Personaly I feel this defeats the purpose of playing the game as it's the journey that I enjoy
This is pretty much sums it up, rpg's are all about the journey.
This is based on the erroneous assumption that everyone enjoys the same thing. Sure, you enjoy the journey. Feel fee to level up 10 alts on the same content.
Thx, do that all the time (ok, sometimes with more than 10 alts).
As for the This is based on the erroneous assumption that everyone enjoys the same thing. part, who said that? If you'd read my post I wrote exactly that I know the trend, and the weight is at the "endgame is the real game" players. We will see less and less leveling in the future as the playerbase is keep changing, and of course everyone enjoys different things.
That's why I don't like this trend of giving away jumpstarted characters, because it's only accelerating the process above. I'd like to enjoy the leveling for at least a few more years, before mmorpg's will lose the rpg part forever and turning into lame DotA clones, with a short tutorial and then the so-called "endgame" grind right away... Sadly that's the future.
You did .. you said "rpg's are all about the journey." You did not say it is just for you. It is implied as a general statement to all RPGs. Are you re-qualifying the statement to mean that it only applies to you now?
And your logic is flawed. A game that offers an OPTION of a max level character takes nothing away. You still can level up as many alts as you like.
The selling of max characters shouldn't surprise anyone with how easy these trashy WoW clones have become. In fact, they are so easy that you mine as well start at max level when it takes less then a week to get there anyways. The genre is dying in general so I really don't care how gimmicky these companies make their games.
Our hope is not in games like Rift magically becoming good, our hope is that a decent developer eventually has the balls to make a quality sandbox, emphasis on quality.
I think it's a terrible idea , so in said games we will have complete noobs at almost max level , who do you think will get invited to a group first ? A veteran who's got there the long way or one of the free high level character players ? Anyway if the levelling experience is that bad then the game most probably isn't worth playing. It will most certainly split the community up too.
Anyway I refuse to play such MMO's and the retention rate of that next WOW expansion is going to be hilarious , can't wait for those results.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
I don't think it really matters to much in modern day MMORPGs. Most of them are so easy that the leveling process can be very boring following quest GPS from one location to the next about 100,000 times through the course of the leveling process. I'm fairly confident a monkey could level a character in today's MMORPGs.
It is a strange thing none the less to pay for a character. If you buy the game to play it then why would you pay again to not play it?
In the days of Everquest I think this would have devalued the game or destroyed it. The games was based on the difficulty of skilling up/leveling up. Not everyone was able to get a max level character or the best items. I was one of those who never got the best item as I wasn't leveling quickly or doing raids.
You did .. you said "rpg's are all about the journey." You did not say it is just for you. It is implied as a general statement to all RPGs. Are you re-qualifying the statement to mean that it only applies to you now?
And your logic is flawed. A game that offers an OPTION of a max level character takes nothing away. You still can level up as many alts as you like.
Two different things... you wrote everyone enjoys the same thing - I agree, that's an errorneous assumption, and I didn't wrote everyone is enjoying the journey part.
I wrote rpg's are all about the journey - which is a fact. Rpg (neither p'n'p nor it's c-rpg counterpart) is not about the kill-loot-levelup trinity, which that lame diablo brought into the genre. I agree that many folks enjoying that. I agree that those will be the future (sadly). But even if you put an A before it (as in a-rpg) it doesn't make them rpg games And yep, it's only imo. And a lot of old-timer rpg fans opinion as well.
The other part. I wrote I don't like this concept simply because of its long-term effect. Obviously it won't take away any existing part of the games. It will affect the design of new games, in the following years. Just as we see nowadays, check the leveling curve of this year's FF XIV ARR, Neverwinter, Defiance... Streamlined, easy and short. And that's just the beginning, sadly.
edit: sadly, from my pov of course. It's great for those who want to play only the "endgame".
You did .. you said "rpg's are all about the journey." You did not say it is just for you. It is implied as a general statement to all RPGs. Are you re-qualifying the statement to mean that it only applies to you now?
And your logic is flawed. A game that offers an OPTION of a max level character takes nothing away. You still can level up as many alts as you like.
Two different things... you wrote everyone enjoys the same thing - I agree, that's an errorneous assumption, and I didn't wrote everyone is enjoying the journey part.
I wrote rpg's are all about the journey - which is a fact. Rpg (neither p'n'p nor it's c-rpg counterpart) is not about the kill-loot-levelup trinity, which that lame diablo brought into the genre. I agree that many folks enjoying that. I agree that those will be the future (sadly). But even if you put an A before it (as in a-rpg) it doesn't make them rpg games And yep, it's only imo. And a lot of old-timer rpg fans opinion as well.
The other part. I wrote I don't like this concept simply because of its long-term effect. Obviously it won't take away any existing part of the games. It will affect the design of new games, in the following years. Just as we see nowadays, check the leveling curve of this year's FF XIV ARR, Neverwinter, Defiance... Streamlined, easy and short. And that's just the beginning, sadly.
edit: sadly, from my pov of course. It's great for those who want to play only the "endgame".
I do not think you have a final say on what RPG is about for everyone. RPG is just entertainment products .. and there is no reason why players cannot decide what they want to get out of them. And if you want to make the distinction between PnP RPG, and C-RPG, then you have to agree that we are talking about c-rpg, and mostly MMORPGs here, and not PnP. In fact, c-rpg has diverge from pnp RPG so much that pnp RPG is really irrelevant to this discussion.
Regarding the long term effect .. this topic is about the sales of max level characters ... which gives you no immediate cause for concern since it is an option.
Now in the long run, i do agree that the leveling may be streamlined, and hence you have a legitimate reason for concern, but that is another discussion.
SOE had it for years with EQII in their character bazaar without issue.
WoW's version won't be anything like EQIIs (which can be sold with epics). It's 1 character per account that could be raised to level 90, in the coming level 100 WoD expansion. Still will have to level 10 levels to get to 100. It's designed for friends to hop in with friends at the start of WoD, and not have to miss the current expansion with the rest, because they have to level for 90 levels (a much needed addition!).
I just want to pay $15 to level a few toons to that level, since raising 150 toons across 5 to 15 servers will take a l-o-n-g time!!!
You did .. you said "rpg's are all about the journey." You did not say it is just for you. It is implied as a general statement to all RPGs. Are you re-qualifying the statement to mean that it only applies to you now?
And your logic is flawed. A game that offers an OPTION of a max level character takes nothing away. You still can level up as many alts as you like.
Two different things... you wrote everyone enjoys the same thing - I agree, that's an errorneous assumption, and I didn't wrote everyone is enjoying the journey part.
I wrote rpg's are all about the journey - which is a fact. Rpg (neither p'n'p nor it's c-rpg counterpart) is not about the kill-loot-levelup trinity, which that lame diablo brought into the genre. I agree that many folks enjoying that. I agree that those will be the future (sadly). But even if you put an A before it (as in a-rpg) it doesn't make them rpg games And yep, it's only imo. And a lot of old-timer rpg fans opinion as well.
The other part. I wrote I don't like this concept simply because of its long-term effect. Obviously it won't take away any existing part of the games. It will affect the design of new games, in the following years. Just as we see nowadays, check the leveling curve of this year's FF XIV ARR, Neverwinter, Defiance... Streamlined, easy and short. And that's just the beginning, sadly.
edit: sadly, from my pov of course. It's great for those who want to play only the "endgame".
I do not think you have a final say on what RPG is about for everyone. RPG is just entertainment products .. and there is no reason why players cannot decide what they want to get out of them. And if you want to make the distinction between PnP RPG, and C-RPG, then you have to agree that we are talking about c-rpg, and mostly MMORPGs here, and not PnP. In fact, c-rpg has diverge from pnp RPG so much that pnp RPG is really irrelevant to this discussion.
Regarding the long term effect .. this topic is about the sales of max level characters ... which gives you no immediate cause for concern since it is an option.
Now in the long run, i do agree that the leveling may be streamlined, and hence you have a legitimate reason for concern, but that is another discussion.
Well, MMORPGs haven't all diverged from PnP RPGs, some still even loosely follow the D&D concepts (even if they don't follow the rulesets).
In WoW, for example, the paladin class has three sub-classes. One, the Holy paladin is a no-no within the D&D ruleset from the beginning. But, you won't find a paladin wielding a weapon with applied poison on it like a rogue, as that's a no-no for paladins. And the call for Undead paladins by the kids met the file 13 container!
D&D concepts/rulesets are a framework devs can use to base their classes and creations around, and so familiar to the RPGers since the beginning. Newer players didn't grow up on D&D and ask the "Why can't I do this or that???" questions, but for the sake of time in itself, it's a baseline that helps get games out the door before they become the "old men" in gaming. It's means tested, works, familiar and there's little need to duplicate another wheel.
o not think you have a final say on what RPG is about for everyone. RPG is just entertainment products .. and there is no reason why players cannot decide what they want to get out of them. And if you want to make the distinction between PnP RPG, and C-RPG, then you have to agree that we are talking about c-rpg, and mostly MMORPGs here, and not PnP. In fact, c-rpg has diverge from pnp RPG so much that pnp RPG is really irrelevant to this discussion.
Biggest reason I hate most modern CRPGs right there (Stuff like the Witcher is an exception because the story makes up for its RPG shortcomings)
I will always think that pen and paper RPGs and the computer RPGs that specifically set out to copy them are the only true RPGs and Blizzard becoming popular is the worst thing that ever happened to the RPG genre. Blizzard ruins game genres just like Zynga ruins games and for exactly the same reason.
At least it is good that Nari realizes he is not playing a real RPG when he boots up WoW or D3. I know he doesn't care but some people do because pen and paper games were and are awesome.
It depends on the game really. But since most games are casual it doesn't matter. You can get max level in Warcraft with time and no real dangerous work. When games were like Everquest and you had to work for months then no. Course there was a market for people to level characters up and sell them then.
o not think you have a final say on what RPG is about for everyone. RPG is just entertainment products .. and there is no reason why players cannot decide what they want to get out of them. And if you want to make the distinction between PnP RPG, and C-RPG, then you have to agree that we are talking about c-rpg, and mostly MMORPGs here, and not PnP. In fact, c-rpg has diverge from pnp RPG so much that pnp RPG is really irrelevant to this discussion.
Biggest reason I hate most modern CRPGs right there (Stuff like the Witcher is an exception because the story makes up for its RPG shortcomings)
I will always think that pen and paper RPGs and the computer RPGs that specifically set out to copy them are the only true RPGs and Blizzard becoming popular is the worst thing that ever happened to the RPG genre. Blizzard ruins game genres just like Zynga ruins games and for exactly the same reason.
At least it is good that Nari realizes he is not playing a real RPG when he boots up WoW or D3. I know he doesn't care but some people do because pen and paper games were and are awesome.
What's a real RPG, again?
That's called...life.
So, it's a misnomer to claim just because X MMO doesn't use the latest D&D ruleset (and it must because that is where it all began) it's not a RPG. Even D&D branched out to be AD&D at one time (and how I began it, under AD&D rules back in '78).
There's plenty of room to be creative in class design while still keeping within the framework (and it's needed, or the class choices would be rather dull for 40+ years). WoW's Holy paladin class, for example, is both being creative with another sub-class of a paladin, but still keeping within the black lines (or they'll be too game breaking...lol).
It bypasses and trivializes a big part of the game but I don't understand what it has to do with "fairness."
It's not like it's a new thing either: back in the early days of MMOs, there was a very active part of Ebay where high level characters could be bought and sold. There has always been a market for this.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.
It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services.
"Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
Honestly, if you need to sell Max level, there is something wrong with your game. In some ways, I do feel leveling is important, helping to teach your class and learn the game. Still, when the process is considered so boring or tedious, it might just not be working all that well. Its a shame that games don't focus on that journey so much... but at the same time i feel less inclined to that journey myself. Such heavy focus on end game for so long wore down on me and made it harder to really get into sadly.
So, it's a misnomer to claim just because X MMO doesn't use the latest D&D ruleset (and it must because that is where it all began) it's not a RPG. Even D&D branched out to be AD&D at one time (and how I began it, under AD&D rules back in '78).
There's plenty of room to be creative in class design while still keeping within the framework (and it's needed, or the class choices would be rather dull for 40+ years). WoW's Holy paladin class, for example, is both being creative with another sub-class of a paladin, but still keeping within the black lines (or they'll be too game breaking...lol).
A real RPG is one where you don't buy an almost max level character in order to grind the same hamster wheels over and over. Sure you can be creative with class mechanics (although I don't touch 4th ed. D&D because I think they went too far with it - another discussion topic) but we are not talking about class mechanics here. We're talking about the whole progression idea which is the core of what makes an RPG what it is.
o not think you have a final say on what RPG is about for everyone. RPG is just entertainment products .. and there is no reason why players cannot decide what they want to get out of them. And if you want to make the distinction between PnP RPG, and C-RPG, then you have to agree that we are talking about c-rpg, and mostly MMORPGs here, and not PnP. In fact, c-rpg has diverge from pnp RPG so much that pnp RPG is really irrelevant to this discussion.
Biggest reason I hate most modern CRPGs right there (Stuff like the Witcher is an exception because the story makes up for its RPG shortcomings)
I will always think that pen and paper RPGs and the computer RPGs that specifically set out to copy them are the only true RPGs and Blizzard becoming popular is the worst thing that ever happened to the RPG genre. Blizzard ruins game genres just like Zynga ruins games and for exactly the same reason.
At least it is good that Nari realizes he is not playing a real RPG when he boots up WoW or D3. I know he doesn't care but some people do because pen and paper games were and are awesome.
Of course i know. I use to play PnP AD&D when i was in college.
Personally, i prefer Diablo to PnP any time any day. It is really great that a company would take a concept, and innovate on it, and not just copy it.
What is "awesome" is subjective. D2 is pretty "awesome" for many people who play it for years, and probably longer than any PnP RPGs.
And again, pnp is not really relevant anyway when we discuss computer games.
OP, I don't have a problem with it for a really old game like World of Warcraft that's full of people that have leveled a hundred characters and are rightfully fed up with the low level content. Even EVE has short cuts if you want to buy a character from another player you can. For games like that it makes perfect sense. But when they start releasing new MMORPGs with the option to buy a max level character on release day then I start asking the question of why bother having a PVE leveling experience to begin with. I am working under the assumption that people want to play a game not just beat it. I don't get how you feel this somehow devalues skill or accomplishment because it's not like video games are an actual skill trade or activity outside of just training your twitch reflex or worthy of the title "sport."
If someone comes back to an old mmo and only wants to play the new ex pack I don't see the big deal in selling them a pass. It's their money and their game. They only came back to see the new stuff so ...who cares what they do.
I wouldn't really even care if they did it in a new game. Lots of people hate grinding levels and only want end game. I'm never part of the race to be first so I couldn't care less if the speedy people just buy a pass. I'd rather than then get into a dungeon with them while they try and race through it for fast xp.
They're both probably the most likely people to quite the game first anyway so might as well milk them for what they can get.
i like the illusion that I accomplish something playing mmorpgs .
I don't think the accomplishment of MMORPG progression is an illusion.
I see the pattern as: Effort-Achievement yields Reward-Progression.
Achieving Reward-Progression is no illusion, it is an accomplishment.
However, when effort-achievement can be replaced by a purchase, I think the accomplishment aspect suffers as a result. I feel it blurs the distinction between achievers and consumers.
For me personally, I'm an explorer not an achiever. The only reason I level in an MMORPG is so I can have access to more of the world. I'd much rather just explore, farm, and craft. So for me an instant level-cap character would be great...
BUT I don't play the games as intended. "You're not playing it right" I am often told. Pfft, no kidding! Just let me know when an MMORPG comes out that caters to an adventurer. You see, I don't play the game, I play in the game world. BIG difference.
So, although I didn't answer the poll because none of the answers quite fit. I don't have a problem with instant level-caps. Some want to jump right to the achievement part. Others (like me) just want to skip the leveling process.
Or maybe better yet, how about they eliminate progression completely and turn the whole game into endgame? But that's another topic.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by IndolIf someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services."Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
For a new game I would call it a very bad idea that wold smack of Pay 2 Win. For a older game not so much. MMO's don't tend to age well as the barriers to entry do nothing but increase the older the game gets. Even when developers "streamline" the leveling process the fact is that 99% of the focus developers put into the game is where the bulk of their player base is which is end game content. This means that the older the game gets the less polished the early parts of the game looks compared to the rest of it and even things like EQ2's revamp of the early content and WoW's cataclysm can only do so much.
A game should pass a milestone prior to doing something like this but I think both WoW and EQ2 have enough expansions under their belt to qualify. And keep in mind that I believe in both cases you still have to run though some levels. I know in EQ2's case it's the last 10 and I'm not sure about WoW. Your not buying a max level toon so much as a close to max level one and your gear is really not going to cut even casual end game content so your going to have to work on that as well.
I don't see the harm in purchasing a max level character if the developers are offering it. I think the real problems are when you can purchase special gear and items that gives the player an advantage (looking at mostly all F2P Asian titles). But just purchasing a max level character to either play with friends who've been playing forever or just purchasing it because you can't dedicate the time it takes to achieve max level due to real life interfering.
Originally posted by Purutzil Honestly, if you need to sell Max level, there is something wrong with your game. In some ways, I do feel leveling is important, helping to teach your class and learn the game. Still, when the process is considered so boring or tedious, it might just not be working all that well. Its a shame that games don't focus on that journey so much... but at the same time i feel less inclined to that journey myself. Such heavy focus on end game for so long wore down on me and made it harder to really get into sadly.
No.
They just realize what many have been saying for years: we want to play with our friends and family, and not at level 1, crawling to level 100.
In WoW Blizzard already had pre-leveled hero toons called Death Knights that at the start begin at level 56 (which in WotLK when they came into the game was 3/4 the way to level 80). Then we had scrolls of resurrection that leveled them to level 80 in Cata and MoP. WoD will just continue it one step further, to level 90 so family and friends can start the WoD expansion together.
So no more "I don't want to level a toon for 90 levels to just get started" excuses need apply anymore. Your friend, co-worker, brother or mailmain can join you in game at day 1 to play together.
WoW is just that type of game, you need to bring friends/family/co-workers.
Honestly, if everyone wants to skip 90% of the game's content to get to the "good stuff", you have failed gloriously as a game designer. The fact that so many games offer this as a service is a testament to how stale and outdated the MMORPG formula is at the moment.
This is so true it's not funny. If your a game designer and people want to skip 90% of your game you failed.
As for all the arguments for selling max level characters you could circumvent any need to do so with elegant game design. Like City of Heroes sidekick system so you could play with your max level friends, Guild Wars 2 PVP boost, actual dynamic content so every time you play the game it's changing and leveling up alts is always something different.
If a game is selling max level characters it's just a sellout cash grab with zero integrity that did not want to think about solutions to stop people from paying to avoid playing the game.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Personaly I feel this defeats the purpose of playing the game as it's the journey that I enjoy
This is pretty much sums it up, rpg's are all about the journey.
This is based on the erroneous assumption that everyone enjoys the same thing. Sure, you enjoy the journey. Feel fee to level up 10 alts on the same content.
There are those who enjoy end-game pvp, or pve. For them, sales of max level characters is a good thing.
It is silly to assume that every part of every MMO is entertaining to everyone. That is just not possible. This is just another way of letting people choosing which part they want to play. Choices are good.
so did it happen to pass your mind MMORPG is not for you? you sure like action games like C9, neverwinter(why I felt so dirty now...) or even the good and old battlefield or cod.
MMORPG's was always about teh journey the friends made during it, enemy or nemesis rivality btw guilds all that, and that is not even to roleplay anything, just the journey, nowadays is kids who atencion span of a bird, who want to play the game run all content (be carried to tell the truth) and cry when the devs don't let then join a intance because he can't get in a guild or make friends
Comments
You did .. you said "rpg's are all about the journey." You did not say it is just for you. It is implied as a general statement to all RPGs. Are you re-qualifying the statement to mean that it only applies to you now?
And your logic is flawed. A game that offers an OPTION of a max level character takes nothing away. You still can level up as many alts as you like.
The selling of max characters shouldn't surprise anyone with how easy these trashy WoW clones have become. In fact, they are so easy that you mine as well start at max level when it takes less then a week to get there anyways. The genre is dying in general so I really don't care how gimmicky these companies make their games.
Our hope is not in games like Rift magically becoming good, our hope is that a decent developer eventually has the balls to make a quality sandbox, emphasis on quality.
I think it's a terrible idea , so in said games we will have complete noobs at almost max level , who do you think will get invited to a group first ? A veteran who's got there the long way or one of the free high level character players ? Anyway if the levelling experience is that bad then the game most probably isn't worth playing. It will most certainly split the community up too.
Anyway I refuse to play such MMO's and the retention rate of that next WOW expansion is going to be hilarious , can't wait for those results.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
I don't think it really matters to much in modern day MMORPGs. Most of them are so easy that the leveling process can be very boring following quest GPS from one location to the next about 100,000 times through the course of the leveling process. I'm fairly confident a monkey could level a character in today's MMORPGs.
It is a strange thing none the less to pay for a character. If you buy the game to play it then why would you pay again to not play it?
In the days of Everquest I think this would have devalued the game or destroyed it. The games was based on the difficulty of skilling up/leveling up. Not everyone was able to get a max level character or the best items. I was one of those who never got the best item as I wasn't leveling quickly or doing raids.
Two different things... you wrote everyone enjoys the same thing - I agree, that's an errorneous assumption, and I didn't wrote everyone is enjoying the journey part.
I wrote rpg's are all about the journey - which is a fact. Rpg (neither p'n'p nor it's c-rpg counterpart) is not about the kill-loot-levelup trinity, which that lame diablo brought into the genre. I agree that many folks enjoying that. I agree that those will be the future (sadly). But even if you put an A before it (as in a-rpg) it doesn't make them rpg games
And yep, it's only imo. And a lot of old-timer rpg fans opinion as well.
The other part. I wrote I don't like this concept simply because of its long-term effect. Obviously it won't take away any existing part of the games. It will affect the design of new games, in the following years. Just as we see nowadays, check the leveling curve of this year's FF XIV ARR, Neverwinter, Defiance... Streamlined, easy and short. And that's just the beginning, sadly.
edit: sadly, from my pov of course. It's great for those who want to play only the "endgame".
I do not think you have a final say on what RPG is about for everyone. RPG is just entertainment products .. and there is no reason why players cannot decide what they want to get out of them. And if you want to make the distinction between PnP RPG, and C-RPG, then you have to agree that we are talking about c-rpg, and mostly MMORPGs here, and not PnP. In fact, c-rpg has diverge from pnp RPG so much that pnp RPG is really irrelevant to this discussion.
Regarding the long term effect .. this topic is about the sales of max level characters ... which gives you no immediate cause for concern since it is an option.
Now in the long run, i do agree that the leveling may be streamlined, and hence you have a legitimate reason for concern, but that is another discussion.
SOE had it for years with EQII in their character bazaar without issue.
WoW's version won't be anything like EQIIs (which can be sold with epics). It's 1 character per account that could be raised to level 90, in the coming level 100 WoD expansion. Still will have to level 10 levels to get to 100. It's designed for friends to hop in with friends at the start of WoD, and not have to miss the current expansion with the rest, because they have to level for 90 levels (a much needed addition!).
I just want to pay $15 to level a few toons to that level, since raising 150 toons across 5 to 15 servers will take a l-o-n-g time!!!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Well, MMORPGs haven't all diverged from PnP RPGs, some still even loosely follow the D&D concepts (even if they don't follow the rulesets).
In WoW, for example, the paladin class has three sub-classes. One, the Holy paladin is a no-no within the D&D ruleset from the beginning. But, you won't find a paladin wielding a weapon with applied poison on it like a rogue, as that's a no-no for paladins. And the call for Undead paladins by the kids met the file 13 container!
D&D concepts/rulesets are a framework devs can use to base their classes and creations around, and so familiar to the RPGers since the beginning. Newer players didn't grow up on D&D and ask the "Why can't I do this or that???" questions, but for the sake of time in itself, it's a baseline that helps get games out the door before they become the "old men" in gaming. It's means tested, works, familiar and there's little need to duplicate another wheel.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Biggest reason I hate most modern CRPGs right there (Stuff like the Witcher is an exception because the story makes up for its RPG shortcomings)
I will always think that pen and paper RPGs and the computer RPGs that specifically set out to copy them are the only true RPGs and Blizzard becoming popular is the worst thing that ever happened to the RPG genre. Blizzard ruins game genres just like Zynga ruins games and for exactly the same reason.
At least it is good that Nari realizes he is not playing a real RPG when he boots up WoW or D3. I know he doesn't care but some people do because pen and paper games were and are awesome.
What's a real RPG, again?
That's called...life.
So, it's a misnomer to claim just because X MMO doesn't use the latest D&D ruleset (and it must because that is where it all began) it's not a RPG. Even D&D branched out to be AD&D at one time (and how I began it, under AD&D rules back in '78).
There's plenty of room to be creative in class design while still keeping within the framework (and it's needed, or the class choices would be rather dull for 40+ years). WoW's Holy paladin class, for example, is both being creative with another sub-class of a paladin, but still keeping within the black lines (or they'll be too game breaking...lol).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
It bypasses and trivializes a big part of the game but I don't understand what it has to do with "fairness."
It's not like it's a new thing either: back in the early days of MMOs, there was a very active part of Ebay where high level characters could be bought and sold. There has always been a market for this.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.
It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services.
"Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
A real RPG is one where you don't buy an almost max level character in order to grind the same hamster wheels over and over. Sure you can be creative with class mechanics (although I don't touch 4th ed. D&D because I think they went too far with it - another discussion topic) but we are not talking about class mechanics here. We're talking about the whole progression idea which is the core of what makes an RPG what it is.
Of course i know. I use to play PnP AD&D when i was in college.
Personally, i prefer Diablo to PnP any time any day. It is really great that a company would take a concept, and innovate on it, and not just copy it.
What is "awesome" is subjective. D2 is pretty "awesome" for many people who play it for years, and probably longer than any PnP RPGs.
And again, pnp is not really relevant anyway when we discuss computer games.
OP, I don't have a problem with it for a really old game like World of Warcraft that's full of people that have leveled a hundred characters and are rightfully fed up with the low level content. Even EVE has short cuts if you want to buy a character from another player you can. For games like that it makes perfect sense. But when they start releasing new MMORPGs with the option to buy a max level character on release day then I start asking the question of why bother having a PVE leveling experience to begin with. I am working under the assumption that people want to play a game not just beat it. I don't get how you feel this somehow devalues skill or accomplishment because it's not like video games are an actual skill trade or activity outside of just training your twitch reflex or worthy of the title "sport."
If someone comes back to an old mmo and only wants to play the new ex pack I don't see the big deal in selling them a pass. It's their money and their game. They only came back to see the new stuff so ...who cares what they do.
I wouldn't really even care if they did it in a new game. Lots of people hate grinding levels and only want end game. I'm never part of the race to be first so I couldn't care less if the speedy people just buy a pass. I'd rather than then get into a dungeon with them while they try and race through it for fast xp.
They're both probably the most likely people to quite the game first anyway so might as well milk them for what they can get.
I don't think the accomplishment of MMORPG progression is an illusion.
I see the pattern as: Effort-Achievement yields Reward-Progression.
Achieving Reward-Progression is no illusion, it is an accomplishment.
However, when effort-achievement can be replaced by a purchase, I think the accomplishment aspect suffers as a result. I feel it blurs the distinction between achievers and consumers.
For me personally, I'm an explorer not an achiever. The only reason I level in an MMORPG is so I can have access to more of the world. I'd much rather just explore, farm, and craft. So for me an instant level-cap character would be great...
BUT I don't play the games as intended. "You're not playing it right" I am often told. Pfft, no kidding! Just let me know when an MMORPG comes out that caters to an adventurer. You see, I don't play the game, I play in the game world. BIG difference.
So, although I didn't answer the poll because none of the answers quite fit. I don't have a problem with instant level-caps. Some want to jump right to the achievement part. Others (like me) just want to skip the leveling process.
Or maybe better yet, how about they eliminate progression completely and turn the whole game into endgame? But that's another topic.
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
For a new game I would call it a very bad idea that wold smack of Pay 2 Win. For a older game not so much. MMO's don't tend to age well as the barriers to entry do nothing but increase the older the game gets. Even when developers "streamline" the leveling process the fact is that 99% of the focus developers put into the game is where the bulk of their player base is which is end game content. This means that the older the game gets the less polished the early parts of the game looks compared to the rest of it and even things like EQ2's revamp of the early content and WoW's cataclysm can only do so much.
A game should pass a milestone prior to doing something like this but I think both WoW and EQ2 have enough expansions under their belt to qualify. And keep in mind that I believe in both cases you still have to run though some levels. I know in EQ2's case it's the last 10 and I'm not sure about WoW. Your not buying a max level toon so much as a close to max level one and your gear is really not going to cut even casual end game content so your going to have to work on that as well.
No.
They just realize what many have been saying for years: we want to play with our friends and family, and not at level 1, crawling to level 100.
In WoW Blizzard already had pre-leveled hero toons called Death Knights that at the start begin at level 56 (which in WotLK when they came into the game was 3/4 the way to level 80). Then we had scrolls of resurrection that leveled them to level 80 in Cata and MoP. WoD will just continue it one step further, to level 90 so family and friends can start the WoD expansion together.
So no more "I don't want to level a toon for 90 levels to just get started" excuses need apply anymore. Your friend, co-worker, brother or mailmain can join you in game at day 1 to play together.
WoW is just that type of game, you need to bring friends/family/co-workers.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
This is so true it's not funny. If your a game designer and people want to skip 90% of your game you failed.
As for all the arguments for selling max level characters you could circumvent any need to do so with elegant game design. Like City of Heroes sidekick system so you could play with your max level friends, Guild Wars 2 PVP boost, actual dynamic content so every time you play the game it's changing and leveling up alts is always something different.
If a game is selling max level characters it's just a sellout cash grab with zero integrity that did not want to think about solutions to stop people from paying to avoid playing the game.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/so did it happen to pass your mind MMORPG is not for you? you sure like action games like C9, neverwinter(why I felt so dirty now...) or even the good and old battlefield or cod.
MMORPG's was always about teh journey the friends made during it, enemy or nemesis rivality btw guilds all that, and that is not even to roleplay anything, just the journey, nowadays is kids who atencion span of a bird, who want to play the game run all content (be carried to tell the truth) and cry when the devs don't let then join a intance because he can't get in a guild or make friends