Originally posted by ThomasN7 I definitely would love to see a PVE only mmo soley dedicated to pve type content. Nothing wrong with trying to be good at one thing at a time.
It already exists. It's 95% of the mmos ever made. Why do PvEers feel so entitled?
If a game forces even the tiniest amount of PvP on players, you'd think the world exploded. A wall of complaints will hit the forums the minute it is discovered. If there is a quest that requires a PvEer to step three feet into a pvp zone for 10 seconds, they'll be complaining.
Meanwhile, almost every game not only forces PvE. It forces hours and hours of it. Some games it takes months of PvE to even get to the real PvP. Do you hear us complaining?
If I have to take three thousand "Kill 10 mobs" quests. I think you'll be ok potentially having to PvP once a year.
gw2 and WoW let you level via PvP - so not sure about every game 'forcing' PvE. But setting that aside you aren't going to see a pure PVE game because its just not worth it to developers.
Its relatively easy to implement PvP once you have implemented an entire PvE game. Why not use that engine? It's like holding out for a Coffee shop that doesn't serve tea or hot chocolate.. Yeah they COULD do that buy why? Why not sell to the tea and hot chocolate drinkers?
gw2 and WoW let you level via PvP - so not sure about every game 'forcing' PvE. But setting that aside you aren't going to see a pure PVE game because its just not worth it to developers.
Its relatively easy to implement PvP once you have implemented an entire PvE game. Why not use that engine? It's like holding out for a Coffee shop that doesn't serve tea or hot chocolate.. Yeah they COULD do that buy why? Why not sell to the tea and hot chocolate drinkers?
Name one mmo where not one second of PvE is required to max your character, get the best gear, compete in the economy, and craft. Tutorials included. And no it doesn't count if someone else farms for you.
I'm speaking in absolutes because that's what PvEers do if one second of PvP is forced on them.
"Name one mmo where not one second of PvE is required to max your character, get the best gear, compete in the economy, and craft. Tutorials included. And no it doesn't count if someone else farms for you."
I already did - gw2 WvW. GW2 is like the MIata of MMOs. Not everyone likes it but it covers most enthusiast complaints.
gw2 and WoW let you level via PvP - so not sure about every game 'forcing' PvE. But setting that aside you aren't going to see a pure PVE game because its just not worth it to developers.
Its relatively easy to implement PvP once you have implemented an entire PvE game. Why not use that engine? It's like holding out for a Coffee shop that doesn't serve tea or hot chocolate.. Yeah they COULD do that buy why? Why not sell to the tea and hot chocolate drinkers?
Name one mmo where not one second of PvE is required to max your character, get the best gear, compete in the economy, and craft. Tutorials included. And no it doesn't count if someone else farms for you.
I'm speaking in absolutes because that's what PvEers do if one second of PvP is forced on them.
GW1, GW2, WAR(IIRC)
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
"A popular MMO doesn't discard 80% that plays. Blizzard is finding that out very harshly."
Huh? I have to say you confuse me. On the one hand you seem to have this deep love of Warcraft and think all the other MMOs suck. OTOH you seem angry about some mysterious thing that Blizzard did in the past and keep posting this graph as if it really mean't something signicant..
What did Blizzard do that discarded 80% (huh?where did you get that number).. WoW has discarded no one. They failed to invest signiciant money back into their MMO but that's a business decision..
PvEers are the most selfish mmo gamers out there. The second a pvp update comes out, they act like it's the end of the world.
Because what it does to games like WoW, with specific play style realms...
PvE
PvP
RP-PVE
RP-PVP
They're all separate because the play styles are different. RP is separate because most don't get into it, and it'll interfere with those used to MuDs and enforcing being "in character". It's further defined to RP-PvP, because RP-PvE players don't want to focus on PvE when tripping over daisies; and RP-PvP players want to BE Night Elves saving the race from traitors called Blood Elves!
And in WoW, the classes are NOT specific to PvE nor PvP. One change to benefit PvE raiders, can decimate PvP and vice versa.
PvE can always be artificially enhanced/nerfed with no backlash. The Lich King isn't going to cancel his sub if his Armor get's dropped by 3%.
And it's not like you ever hear PvE players complain that the game is too easy. Nope, never.
I highly doubt they're going to develop different mechanics, stats, etc. for each type of server.
I dunno. The mechanics *are* already slightly different (optional flag vs 'always on'), and they did create PvP stats. It's not *that* big a step from there to making server-wide distinctions.
Originally posted by Dihoru Really dude? Ok to use the same logic you use: PVE only games are Single player only games, have fun in the dozens of single player only games coming out just this year , I will be in all those lovely MMOs that have PVP even in terms of trading.
Ever hear of a cool mechanic called grouping? It exists in PvE MMOs.
What PvP does is affect the whole game, whether it is a primary, secondary, tertiary, or even a last second tack-on feature. Healers MUST be able to kill Warriors. Rogues get nerfed every other patch. Pet classes get fiddled with because of PvP.
Someone got their PvP in my PvE experience
The best part of PvE only MMOs is that the PvP dickwads steer clear of it and we're left with just the PvE dickwads
Originally posted by iridescence I can count the MMO games that PvP is an integral part of the gameplay on one hand. New games? WildStar? EverQuest Next?FFXIV? Neverwinter? Really everything recent except ESO and maybe Wushu is pretty PVE focused (not counting a few small Kickstarter games). If you're the type that just gets pissed off if a game has optional PVP even if you can totally avoid it I don't get that. Seems pretty immature to get mad because other people are enjoying themselves.
PvP affects PvE in MMOs. Balance is a tricky thing indeed and PvPers are quick to whine when one class bests them in a duel. PvEers also have a tendency to whine when one class does better in a raid/dungeon than others, but that is just intentional class imbalances.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
gw2 and WoW let you level via PvP - so not sure about every game 'forcing' PvE. But setting that aside you aren't going to see a pure PVE game because its just not worth it to developers.
Its relatively easy to implement PvP once you have implemented an entire PvE game. Why not use that engine? It's like holding out for a Coffee shop that doesn't serve tea or hot chocolate.. Yeah they COULD do that buy why? Why not sell to the tea and hot chocolate drinkers?
Name one mmo where not one second of PvE is required to max your character, get the best gear, compete in the economy, and craft. Tutorials included. And no it doesn't count if someone else farms for you.
Eve. At least; if you accept that a player-driven market is essentially more akin to PvP than PvE.
Of course, some of it is drastically easier to do if you do engage in at least some PvE, so I doubt anyone's actually gone the whole way. But it's at least theoretically possible.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 I definitely would love to see a PVE only mmo soley dedicated to pve type content. Nothing wrong with trying to be good at one thing at a time.
It already exists. It's 95% of the mmos ever made. Why do PvEers feel so entitled?
If a game forces even the tiniest amount of PvP on players, you'd think the world exploded. A wall of complaints will hit the forums the minute it is discovered. If there is a quest that requires a PvEer to step three feet into a pvp zone for 10 seconds, they'll be complaining.
Meanwhile, almost every game not only forces PvE. It forces hours and hours of it. Some games it takes months of PvE to even get to the real PvP. Do you hear us complaining?
If I have to take three thousand "Kill 10 mobs" quests. I think you'll be ok potentially having to PvP once a year.
I didn't get it at first either, took me about 6 post in to realize what was going on in here.
At first I was like: What do you mean PvEers get the shaft, most mmos spend far more resources on PvE than PvP and on half the servers you can completely opt out of PvP.
Then I realized what this thread was about. This is where PvEers come to fantasize about how awesome their PvE experience would be if there were zero PvP in game.
Considering that PvE already gets the lions share of development resource there would only be small increase in additional content and there would be no class balancing for PvP... even after years of PvEing and PvPing I never realized that PvP balancing which usually has little to no impact on PvE performance was ruining some peoples PvE experience simply by having to share a game with people who wanted to PvP, who knew?
I don't think there is PvP only mmorpg. Most mmorpgs in the market have the combination of PvE & PvP. It wouldn't be called a mmorpg if there is no PvE content. As for PvE only, I can't remember anything besides Monster Hunter Online, and perhaps Mabinogi.
My current game of choice is Guild Wars 2. Almost every balance change they make is rooted in PvP and has pushed PvE further and further in to a pure DPS meta. At this point, CC and condition damage, because they are so much more powerful against players, have become all but useless in the PvE portions of the game because of balancing. Even in a game who's predecessor admitted that the two needed to be balanced completely separately. PvP can definitely have a negative impact on an MMORPG, even for those who never participate in it.
So the PvP crowd has won over every graphically beautiful mmorpg in existence. As a PvE only gamer I have absolutely no mmo for me. None. Nada. Zip. Nothing out there that looks good caters to a PvE minded player. PvP players have managed to get their loud way and stomp us PvE'rs off the map. No company will even attempt to make a PvE only mmorpg now. You crushed us, stomped on our carcass, and ran away laughing the victors. Ten years from now no one is going to remember what the initials P v E stood for.
Neverwinter is actually best PvE MMO i have ever played.
Good picture, good story and you don't need to sociolize with kids to complete foundrys and so on.
So many of these arguments are based on WoW and similar games. Stop arguing your point based on limitations or mechanics SOME games have when it comes to PvE/PvP.
This is the reason we aren't understanding each other. You think mmo's = the current formula and nothing else. I think of an mmo as a world the players create. Where there is little to no difference between NPCs and players.
You seem to think that another player is just some guy playing the same game as you. I think of other players as part of the game world and therefore part of my game experience.
Originally posted by imsoenthused My current game of choice is Guild Wars 2. Almost every balance change they make is rooted in PvP and has pushed PvE further and further in to a pure DPS meta. At this point, CC and condition damage, because they are so much more powerful against players, have become all but useless in the PvE portions of the game because of balancing. Even in a game who's predecessor admitted that the two needed to be balanced completely separately. PvP can definitely have a negative impact on an MMORPG, even for those who never participate in it.
You know why they do that? -It is because if PvP is not balanced, there is no PvP. It is much more sensitive to imbalances than PvE. That is why balance choices generally favor PvP.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Horusra Having to balance pvp so it is all balanced instead of rock paper scissors does screw up pve. Instead of having unique abilities you instead all have the same abilities with different graphics and names.
No, changing things based on PvP balance only screws up PvEers because they aren't able to meta game and adapt like PvPers. I'm sorry, but the most finely tuned characters with the most optimized setup is always going to PvP.
I've never met a good PvPer who had trouble with PvE. Games are full of good PvEers who are absolutely horrid at PvP.
It's less to do with combat difficulty and more to do with having fun abilities that might unbalance things in PvP. No one said PvE combat was so challenging, but I doubt that's why most PvE players play PvE. I do like challenge, but I also like class to have some spice/flavor that is unique. For instance Shamans in Everquest had shrink/grow spells, enchanters could turn themselves into various illusions/cast spells to allow access to certain factions, druids could teleport/turn into a wolf/turn into a tree/levitate. Mostly it's just fun stuff, but it could also be used to gain an advantage in many situations.
Originally posted by Rupskul I assume you are not a fan of Final Fantasy? FFXIV is clearly PVE-focused. The PVP is fun, but not a part of the larger game at all.
I play FFXIV-ARR and the "PvP crowd" is waiting on an expansion promised to them to turn FFXIV-ARR into a PvP game.
"What PvP does is affect the whole game, whether it is a primary, secondary, tertiary, or even a last second tack-on feature. Healers MUST be able to kill Warriors. Rogues get nerfed every other patch. Pet classes get fiddled with because of PvP."
Nice story. Cept developers can just flag combat as PvP and use different rulesets. For example CC suffers huge diminishing returns in WoW pvp. It still works full duration in PvE. In GW2 you do way less damage to PC then you do mobs - everyone has alot of built in toughness.
Changes in PVE do not have to affect PVP at all - and vice versa. WoW tries hard to keep things similiar - but other games do not. Its all up the developers.
Originally posted by GuyClinch "What PvP does is affect the whole game, whether it is a primary, secondary, tertiary, or even a last second tack-on feature. Healers MUST be able to kill Warriors. Rogues get nerfed every other patch. Pet classes get fiddled with because of PvP."Nice story. Cept developers can just flag combat as PvP and use different rulesets. For example CC suffers huge diminishing returns in WoW pvp. It still works full duration in PvE. In GW2 you do way less damage to PC then you do mobs - everyone has alot of built in toughness.Changes in PVE do not have to affect PVP at all - and vice versa. WoW tries hard to keep things similiar - but other games do not. Its all up the developers.
Sure they can, but do they? It is a rare thing if they do. Even having separate servers does not separate PvP mechanics from PvE mechanics.
Basically, it sounds like players want developers to create 2 versions of the game. Really?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by GuyClinch "What PvP does is affect the whole game, whether it is a primary, secondary, tertiary, or even a last second tack-on feature. Healers MUST be able to kill Warriors. Rogues get nerfed every other patch. Pet classes get fiddled with because of PvP."
Nice story. Cept developers can just flag combat as PvP and use different rulesets. For example CC suffers huge diminishing returns in WoW pvp. It still works full duration in PvE. In GW2 you do way less damage to PC then you do mobs - everyone has alot of built in toughness.
Changes in PVE do not have to affect PVP at all - and vice versa. WoW tries hard to keep things similiar - but other games do not. Its all up the developers.
Sure they can, but do they? It is a rare thing if they do. Even having separate servers does not separate PvP mechanics from PvE mechanics.
Basically, it sounds like players want developers to create 2 versions of the game. Really?
Not really, they just want skills tweaked for PvP and PvE independently. Which helps with most of the balancing issues mentioned above. Not that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things.
But yeah, I agree many devs don't do it, which puts them in a tough spot long term, because the balancing problems WILL arise.
This is really a lazy game-design or budgeting issue, not an inherent unsolvable problem with having PvP and PvE in a game.
Comments
It already exists. It's 95% of the mmos ever made. Why do PvEers feel so entitled?
If a game forces even the tiniest amount of PvP on players, you'd think the world exploded. A wall of complaints will hit the forums the minute it is discovered. If there is a quest that requires a PvEer to step three feet into a pvp zone for 10 seconds, they'll be complaining.
Meanwhile, almost every game not only forces PvE. It forces hours and hours of it. Some games it takes months of PvE to even get to the real PvP. Do you hear us complaining?
If I have to take three thousand "Kill 10 mobs" quests. I think you'll be ok potentially having to PvP once a year.
The Official God FAQ
gw2 and WoW let you level via PvP - so not sure about every game 'forcing' PvE. But setting that aside you aren't going to see a pure PVE game because its just not worth it to developers.
Its relatively easy to implement PvP once you have implemented an entire PvE game. Why not use that engine? It's like holding out for a Coffee shop that doesn't serve tea or hot chocolate.. Yeah they COULD do that buy why? Why not sell to the tea and hot chocolate drinkers?
Name one mmo where not one second of PvE is required to max your character, get the best gear, compete in the economy, and craft. Tutorials included. And no it doesn't count if someone else farms for you.
I'm speaking in absolutes because that's what PvEers do if one second of PvP is forced on them.
The Official God FAQ
What do you expect if devs forced you to raid every time you need a weapon and/or trinket?
Run to the forums and whine about it being, "unfair!!!", because of being forced to do PvE content?
Because that is exactly what happens every time Blizzard adds a BiS item for both PvE and PvP in raids.
No one likes it, because forcing people to do things and asking them to pay for it, is a double negative.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
"Name one mmo where not one second of PvE is required to max your character, get the best gear, compete in the economy, and craft. Tutorials included. And no it doesn't count if someone else farms for you."
I already did - gw2 WvW. GW2 is like the MIata of MMOs. Not everyone likes it but it covers most enthusiast complaints.
GW1, GW2, WAR(IIRC)
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"A popular MMO doesn't discard 80% that plays. Blizzard is finding that out very harshly."
Huh? I have to say you confuse me. On the one hand you seem to have this deep love of Warcraft and think all the other MMOs suck. OTOH you seem angry about some mysterious thing that Blizzard did in the past and keep posting this graph as if it really mean't something signicant..
What did Blizzard do that discarded 80% (huh?where did you get that number).. WoW has discarded no one. They failed to invest signiciant money back into their MMO but that's a business decision..
And it's not like you ever hear PvE players complain that the game is too easy. Nope, never.
I dunno. The mechanics *are* already slightly different (optional flag vs 'always on'), and they did create PvP stats. It's not *that* big a step from there to making server-wide distinctions.
What PvP does is affect the whole game, whether it is a primary, secondary, tertiary, or even a last second tack-on feature. Healers MUST be able to kill Warriors. Rogues get nerfed every other patch. Pet classes get fiddled with because of PvP.
Someone got their PvP in my PvE experience
The best part of PvE only MMOs is that the PvP dickwads steer clear of it and we're left with just the PvE dickwads
PvP affects PvE in MMOs. Balance is a tricky thing indeed and PvPers are quick to whine when one class bests them in a duel. PvEers also have a tendency to whine when one class does better in a raid/dungeon than others, but that is just intentional class imbalances.- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Eve. At least; if you accept that a player-driven market is essentially more akin to PvP than PvE.
Of course, some of it is drastically easier to do if you do engage in at least some PvE, so I doubt anyone's actually gone the whole way. But it's at least theoretically possible.I didn't get it at first either, took me about 6 post in to realize what was going on in here.
At first I was like: What do you mean PvEers get the shaft, most mmos spend far more resources on PvE than PvP and on half the servers you can completely opt out of PvP.
Then I realized what this thread was about. This is where PvEers come to fantasize about how awesome their PvE experience would be if there were zero PvP in game.
Considering that PvE already gets the lions share of development resource there would only be small increase in additional content and there would be no class balancing for PvP... even after years of PvEing and PvPing I never realized that PvP balancing which usually has little to no impact on PvE performance was ruining some peoples PvE experience simply by having to share a game with people who wanted to PvP, who knew?
Neverwinter is actually best PvE MMO i have ever played.
Good picture, good story and you don't need to sociolize with kids to complete foundrys and so on.
So many of these arguments are based on WoW and similar games. Stop arguing your point based on limitations or mechanics SOME games have when it comes to PvE/PvP.
This is the reason we aren't understanding each other. You think mmo's = the current formula and nothing else. I think of an mmo as a world the players create. Where there is little to no difference between NPCs and players.
You seem to think that another player is just some guy playing the same game as you. I think of other players as part of the game world and therefore part of my game experience.
Seriously. Play something other than themeparks.
The Official God FAQ
You know why they do that? -It is because if PvP is not balanced, there is no PvP. It is much more sensitive to imbalances than PvE. That is why balance choices generally favor PvP.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It's less to do with combat difficulty and more to do with having fun abilities that might unbalance things in PvP. No one said PvE combat was so challenging, but I doubt that's why most PvE players play PvE. I do like challenge, but I also like class to have some spice/flavor that is unique. For instance Shamans in Everquest had shrink/grow spells, enchanters could turn themselves into various illusions/cast spells to allow access to certain factions, druids could teleport/turn into a wolf/turn into a tree/levitate. Mostly it's just fun stuff, but it could also be used to gain an advantage in many situations.
I play FFXIV-ARR and the "PvP crowd" is waiting on an expansion promised to them to turn FFXIV-ARR into a PvP game.
"What PvP does is affect the whole game, whether it is a primary, secondary, tertiary, or even a last second tack-on feature. Healers MUST be able to kill Warriors. Rogues get nerfed every other patch. Pet classes get fiddled with because of PvP."
Nice story. Cept developers can just flag combat as PvP and use different rulesets. For example CC suffers huge diminishing returns in WoW pvp. It still works full duration in PvE. In GW2 you do way less damage to PC then you do mobs - everyone has alot of built in toughness.
Changes in PVE do not have to affect PVP at all - and vice versa. WoW tries hard to keep things similiar - but other games do not. Its all up the developers.
Basically, it sounds like players want developers to create 2 versions of the game. Really?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Not really, they just want skills tweaked for PvP and PvE independently. Which helps with most of the balancing issues mentioned above. Not that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things.
But yeah, I agree many devs don't do it, which puts them in a tough spot long term, because the balancing problems WILL arise.
This is really a lazy game-design or budgeting issue, not an inherent unsolvable problem with having PvP and PvE in a game.