We will have to wait and see how it works. Personally I am very tired of the Trinity system. GW2 wasn't perfect but it was a nice step in the right direction I think. Combat needs to become more dynamic.
So the most recent alternative to the trinity is GW2 - which has turned group play into "all huddle together and zerg dps" group play. Probably not the golden alternative that a lot of poeple where hoping for...or is it?
Does the GW2 format satisfy only because it solves the seemingly never ending complaint of dps classes that they have to wait hours to get in a group, but now!....well now they can get in straight away, 'cos look! we are all dps!!! How great is this!
It's not great, not at all. I've been in countless groups in GW2. Group play has not been expanded with this format, in fact the reverse is true. The instance mechanics have had to be limited purely to accommodate the lack of class diversity.
And the result? Everyone stand here and nuke...
"this is pretty boring actually"
- "yes, but at least we didn't have to queue for ages!"
For people who don't want the trinity format, where is the viable and interesting alternative? Because all just huddling together and dps zerging everything sure isn't it.
I disagree with the folks claiming the trinity system is outdated. Is Chess outdated? Poker? Football?
Does the NFL need to get rid of the quarterback/running back/receiver system because it is outdated? I say no!
RPG's without trinity is without classes, therefore without roles, therefore not a role playing game. Now, it's just a Playing Game.
The more defined classes, the better games have been historically. Re-roll a new class and the whole game feels different. With no defined classes anymore, this is worst case scenario.
Who is the best tank on the server? The best mezzer? The best healer? Nobody, not anymore... you are all the same.... what a great idea... not.
Lazy is the developer blending everything together. I don't want an RPG casserole! DPS parsers have ruined the development of future MMOs
plenty of other games for you trinity lovers to play
Don't get me wrong, I'm consistent in saying that variety is good in mmos. So an interesting and challenging alternative to the trinity will be welcome.
But it will be a first.
If the alternative is giving all classes the same set of skills - with different names and animations - then you may as well just have one class.
Yea my post was with written with alittle troll in it. But fact is that the trinity did/does work. I' m also saying there are other ways that work. I' ve played a few but the best and worst one was MO. And how will raiding work? How do they avoid it to become a zerg mountain? In the end for me it will all come down to the combat system, no matter how good the rest of the world might be.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Trinity works - see wow (PVE)
Non trinity works - see gw1 & eve (PVP)
Like some others have said, i personally believe a trinity system or variation of it is neccesary for a succesful PVE MMO.
Now, once you start getting outside of the definition of an MMO, which many of these games have, then things change. Especially if you incorporate PVP.
And MOBA's are not an example of smart mechanics/roles. They are an example of dumb people. I can't tell you how many times i've sat and watched all 4 other people on my team sit and beat on Abaddon all the way up to full health after his utli pops and completely ignore everyone else in the fight.
As far as the guy saying EQ:N is going to use terrain, etc? Yeah, i'll pass. Ring around the rosey MMO is not my cup of tea.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
TANK: What the hell! I almost died just now. You falling asleep or what?
HEALER: OMG! Mr. Thief wouldn't stop going nutz with backstabbing everything in sight. Seriously, he was suicidal or something.
DPS: Look man, I like to kill shiznit so if you don't like it, learn to heal! As for you Tank and Spank. You can't keep their attention, then I guess you should find a new line of work.
Non Trinity System Scenario:
PLAYER 1: Wow, that was awesome, I totally owned that last battle!
PLAYER 2: What are you talking about, that was definitely all my doing. I was nuking the crap out of everything!
PLAYER 3: You two are high as hell cause if it wasn't for me swinging my sword around in circles every 5 seconds, none of us would be alive right now.
There you have it, the old system of the blame game vs. the new system of zero individuality. Granted, the Trinity is old and has issues when it comes to finding groups. I certainly enjoy MMO's that follow the game mechanics I grew up with in D&D table top. Non Trinity seems too much like an approach to an FPS, where everyone shoots a weapon and dies constantly. So ya, you all enjoy your EQN FPS cause I'm going to be playing The Repopulation, which is the true SWG spiritual successor, not some stupid post apocalyptic zombie game, lol.
SWG and Repop as far as I can see has a freeform class system (you can specialize or be a tanking healer, healing dpser or a Leroy amongst many other options) so using either as a example of a trinity game is comical considering the actual SWG, the one emulators are trying to recreate for over half a decade now, was closer to EVE-Online than WoW.
TANK: What the hell! I almost died just now. You falling asleep or what?
HEALER: OMG! Mr. Thief wouldn't stop going nutz with backstabbing everything in sight. Seriously, he was suicidal or something.
DPS: Look man, I like to kill shiznit so if you don't like it, learn to heal! As for you Tank and Spank. You can't keep their attention, then I guess you should find a new line of work.
Non Trinity System Scenario:
PLAYER 1: Wow, that was awesome, I totally owned that last battle!
PLAYER 2: What are you talking about, that was definitely all my doing. I was nuking the crap out of everything!
PLAYER 3: You two are high as hell cause if it wasn't for me swinging my sword around in circles every 5 seconds, none of us would be alive right now.
There you have it, the old system of the blame game vs. the new system of zero individuality. Granted, the Trinity is old and has issues when it comes to finding groups. I certainly enjoy MMO's that follow the game mechanics I grew up with in D&D table top. Non Trinity seems too much like an approach to an FPS, where everyone shoots a weapon and dies constantly. So ya, you all enjoy your EQN FPS cause I'm going to be playing The Repopulation, which is the true SWG spiritual successor, not some stupid post apocalyptic zombie game, lol.
SWG and Repop as far as I can see has a freeform class system (you can specialize or be a tanking healer, healing dpser or a Leroy amongst many other options) so using either as a example of a trinity game is comical considering the actual SWG, the one emulators are trying to recreate for over half a decade now, was closer to EVE-Online than WoW.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was claiming SWG or The Repop were trinity focused combat style games. I am bashing MMO's for using what would be considered FPS style mentality in a high fantasy setting. I would consider EQNext to be more of a old school D&D style game, like WoW. If you want to turn old school fantasy games into something FPS gamers will enjoy, by all means, do so. I just think the non trinity system completely defeats the purpose of fantasy history.
Repopulation has Action Mode... which turns it more into a FPS or TPS.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
well i dont intend to focus on this game, but thanks to you i will keep an eye, in the same time i feel sorry you are step behind and prefer the old style, is like introducing the guns and you prefer the blades ...
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
well i dont intend to focus on this game, but thanks to you i will keep an eye, in the same time i feel sorry you are step behind and prefer the old style, is like introducing the guns and you prefer the blades ...
I fail to see how preferring roles is a "step behind".. You must of missed various post in where it was shown that even in the 21st century, our military is ALL about roles and duties being performed by many.. I won't even go into professional sports roles, but when was the last time you saw 11 Quarterbacks take the field??
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
well i dont intend to focus on this game, but thanks to you i will keep an eye, in the same time i feel sorry you are step behind and prefer the old style, is like introducing the guns and you prefer the blades ...
I fail to see how preferring roles is a "step behind".. You must of missed various post in where it was shown that even in the 21st century, our military is ALL about roles and duties being performed by many.. I won't even go into professional sports roles, but when was the last time you saw 11 Quarterbacks take the field??
Same time I saw the coach get thrown off the team because he doesn't block, pass or receive and they only needed those 3 roles on the team.
Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
Wow, you are a bit late to the show.
Since those class panels SoE has clarified what they meant by "no trinity". There will still be traditional roles, but they will work differently. Instead of a tank working on aggro and taunting creatures, the tank will work by disabling and blocking monster from reaching the more squishy party members. You still have tanks, but monsters wont simply focus on them, so tanks will have abilities to "control" monsters movement.
This is the case because their idea of emergeant AI means that creatures are a lot smarter then tank and spank in previous MMOs, they will change targets, react to the fight and players will have to do likewise. It sounds like a great thing, but no.. its not like the fail that guildwars 2 brought everyone.
Well, whatever EQNext is, it's not following the trinity system of combat. It's trying to be more action oriented like GW2, which in my opinion has more hatred for the combat system then approval. If it was more like TERA, than yes, it would probably be better off, but the whole non trinity system is garbage in a high fantasy setting.
Really? Both GW1 and Lineage don't have trinity and they are awesome. Lineage is still one of the most popular games globally today and it's 15 years old.
You can have roles without a tank-styled trinity. You can also have a non-tank trinity that doesn't rely on aggro or taunt skills. Controllers help manage mob damage. Healers still heal, but can do more. There are buffers and damage dealers as well. The problem I have with "the trinity" isn't roles, but with tanks and how that mechanic trivializes the potential for other roles and combat in general.
So I'm happy that EQN won't have a trinity. I would also rather enjoy GW2 styled combat over most trinity based rng-tab-target styles of combat. GW2 isn't my favorite combat system, but it's not my least favorite either and it can be fun.
What I would really like to see is a system like Neverwinter or Tera without the tank aggro part.
Yeah that was my point a few days ago , I played MMO's for 11 years without a tank role , no taunts. So yeah we had healers and even a ranger could heal a bit in the first MMO. I haven't played Neverwinter , GW1 , Gw2 or tera but they sound a lot more interesting now. Maybe in PSU's case the fact you could have a party of 6 might have helped the non-trinity ( or non- Holy trinity ) ? Not sure but yeah people are so stuck in their ways that no trinity equals I won't play , very sad. You can't teach an old dog new tricks ? ( mentality )
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
If anything is outdated, it's the taunt and force taunt mechanic. We didn't have that in FFXI and i believe it's threat system was far superior to anything since.
While we had a "Provoke" skill on a 30 sec cooldown, all it did was increase enmity. There were far better ways to build enmity such as healing and CC. What this system allowed was for other classes to actually have to work with the tank to ensure he/she holds threat.
Go nuts DPS wise? You're going to die. Over-heal or use the wrong heal? You're going to die. Spam Sleep or other CC's? Those mobs are going to be glued to you until you die.
What this system also allowed was for certain classes that were not originally designed as tanks, to actually fulfill the role. Now this was probably attributed to the fact that armor and defense meant nothing in that game, but the options were there thanks to the system.
What i guess I'm trying to say is that the Trinity is fine and it works. We need the system expanded upon mechanics wise instead of simply eliminating it, and it has to start with a larger group/party size to allow for more flexibility.
Excellent points... Many older MMO's that people commonly think as having the trinity system are not the same as the modern Trinity systems.
Go back and play on one of the many free servers and you will quickly learn that old school taunts were not guaranteed to hold aggro like today's games. Today if you are a tank and someone pulls aggro off you, it's assumed the game is flawed! Go play DAOC again and re-learn just how easy it is to grab aggro! So, you quickly learn to slow down and allow the fight to progress at a realistic pace. Plus, you it helps you manage your resources so you aren't sitting between each fight recuperating!
With over forty classes that you can learn skills from and mix and match, why is everyone so concerned about one stupid role, that never "really" existed until later versions of WOW made it possible to have tanks that were practically impossible to grab aggro from!
Take every game for what it offers, enjoy it until you don't and then move along!
Played Meridian 59, UO, EQ1, EQ2, WOW, DAOC, Asherons Call, AOC, Warhammer Online, GW1, GW2, Rift, Vanguard, etc.... Currently waiting for EQnext...
Originally posted by Rogosh In EQN the AI is supposed to be to smart to just stand there and beat on 1 person, thanks to Story Bricks. If implemented the way they say it will , wont need a trinity but you will need people that control npcs and defend others. I for one have moved past the ESOs and wildstars and am looking forward to more non-quest hub games.
Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway. That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream. It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable. Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma? You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system? It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.
All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game. Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.
Completely untrue. They've always had the ability to make mobs unkillable, to make mobs attack the healer, and forget about the tank, to make mobs attack the DPS, and forget about everything else. They didn't because they want the game to be playable by a well balanced group. When trinity is gone, it's a zerg fest. I'm not saying I'm not going to play the game, but the technology wasn't there meme is completly false. They are building a game so a caster doesn't need to worry about finding a tank to do a dungeon. Fewer need for the right group balance means you can fly through the content which is what people want nowadays.
I believe that crowd control and support will take a much bigger role in eqn. Because of the way the AI works and the way the environments can be manipulated players will need to use more strategy than they have traditionally.
Want to protect the squishes from damage, put up a wall of stone between your group and the mob and have your warrior attack any mobs that get through, big bad melee mob heading for your caster, move your caster up off the ground and out of melee range.
That sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than: tank taunts mobs healer heals tank, dps kills mobs.
I believe that crowd control and support will take a much bigger role in eqn. Because of the way the AI works and the way the environments can be manipulated players will need to use more strategy than they have traditionally. AI works? What we'll see is random chaos, or a predictable code.. I seriously doubt SOE will allow random chaos, because it will cause too much havoc.. I suspect we'll see predictable code that will be discovered and used against the mobs like ALL combat in the past to the current date..
Want to protect the squishes from damage, put up a wall of stone between your group and the mob If the mob can't attack us, we can't attack him either thru that stone wall..so now what? and have your warrior attack any mobs that get through, So we are back to the tank tanking again.. lol big bad melee mob heading for your caster, move your caster up off the ground and out of melee range. and if indeed something crazy like that should happen, players will just use the "levitate" kill method.. all you have done here is replace ONE method of control for another.. now what?
That sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than: tank taunts mobs healer heals tank, dps kills mobs.
Without roles, and methods of control, all we'll end up with is mass chaotic zerfest where everyone is a tank,dps,CC, and healer wrapped in one.. Sorta like GW2..
Without roles, and methods of control, all we'll end up with is mass chaotic zerfest where everyone is a tank,dps,CC, and healer wrapped in one.. Sorta like GW2..
Or maybe like D&D (pre 3rd edition.)
Assuming you look at how it was played, rather than how you can shoehorn it into the modern idea of a trinity.
I keep seeing posts that confuse trinity mechanics with roles.
It is not true that the end of taunting mechanics to hold aggro on a meat shield mean the end of roles. It simply means players will have to play differently.
I haven't played it in a while, but more difficult instances in DDO required players to utilize the environment and work together to finish the encounter. Sure, there were zones that in which everyone just zergged through, but, there were also encounters that were impossible to finish without a good healer, good crowd control, and well thought out tactics that utilized the environment. In other words, roles and tactics were critical in that game, and I liked it because there was no "Okay, everyone target through the tank" mechanics. It was for me, far more interesting.
This is not to say that there is anything wrong with Trinity mechanics. Hey, to each their own. But I'm glad EQN will move away from that., because I don't really enjoy that kind of encounter structure.
I believe that crowd control and support will take a much bigger role in eqn. Because of the way the AI works and the way the environments can be manipulated players will need to use more strategy than they have traditionally. AI works? What we'll see is random chaos, or a predictable code.. I seriously doubt SOE will allow random chaos, because it will cause too much havoc.. I suspect we'll see predictable code that will be discovered and used against the mobs like ALL combat in the past to the current date..
Depending on how the AI works and if it is more "player like" there may be a predictability to it, doesn't mean players can overcome it easily. It is a game after all and AI has limits, but there can surely be a high level of challenge. If mobs "intelligently" group up, defend themselves and others, work together and basically mimic players, it might be a bit more complicated then Group 1 stand here, Group 2 stand there, cast X when Y happens, etc.
Want to protect the squishes from damage, put up a wall of stone between your group and the mob If the mob can't attack us, we can't attack him either thru that stone wall..so now what?
This would be more of a defensive/escape tool. While wall holds, heal/buff, regroup.
and have your warrior attack any mobs that get through, So we are back to the tank tanking again.. lol
Tanks will still exist, but if no one wants to play one, there will be other methods to get a job done instead of only one option. The Warrior from the first combat video is clearly a "tank" they aren't going anywhere.
big bad melee mob heading for your caster, move your caster up off the ground and out of melee range. and if indeed something crazy like that should happen, players will just use the "levitate" kill method.. all you have done here is replace ONE method of control for another.. now what?
Now there are options. Mobs react, players react, mobs react. Instead of Mobs do 123 every time, players do ABC ever ytime.
That sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than: tank taunts mobs healer heals tank, dps kills mobs.
Without roles, and methods of control, all we'll end up with is mass chaotic zerfest where everyone is a tank,dps,CC, and healer wrapped in one.. Sorta like GW2..
Roles still exist and they've made that clear. Seems many can't get around their comments of "no dedicated tanks or healers" and can't fathom any other way to play a game. To me they were talking about how those roles have performed, not about the roles themselves. No taunt spam or heal ui mini-game. Having XYZ isn't needed 100% of the time. Doesn't mean certain encounters won't benefit from having a tank-healer combo, but others might not need them at all.
Personally, I find support/CC classes/roles to be more challenging the the straight forward bore fest that tank-heal-dps has in most games. I hope they go for more strategy and in turn more need to communicate and work with others.
With what we know so far about classes, it seems highly unlikely to see any GW2 like solo-machine classes. They will most likely fall within a typical role and then have flexibility within it. Highly doubt a Warrior with 8 out of 12 abilities class locked is magically going to turn into a healing machine with the 4 secondary abilities, even if they all came from a Cleric.
Zerg/DPS mindless PVE only happens when content is designed that way. There are endless other options besides players and mobs trying to out dps each other like most games.
I'm not a real fan of Wildstar, but their approach to CC is refreshing. Multiple players having to time CC to bring down a mobs defense is great, as well as their take on disarm-blind-confuse, etc. DPS is only 1 part of combat, entire battles can be based around other elements.
Comments
So the most recent alternative to the trinity is GW2 - which has turned group play into "all huddle together and zerg dps" group play. Probably not the golden alternative that a lot of poeple where hoping for...or is it?
Does the GW2 format satisfy only because it solves the seemingly never ending complaint of dps classes that they have to wait hours to get in a group, but now!....well now they can get in straight away, 'cos look! we are all dps!!! How great is this!
It's not great, not at all. I've been in countless groups in GW2. Group play has not been expanded with this format, in fact the reverse is true. The instance mechanics have had to be limited purely to accommodate the lack of class diversity.
And the result? Everyone stand here and nuke...
"this is pretty boring actually"
- "yes, but at least we didn't have to queue for ages!"
For people who don't want the trinity format, where is the viable and interesting alternative? Because all just huddling together and dps zerging everything sure isn't it.
I disagree with the folks claiming the trinity system is outdated. Is Chess outdated? Poker? Football?
Does the NFL need to get rid of the quarterback/running back/receiver system because it is outdated? I say no!
RPG's without trinity is without classes, therefore without roles, therefore not a role playing game. Now, it's just a Playing Game.
The more defined classes, the better games have been historically. Re-roll a new class and the whole game feels different. With no defined classes anymore, this is worst case scenario.
Who is the best tank on the server? The best mezzer? The best healer? Nobody, not anymore... you are all the same.... what a great idea... not.
Lazy is the developer blending everything together. I don't want an RPG casserole! DPS parsers have ruined the development of future MMOs
No Trinity?
instant buy for me
plenty of other games for you trinity lovers to play
Don't get me wrong, I'm consistent in saying that variety is good in mmos. So an interesting and challenging alternative to the trinity will be welcome.
But it will be a first.
If the alternative is giving all classes the same set of skills - with different names and animations - then you may as well just have one class.
Non trinity works - see gw1 & eve
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Like some others have said, i personally believe a trinity system or variation of it is neccesary for a succesful PVE MMO.
Now, once you start getting outside of the definition of an MMO, which many of these games have, then things change. Especially if you incorporate PVP.
And MOBA's are not an example of smart mechanics/roles. They are an example of dumb people. I can't tell you how many times i've sat and watched all 4 other people on my team sit and beat on Abaddon all the way up to full health after his utli pops and completely ignore everyone else in the fight.
As far as the guy saying EQ:N is going to use terrain, etc? Yeah, i'll pass. Ring around the rosey MMO is not my cup of tea.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
SWG and Repop as far as I can see has a freeform class system (you can specialize or be a tanking healer, healing dpser or a Leroy amongst many other options) so using either as a example of a trinity game is comical considering the actual SWG, the one emulators are trying to recreate for over half a decade now, was closer to EVE-Online than WoW.
Repopulation has Action Mode... which turns it more into a FPS or TPS.
well i dont intend to focus on this game, but thanks to you i will keep an eye, in the same time i feel sorry you are step behind and prefer the old style, is like introducing the guns and you prefer the blades ...
I fail to see how preferring roles is a "step behind".. You must of missed various post in where it was shown that even in the 21st century, our military is ALL about roles and duties being performed by many.. I won't even go into professional sports roles, but when was the last time you saw 11 Quarterbacks take the field??
Same time I saw the coach get thrown off the team because he doesn't block, pass or receive and they only needed those 3 roles on the team.
Wow, you are a bit late to the show.
Since those class panels SoE has clarified what they meant by "no trinity". There will still be traditional roles, but they will work differently. Instead of a tank working on aggro and taunting creatures, the tank will work by disabling and blocking monster from reaching the more squishy party members. You still have tanks, but monsters wont simply focus on them, so tanks will have abilities to "control" monsters movement.
This is the case because their idea of emergeant AI means that creatures are a lot smarter then tank and spank in previous MMOs, they will change targets, react to the fight and players will have to do likewise. It sounds like a great thing, but no.. its not like the fail that guildwars 2 brought everyone.
Yeah that was my point a few days ago , I played MMO's for 11 years without a tank role , no taunts. So yeah we had healers and even a ranger could heal a bit in the first MMO. I haven't played Neverwinter , GW1 , Gw2 or tera but they sound a lot more interesting now. Maybe in PSU's case the fact you could have a party of 6 might have helped the non-trinity ( or non- Holy trinity ) ? Not sure but yeah people are so stuck in their ways that no trinity equals I won't play , very sad. You can't teach an old dog new tricks ? ( mentality )
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Excellent points... Many older MMO's that people commonly think as having the trinity system are not the same as the modern Trinity systems.
Go back and play on one of the many free servers and you will quickly learn that old school taunts were not guaranteed to hold aggro like today's games. Today if you are a tank and someone pulls aggro off you, it's assumed the game is flawed! Go play DAOC again and re-learn just how easy it is to grab aggro! So, you quickly learn to slow down and allow the fight to progress at a realistic pace. Plus, you it helps you manage your resources so you aren't sitting between each fight recuperating!
With over forty classes that you can learn skills from and mix and match, why is everyone so concerned about one stupid role, that never "really" existed until later versions of WOW made it possible to have tanks that were practically impossible to grab aggro from!
Take every game for what it offers, enjoy it until you don't and then move along!
Played Meridian 59, UO, EQ1, EQ2, WOW, DAOC, Asherons Call, AOC, Warhammer Online, GW1, GW2, Rift, Vanguard, etc....
Currently waiting for EQnext...
They claimed this for EQ2 also.
Completely untrue. They've always had the ability to make mobs unkillable, to make mobs attack the healer, and forget about the tank, to make mobs attack the DPS, and forget about everything else. They didn't because they want the game to be playable by a well balanced group. When trinity is gone, it's a zerg fest. I'm not saying I'm not going to play the game, but the technology wasn't there meme is completly false. They are building a game so a caster doesn't need to worry about finding a tank to do a dungeon. Fewer need for the right group balance means you can fly through the content which is what people want nowadays.
I believe that crowd control and support will take a much bigger role in eqn. Because of the way the AI works and the way the environments can be manipulated players will need to use more strategy than they have traditionally.
Want to protect the squishes from damage, put up a wall of stone between your group and the mob and have your warrior attack any mobs that get through, big bad melee mob heading for your caster, move your caster up off the ground and out of melee range.
That sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than: tank taunts mobs healer heals tank, dps kills mobs.
Without roles, and methods of control, all we'll end up with is mass chaotic zerfest where everyone is a tank,dps,CC, and healer wrapped in one.. Sorta like GW2..
Or maybe like D&D (pre 3rd edition.)
Assuming you look at how it was played, rather than how you can shoehorn it into the modern idea of a trinity.
I keep seeing posts that confuse trinity mechanics with roles.
It is not true that the end of taunting mechanics to hold aggro on a meat shield mean the end of roles. It simply means players will have to play differently.
I haven't played it in a while, but more difficult instances in DDO required players to utilize the environment and work together to finish the encounter. Sure, there were zones that in which everyone just zergged through, but, there were also encounters that were impossible to finish without a good healer, good crowd control, and well thought out tactics that utilized the environment. In other words, roles and tactics were critical in that game, and I liked it because there was no "Okay, everyone target through the tank" mechanics. It was for me, far more interesting.
This is not to say that there is anything wrong with Trinity mechanics. Hey, to each their own. But I'm glad EQN will move away from that., because I don't really enjoy that kind of encounter structure.
Roles still exist and they've made that clear. Seems many can't get around their comments of "no dedicated tanks or healers" and can't fathom any other way to play a game. To me they were talking about how those roles have performed, not about the roles themselves. No taunt spam or heal ui mini-game. Having XYZ isn't needed 100% of the time. Doesn't mean certain encounters won't benefit from having a tank-healer combo, but others might not need them at all.
Personally, I find support/CC classes/roles to be more challenging the the straight forward bore fest that tank-heal-dps has in most games. I hope they go for more strategy and in turn more need to communicate and work with others.
With what we know so far about classes, it seems highly unlikely to see any GW2 like solo-machine classes. They will most likely fall within a typical role and then have flexibility within it. Highly doubt a Warrior with 8 out of 12 abilities class locked is magically going to turn into a healing machine with the 4 secondary abilities, even if they all came from a Cleric.
Zerg/DPS mindless PVE only happens when content is designed that way. There are endless other options besides players and mobs trying to out dps each other like most games.
I'm not a real fan of Wildstar, but their approach to CC is refreshing. Multiple players having to time CC to bring down a mobs defense is great, as well as their take on disarm-blind-confuse, etc. DPS is only 1 part of combat, entire battles can be based around other elements.