Alright here is something else I want the communities opinion on is the sale of level 85 or 90 by developers fair to the community at large ?
We are seeing this more and more games offering for a price a max or near max character for a money value.
SOE and now even blizzard (soon to be )are doing a scheme like this .
Personaly I feel this defeats the purpose of playing the game as it's the journey that I enjoy, but what do you all recon , is this just another way for studios to milk us of hard earned money or is this a good thing as the studio can focus more development for +80 areas.
I am just curious personally I enjoy the ride and don't let others effect my play . As far as winning a mmorpg I don't thing I have ever won one * Laughs*
i like the illusion that I accomplish something playing mmorpgs .
It goes both way's.
like you I enjoy the journey and often take me time. Where some player might take 2 to 3 weeks to cap level I might take 3 to 5 months to reach that. Personaly I don't really care that that other person cap leveled in 2 weeks
Now there are plenty of people who have maxed several toons/classes so I can understand those type of players will welcome the pay to a cap level character.
I wouldn't really understand it if someone who has never played the game before to buy a cap level character (not sure if this is possible this easy) but it still remains each persons own decission and if that's the way some people have fun who am I do deny them those options.
I might not like that those options excists but they also never hinderd me having fun playing. And if those options do hinder me I just choose not to play that game. Perhaps I am Lucky enough to enjoy a wide variety of game.
While I would never do it myself, I don't see a problem with it. Mainly because this is nothing new, people have been buying high/max level characters practically since the beginning of MMO's. The developers are just trying to get the money players were spending on high/max level chars on Ebay. If you can't beat em, join em.
I just think it is a shame that the journey to cap is treated as an irritating obstacle these days.
And if levelling is so horrible to so many people why have them? Why not let everyone enter the world at cap/ level 0; and allow them to grind out skills, exploration, aesthetic items, equipment or whatever else. It would solve the issue of dead zones.
What is "awesome" is subjective. D2 is pretty "awesome" for many people who play it for years, and probably longer than any PnP RPGs.
And again, pnp is not really relevant anyway when we discuss computer games.
Of course, everything we write is from our own perspective. I can only say what games I enjoy and why. I have no idea what games other people like and don't really see why I should care or let it factor into my decisions of what to play. Obviously a lot of people like WoW and Diablo but that doesn't lessen my dislike for them and what they represent.
Anyway the fact that Pathfinder Online and Pillars of Eternity/Torment of Numenera recently got crowdfunded shows that at least a few people appreciate real pen and paper-based computer RPGs still
Originally posted by IndolIf someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services."Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
When a game experience is so boring that you have a built in function for skipping it, that's the developers basically saying "Yeah, this game will never be fun.... don't forget to use the cash shop lol".
I don't doubt that games are apparently coming with built in ways to avoid playing them, i'm just saying it's sad that developers see that as a legitimate option over making their games better.
Originally posted by IndolIf someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services."Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
When a game experience is so boring that you have a built in function for skipping it, that's the developers basically saying "Yeah, this game will never be fun.... don't forget to use the cash shop lol".
I don't doubt that games are apparently coming with built in ways to avoid playing them, i'm just saying it's sad that developers see that as a legitimate option over making their games better.
It's a misnomer to claim the devs made a boring game in itself if they're bypassing the leveling process. Anyone at any time can level normally if they want the adventure. But if the game design is that "end-game" is the most important, it behooves them to get enough players there fast enough.
In the beginning of a MMO the developers don't have much content to offer (think vanilla WoW in 2004). So there's harsher timesinks to keep the players busy. But as more content is introduced having the old grind prevents players from enjoying the newer content, as they need to progress through it. Paying $39/$49 for a game to waste away on the previous game content before even playing what they paid for, is a waste of not only time, money. So the grind is lowered so the player can join in with the newer content, with new limits for that expansion. This continues on for each expansion. When a game lasts as long as WoW it becomes now a problem as that model works for 3 expansions, but after 80 levels, people start balking at the time it takes to even get to the latest expansion despite the XP buffs from a level 1 toon.
Something has to give, because playing with like kind isn't fun starting at level 1 and your buddy is level 90 and has to level to 100.
Games like WoW (and I will say almost all MMOs at that) are notoriously awful at training new players in their classes anyway, especially when the devs throw up their hands on abilities and balance on anything but the last level (play the lower level battlegrounds in WoW and see the disaster of totally unbalanced gameplay below level 90!). So it's no loss if someone is instantly level 90 when WoD arrives, he won't have all his abilities to train for his class anyway (Blizzard has this hair brain scheme the player has to unlock them as he levels, and this time only 10 levels to train on).
Me, I prefer skill training over levels and specialization over being a jack of all trades master of none, but others want to brag about the "end-game" trinkets and achieves, and themepark games have to satisfy as many as possible. So be it.
so did it happen to pass your mind MMORPG is not for you? you sure like action games like C9, neverwinter(why I felt so dirty now...) or even the good and old battlefield or cod.
MMORPG's was always about teh journey the friends made during it, enemy or nemesis rivality btw guilds all that, and that is not even to roleplay anything, just the journey, nowadays is kids who atencion span of a bird, who want to play the game run all content (be carried to tell the truth) and cry when the devs don't let then join a intance because he can't get in a guild or make friends
Of course. You don't think i only play MMORPGs, do you? In fact, here is why i play *some* MMORPGs.
What is "awesome" is subjective. D2 is pretty "awesome" for many people who play it for years, and probably longer than any PnP RPGs.
And again, pnp is not really relevant anyway when we discuss computer games.
Of course, everything we write is from our own perspective. I can only say what games I enjoy and why. I have no idea what games other people like and don't really see why I should care or let it factor into my decisions of what to play. Obviously a lot of people like WoW and Diablo but that doesn't lessen my dislike for them and what they represent.
Anyway the fact that Pathfinder Online and Pillars of Eternity/Torment of Numenera recently got crowdfunded shows that at least a few people appreciate real pen and paper-based computer RPGs still
Sure .. and obviously the sales of max level is not catered to your preference, and i see nothing wrong if devs want to give choices to some of the audience that is not you. Do you?
Originally posted by IndolIf someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services."Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
When a game experience is so boring that you have a built in function for skipping it, that's the developers basically saying "Yeah, this game will never be fun.... don't forget to use the cash shop lol".
I don't doubt that games are apparently coming with built in ways to avoid playing them, i'm just saying it's sad that developers see that as a legitimate option over making their games better.
It's a misnomer to claim the devs made a boring game in itself if they're bypassing the leveling process. Anyone at any time can level normally if they want the adventure. But if the game design is that "end-game" is the most important, it behooves them to get enough players there fast enough.
In the beginning of a MMO the developers don't have much content to offer (think vanilla WoW in 2004). So there's harsher timesinks to keep the players busy. But as more content is introduced having the old grind prevents players from enjoying the newer content, as they need to progress through it. Paying $39/$49 for a game to waste away on the previous game content before even playing what they paid for, is a waste of not only time, money. So the grind is lowered so the player can join in with the newer content, with new limits for that expansion. This continues on for each expansion. When a game lasts as long as WoW it becomes now a problem as that model works for 3 expansions, but after 80 levels, people start balking at the time it takes to even get to the latest expansion despite the XP buffs from a level 1 toon.
Something has to give, because playing with like kind isn't fun starting at level 1 and your buddy is level 90 and has to level to 100.
Games like WoW (and I will say almost all MMOs at that) are notoriously awful at training new players in their classes anyway, especially when the devs throw up their hands on abilities and balance on anything but the last level (play the lower level battlegrounds in WoW and see the disaster of totally unbalanced gameplay below level 90!). So it's no loss if someone is instantly level 90 when WoD arrives, he won't have all his abilities to train for his class anyway (Blizzard has this hair brain scheme the player has to unlock them as he levels, and this time only 10 levels to train on).
Me, I prefer skill training over levels and specialization over being a jack of all trades master of none, but others want to brag about the "end-game" trinkets and achieves, and themepark games have to satisfy as many as possible. So be it.
I don't understand why people like endgame. I never enjoyed it at all. Basically you spend hours playing through the same content and you character only progresses through equipment. There are no new abilities/dungeons/areas to look forward to. All there is is grinding a few places repeatedly ad nauseam.
I'm not going to comment on the fairness of offering max level characters, as many others have pointed out, it's really irrelevant.
The greater concern is the damage it does to the community building aspects of the game, not that there's a lot of concern with that in most modern MMOs today, but this only server to make it worse.
People may recall when DAOC decided to offer people the option to create either level 20 or level 30 characters instantly on lower population servers (for free) in order to encourage balance on them. (you had to have a single level 50 1st to do this)
Most would call this change one of the bad things Mythic did to this game, as it completely destroyed the lower level game where many players, especially new players to the game interact with the veterans and get integrated into the community.
The freeshard I play on now has done away with this mechanic, along with the practice of buff botting and anything else that discourages grouping and team play.
So like most things, while there certainly are advantages to an instant max level character, there is always some downside to it, and you have to decide what is most important to the overall health of the game.
For titles that are quite aged it probably isn't much of a big deal, but I'd say if a game were to launch with this feature it would be a very bad thing.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by IndolIf someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services."Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
When a game experience is so boring that you have a built in function for skipping it, that's the developers basically saying "Yeah, this game will never be fun.... don't forget to use the cash shop lol".
I don't doubt that games are apparently coming with built in ways to avoid playing them, i'm just saying it's sad that developers see that as a legitimate option over making their games better.
It's a misnomer to claim the devs made a boring game in itself if they're bypassing the leveling process. Anyone at any time can level normally if they want the adventure. But if the game design is that "end-game" is the most important, it behooves them to get enough players there fast enough.
In the beginning of a MMO the developers don't have much content to offer (think vanilla WoW in 2004). So there's harsher timesinks to keep the players busy. But as more content is introduced having the old grind prevents players from enjoying the newer content, as they need to progress through it. Paying $39/$49 for a game to waste away on the previous game content before even playing what they paid for, is a waste of not only time, money. So the grind is lowered so the player can join in with the newer content, with new limits for that expansion. This continues on for each expansion. When a game lasts as long as WoW it becomes now a problem as that model works for 3 expansions, but after 80 levels, people start balking at the time it takes to even get to the latest expansion despite the XP buffs from a level 1 toon.
Something has to give, because playing with like kind isn't fun starting at level 1 and your buddy is level 90 and has to level to 100.
Games like WoW (and I will say almost all MMOs at that) are notoriously awful at training new players in their classes anyway, especially when the devs throw up their hands on abilities and balance on anything but the last level (play the lower level battlegrounds in WoW and see the disaster of totally unbalanced gameplay below level 90!). So it's no loss if someone is instantly level 90 when WoD arrives, he won't have all his abilities to train for his class anyway (Blizzard has this hair brain scheme the player has to unlock them as he levels, and this time only 10 levels to train on).
Me, I prefer skill training over levels and specialization over being a jack of all trades master of none, but others want to brag about the "end-game" trinkets and achieves, and themepark games have to satisfy as many as possible. So be it.
Great points.
I mean, the way WoW and most other themepark mmo's are designed is inherently flawed in the long term and a symptom of this is the fact that the content becomes increasingly less 'effective' and starts making people more and more anxious to just get it over with to the point that they just want the game to play itself. It's just not a truly sustainable design. The fact that so many people continue to play WoW is fascinating to me because you would think that after all this time people would realize how arbitrary and "Groundhog's Day" the madness of it all is. But then again, games are kind of arbitrary in and of themselves... Ah, the mysteries of life.... haha
In the end I guess we just need to keep in mind that people play games for reasons others may not understand.
I don't understand why people like endgame. I never enjoyed it at all. Basically you spend hours playing through the same content and you character only progresses through equipment. There are no new abilities/dungeons/areas to look forward to. All there is is grinding a few places repeatedly ad nauseam.
Your understanding is not required. You just need to accept that people don't like the same thing.
Originally posted by FinalFikus I don't think people should pay if it's the fault of the company. Why can't players sell levels or xp to people?
It is a free world. I doubt what you think "should" be done has any impact. The companies are free to offer whatever services. You can always choose not to play.
If there is an audience who is willing to buy whatever that is offered, more power to the companies.
I don't understand why people like endgame. I never enjoyed it at all. Basically you spend hours playing through the same content and you character only progresses through equipment. There are no new abilities/dungeons/areas to look forward to. All there is is grinding a few places repeatedly ad nauseam.
Same here as I feel the game turns into your more regular multiplayer game at end game in MMO's. It's the journey, the world feel in a MMORPG. Maybe it's because I play other games to be competitivee and want MMORPG's to be this more "believable" virtual world (fantasy/sci/fi or what ever aslong we the players can give the world it's soul due to the feature's the game has.
Same here as I feel the game turns into your more regular multiplayer game at end game in MMO's. It's the journey, the world feel in a MMORPG. Maybe it's because I play other games to be competitivee and want MMORPG's to be this more "believable" virtual world (fantasy/sci/fi or what ever aslong we the players can give the world it's soul due to the feature's the game has.
That pretty much tell you what the MMO target audience wants. i doubt many would even miss if the open world is taken away.
Sure .. and obviously the sales of max level is not catered to your preference, and i see nothing wrong if devs want to give choices to some of the audience that is not you. Do you?
Yeah, I don't even play WoW so this particular thing has zero affect on me personally but this thread is basically asking "Is this a good idea for a trend in games?" and my opinion is no it isn't.
Sure .. and obviously the sales of max level is not catered to your preference, and i see nothing wrong if devs want to give choices to some of the audience that is not you. Do you?
Yeah, I don't even play WoW so this particular thing has zero affect on me personally but this thread is basically asking "Is this a good idea for a trend in games?" and my opinion is no it isn't.
And my opinion is that it is.
And at the end of the day, both of our opinions are moot since we are not the ones who are making the decision. And for the devs who do provide the option, it is clearly a good idea from their perspective since the option costs money to implement.
Originally posted by IndolIf someone is dumb enough to pay a company money in an effort to AVOID playing their game, then by all means let them languish in their insanity.It won't be long before MMO companies begin selling their own botting services."Thank you for your $$$. You're now free to literally never play our game and yet still boast that you're "maxed out end tier platinum status". Never again will you have to interrupt your favorite pastime of watching ice skating in the other room while shoveling dorito's in your mouth in order to progress in our wonderful game. Feel pride in that, my friend."
lol
I played a MMO that has a built in bot now for level grinding. Now I see what the botters can do, legally.
Yep, F2P game as well.
So they not only don't need to charge for it, the devs offer it for "free" to level to "end-game" with.
Get with the program, games are entertainment. Some will buy winning baseball teams to manage. Some will endorse athletes and donate money for their "development". Buying levels for a toon, is no different. Some enjoy the grind, some hate it. There's plenty of room for both in a game.
When a game experience is so boring that you have a built in function for skipping it, that's the developers basically saying "Yeah, this game will never be fun.... don't forget to use the cash shop lol".
I don't doubt that games are apparently coming with built in ways to avoid playing them, i'm just saying it's sad that developers see that as a legitimate option over making their games better.
It's a misnomer to claim the devs made a boring game in itself if they're bypassing the leveling process. Anyone at any time can level normally if they want the adventure. But if the game design is that "end-game" is the most important, it behooves them to get enough players there fast enough.
In the beginning of a MMO the developers don't have much content to offer (think vanilla WoW in 2004). So there's harsher timesinks to keep the players busy. But as more content is introduced having the old grind prevents players from enjoying the newer content, as they need to progress through it. Paying $39/$49 for a game to waste away on the previous game content before even playing what they paid for, is a waste of not only time, money. So the grind is lowered so the player can join in with the newer content, with new limits for that expansion. This continues on for each expansion. When a game lasts as long as WoW it becomes now a problem as that model works for 3 expansions, but after 80 levels, people start balking at the time it takes to even get to the latest expansion despite the XP buffs from a level 1 toon.
Something has to give, because playing with like kind isn't fun starting at level 1 and your buddy is level 90 and has to level to 100.
Games like WoW (and I will say almost all MMOs at that) are notoriously awful at training new players in their classes anyway, especially when the devs throw up their hands on abilities and balance on anything but the last level (play the lower level battlegrounds in WoW and see the disaster of totally unbalanced gameplay below level 90!). So it's no loss if someone is instantly level 90 when WoD arrives, he won't have all his abilities to train for his class anyway (Blizzard has this hair brain scheme the player has to unlock them as he levels, and this time only 10 levels to train on).
Me, I prefer skill training over levels and specialization over being a jack of all trades master of none, but others want to brag about the "end-game" trinkets and achieves, and themepark games have to satisfy as many as possible. So be it.
Great points.
I mean, the way WoW and most other themepark mmo's are designed is inherently flawed in the long term and a symptom of this is the fact that the content becomes increasingly less 'effective' and starts making people more and more anxious to just get it over with to the point that they just want the game to play itself. It's just not a truly sustainable design. The fact that so many people continue to play WoW is fascinating to me because you would think that after all this time people would realize how arbitrary and "Groundhog's Day" the madness of it all is. But then again, games are kind of arbitrary in and of themselves... Ah, the mysteries of life.... haha
In the end I guess we just need to keep in mind that people play games for reasons others may not understand.
Well, games like EvE has it's own unique problems, like the most major one -- it's not a sandbox game when the developers directly influence the game for the top corps to dominate the game (e.g., ignoring the game exploit that kept them in ISK, which in other games due to fairness issues would've fixed it quickly. When Dream Paragon et al got caught for exploiting the game on the run for game firsts in WoW's Cata [and not reporting the PTR exploit they knew about]), it got fixed not ignored in contrast, and they were punished (cost them the title by a 10 day ban from the game...it should've been a permaban, since they know the rules, as Blizzard banned that raid team in WotLK for simply using Saronite bombs as their exploit).
The only way this should matter to anyone is if the game is PvP-focused. Being able to buy your way to a top tier PvP character is unfair, but for PvE it really doesn't matter.
Games that let you buy max level characters are old ones anyway so the game is already dead and in salvage mode.
I would never play a game that allows for this. But I also prefer games where leveling up is difficult and long, which is pretty rare in MMOs these days anyway.
There should be a legal argument that makes it wrong for companies to add this feature. The argument is that players invest money over time in a subscription (and time) in a virtual world where character progression is the game's goal and where your peers' development or lack thereof is a critical part of the MMO experience. There is a mutual understanding between developer and subscriber that the developer has a general obligation to keep the game free from short cuts such as exploits; a max level character is in effect an exploit. Subscribers can certainly quit their accounts but they cannot be refunded the time and money they spent along the way with the general expectation (of this kind of product) that they could enjoy the fruits of their labor in endgame alongside other likeminded and mutually time-invested players. There are damages.
The only way this should matter to anyone is if the game is PvP-focused. Being able to buy your way to a top tier PvP character is unfair, but for PvE it really doesn't matter.
How is it unfair? You have a choice to do it or not.
If you really are a pvper, do you only target players of equal gearing or do you go for the weaker enemy? If you go for the weaker enemies isn't that UNFAIR and add odds with your FAIRNESS?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by FinalFikus I don't think people should pay if it's the fault of the company. Why can't players sell levels or xp to people?
It is a free world. I doubt what you think "should" be done has any impact. The companies are free to offer whatever services. You can always choose not to play.
If there is an audience who is willing to buy whatever that is offered, more power to the companies.
You are missing the point. I don't care at all. It's not my Brand. Typically whoever goofs, is the one that pays. If they want their customers to pay for their goofs, go for it.
If you don't like what "I think", direct your doubts at the OP for asking a question rather than gauging the level of impact as "low". Ouch.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I honestly don't care what other people do with their money. If you want to buy a level capped character, knock yourself out. It literally has no effect on my life or enjoyment of the game whatsoever. Maybe I'm just old and don't understand the complaint. Does a complete stranger who you may or may not ever interact with buying a max level character somehow diminish the sense of achievement attained from doing it the "hard way" (when was the last time leveling was actually hard?)
Comments
It goes both way's.
like you I enjoy the journey and often take me time. Where some player might take 2 to 3 weeks to cap level I might take 3 to 5 months to reach that. Personaly I don't really care that that other person cap leveled in 2 weeks
Now there are plenty of people who have maxed several toons/classes so I can understand those type of players will welcome the pay to a cap level character.
I wouldn't really understand it if someone who has never played the game before to buy a cap level character (not sure if this is possible this easy) but it still remains each persons own decission and if that's the way some people have fun who am I do deny them those options.
I might not like that those options excists but they also never hinderd me having fun playing. And if those options do hinder me I just choose not to play that game. Perhaps I am Lucky enough to enjoy a wide variety of game.
I just think it is a shame that the journey to cap is treated as an irritating obstacle these days.
And if levelling is so horrible to so many people why have them? Why not let everyone enter the world at cap/ level 0; and allow them to grind out skills, exploration, aesthetic items, equipment or whatever else. It would solve the issue of dead zones.
Of course, everything we write is from our own perspective. I can only say what games I enjoy and why. I have no idea what games other people like and don't really see why I should care or let it factor into my decisions of what to play. Obviously a lot of people like WoW and Diablo but that doesn't lessen my dislike for them and what they represent.
Anyway the fact that Pathfinder Online and Pillars of Eternity/Torment of Numenera recently got crowdfunded shows that at least a few people appreciate real pen and paper-based computer RPGs still
When a game experience is so boring that you have a built in function for skipping it, that's the developers basically saying "Yeah, this game will never be fun.... don't forget to use the cash shop lol".
I don't doubt that games are apparently coming with built in ways to avoid playing them, i'm just saying it's sad that developers see that as a legitimate option over making their games better.
It's a misnomer to claim the devs made a boring game in itself if they're bypassing the leveling process. Anyone at any time can level normally if they want the adventure. But if the game design is that "end-game" is the most important, it behooves them to get enough players there fast enough.
In the beginning of a MMO the developers don't have much content to offer (think vanilla WoW in 2004). So there's harsher timesinks to keep the players busy. But as more content is introduced having the old grind prevents players from enjoying the newer content, as they need to progress through it. Paying $39/$49 for a game to waste away on the previous game content before even playing what they paid for, is a waste of not only time, money. So the grind is lowered so the player can join in with the newer content, with new limits for that expansion. This continues on for each expansion. When a game lasts as long as WoW it becomes now a problem as that model works for 3 expansions, but after 80 levels, people start balking at the time it takes to even get to the latest expansion despite the XP buffs from a level 1 toon.
Something has to give, because playing with like kind isn't fun starting at level 1 and your buddy is level 90 and has to level to 100.
Games like WoW (and I will say almost all MMOs at that) are notoriously awful at training new players in their classes anyway, especially when the devs throw up their hands on abilities and balance on anything but the last level (play the lower level battlegrounds in WoW and see the disaster of totally unbalanced gameplay below level 90!). So it's no loss if someone is instantly level 90 when WoD arrives, he won't have all his abilities to train for his class anyway (Blizzard has this hair brain scheme the player has to unlock them as he levels, and this time only 10 levels to train on).
Me, I prefer skill training over levels and specialization over being a jack of all trades master of none, but others want to brag about the "end-game" trinkets and achieves, and themepark games have to satisfy as many as possible. So be it.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Of course. You don't think i only play MMORPGs, do you? In fact, here is why i play *some* MMORPGs.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5903519/thread/393247#5903519
But more importantly, you don't get to decide what MMORPGs are about. Whatever they were about in the past can be changed, and the market decide.
Sure .. and obviously the sales of max level is not catered to your preference, and i see nothing wrong if devs want to give choices to some of the audience that is not you. Do you?
I don't understand why people like endgame. I never enjoyed it at all. Basically you spend hours playing through the same content and you character only progresses through equipment. There are no new abilities/dungeons/areas to look forward to. All there is is grinding a few places repeatedly ad nauseam.
I'm not going to comment on the fairness of offering max level characters, as many others have pointed out, it's really irrelevant.
The greater concern is the damage it does to the community building aspects of the game, not that there's a lot of concern with that in most modern MMOs today, but this only server to make it worse.
People may recall when DAOC decided to offer people the option to create either level 20 or level 30 characters instantly on lower population servers (for free) in order to encourage balance on them. (you had to have a single level 50 1st to do this)
Most would call this change one of the bad things Mythic did to this game, as it completely destroyed the lower level game where many players, especially new players to the game interact with the veterans and get integrated into the community.
The freeshard I play on now has done away with this mechanic, along with the practice of buff botting and anything else that discourages grouping and team play.
So like most things, while there certainly are advantages to an instant max level character, there is always some downside to it, and you have to decide what is most important to the overall health of the game.
For titles that are quite aged it probably isn't much of a big deal, but I'd say if a game were to launch with this feature it would be a very bad thing.
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Great points.
I mean, the way WoW and most other themepark mmo's are designed is inherently flawed in the long term and a symptom of this is the fact that the content becomes increasingly less 'effective' and starts making people more and more anxious to just get it over with to the point that they just want the game to play itself. It's just not a truly sustainable design. The fact that so many people continue to play WoW is fascinating to me because you would think that after all this time people would realize how arbitrary and "Groundhog's Day" the madness of it all is. But then again, games are kind of arbitrary in and of themselves... Ah, the mysteries of life.... haha
In the end I guess we just need to keep in mind that people play games for reasons others may not understand.
Your understanding is not required. You just need to accept that people don't like the same thing.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It is a free world. I doubt what you think "should" be done has any impact. The companies are free to offer whatever services. You can always choose not to play.
If there is an audience who is willing to buy whatever that is offered, more power to the companies.
Same here as I feel the game turns into your more regular multiplayer game at end game in MMO's. It's the journey, the world feel in a MMORPG. Maybe it's because I play other games to be competitivee and want MMORPG's to be this more "believable" virtual world (fantasy/sci/fi or what ever aslong we the players can give the world it's soul due to the feature's the game has.
That pretty much tell you what the MMO target audience wants. i doubt many would even miss if the open world is taken away.
Yeah, I don't even play WoW so this particular thing has zero affect on me personally but this thread is basically asking "Is this a good idea for a trend in games?" and my opinion is no it isn't.
And my opinion is that it is.
And at the end of the day, both of our opinions are moot since we are not the ones who are making the decision. And for the devs who do provide the option, it is clearly a good idea from their perspective since the option costs money to implement.
If the game has been around for awhile 2+ years I dont see a problem with it.
I wouldnt want it on a newly released game though.
Well, games like EvE has it's own unique problems, like the most major one -- it's not a sandbox game when the developers directly influence the game for the top corps to dominate the game (e.g., ignoring the game exploit that kept them in ISK, which in other games due to fairness issues would've fixed it quickly. When Dream Paragon et al got caught for exploiting the game on the run for game firsts in WoW's Cata [and not reporting the PTR exploit they knew about]), it got fixed not ignored in contrast, and they were punished (cost them the title by a 10 day ban from the game...it should've been a permaban, since they know the rules, as Blizzard banned that raid team in WotLK for simply using Saronite bombs as their exploit).
So no innocents here, both venues have problems.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
The only way this should matter to anyone is if the game is PvP-focused. Being able to buy your way to a top tier PvP character is unfair, but for PvE it really doesn't matter.
Games that let you buy max level characters are old ones anyway so the game is already dead and in salvage mode.
I would never play a game that allows for this. But I also prefer games where leveling up is difficult and long, which is pretty rare in MMOs these days anyway.
There should be a legal argument that makes it wrong for companies to add this feature. The argument is that players invest money over time in a subscription (and time) in a virtual world where character progression is the game's goal and where your peers' development or lack thereof is a critical part of the MMO experience. There is a mutual understanding between developer and subscriber that the developer has a general obligation to keep the game free from short cuts such as exploits; a max level character is in effect an exploit. Subscribers can certainly quit their accounts but they cannot be refunded the time and money they spent along the way with the general expectation (of this kind of product) that they could enjoy the fruits of their labor in endgame alongside other likeminded and mutually time-invested players. There are damages.
How is it unfair? You have a choice to do it or not.
If you really are a pvper, do you only target players of equal gearing or do you go for the weaker enemy? If you go for the weaker enemies isn't that UNFAIR and add odds with your FAIRNESS?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You are missing the point. I don't care at all. It's not my Brand. Typically whoever goofs, is the one that pays. If they want their customers to pay for their goofs, go for it.
If you don't like what "I think", direct your doubts at the OP for asking a question rather than gauging the level of impact as "low". Ouch.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"