Originally posted by Alders One that discourages players from using death as a means of quick travel.
Why do you care if people use it as a means for quick travel?
And to discourages players to use death as a means of quick travel is easy. Just do what GW2 does. Have way points all over. It is less convenient to use death because you waste the few seconds to die. It is much easier just call up the map and teleport.
Long travel is sufficient penalty for me. If you die in a dungeon and can't get a rez from inside, you're too far away to get back to the group. If you die PVP and can't get a rez, you're out of the battle.
Not popular I know, but I think a wipe should end a dungeon run, not just delay it a few minutes.
I think that's plenty of sting.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Heh, I'm reading all these replies to this thread and I'm laughing my butt off. There is no perfect death penalty. Seriously 98% of the MMORPG world dislike any form of death penalty. Here are some examples of games with their crazy death penalties that aren't even played anymore :
-Crazy high repair bills, to the point where players get fed up of not being able to repair to enjoy the game and just quits on to something else.
-High EXP penalty, those games where at a certain point you need 24 hours of heavy grinding just to up 5% but when you die you lose 10%, another rage quit.
- Full drop on death, so you died and dropped everything and trying very hard to recover your stuff, but you took to long and someone took off with it. Another rage quit.
The point of a MMORPG is to have fun and not having to worry on stupid details like death. You died? good for you, just spawn and get back in to action. We already live our lives in a shitty world, I don't need no freaking MMO with "realistic" death penalties. "Hardcore" mode is so overrated compared to conventional game play, I fail to see why Devs even waste their time on it.
To show my point, make EVE-Online without death penalties, I guarantee it's population will increase 500% within the end of the year 2014.
The best MMO with the "best" death penalty I can think of are PlanetSide 1 and 2 and they aren't even RPG's. Making a MMO"RPG" with any sort of death penalty is just asking for trouble. I'm pretty sure you put one great game with a death penalty Vs a Bieber concert live on TV, 95% will take the Bieber concert. Death penalties on a MMORPG are not welcomed.
Also keep in mind, most hardcore gamers from the 90's were at school with a lot of spare time, today most of us are busy with work and family, so MOST of those hardcore gamers of the 90's have become casual gamers who don't have time to screw around death penalties.
Heh, I'm reading all these replies to this thread and I'm laughing my butt off. There is no perfect death penalty. Seriously 98% of the MMORPG world dislike any form of death penalty. Here are some examples of games with their crazy death penalties that aren't even played anymore :
-Crazy high repair bills, to the point where players get fed up of not being able to repair to enjoy the game and just quits on to something else.
-High EXP penalty, those games where at a certain point you need 24 hours of heavy grinding just to up 5% but when you die you lose 10%, another rage quit.
- Full drop on death, so you died and dropped everything and trying very hard to recover your stuff, but you took to long and someone took off with it. Another rage quit.
The point of a MMORPG is to have fun and not having to worry on stupid details like death. You died? good for you, just spawn and get back in to action. We already live our lives in a shitty world, I don't need no freaking MMO with "realistic" death penalties. "Hardcore" mode is so overrated compared to conventional game play, I fail to see why Devs even waste their time on it.
To show my point, make EVE-Online without death penalties, I guarantee it's population will increase 500% within the end of the year 2014.
The best MMO with the "best" death penalty I can think of are PlanetSide 1 and 2 and they aren't even RPG's. Making a MMO"RPG" with any sort of death penalty is just asking for trouble. I'm pretty sure you put one great game with a death penalty Vs a Bieber concert live on TV, 95% will take the Bieber concert. Death penalties on a MMORPG are not welcomed.
Also keep in mind, most hardcore gamers from the 90's were at school with a lot of spare time, today most of us are busy with work and family, so MOST of those hardcore gamers of the 90's have become casual gamers who don't have time to screw around death penalties.
Interesting point of view. I think CCP should totally consider removing all Dp from EVE to prove you right.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
One of the more interesting death penalties I played in my younger days was on a Mac only RPG where if you died you had two choices.
1. Have a Scroll of Resurrection in your bags before you died (they were difficult to find and expensive to buy).
2. Your soul popped up in hell, which was a randomly generated maze made out of fire which you had to navigate until you reached the devil. Upon finding the devil, you have to fight and win to get back in the game.
Failing both of those, your character was dead. Of course, as you got farther in the game this became less of an issue because you could afford the scrolls more easily.
But even then, and through any and all iterations of death penalties, I have never felt a game was improved because of it's death penalty. However, there are many that were worse for it.
Gear damage and having to come back is a good enough penalty for me. I think what a lot of modern MMO makers figured out is that people want to spend less time dead and more time fighting.
Now if you're making a more hardcore MMO, with more traditional rules, then by all means throw on some XP/gear loss, maybe a tad bit of player looting (but don't let them strip the player naked of all gear/money UNLESS you are going for a truly hardcore scenario). Just don't charge a subscription and provide ways for you to live longer or rez quicker in PvE scenarios with an ingame cash shop. People may get pissed off that they died but I'm sure that you could find enough of those people willing to better their chances of survival by paying some real money. And if it only affects PvE scenarios then there should be less crying about P2W, though people most likely are going to cry anyway because it's a cash shop feature :P.
There's no "perfect" death penalty imo, but that's what I would like to see.
That's false. Any game that instituted a severe or permanent death penalty into their game, I'd quit immediately, for that reason alone. I do not play that kind of game, period. I think lots of people are the same.
Look at majority of reply's majority want ezmode, fairytale adventures with rainbows and angels, thats reality of todays gamers, its sad but thats how it is these day's.
Why do you care if people use it as a means for quick travel?
Dying in a game is essentially losing at least temporarily. It should never give a net benefit. (Hard to believe I actually have to write that).
Death while trying to achieve something is a failure. If death provides something which was your intention all along, it is not. Then it merely serves as a means to an end, which is fast travel. Players clearly have a use for it and if you don't want people suiciding to hitch a ride, they maybe you should provide with an alternative means of transportation. An option to to return to an earlier checkpoint perhaps?
Any reason along the lines of "it is supposed to hurt" is frankly stupid. There must be some other point to it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
That's false. Any game that instituted a severe or permanent death penalty into their game, I'd quit immediately, for that reason alone. I do not play that kind of game, period. I think lots of people are the same.
I think he meant "in general" which is true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
A stacking respawn rate per death and random spot nearby. Maybe a random % of coin left at corpse. If the location and coin are random the threat of a bad outcome would be an incentive.
I think most care when they die, if anything it's a matter of pride. I don't think overly harsh death penalties change that, only push the majority of people into shorter play sessions or not playing at all.
Hopefully an MMO has enough compelling content to not need hours of downtime gathering up one mistake.
I assume that everyone here would agree that there needs to be some sort of deterrent to dying in a mmorpg...
What is the perfect death penalty?
In my opinion, it is something in the neighborhood of Everquest 1...where death was very serious, and you couldn't really continue without at least "dealing" with the fact that you died....but once it was dealt with, you could continue on your merry way...
What's your perfect death penalty?
I'm one of the few that really thinks they're unnecessary, but if it must exist - it would be gear degradation.
I assume that everyone here would agree that there needs to be some sort of deterrent to dying in a mmorpg...
What is the perfect death penalty?
In my opinion, it is something in the neighborhood of Everquest 1...where death was very serious, and you couldn't really continue without at least "dealing" with the fact that you died....but once it was dealt with, you could continue on your merry way...
What's your perfect death penalty?
No penalty at all, just ressurect in place. Death penalty are just BIG ANNOYANCE, nothing more, nothing less.
That's false. Any game that instituted a severe or permanent death penalty into their game, I'd quit immediately, for that reason alone. I do not play that kind of game, period. I think lots of people are the same.
I think he meant "in general" which is true.
No, I think that if you push the death penalty in games too far, you'll lose the majority of players. That's why death penalty mechanics largely went away with old school games.
That's false. Any game that instituted a severe or permanent death penalty into their game, I'd quit immediately, for that reason alone. I do not play that kind of game, period. I think lots of people are the same.
I think he meant "in general" which is true.
No, I think that if you push the death penalty in games too far, you'll lose the majority of players. That's why death penalty mechanics largely went away with old school games.
yeah .. there is no big successful game with a harsh DP.
The only exception is D3, where perma-death is only an option.
It really depends upon too many other factors about what sort of game it is and how the other mechanics of the game work......and also how common death is expected within the game.
For me, I also like to concept that you do need to deal in some way with the fact you just died rather then completely ignore it. Since I also like games based on cooperative play.... I like the idea that getting help in some way helps mitigate some or all of the effects of death.
Something perhaps like....
Die and lose a small amount of xp and you suffer a small wound which can hinder you slightly until healed. Your spirit stays with your body awaiting resurrection for upto 20 minutes although you can depart sooner if you wish.
Get resurrected and you suffer resurrection sickness which is a moderate debuff for a short time.
Have your spirit depart from your body and you suffer a moderate xp loss (though you never Lose a level), suffer more wounds (which need to be healed), have a few items that break and a few items that get dropped by your corpse....possibly looted by mobs in the area and possibly recoverable.
Note, I prefer games that aren't gear grind oriented so loosing gear would be more akin to loosing some units in an RTS game.....ultimately just a resource/gold hit.....not loosing the +50 Sword of Uber Doom that you spent 20 hours grinding a RAID mob for. Again alot depends upon the other design features in tha game..... they have to all work together to create the sort of game experiencing your target audience will expect.
The death penalty for WoW works just fine for the type of game experience that something like WoW intends to deliver. You really have to make the different game mexchanisms/features all fit together to deliver to a cohesive experience consistent with what the chosen audience expects..... so something like I suggested, just wouldn't work if placed in a WoW type game.
Comments
Bleeding, a good death penalty includes lots of bleeding, especially from your ears.
Also, dropping lots of loot and de-leveling.
And to discourages players to use death as a means of quick travel is easy. Just do what GW2 does. Have way points all over. It is less convenient to use death because you waste the few seconds to die. It is much easier just call up the map and teleport.
Dying in a game is essentially losing at least temporarily. It should never give a net benefit. (Hard to believe I actually have to write that).
Long travel is sufficient penalty for me. If you die in a dungeon and can't get a rez from inside, you're too far away to get back to the group. If you die PVP and can't get a rez, you're out of the battle.
Not popular I know, but I think a wipe should end a dungeon run, not just delay it a few minutes.
I think that's plenty of sting.
Heh, I'm reading all these replies to this thread and I'm laughing my butt off. There is no perfect death penalty. Seriously 98% of the MMORPG world dislike any form of death penalty. Here are some examples of games with their crazy death penalties that aren't even played anymore :
-Crazy high repair bills, to the point where players get fed up of not being able to repair to enjoy the game and just quits on to something else.
-High EXP penalty, those games where at a certain point you need 24 hours of heavy grinding just to up 5% but when you die you lose 10%, another rage quit.
- Full drop on death, so you died and dropped everything and trying very hard to recover your stuff, but you took to long and someone took off with it. Another rage quit.
The point of a MMORPG is to have fun and not having to worry on stupid details like death. You died? good for you, just spawn and get back in to action. We already live our lives in a shitty world, I don't need no freaking MMO with "realistic" death penalties. "Hardcore" mode is so overrated compared to conventional game play, I fail to see why Devs even waste their time on it.
To show my point, make EVE-Online without death penalties, I guarantee it's population will increase 500% within the end of the year 2014.
The best MMO with the "best" death penalty I can think of are PlanetSide 1 and 2 and they aren't even RPG's. Making a MMO"RPG" with any sort of death penalty is just asking for trouble. I'm pretty sure you put one great game with a death penalty Vs a Bieber concert live on TV, 95% will take the Bieber concert. Death penalties on a MMORPG are not welcomed.
Also keep in mind, most hardcore gamers from the 90's were at school with a lot of spare time, today most of us are busy with work and family, so MOST of those hardcore gamers of the 90's have become casual gamers who don't have time to screw around death penalties.
Corpse runs ftw... Bring back drag corpse too.
Interesting point of view. I think CCP should totally consider removing all Dp from EVE to prove you right.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
MMOs should learn from D3. Let the players choose their death penalty .. hard core or soft core. There is no right answer for everyone.
Not winning and having to redo the encounter is enough of a dp for me.
DP adds nothing to the game IMO, nothing to immersion, nothing to realism, and certainly nothing to challenge.
One of the more interesting death penalties I played in my younger days was on a Mac only RPG where if you died you had two choices.
1. Have a Scroll of Resurrection in your bags before you died (they were difficult to find and expensive to buy).
2. Your soul popped up in hell, which was a randomly generated maze made out of fire which you had to navigate until you reached the devil. Upon finding the devil, you have to fight and win to get back in the game.
Failing both of those, your character was dead. Of course, as you got farther in the game this became less of an issue because you could afford the scrolls more easily.
But even then, and through any and all iterations of death penalties, I have never felt a game was improved because of it's death penalty. However, there are many that were worse for it.
Gear damage and having to come back is a good enough penalty for me. I think what a lot of modern MMO makers figured out is that people want to spend less time dead and more time fighting.
Now if you're making a more hardcore MMO, with more traditional rules, then by all means throw on some XP/gear loss, maybe a tad bit of player looting (but don't let them strip the player naked of all gear/money UNLESS you are going for a truly hardcore scenario). Just don't charge a subscription and provide ways for you to live longer or rez quicker in PvE scenarios with an ingame cash shop. People may get pissed off that they died but I'm sure that you could find enough of those people willing to better their chances of survival by paying some real money. And if it only affects PvE scenarios then there should be less crying about P2W, though people most likely are going to cry anyway because it's a cash shop feature :P.
There's no "perfect" death penalty imo, but that's what I would like to see.
That's false. Any game that instituted a severe or permanent death penalty into their game, I'd quit immediately, for that reason alone. I do not play that kind of game, period. I think lots of people are the same.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Wizardry Online has that.
XP lost is not good. XP dept is better, like in COH.
I loved the "dept brothers" teams :-)
Step in the arena and break the wall down
Sux...but true...
Death while trying to achieve something is a failure. If death provides something which was your intention all along, it is not. Then it merely serves as a means to an end, which is fast travel. Players clearly have a use for it and if you don't want people suiciding to hitch a ride, they maybe you should provide with an alternative means of transportation. An option to to return to an earlier checkpoint perhaps?
Any reason along the lines of "it is supposed to hurt" is frankly stupid. There must be some other point to it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think he meant "in general" which is true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think most care when they die, if anything it's a matter of pride. I don't think overly harsh death penalties change that, only push the majority of people into shorter play sessions or not playing at all.
Hopefully an MMO has enough compelling content to not need hours of downtime gathering up one mistake.
I'm one of the few that really thinks they're unnecessary, but if it must exist - it would be gear degradation.
No penalty at all, just ressurect in place. Death penalty are just BIG ANNOYANCE, nothing more, nothing less.
the perfect death penelty is nothing... no stat lost, no gear lost, no exp lost/dept.
I'm surprised i've yet see a game to where if you die, your account is banned for a week, the ban doubles if you die again after it's lifted.
No, I think that if you push the death penalty in games too far, you'll lose the majority of players. That's why death penalty mechanics largely went away with old school games.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
yeah .. there is no big successful game with a harsh DP.
The only exception is D3, where perma-death is only an option.
It really depends upon too many other factors about what sort of game it is and how the other mechanics of the game work......and also how common death is expected within the game.
For me, I also like to concept that you do need to deal in some way with the fact you just died rather then completely ignore it. Since I also like games based on cooperative play.... I like the idea that getting help in some way helps mitigate some or all of the effects of death.
Something perhaps like....
Die and lose a small amount of xp and you suffer a small wound which can hinder you slightly until healed. Your spirit stays with your body awaiting resurrection for upto 20 minutes although you can depart sooner if you wish.
Get resurrected and you suffer resurrection sickness which is a moderate debuff for a short time.
Have your spirit depart from your body and you suffer a moderate xp loss (though you never Lose a level), suffer more wounds (which need to be healed), have a few items that break and a few items that get dropped by your corpse....possibly looted by mobs in the area and possibly recoverable.
Note, I prefer games that aren't gear grind oriented so loosing gear would be more akin to loosing some units in an RTS game.....ultimately just a resource/gold hit.....not loosing the +50 Sword of Uber Doom that you spent 20 hours grinding a RAID mob for. Again alot depends upon the other design features in tha game..... they have to all work together to create the sort of game experiencing your target audience will expect.
The death penalty for WoW works just fine for the type of game experience that something like WoW intends to deliver. You really have to make the different game mexchanisms/features all fit together to deliver to a cohesive experience consistent with what the chosen audience expects..... so something like I suggested, just wouldn't work if placed in a WoW type game.