So you feel more entitled to your opinion since you're paying for something that others get for free?
If he's subbing his opinion should count to the company more than the guy who's not paying anything. Totally F2P games have whales that the company that the company will listen to more than the people not paying anything. If you're not paying anything you're easy replacable. Just the way the world is.
I have a strong feeling the biggest F2P complainers are the same guys who used to pirate all their games and are now pissed because they can't pirate the MMOs (most of them, anyway).
So you feel more entitled to your opinion since you're paying for something that others get for free?
If he's subbing his opinion should count to the company more than the guy who's not paying anything. Totally F2P games have whales that the company that the company will listen to more than the people not paying anything. If you're not paying anything you're easy replacable. Just the way the world is.
Sad, but very true.
I believe both are worth zero to the developers as history has shown.
They've always seemed focused on people who aren't playing.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by Fendel84M I can't agree more. The people who strictly want cosmetics to be sold are the ones who aren't going to spend a dime anyways.Not all systems are created equal however, and I do feel some nickel and dime you a bit more than others.
This is a good point, and I agree.
The only game where I got "pissy" was EverQuest (1 & 2) when they went F2P. Their tag line was "Play for free, the way you want." They then went on to charge for many of the classes and races. Not really "free to play the way I want to play" now, is it? I notice that they no longer have that tag line, but also dropped charging for classes and races
Otherwise, there is an overabundance of entitlement with players playing free games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The only game where I got "pissy" was EverQuest (1 & 2) when they went F2P. Their tag line was "Play for free, the way you want." They then went on to charge for many of the classes and races. Not really "free to play the way I want to play" now, is it? I notice that they no longer have that tag line, but also dropped charging for classes and races
Otherwise, there is an overabundance of entitlement with players playing free games.
i agree EQ2 was too restrictive when it first went ftp,
I think the sense of entitlement is a function of the degree to which a player buys into the publisher's PR.
One should not mistake the forest for the trees. If the MMO is just a virtual extension of the theme parks we find in the world, then we ought to realize that the same techniques the theme parks use to separate you from your money are the same techniques used in the MMO.
Everything in the theme parks (like Disneyland or the Casinos) is designed to lead you to the kiosks, the concessionary, the shop front and the cash register. In other words, you are walking around in a mall, carefully designed to look like anything but a mall.
The most disturbing thing as far as "entitlement and its discontents" is concerned is that, these days, even those people who really are entitled to more, because they buy into the experience, aren't even entitled to what they buy. If the publisher closes down the game, all the money they paid into the system counts for nothing.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Flyte27 I guess it depends on the free to play model that is being used. As much as I dislike Sony I think their free to play model is OK. Basically you can play Everquest for free and pay for additional features or you can pay monthly and have access to everything. It's a model I can live with. I just don't like when companies sell a lot of in game items for real money. Look at WoW for instance. They are thinking of selling max level characters to people soon. The main experience in an RPG is leveling, gaining new skills, and becoming more powerful. What is the point of letting people buy a character for real money? This whole idea of selling virtual items in general seems a bit money grubbing. Companies used to sell a whole product and you got everything or nothing. Everyone was equal who played the game. Now there is one person who brought the super speed unicorn or another who brought the super katana of power, etc. A game should be able to stand on it's own without needing to sell lots of virtual items. If it can't perhaps it should fail and die. Perhaps a lot of these free to play games should be dead paying the way for a new style of play, but are sticking around because of free to play. Generally I don't feel entitled to anything if I don't pay any money.
Makes the EULA kind of pointless now doesn't it? When you're able to buy max out characters for real cash. A contradiction will soon happen and there will be lawsuits from people being banned because they want to sale their characters BUT Blizzard allow people to buy maxed out characters for a fee? Sorry, but life doesn't work that way. It's a dumb move by Blizzard if they really do this.
The reward systems in MMO's also play a huge role.
The daily psychological conditioning of being rewarded after completing menial tasks contributes greatly to this entitlement.
People believe that they deserve to be rewarded for doing things that a half brain dead retarded monkey could do; blindfolded.
They believe they should be rewarded for doing almost anything. Should it surprise anyone that they believe they should be rewarded for doing.... nothing?
The reward systems in MMO's also play a huge role.
The daily psychological conditioning of being rewarded after completing menial tasks contributes greatly to this entitlement.
People believe that they deserve to be rewarded for doing things that a half brain dead retarded monkey could do; blindfolded.
They believe they should be rewarded for doing almost anything. Should it surprise anyone that they believe they should be rewarded for doing.... nothing?
True. But it's also more of gamers playing the "role" to "win".
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I think the biggest problem with the whole "self entitled" argument is that there is no set standard across F2P games. Some offer ALL the content, some block content off, some offer this feature, some charge you for it, etc. A person moving from game to game would get frustrated when they hit barriers that they have not previously encountered.
There is .. and its ridiculous , either put up or shut up .... if you arent paying , you arent entitled to open your mouth ...
And if you need to go on game forums and piss and moan about bag space and the devs want 3.00$ more for , you really need to focus on other parts of your life rather than wasting time crying about an investment in a leisure activity ....
There is .. and its ridiculous , either put up or shut up .... if you arent paying , you arent entitled to open your mouth ...
And if you need to go on game forums and piss and moan about bag space and the devs want 3.00$ more for , you really need to focus on other parts of your life rather than wasting time crying about an investment in a leisure activity ....
I think that exactly the role they're playing. Make developers decide before all the free games go back to p2p when the market stops growing.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is .. and its ridiculous , either put up or shut up .... if you arent paying , you arent entitled to open your mouth ...
Entitlement is one who believes they are entitled to more than another.
This means you.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
The gamer who complains because they are paying 15 bucks a month to (supposedly) have access to everything the game offers only to be told, "Yeah but that mount is going to cost you another 25 bucks." because there is no way to get it in the game in spite of the fact that they paid hundreds in sub fees last year....and the year before.....and the year before.....etc...etc.
or
The gamer who never, ever, under any circumstances, intends to pay a dime toward the game they are playing but then proceeds to stir up a shit storm on the forums over the fact that their game is now selling more than just cosmetics in the Item Shop?
Originally posted by Scorchien There is .. and its ridiculous , either put up or shut up .... if you arent paying , you arent entitled to open your mouth ... And if you need to go on game forums and piss and moan about bag space and the devs want 3.00$ more for , you really need to focus on other parts of your life rather than wasting time crying about an investment in a leisure activity ....
The problem with what you are saying is this, even if you do "put up" in this industry, you still have to "shut up." Even if you are paying, you still aren't entitled to open your mouth in this industry.
Because you and I both know, man, that the guy who complains about the $3.00 bag space is about as credible as the guy who pays $3,000 into a game that gets cancelled. If anything, the guy paying $3K is less credible. Because at least the guy who complains about the $3.00 bag doesn't reveal himself as a sucker and fool. The guy who pays $3K, however, gets no sympathy around these parts.
And if you don't believe me, check out the threads about CoH or SWG.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It depends on the game. Some F2P games are fairly priced. DDO, EQ, EQ2, Rift. Others are absolutely outrageous, and the core game is actually the cash shop, and not the content. Like Neverwinter, PWI, and a few others not worth mentioning.
Rift has to provide the most bang for your buck. One can essentially enjoy the entire world, and never spend a dime. Not so with DDO or the EQs.
I can't agree more. The people who strictly want cosmetics to be sold are the ones who aren't going to spend a dime anyways.
Not all systems are created equal however, and I do feel some nickel and dime you a bit more than others.
I spend more on cosmetic items in F2P games I enjoy than I typically spend on a subscription MMO. I'm no where near a "whale" those companies try to sucker in, but I'm just saying that I don't agree with your generalization at all. I don't buy power at all.
The most popular F2P (League of Legends) also happens to have the best F2P system I can think of, so I don't think it's entitlement. A lot of F2P games are low quality so they try to make money by suckering in whales instead of building a fair system where players can play on equal footing with nearly equal access to content (or at the very least a means to access that content without paying).
F2P gamers will continue want more and more free stuffs while good honest gamers will be paying the bills. Soon we'll see a real segregation of F2P from subs.
...My view is simply this, a F2P player who makes no financial contribution to a game is in no position to complain about the free content they may or may not be receiving.
A player who pays a subscription, as with all other walks of life, should experience a discernibly improved experience over a player who pays nothing.
Now don't get me wrong, if a monetization model allows a game to sell aesthetic items only, then great. But if it does not then a free player should quit complaining and move on.
As it stands the free content received by F2P players is paid for by a few whales who use the cash shop. Free players should be thankful that there are items in the cash shop other players are prepared to buy or there would be no game and no content for them to experience at all.
They are my thoughts on the subject, what do you think?
...My view is simply this, a F2P player who makes no financial contribution to a game is in no position to complain about the free content they may or may not be receiving.
A player who pays a subscription, as with all other walks of life, should experience a discernibly improved experience over a player who pays nothing.
Now don't get me wrong, if a monetization model allows a game to sell aesthetic items only, then great. But if it does not then a free player should quit complaining and move on.
As it stands the free content received by F2P players is paid for by a few whales who use the cash shop. Free players should be thankful that there are items in the cash shop other players are prepared to buy or there would be no game and no content for them to experience at all.
They are my thoughts on the subject, what do you think?
The challenge is getting it for free. Free players have made their own content in the absence of paid content. They need a game to play, and paying players are motivation.
There are too many games, and they, unlike the paying players, stick together. The paying players are concerned with themselves and sell each other out for any reward at all.
This is why you should care if crafting is removed. But you didn't.
There is no raise the price of free, just the price of the payers. And you'll pay it.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The challenge is getting it for free. Free players have made their own content in the absence of paid content. They need a game to play, and paying players are motivation.
There are too many games, and they, unlike the paying players, stick together. The paying players are concerned with themselves and sell each other out for any reward at all.
This is why you should care if crafting is removed. But you didn't.
There is no raise the price of free, just the price of the payers. And you'll pay it.
This is what we call a sweeping generalization and is largely untrue. Or to the extent that it probably includes as many if not more F2P gamers as well.
If a game is really offering a free trial which is doing everything it can to force and annoy you into subbing it's not really a free to play game. I'm not saying that's wrong but it is misleading advertising. I actually prefer sub games but if you're going to brag about your game being F2P you should at least offer a decent experience for the free players.
Star Wars and LOTRO for example could be still called sub games with extremely difficult and annoying free options. They are not "free to play" in the same way Rift or something is.
I agree that an alternative name could be used, such as free trial or some such crap, but I did not intend to argue over semantics. The fact is people who play content for free are not in a position to complain about it.
Everybody is entitled to complain, free speech and all that. They have a right to tell it like it is, even if it's just to warn other like-minded individuals. It's not like they were robbed of anything except the time they invested in the game, but still it's their time and the ways in which the game twisted their arm for cash usually aren't very well advertised in F2P games.
If they discover the game was designed to stonewall your progress from a certain level, then why wouldn't they be in a position to complain? They are people and it's not because they decided not to pay for the game, that they can't feel mistreated or lied to. Much less that they should feel obliged to keep their feelings to themselves. Some Official Forums do a decent enough job of silencing the "freeloaders", no need to extend that policy anywhere else.
You can contribute towards a game without spending money by buying cash shop items ingame cause then you give ingame currency to cs users. Given the game supports that.
Furthermore most of the people will spend money on good games sooner or later. Most often f2p games aim for that short time period of early excitement inside of a player's head. That's legit, but good f2p games build the identification and urge to buy things in the cash shop in the long run. Just look at games like Path of Exile or maybe The Secret World. PoE is doing extremely well allthough more bank space is the only gameplay affecting benefit to buy in it's cash shop. People buy that happily cause the game is very fun annd deep, even in the long run. And cosmetic transactions only make sense for players if they play a game in a long run, knowing their eyes will be pleased a long time. I'm writing this to point out that a marketing model for a f2p games doesn't have to alter gameplay and doesn't have to arise issues and unfairness because of that. You can say whatever you want - a "true" gamer (meaning those with a certain attitude towards gaming seeing is as social and likewise as competitive experience) always will feel wronged if an outside sysem messes a game system up making it obsolote for people who play for a reason, not just to kill time.
In contrast cash grabbing f2p games can't expect people to think in longer terms. The temption and excitement has to be promised, taken and satisfied right now in terms of a business model. You can tell what a game is like by looking at his cash shop.
Comments
Sad, but very true.
I have a strong feeling the biggest F2P complainers are the same guys who used to pirate all their games and are now pissed because they can't pirate the MMOs (most of them, anyway).
I believe both are worth zero to the developers as history has shown.
They've always seemed focused on people who aren't playing.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The only game where I got "pissy" was EverQuest (1 & 2) when they went F2P. Their tag line was "Play for free, the way you want." They then went on to charge for many of the classes and races. Not really "free to play the way I want to play" now, is it? I notice that they no longer have that tag line, but also dropped charging for classes and races
Otherwise, there is an overabundance of entitlement with players playing free games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
i agree EQ2 was too restrictive when it first went ftp,
but SOE removed almost all restrictions last year
EQ2 fan sites
I think the sense of entitlement is a function of the degree to which a player buys into the publisher's PR.
One should not mistake the forest for the trees. If the MMO is just a virtual extension of the theme parks we find in the world, then we ought to realize that the same techniques the theme parks use to separate you from your money are the same techniques used in the MMO.
Everything in the theme parks (like Disneyland or the Casinos) is designed to lead you to the kiosks, the concessionary, the shop front and the cash register. In other words, you are walking around in a mall, carefully designed to look like anything but a mall.
The most disturbing thing as far as "entitlement and its discontents" is concerned is that, these days, even those people who really are entitled to more, because they buy into the experience, aren't even entitled to what they buy. If the publisher closes down the game, all the money they paid into the system counts for nothing.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Makes the EULA kind of pointless now doesn't it? When you're able to buy max out characters for real cash. A contradiction will soon happen and there will be lawsuits from people being banned because they want to sale their characters BUT Blizzard allow people to buy maxed out characters for a fee? Sorry, but life doesn't work that way. It's a dumb move by Blizzard if they really do this.
The reward systems in MMO's also play a huge role.
The daily psychological conditioning of being rewarded after completing menial tasks contributes greatly to this entitlement.
People believe that they deserve to be rewarded for doing things that a half brain dead retarded monkey could do; blindfolded.
They believe they should be rewarded for doing almost anything. Should it surprise anyone that they believe they should be rewarded for doing.... nothing?
True. But it's also more of gamers playing the "role" to "win".
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
There is .. and its ridiculous , either put up or shut up .... if you arent paying , you arent entitled to open your mouth ...
And if you need to go on game forums and piss and moan about bag space and the devs want 3.00$ more for , you really need to focus on other parts of your life rather than wasting time crying about an investment in a leisure activity ....
I think that exactly the role they're playing. Make developers decide before all the free games go back to p2p when the market stops growing.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Entitlement is one who believes they are entitled to more than another.
This means you.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Entitlement?
So who is worse.
The gamer who complains because they are paying 15 bucks a month to (supposedly) have access to everything the game offers only to be told, "Yeah but that mount is going to cost you another 25 bucks." because there is no way to get it in the game in spite of the fact that they paid hundreds in sub fees last year....and the year before.....and the year before.....etc...etc.
or
The gamer who never, ever, under any circumstances, intends to pay a dime toward the game they are playing but then proceeds to stir up a shit storm on the forums over the fact that their game is now selling more than just cosmetics in the Item Shop?
Because you and I both know, man, that the guy who complains about the $3.00 bag space is about as credible as the guy who pays $3,000 into a game that gets cancelled. If anything, the guy paying $3K is less credible. Because at least the guy who complains about the $3.00 bag doesn't reveal himself as a sucker and fool. The guy who pays $3K, however, gets no sympathy around these parts.
And if you don't believe me, check out the threads about CoH or SWG.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It depends on the game. Some F2P games are fairly priced. DDO, EQ, EQ2, Rift. Others are absolutely outrageous, and the core game is actually the cash shop, and not the content. Like Neverwinter, PWI, and a few others not worth mentioning.
Rift has to provide the most bang for your buck. One can essentially enjoy the entire world, and never spend a dime. Not so with DDO or the EQs.
I spend more on cosmetic items in F2P games I enjoy than I typically spend on a subscription MMO. I'm no where near a "whale" those companies try to sucker in, but I'm just saying that I don't agree with your generalization at all. I don't buy power at all.
The most popular F2P (League of Legends) also happens to have the best F2P system I can think of, so I don't think it's entitlement. A lot of F2P games are low quality so they try to make money by suckering in whales instead of building a fair system where players can play on equal footing with nearly equal access to content (or at the very least a means to access that content without paying).
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
Yes absolutely.
Yes absolutely x 2!!!
The challenge is getting it for free. Free players have made their own content in the absence of paid content. They need a game to play, and paying players are motivation.
There are too many games, and they, unlike the paying players, stick together. The paying players are concerned with themselves and sell each other out for any reward at all.
This is why you should care if crafting is removed. But you didn't.
There is no raise the price of free, just the price of the payers. And you'll pay it.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
This is what we call a sweeping generalization and is largely untrue. Or to the extent that it probably includes as many if not more F2P gamers as well.
Everybody is entitled to complain, free speech and all that. They have a right to tell it like it is, even if it's just to warn other like-minded individuals. It's not like they were robbed of anything except the time they invested in the game, but still it's their time and the ways in which the game twisted their arm for cash usually aren't very well advertised in F2P games.
If they discover the game was designed to stonewall your progress from a certain level, then why wouldn't they be in a position to complain? They are people and it's not because they decided not to pay for the game, that they can't feel mistreated or lied to. Much less that they should feel obliged to keep their feelings to themselves. Some Official Forums do a decent enough job of silencing the "freeloaders", no need to extend that policy anywhere else.
You can contribute towards a game without spending money by buying cash shop items ingame cause then you give ingame currency to cs users. Given the game supports that.
Furthermore most of the people will spend money on good games sooner or later. Most often f2p games aim for that short time period of early excitement inside of a player's head. That's legit, but good f2p games build the identification and urge to buy things in the cash shop in the long run. Just look at games like Path of Exile or maybe The Secret World. PoE is doing extremely well allthough more bank space is the only gameplay affecting benefit to buy in it's cash shop. People buy that happily cause the game is very fun annd deep, even in the long run. And cosmetic transactions only make sense for players if they play a game in a long run, knowing their eyes will be pleased a long time. I'm writing this to point out that a marketing model for a f2p games doesn't have to alter gameplay and doesn't have to arise issues and unfairness because of that. You can say whatever you want - a "true" gamer (meaning those with a certain attitude towards gaming seeing is as social and likewise as competitive experience) always will feel wronged if an outside sysem messes a game system up making it obsolote for people who play for a reason, not just to kill time.
In contrast cash grabbing f2p games can't expect people to think in longer terms. The temption and excitement has to be promised, taken and satisfied right now in terms of a business model. You can tell what a game is like by looking at his cash shop.