Ive never said that P2P made more. I do think F2P is more damaging to the genre in terms of throwing pay walls everywhere, pick ads popping up asking you to buy this to access that. F2P is not fair, profitable? Yes, but fair to the players? Hell no.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).
And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.
This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.
Well yeah lol..
That's kinda the point. It was already known F2P/Cash Shops can generate more revenue than straight subscriptions. Where subs present a ceiling of ~$15 a month (outside of expansions, account services, etc), F2P has no ceiling. That's why so many developers/publishers jumped on it lol. No surprise there at all.
When you're dealing with people who will balk at spending the equivalent of 50 cents a day to pay a monthly sub "because what if I can't play all the time?", but will happily fork over many times that on cash shop items, and feel they're getting an awesome deal "because the game is free!"... well, yeah.. it's kind of a no brainer lol. Of course companies are going to take advantage of that.
This was already proven before F2P/Cash Shops was even a known "thing" here in the West. Developers saw how they'd get $15 a month from players, who would then go and spend hundreds - even thousands - on eBay and other sites for characters, in-game currency, weapons, armor, power-leveling, and other things. So it's not even like they were testing in a cold environment. The data was already there. They just had to figure out how to tap into it. And they did.
So yes... F2P is basically doing exactly the thing that companies embraced it for in the first place. Making them more money, from fewer people, for the same amount (or less) of product.
There's also more F2P MMOs out there than sub-based MMOs, so that's kind of a no-brainer as well.
It says nothing of the validity of either model (they both have their place, based on the design of the game and what the developer intends to do with it).
In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).
And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.
This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.
I personally couldn't give a flying f**k OP... FTP will never get a penny off me and I have hated every single one I have tried.
Only slight exception there I'll concede is Rift which was pretty decent. But hey that was sub to start so had a lot of the production values in place when it went FTP.
I would say this chart only shows the opposite. While F2P is the larger number it also has WAAAAAAAY more games in that space. Especially considering they took from every genre and not just the MMO genre.
Where as the P2P market only has a few games left and only really pulls from the MMO genre. For P2P to be that relevant; It really shows that P2P will make more money per player; than F2P makes per player.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Any way you cut it f2p is NOT good for the consumer.
Pretty good for me. Fun games to enjoy .. without paying a cent. Tell me .. how is that not good for me?
i think i'll have to call you on that, because even F2P games withold quite a bit behind a paywall, so what games are you playing, and what level have you got to etc. that your happy with them and are having fun, without having had to pay a penny?
Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet that in the majority of these games he has so much fun in, he's probably made very little progression. It would be interesting to look at the total of his character sheets. I'd be willing to bet that 90% (or more) percent of his characters/accounts could be deleted and still not lose much.
Any way you cut it f2p is NOT good for the consumer.
Pretty good for me. Fun games to enjoy .. without paying a cent. Tell me .. how is that not good for me?
i think i'll have to call you on that, because even F2P games withold quite a bit behind a paywall, so what games are you playing, and what level have you got to etc. that your happy with them and are having fun, without having had to pay a penny?
Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet that in the majority of these games he has so much fun in, he's probably made very little progression. It would be interesting to look at the total of his character sheets. I'd be willing to bet that 90% (or more) percent of his characters/accounts could be deleted and still not lose much.
Oh yeah, I've assumed the same for some time now, and it would indeed be interesting to get a look at how much he actually progressed in any given game from the sea of titles that he plays "without paying a cent".
However, I think there is one game he genuinely plays without paying and it goes by the name of mmorpg.com
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by Elikal I haven't doubted that a moment. If companies would not make much more money with F2P they wouldn't DO it. Duh.
That is it, in a nutshell, right? If F2P was not as lucrative as it is, MMO companies would drop it faster than Superman circles the globe
I guess the big test the longevity of this model.
I just wish nariusseldon would use links that weren't so "questionable."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Elikal I haven't doubted that a moment. If companies would not make much more money with F2P they wouldn't DO it. Duh.
That is it, in a nutshell, right? If F2P was not as lucrative as it is, MMO companies would drop it faster than Superman circles the globe
I guess the big test the longevity of this model.
I just wish nariusseldon would use links that weren't so "questionable."
Nothing last forever. Why is longevity important? It is not like we expect to have less entertainment in the future. If f2p MMOs are gone, i am sure there are other fun things to do.
And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I would say this chart only shows the opposite. While F2P is the larger number it also has WAAAAAAAY more games in that space. Especially considering they took from every genre and not just the MMO genre.
Where as the P2P market only has a few games left and only really pulls from the MMO genre. For P2P to be that relevant; It really shows that P2P will make more money per player; than F2P makes per player.
Here is the problem with your reasoning though; if you include all the people who pay nothing in your analysis, does the average player pay less in a F2P game? Probably. But numbers have been released on what the average *subscriber* pays in games which add a cash shop (which generally comes attached to a free option) and they have shown that the industry wide average revenue per subscriber in these games fluctuates from month to month anywhere from $25.00 to $40.00 dollars. We have also seen that not only the number of players, but the number of actual subscribers, tends to increase in games that add a cash shop/free option after launch. So, if adding a cash shop increases both the number of subscribers and the amount of money made per subscriber, why wouldn't you do it?
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Make up data can be questionable.
I don't even know where he's source come from. If it is something publicized by the game company it'll be more reliable.
The data for lineage is obviously wrong. The data list the total revenue for lineage. Which seems to be right base on the NCsoft financial report. The problem is the total revenue include "both the subscription and cashshop". While the list says the revenue is from cashshop only.
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Make up data can be questionable.
I don't even know where he's source come from. If it is something publicized by the game company it'll be more reliable.
The data for lineage is obviously wrong. The data list the total revenue for lineage. Which seems to be right base on the NCsoft financial report. The problem is the total revenue include "both the subscription and cashshop". While the list says the revenue is from cashshop only.
I think a company publicly selling data is more credible than you .. a random dude on the internet, with no source, and cites. You can go on their sites to read about their methodologies.
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot What are the downfalls of the freemium model (free to play + optional sub bonuses), as long as there's no P2W cash shop?
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Make up data can be questionable.
I don't even know where he's source come from. If it is something publicized by the game company it'll be more reliable.
The data for lineage is obviously wrong. The data list the total revenue for lineage. Which seems to be right base on the NCsoft financial report. The problem is the total revenue include "both the subscription and cashshop". While the list says the revenue is from cashshop only.
I think a company publicly selling data is more credible than you .. a random dude on the internet, with no source, and cites. You can go on their sites to read about their methodologies.
I believe NCsoft financial report is much more reliable than a company who sells data to make money(who knows if the information is even right without no quote on source).
Take for example information released by mmodata.net. All of the data at least is gotten from information released by the game studio or game developer themself.
THe website never even say where they got their information from.
Originally posted by Elikal I haven't doubted that a moment. If companies would not make much more money with F2P they wouldn't DO it. Duh.
That is it, in a nutshell, right? If F2P was not as lucrative as it is, MMO companies would drop it faster than Superman circles the globe
I guess the big test the longevity of this model.
I just wish nariusseldon would use links that weren't so "questionable."
Nothing last forever. Why is longevity important? It is not like we expect to have less entertainment in the future. If f2p MMOs are gone, i am sure there are other fun things to do.
And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
Just finished reading the rest of this thread that you've started.
Do you seem to think the Free To Play games (median), are the same quality as Subscription based models..?Or that each business model offers the same type of game to the end-user..? You seem very misguided here.
The demographic that supports each type of business model is vastly different: Income levels, age brackets and education.. all play a massive role in the business model, that a Developer chooses. (ie: target audience)
Again, perhaps you are unable to use the data properly, because you have limited experience of playing, or investing in MMORPGs. But you skewed outlook is a tad offset from the reality of what is, & has taken place in the Industry as a whole. But just answering those two question put to you, will weigh heavily upon your ability to understand the numbers presented. Because you skew facts, then offer a deranged view and support for them. (Which is taken so out of context by you).
I suggest you step back from your post and look at the broader sense of Games, digital games, online games and MMORPGs.
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Make up data can be questionable.
I don't even know where he's source come from. If it is something publicized by the game company it'll be more reliable.
The data for lineage is obviously wrong. The data list the total revenue for lineage. Which seems to be right base on the NCsoft financial report. The problem is the total revenue include "both the subscription and cashshop". While the list says the revenue is from cashshop only.
The report says where the numbers came from ...you just have to actually read it. Not just look at the picture and make assumptions.
Originally posted by nariusseldon And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
That is one difference between you and I. You seek to find what you can use and once found, stop seeking. I seek things out and when I find them, I question them. I don't stop at the first thing I agree with. Then I seek answers for those questions in other places. Of course anything you agree with is never "questionable."
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Make up data can be questionable.
I don't even know where he's source come from. If it is something publicized by the game company it'll be more reliable.
The data for lineage is obviously wrong. The data list the total revenue for lineage. Which seems to be right base on the NCsoft financial report. The problem is the total revenue include "both the subscription and cashshop". While the list says the revenue is from cashshop only.
The report says where the numbers came from ...you just have to actually read it. Not just look at the picture and make assumptions.
I responded to that already. You might want to read over the thread before you say that again.
If the number include both subscription and cash shop. Which is what they said total sales. Why didn't they include the subscription number for wow too? I dont' think they even know lineage is actually subscription base in many location.
Any way you cut it f2p is NOT good for the consumer.
Pretty good for me. Fun games to enjoy .. without paying a cent. Tell me .. how is that not good for me?
i think i'll have to call you on that, because even F2P games withold quite a bit behind a paywall, so what games are you playing, and what level have you got to etc. that your happy with them and are having fun, without having had to pay a penny?
Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet that in the majority of these games he has so much fun in, he's probably made very little progression. It would be interesting to look at the total of his character sheets. I'd be willing to bet that 90% (or more) percent of his characters/accounts could be deleted and still not lose much.
Oh yeah, I've assumed the same for some time now, and it would indeed be interesting to get a look at how much he actually progressed in any given game from the sea of titles that he plays "without paying a cent".
However, I think there is one game he genuinely plays without paying and it goes by the name of mmorpg.com
In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).
And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.
This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.
I personally couldn't give a flying f**k OP... FTP will never get a penny off me and I have hated every single one I have tried.
Only slight exception there I'll concede is Rift which was pretty decent. But hey that was sub to start so had a lot of the production values in place when it went FTP.
I like this response. It is simple, direct and appears very honest. It presents a point of view and doesn't bother trying to force that point of view on anyone else. The best part is that it doesn't try to rearrange reality to suit a personal opinion.
I have no idea who Wolfhammer really is, but in my mind, they find games they like and they play them and they are pretty happy with the games they play. That, my friends, is a gamer.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The uncomfortable thing about these reports is for us armchair watchers. I'm not paying thousands to see the report so I can't pick it apart the way you normally would disseminate information so you are stuck with THEIR dissemination. That's where bias can be encountered. You see it even in weather reporting - is tomorrow "partly cloudy" or "partly sunny"? Depends on how you want to report it. I've brought up my skeptical thoughts coming through on why WOW is "bleeding" subscribers when losing 5m over a year while 5m F2P players there was no "bleeding" comment. That's the personal bias you get when you can't see the data because it's behind a "pay wall".
That particular distinction isn't bias, it's a recognition that losing 5 million subscribers means (over the course of twelve months) losing 900 million dollars of subscription revenue. Losing 5 million free players could mean as small a loss as zero, if they were the free players who don't use the cash shop.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
In the end it doesn't even really matter how reliable the sources are, because basically every time data was used in this thread it was either misunderstood by the user or misrepresented / misused in order to support bogus claims or the user forgot to mention that the shown data is more or less irrelevant because important parts of it are simply missing.
5 billion revenue could mean 5 billion totally failed games that generate $1 each before instantly dying for all that we know.
The global market size of potatoes being bigger than the market size for Maseratis doesn't mean I would rather get a potato for christmas.
Comments
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
Well yeah lol..
That's kinda the point. It was already known F2P/Cash Shops can generate more revenue than straight subscriptions. Where subs present a ceiling of ~$15 a month (outside of expansions, account services, etc), F2P has no ceiling. That's why so many developers/publishers jumped on it lol. No surprise there at all.
When you're dealing with people who will balk at spending the equivalent of 50 cents a day to pay a monthly sub "because what if I can't play all the time?", but will happily fork over many times that on cash shop items, and feel they're getting an awesome deal "because the game is free!"... well, yeah.. it's kind of a no brainer lol. Of course companies are going to take advantage of that.
This was already proven before F2P/Cash Shops was even a known "thing" here in the West. Developers saw how they'd get $15 a month from players, who would then go and spend hundreds - even thousands - on eBay and other sites for characters, in-game currency, weapons, armor, power-leveling, and other things. So it's not even like they were testing in a cold environment. The data was already there. They just had to figure out how to tap into it. And they did.
So yes... F2P is basically doing exactly the thing that companies embraced it for in the first place. Making them more money, from fewer people, for the same amount (or less) of product.
There's also more F2P MMOs out there than sub-based MMOs, so that's kind of a no-brainer as well.
It says nothing of the validity of either model (they both have their place, based on the design of the game and what the developer intends to do with it).
So, again... Null surprise.
I personally couldn't give a flying f**k OP... FTP will never get a penny off me and I have hated every single one I have tried.
Only slight exception there I'll concede is Rift which was pretty decent. But hey that was sub to start so had a lot of the production values in place when it went FTP.
I would say this chart only shows the opposite. While F2P is the larger number it also has WAAAAAAAY more games in that space. Especially considering they took from every genre and not just the MMO genre.
Where as the P2P market only has a few games left and only really pulls from the MMO genre. For P2P to be that relevant; It really shows that P2P will make more money per player; than F2P makes per player.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet that in the majority of these games he has so much fun in, he's probably made very little progression. It would be interesting to look at the total of his character sheets. I'd be willing to bet that 90% (or more) percent of his characters/accounts could be deleted and still not lose much.
Oh yeah, I've assumed the same for some time now, and it would indeed be interesting to get a look at how much he actually progressed in any given game from the sea of titles that he plays "without paying a cent".
However, I think there is one game he genuinely plays without paying and it goes by the name of mmorpg.com
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I guess the big test the longevity of this model.
I just wish nariusseldon would use links that weren't so "questionable."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Nothing last forever. Why is longevity important? It is not like we expect to have less entertainment in the future. If f2p MMOs are gone, i am sure there are other fun things to do.
And industrial data is "questionable"? At least it is not some opinions from random dudes on the internet.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Here is the problem with your reasoning though; if you include all the people who pay nothing in your analysis, does the average player pay less in a F2P game? Probably. But numbers have been released on what the average *subscriber* pays in games which add a cash shop (which generally comes attached to a free option) and they have shown that the industry wide average revenue per subscriber in these games fluctuates from month to month anywhere from $25.00 to $40.00 dollars. We have also seen that not only the number of players, but the number of actual subscribers, tends to increase in games that add a cash shop/free option after launch. So, if adding a cash shop increases both the number of subscribers and the amount of money made per subscriber, why wouldn't you do it?
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
data cannot be questionable .. they are facts.
So do you find any other "data" that contradicts the data in this link? Keep trying ... let me know when you have it.
Make up data can be questionable.
I don't even know where he's source come from. If it is something publicized by the game company it'll be more reliable.
The data for lineage is obviously wrong. The data list the total revenue for lineage. Which seems to be right base on the NCsoft financial report. The problem is the total revenue include "both the subscription and cashshop". While the list says the revenue is from cashshop only.
I think a company publicly selling data is more credible than you .. a random dude on the internet, with no source, and cites. You can go on their sites to read about their methodologies.
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
You don't get the whales to spend as much?
I believe NCsoft financial report is much more reliable than a company who sells data to make money(who knows if the information is even right without no quote on source).
Take for example information released by mmodata.net. All of the data at least is gotten from information released by the game studio or game developer themself.
THe website never even say where they got their information from.
Just finished reading the rest of this thread that you've started.
Do you seem to think the Free To Play games (median), are the same quality as Subscription based models..? Or that each business model offers the same type of game to the end-user..? You seem very misguided here.
The demographic that supports each type of business model is vastly different: Income levels, age brackets and education.. all play a massive role in the business model, that a Developer chooses. (ie: target audience)
Again, perhaps you are unable to use the data properly, because you have limited experience of playing, or investing in MMORPGs. But you skewed outlook is a tad offset from the reality of what is, & has taken place in the Industry as a whole. But just answering those two question put to you, will weigh heavily upon your ability to understand the numbers presented. Because you skew facts, then offer a deranged view and support for them. (Which is taken so out of context by you).
I suggest you step back from your post and look at the broader sense of Games, digital games, online games and MMORPGs.
The report says where the numbers came from ...you just have to actually read it. Not just look at the picture and make assumptions.
I responded to that already. You might want to read over the thread before you say that again.
If the number include both subscription and cash shop. Which is what they said total sales. Why didn't they include the subscription number for wow too? I dont' think they even know lineage is actually subscription base in many location.
I hear it's quite the PVP game.
I like this response. It is simple, direct and appears very honest. It presents a point of view and doesn't bother trying to force that point of view on anyone else. The best part is that it doesn't try to rearrange reality to suit a personal opinion.
I have no idea who Wolfhammer really is, but in my mind, they find games they like and they play them and they are pretty happy with the games they play. That, my friends, is a gamer.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That particular distinction isn't bias, it's a recognition that losing 5 million subscribers means (over the course of twelve months) losing 900 million dollars of subscription revenue. Losing 5 million free players could mean as small a loss as zero, if they were the free players who don't use the cash shop.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
In the end it doesn't even really matter how reliable the sources are, because basically every time data was used in this thread it was either misunderstood by the user or misrepresented / misused in order to support bogus claims or the user forgot to mention that the shown data is more or less irrelevant because important parts of it are simply missing.
5 billion revenue could mean 5 billion totally failed games that generate $1 each before instantly dying for all that we know.
The global market size of potatoes being bigger than the market size for Maseratis doesn't mean I would rather get a potato for christmas.