1,000 more times to earn experience/faction/rare drop is just a matter of time once you've proven you can do it once. Just because a quest giver doesn't have an ! over their head doesn't mean you aren't going to find a write-up on a fan site, or a How-To video on YouTube (which is more popular now, but didn't really exist yet back when these EQ quests were fresh).
And what do subscription games love to do? Eat time, because time = more time on subscription.
Now we see F2P really bucking this trend. Now, there isn't a reason to keep a player in game ad infintum... the focus shifts to "get while the gettin's good" -- make the game maximum impact from Moment 1, and hope to god they throw money at your cash shop for however long you can keep their attention.
So does WoW buck this trend? It does seem to be the literal elephant in the room...
No, I don't think so. It doesn't conform to my monetization theory, but I think WoW in and of itself is a large exception, rather than the rule. Early on, WoW did all the same tricks as EQ (it is, after all, an EQ clone, remember?) -- long(~ish) experience grinds, reputation grinds, currency grinds - lots of various methods meant to extend your time playing the game so they can milk the subscription.
Then Blizzard realized 2 things, that make this the exception: 1) By making the game "More accessible" (stripping out the time sinks - if you can kill one orc, you can kill 1,000, it's just a matter of time after all), you get more new players. Many more players come than would have stayed under the traditional "keep 'em in game" model. This is how WoW exploded into the multi-million player phenomena -- it really was the first to realize this aspect. 2) Inertia plays in your favor - once people establish an online community, they will tend to stick with that more strongly than they will stick with whatever content/game you create. Friends love to play with friends to a greater degree than they want to play your game.
So Blizzard leveraged the community aspect to keep their subscription model working, and have shifted towards a F2P model type gameplay.
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
Questing done right is just presentation of an excuse to kill stuff, not unlike in SP games. Why would it be tedious if the combat is fun? If the combat is not fun, questing does not matter.
What does combat have to do with questing?
A reason to kill stuff was never ever needed.
All questing is is way for the devs to herd people like cattle. Just look at what you consider questing..chores with travel times. No one would do quests without the massive gamification either. It builds community instead of making solo play more desirable too.
The fun combat alone should be enough to motivate people to quest right?
Questing is an embarrassment which is why is going away. They even have arrows flashing all the way to the target.
The average age of the mmo gamer is like 30. Not 13 years old...30 something. Questing as it is currently is for children.
I just find it odd, that in one post you say the direction you want to see is Skyrim or GTA, and then you go on to blast features even they have (arrows).
I'd also suggest you look up what Koster feels was one of SWG's biggest problems. -hint- it's what you're saying isn't needed.
If you wan't to try and make the case that questing in mmorpgs is the same go for it.
Why don't you tell me what Raph kosters said was it biggest problem? Questing? Lack of content? Too much reading?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Blizzard recent accessibility changes haven't paid off. The BC level of easy to play and hard to master seemed about right. I think the recent push of 'flex' raiding is a sign that they went a bit too far in the wrong direction.
Easy leveling is one thing- but easy raiding is another. It doesn't really work. In defense of WoW they had easily some of the best and most difficult raiding experiences ever. There might be alot of hand holding in WoW but only a tiny percentage of the player base could complete Sunwell and Ulduar - and let me tell you despite the crying a hell of alot of them wanted too.. that's how the whole casual movement started. These guys were crying about being left out.
Games are still tough - and the games are surprisingly complex. People are not rolling Fractal 79 - and they are not rolling Heroic raids in WoW. So sure maybe your wife can level easy in WoW or Final Fantasy - but they throw that stuff in there to keep the casual players entertained. Don't think you can run with Death and Taxes if you suck.. They won't put up with it. The skill level needed to compete at the highest end of these MMOs is as high as its ever been.
In truth hardcore gamers like that would roll through EQ and those games. And they would find it tedious. The problem really here is some of the players on this forum don't give these modern games a chance. They aren't REALLY getting into it. They aren't going out seeking to conquer the hardest content. They just do the easy casual oriented stuff and declare the game faceroll. But its your loss..
Games are still tough - and the games are surprisingly complex. People are not rolling Fractal 79 - and they are not rolling Heroic raids in WoW. So sure maybe your wife can level easy in WoW or Final Fantasy - but they throw that stuff in there to keep the casual players entertained. Don't think you can run with Death and Taxes if you suck.. They won't put up with it. The skill level needed to compete at the highest end of these MMOs is as high as its ever been.
If a game doesn't really capture my interest after 40 hours or so I'm not going to keep playing it since I have many games which are actually fun from start to finish.
Also, I'm not really "hardcore". I suck at twitch games. Hardcore raiding in an action-combat game is actually much too difficult for me, I admit it. Especially since I know if I fail at that I let down the whole group which I hate. So when these games make leveling so easy a 5 year old could do it and then endgame so twitch-oriented hard that I can't get into it there isn't much left for me to enjoy.
I prefer games where I can use my mind to learn things to at least somewhat make up for having slow reflexes. I'm starting to think that modern MMOs just aren't designed with people like me in mind at all, who want a mental challenge, not some kind of pseudo-sport. That's fine I guess but I miss the way CRPGs used to be when they were just trying to copy pen and paper RPGs.
Tbh i don't know why threads like this are still created. We are the minority that know what "MMORPG's" use to be like,and "MMORPG's" which stands for "Massive Multi-player online role playing games" which are advertised for the masses. No one is going to last in a game where they don't know what the they're doing and we all know if players don't last and the game doesn't thrive, dev's can't earn money.
It's pretty hard to make a game that'll be easy and yet challenging at the same time, the way tutorials have developed make it easy to understand but when things come easy it gets boring, and when things are hard many quit.
Thing about when things get boring is after a while you come back.
Tbh i don't know why threads like this are still created. We are the minority that know what "MMORPG's" use to be like,and "MMORPG's" which stands for "Massive Multi-player online role playing games" which are advertised for the masses. No one is going to last in a game where they don't know what the they're doing and we all know if players don't last and the game doesn't thrive, dev's can't earn money.
It's pretty hard to make a game that'll be easy and yet challenging at the same time, the way tutorials have developed make it easy to understand but when things come easy it gets boring, and when things are hard many quit.
Thing about when things get boring is after a while you come back.
But then minecraft comes along. A pure sandbox with no direction. A perfect example of what they are talking about, and the exact opposite happens. People from 8-80 are playing it. A new genre is born. Accessible on every platform. It's everything mmo makers claim they want with gameplay that mmo makers said no one wants.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
1. they target a younger -future- generation, not the generation which usually lasts untill they have a serious relationship+job which makes them quit.
2. younger people are very prone to influence so it is much easier to draw money from those children and through those children get access to their parents' wallets.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
Because that is how WOW does it.
And that is actually the correct answer. WOW=big time money. Easier to copy WOW and hope for big time money, then go in a totally different direction.
All you learn is the combat system. The complicated parts normal people don't care about.
Combat should be natural for the most part. The learning should be everything else. Did anyone need to be taught how to play skyrim? Does anyone need to learn how to play gta?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Yeh. And the other parts are not difficult .. just tedious.
I made paper maps back in Might and Magic time. It is easy, and does not make the game more fun (for me). I much prefer auto-map. Looking for stuff is not my kind of fun. Combat is.
You learn more than basic combat. Also Skyrim does indeed teach you but it's a shorter less detailed experience as is the game in general compared to MMOs. It's also worth mentioning that MMOs (even free to play) have a greater stake in retaining their audiences than single player games. Rather than just sequels or expansions a MMO player is willing to pay every month or more or less depending on the MMO business model. Finally it's hard to compare different genres even though Skyrim may still be an rpg it's not really targeting the same people as the big MMORPGs like WoW.
Don't take my response as a personal attack, you don't seem like an idiot.
You just confirmed my view of the current MMO genre and its attempt to appeal to the least common denominator. You are implying that after the grotesque hand holding and coddling in the beginning that MMOs become complex and challenging but I just don't see it. The learning tools, glowing arrows, sparkling quest objectives and dumbed down game play is actually the core of the game you see it all the way to max level.
I'm glad that you find the current crop of MMOs challenging, sadly many of us old timers don't.
I only need combat challenges in a game. Trying to read a map is not a challenge, it is easy and it is a chore.
I think people underestimate just how clueless and bad people are at these games.
Some of my friends who have been playing for years can't really use a map, forget to get the second part of a quests all the time. Die to anything that is even remotely challenging combat wise. Fail repeatedly on jumping puzzles.... the list just goes on and on. I would nerd rage and quit if I had to spend even an hour in their shoes and never play another game again.
They love games and the easier they are the better. Winning the first try every time..is the sign of a good game. When I lead the group so they don't even have to think and do everything myself and they just follow along and win...that's somehow fun for them. When I have to log off or rage over voice because they can't do something I think is simple...they don't get it but they understand and just call me " more intense " than they are.
These people are legion and they fill the games you play. They pay for the games you think you support and they are happy with what they are right now. They don't sit on forums complaining at the devs about how everything sucks..they love the games. They're not the type of people who get into fights. If a dev says this is how it is...that is how it is.
It really is the meek inheriting the earth. You come here and say everything sucks and devs are all morons...they play mmos and pay each month with a smile. Is it any wonder who the devs focused on ?
Right, so they introduce questing to people rather than let them kill stuff where they want. The most tedious thing in mmorpgs.
I didn't say other things were difficult to learn, just that normal people don't care about overly complicated rts combat and all the stats and modifiers that don't make any noticeable difference. The combat should be natural, all the learning should be the gameplay ect...
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Questing done right is just presentation of an excuse to kill stuff, not unlike in SP games. Why would it be tedious if the combat is fun? If the combat is not fun, questing does not matter.
It does make a noticeable difference when the difficulty ramps up though.
That said you make an excellent last point. The learning should be in the gameplay. If someone is bleeding and that is causing them to fight poorly you should be able to see them bleeding and struggling to move where there cut is. I don't think we are anywhere near there yet though.
Right and we were saying games like minecraft and skyrim and gta should be the direction. We were obviously wrong.
So now they have their cheap mmos, with their cheap audiences, and their brands are considered cheap.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
What does combat have to do with questing?
A reason to kill stuff was never ever needed.
All questing is is way for the devs to herd people like cattle. Just look at what you consider questing..chores with travel times. No one would do quests without the massive gamification either. It builds community instead of making solo play more desirable too.
The fun combat alone should be enough to motivate people to quest right?
Questing is an embarrassment which is why is going away. They even have arrows flashing all the way to the target.
The average age of the mmo gamer is like 30. Not 13 years old...30 something. Questing as it is currently is for children.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Being able to express yourself by choice or building isn't really difficulty though. Minecraft is an extremely simple game and compare that with what we know about Everquest Landmark which is "the direction" that everquest is taking! Everquest! Mind you I don't think Everquest II as it was, was simple or easy, but I wouldn't say the same about WoW either and you seem to have a different view.
I just find it odd, that in one post you say the direction you want to see is Skyrim or GTA, and then you go on to blast features even they have (arrows).
I'd also suggest you look up what Koster feels was one of SWG's biggest problems. -hint- it's what you're saying isn't needed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ahnog
Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.
There still people who don't know how to do tasks even with hand held .
So we better back to grind age ...
No , we need something to do all thing for them and they only need to watch the toons play.
Yep ... we don't need to hit buttons anymore , watch them play are best .
It not bad idea .
Doing tasks or grind mobs over and over are bore and tire , let computer do it for us and we only need to watch them and enjoy some fun.
I don't like get my hand held , but there are many want it and they had yet tired.
So that's why many (not every) MMOs try to hold they hand and get some cash .
Nothing wrong here , or millions people who play those game think so .... but not me
I think it has more to do with streamlining than dumbing down.
Let's go back to EQ - not because it's the most "hardcore" game, but only because I have a good deal of experience with it.
Early on - like in the first few expansions early - leveling meant killing mobs. Lots of mobs. There were quests (Epic 1's, coldain prayer shawl, old sebilis key, etc), they just weren't experience-rewarding, they were required for progression through the story - and they definitely were not in-your-face. And there were faction grinds (Velious had 3 opposing factions, and it wasn't uncommon to flip back and forth)
That doesn't really equate to being "harder" though. Once you've killed Flippy Darkpaw once, you've more or less proven you can do it. Requiring a player to do that 1,000 more times to earn experience/faction/rare drop is just a matter of time once you've proven you can do it once. Just because a quest giver doesn't have an ! over their head doesn't mean you aren't going to find a write-up on a fan site, or a How-To video on YouTube (which is more popular now, but didn't really exist yet back when these EQ quests were fresh).
And what do subscription games love to do? Eat time, because time = more time on subscription.
Now we see F2P really bucking this trend. Now, there isn't a reason to keep a player in game ad infintum... the focus shifts to "get while the gettin's good" -- make the game maximum impact from Moment 1, and hope to god they throw money at your cash shop for however long you can keep their attention.
So does WoW buck this trend? It does seem to be the literal elephant in the room...
No, I don't think so. It doesn't conform to my monetization theory, but I think WoW in and of itself is a large exception, rather than the rule. Early on, WoW did all the same tricks as EQ (it is, after all, an EQ clone, remember?) -- long(~ish) experience grinds, reputation grinds, currency grinds - lots of various methods meant to extend your time playing the game so they can milk the subscription.
Then Blizzard realized 2 things, that make this the exception:
1) By making the game "More accessible" (stripping out the time sinks - if you can kill one orc, you can kill 1,000, it's just a matter of time after all), you get more new players. Many more players come than would have stayed under the traditional "keep 'em in game" model. This is how WoW exploded into the multi-million player phenomena -- it really was the first to realize this aspect.
2) Inertia plays in your favor - once people establish an online community, they will tend to stick with that more strongly than they will stick with whatever content/game you create. Friends love to play with friends to a greater degree than they want to play your game.
So Blizzard leveraged the community aspect to keep their subscription model working, and have shifted towards a F2P model type gameplay.
This I will agree with. I love that old picture of the Eve learning curve.
If you wan't to try and make the case that questing in mmorpgs is the same go for it.
Why don't you tell me what Raph kosters said was it biggest problem? Questing? Lack of content? Too much reading?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Blizzard recent accessibility changes haven't paid off. The BC level of easy to play and hard to master seemed about right. I think the recent push of 'flex' raiding is a sign that they went a bit too far in the wrong direction.
Easy leveling is one thing- but easy raiding is another. It doesn't really work. In defense of WoW they had easily some of the best and most difficult raiding experiences ever. There might be alot of hand holding in WoW but only a tiny percentage of the player base could complete Sunwell and Ulduar - and let me tell you despite the crying a hell of alot of them wanted too.. that's how the whole casual movement started. These guys were crying about being left out.
Games are still tough - and the games are surprisingly complex. People are not rolling Fractal 79 - and they are not rolling Heroic raids in WoW. So sure maybe your wife can level easy in WoW or Final Fantasy - but they throw that stuff in there to keep the casual players entertained. Don't think you can run with Death and Taxes if you suck.. They won't put up with it. The skill level needed to compete at the highest end of these MMOs is as high as its ever been.
In truth hardcore gamers like that would roll through EQ and those games. And they would find it tedious. The problem really here is some of the players on this forum don't give these modern games a chance. They aren't REALLY getting into it. They aren't going out seeking to conquer the hardest content. They just do the easy casual oriented stuff and declare the game faceroll. But its your loss..
If a game doesn't really capture my interest after 40 hours or so I'm not going to keep playing it since I have many games which are actually fun from start to finish.
Also, I'm not really "hardcore". I suck at twitch games. Hardcore raiding in an action-combat game is actually much too difficult for me, I admit it. Especially since I know if I fail at that I let down the whole group which I hate. So when these games make leveling so easy a 5 year old could do it and then endgame so twitch-oriented hard that I can't get into it there isn't much left for me to enjoy.
I prefer games where I can use my mind to learn things to at least somewhat make up for having slow reflexes. I'm starting to think that modern MMOs just aren't designed with people like me in mind at all, who want a mental challenge, not some kind of pseudo-sport. That's fine I guess but I miss the way CRPGs used to be when they were just trying to copy pen and paper RPGs.
Tbh i don't know why threads like this are still created. We are the minority that know what "MMORPG's" use to be like,and "MMORPG's" which stands for "Massive Multi-player online role playing games" which are advertised for the masses. No one is going to last in a game where they don't know what the they're doing and we all know if players don't last and the game doesn't thrive, dev's can't earn money.
It's pretty hard to make a game that'll be easy and yet challenging at the same time, the way tutorials have developed make it easy to understand but when things come easy it gets boring, and when things are hard many quit.
Thing about when things get boring is after a while you come back.
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5 facts for me that show you didnt grow up:
1. You played games on a time where the whole genre started to grow
2. Most ppl didnt even know back then what internet was
3. Gamerigs were pure luxury- because a new pc costed back then a fortune
4. You still compare this time with your childhood
5. MMOs do harm your social life, people starting to recognize that
But then minecraft comes along. A pure sandbox with no direction. A perfect example of what they are talking about, and the exact opposite happens. People from 8-80 are playing it. A new genre is born. Accessible on every platform. It's everything mmo makers claim they want with gameplay that mmo makers said no one wants.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if I were a child?"
Easy: they target children.
1. they target a younger -future- generation, not the generation which usually lasts untill they have a serious relationship+job which makes them quit.
2. younger people are very prone to influence so it is much easier to draw money from those children and through those children get access to their parents' wallets.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"