The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
DAoC had a full PvE side.
If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
This.
I cant think of a better Dungeon than Darkness Falls... it could quite possibly be the best dungeon ever created.
Originally posted by Jjix Originally posted by AmjocoOriginally posted by IselinOriginally posted by AmjocoThe little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it. I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
I really dislike the term WoW clone in general, clone is for me taking something and doing a 100% copy of it. I have yet to see a game that is deserving of that particular title.
Calling something WoW wannabee sounds better to me.
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
Times change...tastes change... there seems to be a retro "back to the grind" movement at least judging by what people say they want in forum discussions.
Quests and grinds both have their place and I don't care about either absolute end of the scale. If I'm in a judging mood what I look for when deciding if I like the quest/grind balance of the PVE in a game is how viable they are relative to each other and what the rewards are like given the risk and time investment.
Some games these days make questing a must because the amount of XP and non-random useful loot you get that way is infinitely better than the alternative. But not all. There are many MMOs that strike a good balance between the two and let you quest or not to advance according to your preference.
Once you play this one you'll get a sense of where the PVE here is in that respect.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
Times change...tastes change... there seems to be a retro "back to the grind" movement at least judging by what people say they want in forum discussions.
Quests and grinds both have their place and I don't care about either absolute end of the scale. If I'm in a judging mood what I look for when deciding if I like the quest/grind balance of the PVE in a game is how viable they are relative to each other and what the rewards are like given the risk and time investment.
Some games these days make questing a must because the amount of XP and non-random useful loot you get that way is infinitely better than the alternative. But not all. There are many MMOs that strike a good balance between the two and let you quest or not to advance according to your preference.
Once you play this one you'll get a sense of where the PVE here is in that respect.
I think the "back to the grind" movement you are referring to is more of a growing fatigue with forced questing. And by "forced questing" I don't mean simply that you cannot compete with those who do quest in terms of xp and loot, but in some cases you literally cannot meaningfully advance in the game without doing the main quest (FFXIV ARR being one example). You might not even be allowed to leave a zone into a higher level zone for example.
In my opinion, the MMO continually strives to realize the RPG. A completely immersive collective story does not seem possible yet, most likely due more to technology constraints than lack of vision on the part of developers. To me, the mmorpg hasn't fully arrived because of this, they are still in the silent films stage, something essential is missing. Questing provides story, but it is the single player version of story, and this just fails to work in creating a shared epic adventure among the community. I prefer the old pre-WoW pve because, although grindy and without meaningful story, the story at least remained in a collective space.
Right now MMOs are like the computer pre-internet. Everyone goes running around performing their own insular story, but nobody's story is connected to anyone else's. We know we are sharing the same space, and occasionally we get together and have the equivalent of a LAN party or whatnot. But fundamentally the world is disconnected. I fully expect a technology will be developed one day that will allow for this connection to be made possible, though I can't imagine what that would look like. All I know is that I got a taste of that reality through the old games in which PvE took place in a shared space, rather than being a collection of privates spaces. Unfortunately, the PvE was god-awful and without quests the story was very thin. (In DAoC, the RvR actually provided the story and made the PvE seem more meaningful. But because the PvE was in a collective space, this was possible, unlike in WoW and later games where the PvP seemed disconnected from the PvE story which was being provided through quests.)
Originally posted by Rhoklaw As a huge DAoC fan, I was expecting the same thing when WAR launched and then GW2. Honestly, TESO does look promising, but this is my 3rd attempt at replacing DAoC and I'm just skeptical is all. Not to worry, I know Camelot Unchained is still in the works too in case they flop this game somehow.
As a long time but now X DAOC player....I think you said it all. I'm tired of being duped. I'll just wait to see what the game turns out to be. I don't "flock" anywhere anymore.
The little I know about DAoC is that it had very little PvE. Why would the fans flock to this game? Just curious and not making any kind of accusation or being a jerk.
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
Times change...tastes change... there seems to be a retro "back to the grind" movement at least judging by what people say they want in forum discussions.
Quests and grinds both have their place and I don't care about either absolute end of the scale. If I'm in a judging mood what I look for when deciding if I like the quest/grind balance of the PVE in a game is how viable they are relative to each other and what the rewards are like given the risk and time investment.
Some games these days make questing a must because the amount of XP and non-random useful loot you get that way is infinitely better than the alternative. But not all. There are many MMOs that strike a good balance between the two and let you quest or not to advance according to your preference.
Once you play this one you'll get a sense of where the PVE here is in that respect.
I think the "back to the grind" movement you are referring to is more of a growing fatigue with forced questing. And by "forced questing" I don't mean simply that you cannot compete with those who do quest in terms of xp and loot, but in some cases you literally cannot meaningfully advance in the game without doing the main quest (FFXIV ARR being one example). You might not even be allowed to leave a zone into a higher level zone for example.
In my opinion, the MMO continually strives to realize the RPG. A completely immersive collective story does not seem possible yet, most likely due more to technology constraints than lack of vision on the part of developers. To me, the mmorpg hasn't fully arrived because of this, they are still in the silent films stage, something essential is missing. Questing provides story, but it is the single player version of story, and this just fails to work in creating a shared epic adventure among the community. I prefer the old pre-WoW pve because, although grindy and without meaningful story, the story at least remained in a collective space.
Right now MMOs are like the computer pre-internet. Everyone goes running around performing their own insular story, but nobody's story is connected to anyone else's. We know we are sharing the same space, and occasionally we get together and have the equivalent of a LAN party or whatnot. But fundamentally the world is disconnected. I fully expect a technology will be developed one day that will allow for this connection to be made possible, though I can't imagine what that would look like. All I know is that I got a taste of that reality through the old games in which PvE took place in a shared space, rather than being a collection of privates spaces. Unfortunately, the PvE was god-awful and without quests the story was very thin. (In DAoC, the RvR actually provided the story and made the PvE seem more meaningful. But because the PvE was in a collective space, this was possible, unlike in WoW and later games where the PvP seemed disconnected from the PvE story which was being provided through quests.)
I agree with most of what you say.
It would be really cool to see developers fully embrace the communal nature of MMMOs and focus exclusively on stories and content that embrace that. I don't need to feel like the special world-saving hero in an MMO, I have single player games for that.
However, until someone figures that out and implements it in a way that makes the individual player feel like they're a meaningful contributor, that's just not going to happen. You just can't ignore the individual totally and let everyone scramble to be either important or marginal as the chips fall... no one plays MMOs to be the mail-room clerk or street sweeper.
A funny thing about ESO that has been talked about a lot recently is the Emperoro system. I'm not a fan. A system that gives every significant contributor to the win a permanent smaller bonus, IMHO, would be preferable to the individual competitiveness inherent in having only the one person who has the time and inclination to accumulate the most alliance points get a title and hefty bonus. This undermines the co-operative aspect of AvA, which otherwise is a very good part of this game since it's all about the group and not about the individual.
I've played MMOs for a long, long time. And the old ones were also imperfect--just in different ways. Elimination of quests is not the answer. Morphing quests into group quest whenever possible is a much better alternative that still leaves room for enhancing the game play with interesting and meaningful stories... nothing wrong with stories as long as they're MMO stories..
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The answer to this question is simple.....Daoc's RvR was not some side note, it was THE game. It was what the game revolved around, it was its purpose. This is why ToA is seen as what killed Daoc, it took the focus off of RvR and made you grind through ToA raids and grind to get the items unlocked. All PvE crap.
ESO has a battleground, a place for people to go when they are tired of doing the boring WoW quests. The game needed to be modernized like Skyrim but set in a complex world like Morrowind and play like a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game. It does none of this. It is just a dumbed down version of Skyrim with nothing that makes the Elder Scrolls series what it is.
As an OG UO and DAoC player (and recently Darkfall), I will most certainly not be playing ESO. And that is based on direct experience. Now I'm certainly no spokesman for DAoC fans, and if I could point out the 101 ways ESO is nothing like DAoC I would. But I can't. So all I can say is wait and see.
Originally posted by Viper482
The answer to this question is simple.....Daoc's RvR was not some side note, it was THE game. It was what the game revolved around, it was its purpose. This is why ToA is seen as what killed Daoc, it took the focus off of RvR and made you grind through ToA raids and grind to get the items unlocked. All PvE crap.
ESO has a battleground, a place for people to go when they are tired of doing the boring WoW quests. The game needed to be modernized like Skyrim but set in a complex world like Morrowind and play like a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game. It does none of this. It is just a dumbed down version of Skyrim with nothing that makes the Elder Scrolls series what it is.
You sir know what you are talking about.
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
As an OG UO and DAoC player (and recently Darkfall), I will most certainly not be playing ESO. And that is based on direct experience. Now I'm certainly no spokesman for DAoC fans, and if I could point out the 101 ways ESO is nothing like DAoC I would. But I can't. So all I can say is wait and see.
Originally posted by Viper482
...ESO has a battleground, a place for people to go when they are tired of doing the boring WoW quests. ...
You sir know what you are talking about.
I think it's the other way around. When people need a break from AvA, or an XP boost, they will quest. AvA is the game, make no mistake.
ESO IS the next Daoc, no way around it, haven't seen camelot unchained but im willing to bet Eso would give it a run for its money as a more Daoc like RvR game .
From all that I understand, PvP is very similar. 3 factions, full sieges, benefits for controlling keeps and such. It seems very DAoC to me yet there is not a big support from the old DAoC community. Just curious if anyone has any reasons....reasons that are NOT flaming rants about how you hate a game that's not even released.
Personally the PvP as well as the strong PvE is what is attracting me to this game. I loved DAoC tri-realm battles in larger open areas. I have grown very tired of this 5v5 arena (Team DeathMatch/Capture the Flag) PvP that every game seems to throw in as an after thought.
Anyway, any [Productive] thoughts?
What evidence do you have that supports a lack of interest from DAOC fans?
Until you provide factual proof, you're just saying random crap and implying it to be factual.
I'm a DAOC fan and I'm interested in TESO.
why? just why? lol.
the guy asked a simple question thats all, and people want proof? why are people so god damn on edge haha.
I am also interested to hear what people think OP as i missed the best days of DOAC. when i did eventualy play i found it to be the closest thing to EQ with pvp on the market. I just wish i had chance to really get to grips with it. So if Teso is going to be some kind of spiritual successor then im in.
Right tho? LOL. A guy can't even state his simple observations of general forum posts. And to DAS1337 show me proof that without factual proof i'm just saying random crap. Or by your very own standard, are you "saying random crap and implying it to be factual"?
Anyway, I gotta agree with the long winded post above. The combat is a bit different from DAoC that may turn some gents off. For me personally, I'm ok with the combat. But combat has never been a big thing for me, i'm more of a world/community kinda guy. But it will for sure be interesting to see the kind of gamers it pulls in with RvR. Will it be the hostile little punks (sorry if I offend you, btw no implication of age, simply maturity) or will it be the mature, fun, happy-go-lucky gamer looking to poke at other realms in a friendly manner and help along their realm instead of bashing newer players to the RvR. Because I have to agree, the community and atmosphere could really make or brake the RvR, especially in this post-WoW era of MMOs.
Some people just can't handle when they are called out for their BS. It's cool, everyone will forget not too long after they look at the next random forum post. And by the way, your post didn't suggest it was your observation. The way it was worded, that it seems very DAOC to you, which is an observation. The next part, but there is not a big support from the old DAOC community, that's you proclaiming something factual. I question who you consider the old DAOC community. A lot of people played that game, including myself. There's no way you could know the vast majority of people that played the game, and have gathered their interest in TESO. I'm calling you out because the question is flawed. Personally, I think there are a lot of DAOC fans that are interested. I won't claim it as fact, but I do tend to see quite a few posts in game forums that have three way PvP similar to DAOC. It's always a pretty big topic. So, in my opinion, the answer to your question, or concern is moot. The question itself is flawed, how could you expect anything other than a flawed answer?
Communities will never be the same. Games like UO, EQ, AC, etc, were filled with gamers who had a lot more passion for what they were experiencing. WOW came along and really made everything accessible. It brought millions upon millions of new gamers into the market. Today, these people can't be bothered with quest text, travelling by foot, or even clicking a hotkey. It's all about loot and it's all about how quickly you can give it to me. Back then, there was more challenge. The journey was just as important as the end result. It's just the evolution of the MMO gamer. That's really all it is. I'm not going to say all communities are bad, but people just seemed to care about more than just themselves a little more in the early days. In general, of course.
The RvR needs to be meaningful. There needs to be larger rewards for defending, rather than attacking. It needs to affect the whole realm, ala DAOC. In general, the rewards need to be large enough for people to want to do it. Even then, the reasons that RvR was so good in DAOC, really didn't have much to do with RvR itself. Darkness Falls in DAOC is going to be like the Imperial City in TESO. The yo-yo fights in DF were really fun, as you were fighting over something valuable. The fact that you leveled in your realm lands until taking part in RvR was very important too. There was a certain excitement and nervousness about meeting your first enemy. A completely alien looking race to you. A completely alien class, as well as spells and abilities. You couldn't even talk to them, as they spoke different languages. It really created quite a sense of rivalry, in game and out of game, on forums. Fighting for your realm was something that you wanted to do. TESO, Zenimax need to try and emulate that. From what I've read, they have a lot of similar systems. I personally don't think the communities in either game will compare, but TESO's PvP system probably is as close to DAOC's as any game we've seen since then. So maybe it has a chance?
Experience with past PvP-centric titles show the following problems, every time, all the time, with the sole exception of EVE:
1. When the first wave of players hit the "best pvp level", AKA max-level, and has more or less maximized their chances through grinding out the first set of good gear, there will be VERY few ppl at that level, for weeks yet. Thus, these players will leave bored, because there is not much to do yet, but raid empty castles and occupy deserted ground.
2. Faction-based PvP will, on virtually every server, lead to one faction having more numbers than the other, unless you artificially restrict access. If you do that, it only means the faction with more players will have their maximum cap of players active for a longer time each day than the others, as people log out slowly during the night and in the morning, the largest body of players will fill up their allotment the fastest. This leads to often one-sided domination of objectives by the numerically larger force.
3. Performance will, in particular with graphics like TESO, be horrible. I have rarely seen a game, even one with better-coded engines, perform very well with the mass zergs that will form and battle. Melee classes in particular will often be useless, the game will be decided more often than not by mexican stand-offs between ranged classes.
4. People will leave the faction losing a lot, and join the factions/servers that win. The times of the underdog turning things around, or gathering more people, are long since gone. From what we can see in TESO from the beta weekend, the mechanics also are not scalable to the point where a small, well-organized force can take down a massive zerg, since AOE crowd control and AOE damage are not devastating enough (and dont exist to the extent of past games).
5. Late night and early morning hour action will determine who controls objectives for most of the day. The primetime crowd is going to experience a game based on massive zergs, lag, possibly queues, around objectives that switch hands 10 times at night, and maybe twice during primetime. If rewards are based on said objectives, and if those rewards are vertical progression of some sort, expect the tight, well-organized guilds of people working odd times to quickly reign supreme.
I dont see TESO magically avoid these problems, and IMO they are the reason why DAOC would not succeed in its old form today: A different breed of gamers that has been trained, for years now, to not accept "losing" and expect "winning" is at the helm now, and they wont take lightly to being challenged or crushed by the things mentioned above. Its not in their definition of fun, and it really shouldnt be, since gaming has evolved.
Originally posted by Boreil ESO IS the next Daoc, no way around it, haven't seen camelot unchained but im willing to bet Eso would give it a run for its money as a more Daoc like RvR game .
It will take more then a RvR map to recapture some of the magic DAoC had. Its also about how gear was handled and crafted. ESO has the same mind set there. Also they have taken what made DAoC RvR map so awesome and then took it too the next level. Its not just about going out there to kill players. There is many reasons why a player would want to get involved. I could list many things that made RvR great you would think has nothing to do with it but once you really look at it you see why it was. CU is not a MMO its a battleground. My fondest memories PvP were in DAoC in my 15 years of MMOing. I read CU plan and knew it was not even gona come close. IMO, CU will have a very small impact on the MMO market and I call it now, no MMO will get more heat threads once people play it. Why did I invest my money, I want my money back, you lied too us. That will be the common theme.
ESO does not seem like DAOC to me. I never played WoW, so can't say if it's a WoW clone, but it certainly is not a DAOC clone.
In DAOC, there were three realms, each with its own set of classes, each of which had their own skills. Each class was complicated, and there were more than 5 buttons to play with. ESO is nothing like that.
I'm looking forward to playing ESO, but not because it is anything like DAOC.
From all that I understand, PvP is very similar. 3 factions, full sieges, benefits for controlling keeps and such. It seems very DAoC to me yet there is not a big support from the old DAoC community. Just curious if anyone has any reasons....reasons that are NOT flaming rants about how you hate a game that's not even released.
Personally the PvP as well as the strong PvE is what is attracting me to this game. I loved DAoC tri-realm battles in larger open areas. I have grown very tired of this 5v5 arena (Team DeathMatch/Capture the Flag) PvP that every game seems to throw in as an after thought.
Anyway, any [Productive] thoughts?
Not sure why you think we are not. My whole DAoC guild is making the switch, like 30 of us. We are not the only guild either, many others on our server.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
I cant think of a better Dungeon than Darkness Falls... it could quite possibly be the best dungeon ever created.
I agree, and I really liked all the dungeons in DAOC. Darkness Falls was THE best ever. Always met people coming and going through them. The battlegrounds in DAOC with mini keep taking was the best battlegrounds I've ever played in too.
We never keep swapped in any realm pre-toa either, I don't know after that because I quit when they released that crap. There was so much pride in your realms that would never have happened. I remember being many times the call would come out in the alliance chat there were enemies on our keep. We'd suicide on the nearest mob if we had to to get to our keeps. We didn't have vent/ts we had alliance chat and it was more organized than any raid I've ever been on in any other game. DAOC community was the best there was, imo.
I cant think of a better Dungeon than Darkness Falls... it could quite possibly be the best dungeon ever created.
I agree, and I really liked all the dungeons in DAOC. Darkness Falls was THE best ever. Always met people coming and going through them. The battlegrounds in DAOC with mini keep taking was the best battlegrounds I've ever played in too.
We never keep swapped in any realm pre-toa either, I don't know after that because I quit when they released that crap. There was so much pride in your realms that would never have happened. I remember being many times the call would come out in the alliance chat there were enemies on our keep. We'd suicide on the nearest mob if we had to to get to our keeps. We didn't have vent/ts we had alliance chat and it was more organized than any raid I've ever been on in any other game. DAOC community was the best there was, imo.
Agreed on both counts. DF was the best dungeon I have ever played in. Regarding servers: I was on RP servers when I played DAoC and they were good. It wasn't until I moved on to other games that I realized HOW good they were - they were easily the best I have ever played in. In fact we will never have servers that good again, because game companies don't want to spend the extra money for customer support that a true RP server requires. The RP servers we have today are a pale, watered down reflection of the DAoC RP servers. And the MMO player base has gotten younger and less mature. Put the two things together, and yes, the DAoC RP servers were the best we will ever see, hands down.
Comments
That's not true. DAoC had a lot of grindy pre-WOW PVE, which was the norm at the time, and some very fun PVE in a massive PVP/PVE dungeon, Darkness Falls. It was also segregated PVE zones where there was no PvP allowed and the three sides were kept separate. In that sense, this is the closest any MMO has come to duplicating the DAoC "formula"
Even the upcoming Camelot Unchained deviates more from the core DAoC concepts because that one does not have separate PvE zones.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
DAoC had a full PvE side.
If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
This.
I cant think of a better Dungeon than Darkness Falls... it could quite possibly be the best dungeon ever created.
Ok! Thank you. I heard it was very, very grindy. I guess when I said PvE I was thinking very few quests. But ty for setting me straight. I would occasionally watch my son play and the character control was not what I liked so I didn't try it.
I think you just inadvertently nailed why some people refer to ESO as a WoW-clone and others do not. It really depends on whether one can remember what PvE was like before WoW. Because virtually every game made now seems to use the WoW model of PvE, the very term "WoW-clone" is starting to lose all meaning.
I really dislike the term WoW clone in general, clone is for me taking something and doing a 100% copy of it. I have yet to see a game that is deserving of that particular title.
Calling something WoW wannabee sounds better to me.
Times change...tastes change... there seems to be a retro "back to the grind" movement at least judging by what people say they want in forum discussions.
Quests and grinds both have their place and I don't care about either absolute end of the scale. If I'm in a judging mood what I look for when deciding if I like the quest/grind balance of the PVE in a game is how viable they are relative to each other and what the rewards are like given the risk and time investment.
Some games these days make questing a must because the amount of XP and non-random useful loot you get that way is infinitely better than the alternative. But not all. There are many MMOs that strike a good balance between the two and let you quest or not to advance according to your preference.
Once you play this one you'll get a sense of where the PVE here is in that respect.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think the "back to the grind" movement you are referring to is more of a growing fatigue with forced questing. And by "forced questing" I don't mean simply that you cannot compete with those who do quest in terms of xp and loot, but in some cases you literally cannot meaningfully advance in the game without doing the main quest (FFXIV ARR being one example). You might not even be allowed to leave a zone into a higher level zone for example.
In my opinion, the MMO continually strives to realize the RPG. A completely immersive collective story does not seem possible yet, most likely due more to technology constraints than lack of vision on the part of developers. To me, the mmorpg hasn't fully arrived because of this, they are still in the silent films stage, something essential is missing. Questing provides story, but it is the single player version of story, and this just fails to work in creating a shared epic adventure among the community. I prefer the old pre-WoW pve because, although grindy and without meaningful story, the story at least remained in a collective space.
Right now MMOs are like the computer pre-internet. Everyone goes running around performing their own insular story, but nobody's story is connected to anyone else's. We know we are sharing the same space, and occasionally we get together and have the equivalent of a LAN party or whatnot. But fundamentally the world is disconnected. I fully expect a technology will be developed one day that will allow for this connection to be made possible, though I can't imagine what that would look like. All I know is that I got a taste of that reality through the old games in which PvE took place in a shared space, rather than being a collection of privates spaces. Unfortunately, the PvE was god-awful and without quests the story was very thin. (In DAoC, the RvR actually provided the story and made the PvE seem more meaningful. But because the PvE was in a collective space, this was possible, unlike in WoW and later games where the PvP seemed disconnected from the PvE story which was being provided through quests.)
Uh.. a console-friendly MMO with no substance is supposed to attract an old school pvp crowd?
As a long time but now X DAOC player....I think you said it all. I'm tired of being duped. I'll just wait to see what the game turns out to be. I don't "flock" anywhere anymore.
Heck I don't even play any mmog at the moment.
I agree with most of what you say.
It would be really cool to see developers fully embrace the communal nature of MMMOs and focus exclusively on stories and content that embrace that. I don't need to feel like the special world-saving hero in an MMO, I have single player games for that.
However, until someone figures that out and implements it in a way that makes the individual player feel like they're a meaningful contributor, that's just not going to happen. You just can't ignore the individual totally and let everyone scramble to be either important or marginal as the chips fall... no one plays MMOs to be the mail-room clerk or street sweeper.
A funny thing about ESO that has been talked about a lot recently is the Emperoro system. I'm not a fan. A system that gives every significant contributor to the win a permanent smaller bonus, IMHO, would be preferable to the individual competitiveness inherent in having only the one person who has the time and inclination to accumulate the most alliance points get a title and hefty bonus. This undermines the co-operative aspect of AvA, which otherwise is a very good part of this game since it's all about the group and not about the individual.
I've played MMOs for a long, long time. And the old ones were also imperfect--just in different ways. Elimination of quests is not the answer. Morphing quests into group quest whenever possible is a much better alternative that still leaves room for enhancing the game play with interesting and meaningful stories... nothing wrong with stories as long as they're MMO stories..
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The answer to this question is simple.....Daoc's RvR was not some side note, it was THE game. It was what the game revolved around, it was its purpose. This is why ToA is seen as what killed Daoc, it took the focus off of RvR and made you grind through ToA raids and grind to get the items unlocked. All PvE crap.
ESO has a battleground, a place for people to go when they are tired of doing the boring WoW quests. The game needed to be modernized like Skyrim but set in a complex world like Morrowind and play like a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game. It does none of this. It is just a dumbed down version of Skyrim with nothing that makes the Elder Scrolls series what it is.
As an OG UO and DAoC player (and recently Darkfall), I will most certainly not be playing ESO. And that is based on direct experience. Now I'm certainly no spokesman for DAoC fans, and if I could point out the 101 ways ESO is nothing like DAoC I would. But I can't. So all I can say is wait and see.
You sir know what you are talking about."Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
-Matt Groening
So will the GW2 crowd. I can't imagine anyone staying for WvW...
I think it's the other way around. When people need a break from AvA, or an XP boost, they will quest. AvA is the game, make no mistake.
Some people just can't handle when they are called out for their BS. It's cool, everyone will forget not too long after they look at the next random forum post. And by the way, your post didn't suggest it was your observation. The way it was worded, that it seems very DAOC to you, which is an observation. The next part, but there is not a big support from the old DAOC community, that's you proclaiming something factual. I question who you consider the old DAOC community. A lot of people played that game, including myself. There's no way you could know the vast majority of people that played the game, and have gathered their interest in TESO. I'm calling you out because the question is flawed. Personally, I think there are a lot of DAOC fans that are interested. I won't claim it as fact, but I do tend to see quite a few posts in game forums that have three way PvP similar to DAOC. It's always a pretty big topic. So, in my opinion, the answer to your question, or concern is moot. The question itself is flawed, how could you expect anything other than a flawed answer?
Communities will never be the same. Games like UO, EQ, AC, etc, were filled with gamers who had a lot more passion for what they were experiencing. WOW came along and really made everything accessible. It brought millions upon millions of new gamers into the market. Today, these people can't be bothered with quest text, travelling by foot, or even clicking a hotkey. It's all about loot and it's all about how quickly you can give it to me. Back then, there was more challenge. The journey was just as important as the end result. It's just the evolution of the MMO gamer. That's really all it is. I'm not going to say all communities are bad, but people just seemed to care about more than just themselves a little more in the early days. In general, of course.
The RvR needs to be meaningful. There needs to be larger rewards for defending, rather than attacking. It needs to affect the whole realm, ala DAOC. In general, the rewards need to be large enough for people to want to do it. Even then, the reasons that RvR was so good in DAOC, really didn't have much to do with RvR itself. Darkness Falls in DAOC is going to be like the Imperial City in TESO. The yo-yo fights in DF were really fun, as you were fighting over something valuable. The fact that you leveled in your realm lands until taking part in RvR was very important too. There was a certain excitement and nervousness about meeting your first enemy. A completely alien looking race to you. A completely alien class, as well as spells and abilities. You couldn't even talk to them, as they spoke different languages. It really created quite a sense of rivalry, in game and out of game, on forums. Fighting for your realm was something that you wanted to do. TESO, Zenimax need to try and emulate that. From what I've read, they have a lot of similar systems. I personally don't think the communities in either game will compare, but TESO's PvP system probably is as close to DAOC's as any game we've seen since then. So maybe it has a chance?
Experience with past PvP-centric titles show the following problems, every time, all the time, with the sole exception of EVE:
1. When the first wave of players hit the "best pvp level", AKA max-level, and has more or less maximized their chances through grinding out the first set of good gear, there will be VERY few ppl at that level, for weeks yet. Thus, these players will leave bored, because there is not much to do yet, but raid empty castles and occupy deserted ground.
2. Faction-based PvP will, on virtually every server, lead to one faction having more numbers than the other, unless you artificially restrict access. If you do that, it only means the faction with more players will have their maximum cap of players active for a longer time each day than the others, as people log out slowly during the night and in the morning, the largest body of players will fill up their allotment the fastest. This leads to often one-sided domination of objectives by the numerically larger force.
3. Performance will, in particular with graphics like TESO, be horrible. I have rarely seen a game, even one with better-coded engines, perform very well with the mass zergs that will form and battle. Melee classes in particular will often be useless, the game will be decided more often than not by mexican stand-offs between ranged classes.
4. People will leave the faction losing a lot, and join the factions/servers that win. The times of the underdog turning things around, or gathering more people, are long since gone. From what we can see in TESO from the beta weekend, the mechanics also are not scalable to the point where a small, well-organized force can take down a massive zerg, since AOE crowd control and AOE damage are not devastating enough (and dont exist to the extent of past games).
5. Late night and early morning hour action will determine who controls objectives for most of the day. The primetime crowd is going to experience a game based on massive zergs, lag, possibly queues, around objectives that switch hands 10 times at night, and maybe twice during primetime. If rewards are based on said objectives, and if those rewards are vertical progression of some sort, expect the tight, well-organized guilds of people working odd times to quickly reign supreme.
I dont see TESO magically avoid these problems, and IMO they are the reason why DAOC would not succeed in its old form today: A different breed of gamers that has been trained, for years now, to not accept "losing" and expect "winning" is at the helm now, and they wont take lightly to being challenged or crushed by the things mentioned above. Its not in their definition of fun, and it really shouldnt be, since gaming has evolved.
because daoc plays like having more than 6 moves.
next question?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
It will take more then a RvR map to recapture some of the magic DAoC had. Its also about how gear was handled and crafted. ESO has the same mind set there. Also they have taken what made DAoC RvR map so awesome and then took it too the next level. Its not just about going out there to kill players. There is many reasons why a player would want to get involved. I could list many things that made RvR great you would think has nothing to do with it but once you really look at it you see why it was. CU is not a MMO its a battleground. My fondest memories PvP were in DAoC in my 15 years of MMOing. I read CU plan and knew it was not even gona come close. IMO, CU will have a very small impact on the MMO market and I call it now, no MMO will get more heat threads once people play it. Why did I invest my money, I want my money back, you lied too us. That will be the common theme.
ESO does not seem like DAOC to me. I never played WoW, so can't say if it's a WoW clone, but it certainly is not a DAOC clone.
In DAOC, there were three realms, each with its own set of classes, each of which had their own skills. Each class was complicated, and there were more than 5 buttons to play with. ESO is nothing like that.
I'm looking forward to playing ESO, but not because it is anything like DAOC.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Not sure why you think we are not. My whole DAoC guild is making the switch, like 30 of us. We are not the only guild either, many others on our server.
I agree, and I really liked all the dungeons in DAOC. Darkness Falls was THE best ever. Always met people coming and going through them. The battlegrounds in DAOC with mini keep taking was the best battlegrounds I've ever played in too.
We never keep swapped in any realm pre-toa either, I don't know after that because I quit when they released that crap. There was so much pride in your realms that would never have happened. I remember being many times the call would come out in the alliance chat there were enemies on our keep. We'd suicide on the nearest mob if we had to to get to our keeps. We didn't have vent/ts we had alliance chat and it was more organized than any raid I've ever been on in any other game. DAOC community was the best there was, imo.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Agreed on both counts. DF was the best dungeon I have ever played in. Regarding servers: I was on RP servers when I played DAoC and they were good. It wasn't until I moved on to other games that I realized HOW good they were - they were easily the best I have ever played in. In fact we will never have servers that good again, because game companies don't want to spend the extra money for customer support that a true RP server requires. The RP servers we have today are a pale, watered down reflection of the DAoC RP servers. And the MMO player base has gotten younger and less mature. Put the two things together, and yes, the DAoC RP servers were the best we will ever see, hands down.
Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC