Until we see a truly successful Kickstarter game launched and supported for over a year, there's really no reason to get your hopes up on these types of projects.
In many cases, the founders get so much stuff for free that there's very little chance for these companies to have any significant revenue stream at launch which is when they will need the money for infrastructure and support, particularly for an MMO.
Some would argue that once the MMO is launched, people will buy retail copies but let's be honest, most of the Kickstarter MMO's are focusing on niche audiences, most of whom will be getting a copy of the game with their 'donation' so that's a pipe dream.
Also as far as I know, no company pm'ed me a contract on these forums to be a lead design for a game, despite my unique knowledge and exceptional experience with gaming through my entire life...Tip for investors, you won't find the brilliant minds at your doorsteps asking to be funded to develop your projects. You look for them because most brilliant minds already have $ and are too busy enjoying their lives to bother wasting their time developing a game in first place. Of course with the right negotitioning, determination, timing and price I could be persuaded.
Anyways, I gave my two cents about kickstarters.
I know that if I was an investor, I wouldn't bother going to places like kickstarter, where people have show their idea to get funding. Rather, I would scour the forums of various websites, looking for a self-proclaimed brilliant mind, to hand my money to so they could come up with... ... something. Cause that is what smart investors do.
Please, share with us more life-skills tips, and thank you for the ones you've already brought to the forum.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Topic? You made a statement, not a topic. You gave no willingness to listen/discuss, only your advice to be smart like you, and not dumb like you see other people. That and kickstarter people are crooks/dishonest and non-talented, it is a foolish business, backed by fools.
The point of games are to enjoy yourself with them, within your means, so no one should spend money on anything if they cannot afford it or risk it. I can afford the $45 I have given a kickstarter, and the maybe 2-3 games a year I buy. If 5-6 games come out that I want, or even 10, I can afford it, and I will do what makes sense for me.
It is pretty ignorant to tell everyone they need to live like you do, and to tell them they are not smart, if they don't.
Originally posted by Ginaz While I'm not as militant as the OP is concerning Kickstarters, I have certain criteria that has to be met before I'd consider giving money. The only KS I've ever given money to has been for Hex: Shards of Fate, and MMO TCG. The reasons I gave money was: 1) it was from a company that has years of experience with TCGs and was already financially and critically successful and 2) they had a playable version of the game to show. If it was from some random dude I'd never heard of or the game existed in concept only (*cough*Pantheon*cough*) or was years away from being available (looking at you CU/SotA, Hex has had thousands of people playing its alpha for months already) I would never have spent any money on it.
Hex also had an estimated release date in September 2013 and is still very much in alpha and probably is close to another year away from a full release... I backed it also.
The alpha was set for release in Sept. 2013, not beta or final release. It was a few weeks late but most backers were in by mid Nov. after the staggered invite process that began in early Oct.
Actually no, the official release was set for that, because that's when they stated you will receive all rewards for Hex. I still haven't received all my rewards and won't until release. The date you post on the Kickstarter is when you are suppose to receive all your rewards.
They actually did expect the game to release in Sept 2013 (the alpha was scheduled for early August initially) which is pretty crazy all things considered. If you look at their team, while they have experience in physical TCGs they don't quite have experience in video game development which I would attribute to their poor estimates.
I'd rather throw money at a kickstarter game than some corporation owned mess. Devs make games that they want to play instead of some marketing teams concept of what sells. Games are art!
Firstly, thx for all the replays, trying to share your views and insight on the kickstarter concept...now back on topic.
To all who defend kickstarter as a donation/charity cause. Donation/charity causes as far as I know do not use your money afterwards to "make more money" for personal benefits.
Some might argue the statement "people without the $ are unworthy to develop the project". Truth is if they were worthy in first place they would have publishers/investors backing them, but of course people can believe whatever makes them feel better to justify the fact that they are considered a "bad investment" in the views of those with real power/word/saying, also known as those with money in their wallets.
Finally, if something that I want does not exist out there, I'm not going to throw $ and hope it happens. If I lived in a world with "zombies" or "monkeys" where they all either entertain themself dancing around a fire or throwing rocks at each other I would simply create my own entertainment or find reasons to enjoy their entertainment. If they can enjoy it, surely I can as well...
Bottom line is...some already have stated in this thread what I pointed out, some of the types of people involved in "kickstarter" projects. I mean seriosly, if I had 30 million that I choose to spend on a ticket to space just so afterwards I came to ask $ from the public to fund my 1 million project that I intend to make further money afterwards...how more low can you get than that?
Do yourself a favor and be smart with your $ the way I've been since it's our only way we can truly express what we want and as mentioned before despite having so much experience with gaming in the last 3+ years I've spent $0.00 because everything that was released was not aimed at me and I've found other ways to enjoy life in meantime....and save far more $ in the process.
I never said it was a charity. Donation and charity are two different things. A donation is just a gift, it doesn't have to be for charity. I can donate money to a friend to help them get back on their feet or start a business which they can use to make further profit and I wouldn't expect to receive profit back, but maybe they'll give me something in return. That's kind of how Kickstarter works. It's neither a charity nor an investment.
Publishers and investors take creative control away from companies, especially the big ones like EA. We all know how EA tends to buy up studios and they start producing lower quality games as a result due to EA's control (Westwood, Maxis, even Bioware). Many of these games are niche or so risky that publishers and investors won't take a chance on them, yet the end result is they are great games that make more than enough money to support the developers and justify making the game.
People don't have a right to dictate how others spend their money (as long as it's legal). If I want to spend my money on a promise of something later, which often delivers (but as I said Kickstarter is always a gamble) then I have the right to do so. I haven't really been disappointed to the point I won't do it yet. One failure out of 25 isn't exactly bad odds. I personally have many smart decisions with my money (I have loads of investments that have paid off and work a job that pays well) and to be perfectly honest have more money than I'll ever need to live happily so tossing money to Kickstarter. I don't around telling people they shouldn't be dropping $4k on large screen TVs because that seems completely pointless to me and a waste of money.
I rather agree with the OP, and it's more or less the reason I haven't backed any KS projects, even those I've seen as promising.
The only "garantee" you have is that KS won't release your funding unless the project reaches their minimum goal. Past that, there's no promise you'll get anything at all.
It's more or less akin to being a patron of the arts, and for art I don't really have an issue with it. You don't expect a return on your investment, you don't really expect a product (unless you happen to put the artist on commission).
If they were going for traditional funding - venture capital or a loan or however else, the game itself takes a back seat to the business model. They have to sell that the risk of loss is appropriate to the expected return, and the numbers you use have to be realistic, and preferably historically proven.
If a project is coming in with a game, that game needs to include a business plan as part of the KS package. Most game projects in particular focus on the game and how great the game will be, and barely touch on the business plan to make that game sustainable (particularly MMO projects that need support long after their initial release). If they are wanting my money as part of that initial capital in the business plan, then I don't see myself as a patron, I'm an investor. I would expect some sort of return, and I haven't seen any KS project actually offer anything like that. A pre-release copy of an unfinished product doesn't really excite me, and if I really want to play the game and support it, I'll buy it once it's finished and released - and that's supporting the developers as much as anything.
Firstly, thx for all the replays, trying to share your views and insight on the kickstarter concept...now back on topic.
To all who defend kickstarter as a donation/charity cause. Donation/charity causes as far as I know do not use your money afterwards to "make more money" for personal benefits.
Some might argue the statement "people without the $ are unworthy to develop the project". Truth is if they were worthy in first place they would have publishers/investors backing them, but of course people can believe whatever makes them feel better to justify the fact that they are considered a "bad investment" in the views of those with real power/word/saying, also known as those with money in their wallets.
Finally, if something that I want does not exist out there, I'm not going to throw $ and hope it happens. If I lived in a world with "zombies" or "monkeys" where they all either entertain themself dancing around a fire or throwing rocks at each other I would simply create my own entertainment or find reasons to enjoy their entertainment. If they can enjoy it, surely I can as well...
Bottom line is...some already have stated in this thread what I pointed out, some of the types of people involved in "kickstarter" projects. I mean seriosly, if I had 30 million that I choose to spend on a ticket to space just so afterwards I came to ask $ from the public to fund my 1 million project that I intend to make further money afterwards...how more low can you get than that?
Do yourself a favor and be smart with your $ the way I've been since it's our only way we can truly express what we want and as mentioned before despite having so much experience with gaming in the last 3+ years I've spent $0.00 because everything that was released was not aimed at me and I've found other ways to enjoy life in meantime....and save far more $ in the process.
To be brutally honest with you, if we waited on investors and publishers to back games with the creative vision that you're looking for, it wouldn't happen.
Publishers aren't interested in niche games, neither are investors. Here's the biggest problem that indie developers face. Let me tell you about the greatest chocolate bar that you'll ever taste. Think about a Mars bar, but then add in a layer of bacon and a dusting of 24K gold dust so your crap is literally golden! Nestle is never going to buy this, even if it was the greatest thing ever. The market is too small and why would someone buy this chocolate bar for $30 when they could buy a regular old Mars bar for $1?
However, there are people who will buy it. There are healthy niche markets for this type of a product, but no big corporation or investor will EVER put money into it because the returns are simply not there. They want 300, 400, 500% returns and they want it quickly.
Your tagline says you like SWG. Well Kickstarter produced The Repopulation which is arguably the spiritual successor to SWG (even though Smed would beg to differ). These guys have an actual product. It's going to be released. Will it release on their actual schedule? No, that was November 2013, but it's in late Alpha, so at least there is progression. Even if it's a year late, we're talking about people with a small team who aren't aware of the risks involved with their project, necessarily. We're so quick to give publishers a break when their games miss the estimated date, but publishers also don't have to declare a delivery date up front, when they first start the project. Kickstarter you do. So it's actually rather remarkable to me that a game on as massive a scale as The Repopulation will be, maybe, 6 months to a year behind schedule. Yes, they have also gone back to the funding well, but this is no different than any development project either. Look at Vangard. They got to the point where they actually pulled the plug on it.
I will admit that most Kickstarters seem to ship late, but I have heard very few instances of a project not being delivered at all. I'll be more than happy to concede that point, though, if someone has some examples (of a project that asked for more than like $10K funding).
Kickstarter has a few safety nets to prevent people from scamming, and to ensure people actually begin work on their project and meet deadlines. You can't just put out a kick-starter, get money, and not do anything.
But you don't have to guarantee to actually release a product. And what if people do nothing, KS is going to sue them?
Yes, Kickstarter will sue them on your behalf. The "legal-ese" fine-print is massive, and they have a precedent of doing exactly that.
Any examples of successful judgment that gives back all your money?
Suing, and even winning lawsuits, do not mean that you can collect. It seems a lot of hassle as "protection". Much easier just to ignore KS, for me, of course.
Firstly, thx for all the replays, trying to share your views and insight on the kickstarter concept...now back on topic.
To all who defend kickstarter as a donation/charity cause. Donation/charity causes as far as I know do not use your money afterwards to "make more money" for personal benefits.
Some might argue the statement "people without the $ are unworthy to develop the project". Truth is if they were worthy in first place they would have publishers/investors backing them, but of course people can believe whatever makes them feel better to justify the fact that they are considered a "bad investment" in the views of those with real power/word/saying, also known as those with money in their wallets.
Finally, if something that I want does not exist out there, I'm not going to throw $ and hope it happens. If I lived in a world with "zombies" or "monkeys" where they all either entertain themself dancing around a fire or throwing rocks at each other I would simply create my own entertainment or find reasons to enjoy their entertainment. If they can enjoy it, surely I can as well...
Bottom line is...some already have stated in this thread what I pointed out, some of the types of people involved in "kickstarter" projects. I mean seriosly, if I had 30 million that I choose to spend on a ticket to space just so afterwards I came to ask $ from the public to fund my 1 million project that I intend to make further money afterwards...how more low can you get than that?
Do yourself a favor and be smart with your $ the way I've been since it's our only way we can truly express what we want and as mentioned before despite having so much experience with gaming in the last 3+ years I've spent $0.00 because everything that was released was not aimed at me and I've found other ways to enjoy life in meantime....and save far more $ in the process.
OP by your same logic, works such as those by Michelangelo and J.S. Bach simply wouldn't exist. The basic concept behind how Kickstarter works, patronage, is not a new concept but a very old one and has been responsible for some of the worlds greatest artists and works of art....many of whom started out as being not commercialy viable or even failures initialy.
It's very simple, there is a very strong disconnect between what an investor might think makes a strong return on thier investment and what a patron might think make a good creative work. Heck there is even a rather strong discconect between what traditional investers percieve might make a good return and what actualy makes a good return. If there wasn't we wouldn't see so many penny stocks floating around.
Bottom line creating something which is a good quality creative work that can satisfy a particular market and be a commercialy viable business (e.g. make enough money to pay the bills) is vastly different then creating something which is percieved by a traditional investor to have high assurance of a 25 percent return on principle per annum with X degree of liquidity some solid assets to act as collateral in order to recoup some degree of loss and/or someone to sue if the whole thing turns south.....not to mention that upto a couple years ago you could NOT legaly invest in any private venture unless you held something like 1.5 million dollars in liquid assets. Federal law prohibited it.
Crowdfunding is actualy great because it allows people to bundle together minimal sums that with the sheer volume of people involved add up to something significant enough to get a work done. $5 is nothing to me. I can easly drop that in some street performers hat if I like what they are playing, but I would never invest 500K in something as risky as an MMO. However before Kickstarter I had absolutely no venue for dropping $5 in a game makers hat.....and I could NOT legaly invest that amount even if I wanted to do so. Now under Kickstarter, me and 100K other people can take our $5 donations drop it in a game makers hat.....and they have a significant amount that they can use toward funding a game....furthermore, they can demonstrate to a more traditional investor that they have an audience of at least 100K people interested in the product enough to donate some money....something that would have been impossible to demonstrate before.
There actually was a game recently that failed to be made. The guy claims it's due to medical issues etc. But that makes me wonder, if he is telling the truth, does that mean he's spending the Kickstarter money on medical bills? If not, what happened to the money?
The cynic in me thinks he's just lying. What better way to get away with it? Tell everyone you have some vague family/medical issues and you're really sorry etc etc. Everyone is too busy feeling sorry for him to even consider if he's just running away with their money.
Same. No Kickstarters. Only finished products. Sorry but I like well established companies, with investors, who know how to run a business. Their fingers are in more than one pie and they are not going under on my time.
There actually was a game recently that failed to be made. The guy claims it's due to medical issues etc. But that makes me wonder, if he is telling the truth, does that mean he's spending the Kickstarter money on medical bills? If not, what happened to the money?
The cynic in me thinks he's just lying. What better way to get away with it? Tell everyone you have some vague family/medical issues and you're really sorry etc etc. Everyone is too busy feeling sorry for him to even consider if he's just running away with their money.
It does not matter whether it is true or not ... in either case, no game is made.
So what if he is sick, if he wants people to donate money for his medical bills, ask for money for medical bills, not ask for money for a game.
Obviously KS opens up the possibility to fraud, but even without any lying, i don't want to pay for whatever bad luck that cause my money to go down the drain.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Same. No Kickstarters. Only finished products. Sorry but I like well established companies, with investors, who know how to run a business. Their fingers are in more than one pie and they are not going under on my time.
Like SWTOR? or Warhammer? or adding CU expansion to SWG?
There actually was a game recently that failed to be made. The guy claims it's due to medical issues etc. But that makes me wonder, if he is telling the truth, does that mean he's spending the Kickstarter money on medical bills? If not, what happened to the money?
The cynic in me thinks he's just lying. What better way to get away with it? Tell everyone you have some vague family/medical issues and you're really sorry etc etc. Everyone is too busy feeling sorry for him to even consider if he's just running away with their money.
It does not matter whether it is true or not ... in either case, no game is made.
So what if he is sick, if he wants people to donate money for his medical bills, ask for money for medical bills, not ask for money for a game.
Obviously KS opens up the possibility to fraud, but even without any lying, i don't want to pay for whatever bad luck that cause my money to go down the drain.
Hence, i will never spend a dime on KS.
In all fairness you are absolutely right. It's like I tell people at work who say things like "I shouldn't have to work that shift cause I have a kid or I take the bus etc" your situation really isn't a factor. Otherwise everyones situation becomes a factor, and what if everyone took the bus or had kids etc? Does no one have to work the late shift/early shift whichever. Not exactly the same but made me think of that.
People always have excuses and that's my point I guess. The excuse doesn't matter, just the result.
There actually was a game recently that failed to be made. The guy claims it's due to medical issues etc. But that makes me wonder, if he is telling the truth, does that mean he's spending the Kickstarter money on medical bills? If not, what happened to the money?
The cynic in me thinks he's just lying. What better way to get away with it? Tell everyone you have some vague family/medical issues and you're really sorry etc etc. Everyone is too busy feeling sorry for him to even consider if he's just running away with their money.
It does not matter whether it is true or not ... in either case, no game is made.
So what if he is sick, if he wants people to donate money for his medical bills, ask for money for medical bills, not ask for money for a game.
Obviously KS opens up the possibility to fraud, but even without any lying, i don't want to pay for whatever bad luck that cause my money to go down the drain.
Hence, i will never spend a dime on KS.
In all fairness you are absolutely right. It's like I tell people at work who say things like "I shouldn't have to work that shift cause I have a kid or I take the bus etc" your situation really isn't a factor. Otherwise everyones situation becomes a factor, and what if everyone took the bus or had kids etc? Does no one have to work the late shift/early shift whichever. Not exactly the same but made me think of that.
People always have excuses and that's my point I guess. The excuse doesn't matter, just the result.
i dunno...we'd live in a calmer more sanely paced world where children weren't turned into latchkey kids at too early an age and their parents could actually spend a little more time raising them properly rather than worrying whether the rent gets paid?
p.s. children are not an excuse. i don't care if you know someone who knew someone who abused that this one awful time. that's nothing compared to the millions of parents who don't use it as an excuse.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
i dunno...we'd live in a calmer more sanely paced world where children weren't turned into latchkey kids at too early an age and their parents could actually spend a little more time raising them properly rather than worrying whether the rent gets paid?
Well, i really don't care if devs have kids or not. If so, it is their responsibility to properly raise them, not mine.
So again, i only care if a game is produced (if my money is involved, although once again, i don't KS), and the reasoning of failure is irrelevant.
Originally posted by plat0nic scammers gonna scam. I'd just Be smarter with your kickstart money in the future... stick to teams you know have a pedigree for success
Firstly, thx for all the replays, trying to share your views and insight on the kickstarter concept...now back on topic.
To all who defend kickstarter as a donation/charity cause. Donation/charity causes as far as I know do not use your money afterwards to "make more money" for personal benefits.
Some might argue the statement "people without the $ are unworthy to develop the project". Truth is if they were worthy in first place they would have publishers/investors backing them, but of course people can believe whatever makes them feel better to justify the fact that they are considered a "bad investment" in the views of those with real power/word/saying, also known as those with money in their wallets.
There's the rub. "Real power." This is the power that lets EA, the most hated corp in the gaming industry (and in the top 25 overall, last I checked) pull the shit that it does.
Kickstarter (and crowdfunding in general) is a threat to that power if it works out. It says to investors and publishers "You don't get to dictate what's 'worthy' or not anymore, because we don't need you like we used to." It lets those who'd otherwise have to take a bad deal to get started on the project that proves themselves 'worthy' of a good deal, and it lets those who've been burned by the publishers go around them.
It's also a place where folks like me, who claim we'd pay happily premium fees for the niche games (that would otherwisse get canned for being "not marketable enough') can put our money where our mouth is.
Do yourself a favor and be smart with your $ the way I've been since it's our only way we can truly express what we want and as mentioned before despite having so much experience with gaming in the last 3+ years I've spent $0.00 because everything that was released was not aimed at me and I've found other ways to enjoy life in meantime....and save far more $ in the process.
Originally posted by plat0nic scammers gonna scam. I'd just Be smarter with your kickstart money in the future... stick to teams you know have a pedigree for success
Nah ... i would say not to KS is better.
Good...people like you and the OP shouldn't use KS. You shouldn't use it because you are very happy with many games out on the market right now so buying finished games is a much less risky purchase for you. The OP shouldn't use it because (s)he doesn't understand how it works at all and thinks it is an investment or charity.
Kickstarter is good for a certain type of person who has disposable income and is not satisfied with the products currently on the market and understands the risks involved. Everyone else should just ignore it as it doesn't effect you one bit if you don't use it.
That's the problem, Kickstarter doesn't produce investors, investors are financially involved with the game, what they say has weight with the developer because they can pull their money any time they want if the developer doesn't do what they want. KS doesn't allow you to do that. You buy in and while you can take your money back at any time before it funds, you have no weight whatsoever with the developer. They do what they want to do and you can pay them for it or you can't, but there's no control on your part over the product they produce.
Comments
Until we see a truly successful Kickstarter game launched and supported for over a year, there's really no reason to get your hopes up on these types of projects.
In many cases, the founders get so much stuff for free that there's very little chance for these companies to have any significant revenue stream at launch which is when they will need the money for infrastructure and support, particularly for an MMO.
Some would argue that once the MMO is launched, people will buy retail copies but let's be honest, most of the Kickstarter MMO's are focusing on niche audiences, most of whom will be getting a copy of the game with their 'donation' so that's a pipe dream.
I know that if I was an investor, I wouldn't bother going to places like kickstarter, where people have show their idea to get funding. Rather, I would scour the forums of various websites, looking for a self-proclaimed brilliant mind, to hand my money to so they could come up with... ... something. Cause that is what smart investors do.
Please, share with us more life-skills tips, and thank you for the ones you've already brought to the forum.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Topic? You made a statement, not a topic. You gave no willingness to listen/discuss, only your advice to be smart like you, and not dumb like you see other people. That and kickstarter people are crooks/dishonest and non-talented, it is a foolish business, backed by fools.
The point of games are to enjoy yourself with them, within your means, so no one should spend money on anything if they cannot afford it or risk it. I can afford the $45 I have given a kickstarter, and the maybe 2-3 games a year I buy. If 5-6 games come out that I want, or even 10, I can afford it, and I will do what makes sense for me.
It is pretty ignorant to tell everyone they need to live like you do, and to tell them they are not smart, if they don't.
Actually no, the official release was set for that, because that's when they stated you will receive all rewards for Hex. I still haven't received all my rewards and won't until release. The date you post on the Kickstarter is when you are suppose to receive all your rewards.
They actually did expect the game to release in Sept 2013 (the alpha was scheduled for early August initially) which is pretty crazy all things considered. If you look at their team, while they have experience in physical TCGs they don't quite have experience in video game development which I would attribute to their poor estimates.
I never said it was a charity. Donation and charity are two different things. A donation is just a gift, it doesn't have to be for charity. I can donate money to a friend to help them get back on their feet or start a business which they can use to make further profit and I wouldn't expect to receive profit back, but maybe they'll give me something in return. That's kind of how Kickstarter works. It's neither a charity nor an investment.
Publishers and investors take creative control away from companies, especially the big ones like EA. We all know how EA tends to buy up studios and they start producing lower quality games as a result due to EA's control (Westwood, Maxis, even Bioware). Many of these games are niche or so risky that publishers and investors won't take a chance on them, yet the end result is they are great games that make more than enough money to support the developers and justify making the game.
People don't have a right to dictate how others spend their money (as long as it's legal). If I want to spend my money on a promise of something later, which often delivers (but as I said Kickstarter is always a gamble) then I have the right to do so. I haven't really been disappointed to the point I won't do it yet. One failure out of 25 isn't exactly bad odds. I personally have many smart decisions with my money (I have loads of investments that have paid off and work a job that pays well) and to be perfectly honest have more money than I'll ever need to live happily so tossing money to Kickstarter. I don't around telling people they shouldn't be dropping $4k on large screen TVs because that seems completely pointless to me and a waste of money.
I rather agree with the OP, and it's more or less the reason I haven't backed any KS projects, even those I've seen as promising.
The only "garantee" you have is that KS won't release your funding unless the project reaches their minimum goal. Past that, there's no promise you'll get anything at all.
It's more or less akin to being a patron of the arts, and for art I don't really have an issue with it. You don't expect a return on your investment, you don't really expect a product (unless you happen to put the artist on commission).
If they were going for traditional funding - venture capital or a loan or however else, the game itself takes a back seat to the business model. They have to sell that the risk of loss is appropriate to the expected return, and the numbers you use have to be realistic, and preferably historically proven.
If a project is coming in with a game, that game needs to include a business plan as part of the KS package. Most game projects in particular focus on the game and how great the game will be, and barely touch on the business plan to make that game sustainable (particularly MMO projects that need support long after their initial release). If they are wanting my money as part of that initial capital in the business plan, then I don't see myself as a patron, I'm an investor. I would expect some sort of return, and I haven't seen any KS project actually offer anything like that. A pre-release copy of an unfinished product doesn't really excite me, and if I really want to play the game and support it, I'll buy it once it's finished and released - and that's supporting the developers as much as anything.
To be brutally honest with you, if we waited on investors and publishers to back games with the creative vision that you're looking for, it wouldn't happen.
Publishers aren't interested in niche games, neither are investors. Here's the biggest problem that indie developers face. Let me tell you about the greatest chocolate bar that you'll ever taste. Think about a Mars bar, but then add in a layer of bacon and a dusting of 24K gold dust so your crap is literally golden! Nestle is never going to buy this, even if it was the greatest thing ever. The market is too small and why would someone buy this chocolate bar for $30 when they could buy a regular old Mars bar for $1?
However, there are people who will buy it. There are healthy niche markets for this type of a product, but no big corporation or investor will EVER put money into it because the returns are simply not there. They want 300, 400, 500% returns and they want it quickly.
Your tagline says you like SWG. Well Kickstarter produced The Repopulation which is arguably the spiritual successor to SWG (even though Smed would beg to differ). These guys have an actual product. It's going to be released. Will it release on their actual schedule? No, that was November 2013, but it's in late Alpha, so at least there is progression. Even if it's a year late, we're talking about people with a small team who aren't aware of the risks involved with their project, necessarily. We're so quick to give publishers a break when their games miss the estimated date, but publishers also don't have to declare a delivery date up front, when they first start the project. Kickstarter you do. So it's actually rather remarkable to me that a game on as massive a scale as The Repopulation will be, maybe, 6 months to a year behind schedule. Yes, they have also gone back to the funding well, but this is no different than any development project either. Look at Vangard. They got to the point where they actually pulled the plug on it.
I will admit that most Kickstarters seem to ship late, but I have heard very few instances of a project not being delivered at all. I'll be more than happy to concede that point, though, if someone has some examples (of a project that asked for more than like $10K funding).
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Any examples of successful judgment that gives back all your money?
Suing, and even winning lawsuits, do not mean that you can collect. It seems a lot of hassle as "protection". Much easier just to ignore KS, for me, of course.
OP by your same logic, works such as those by Michelangelo and J.S. Bach simply wouldn't exist. The basic concept behind how Kickstarter works, patronage, is not a new concept but a very old one and has been responsible for some of the worlds greatest artists and works of art....many of whom started out as being not commercialy viable or even failures initialy.
It's very simple, there is a very strong disconnect between what an investor might think makes a strong return on thier investment and what a patron might think make a good creative work. Heck there is even a rather strong discconect between what traditional investers percieve might make a good return and what actualy makes a good return. If there wasn't we wouldn't see so many penny stocks floating around.
Bottom line creating something which is a good quality creative work that can satisfy a particular market and be a commercialy viable business (e.g. make enough money to pay the bills) is vastly different then creating something which is percieved by a traditional investor to have high assurance of a 25 percent return on principle per annum with X degree of liquidity some solid assets to act as collateral in order to recoup some degree of loss and/or someone to sue if the whole thing turns south.....not to mention that upto a couple years ago you could NOT legaly invest in any private venture unless you held something like 1.5 million dollars in liquid assets. Federal law prohibited it.
Crowdfunding is actualy great because it allows people to bundle together minimal sums that with the sheer volume of people involved add up to something significant enough to get a work done. $5 is nothing to me. I can easly drop that in some street performers hat if I like what they are playing, but I would never invest 500K in something as risky as an MMO. However before Kickstarter I had absolutely no venue for dropping $5 in a game makers hat.....and I could NOT legaly invest that amount even if I wanted to do so. Now under Kickstarter, me and 100K other people can take our $5 donations drop it in a game makers hat.....and they have a significant amount that they can use toward funding a game....furthermore, they can demonstrate to a more traditional investor that they have an audience of at least 100K people interested in the product enough to donate some money....something that would have been impossible to demonstrate before.
I'm with OP.
Never........ever.
There actually was a game recently that failed to be made. The guy claims it's due to medical issues etc. But that makes me wonder, if he is telling the truth, does that mean he's spending the Kickstarter money on medical bills? If not, what happened to the money?
The cynic in me thinks he's just lying. What better way to get away with it? Tell everyone you have some vague family/medical issues and you're really sorry etc etc. Everyone is too busy feeling sorry for him to even consider if he's just running away with their money.
Welcome to free will
or the illusion of it.
It does not matter whether it is true or not ... in either case, no game is made.
So what if he is sick, if he wants people to donate money for his medical bills, ask for money for medical bills, not ask for money for a game.
Obviously KS opens up the possibility to fraud, but even without any lying, i don't want to pay for whatever bad luck that cause my money to go down the drain.
Hence, i will never spend a dime on KS.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
Like SWTOR? or Warhammer? or adding CU expansion to SWG?
In all fairness you are absolutely right. It's like I tell people at work who say things like "I shouldn't have to work that shift cause I have a kid or I take the bus etc" your situation really isn't a factor. Otherwise everyones situation becomes a factor, and what if everyone took the bus or had kids etc? Does no one have to work the late shift/early shift whichever. Not exactly the same but made me think of that.
People always have excuses and that's my point I guess. The excuse doesn't matter, just the result.
i dunno...we'd live in a calmer more sanely paced world where children weren't turned into latchkey kids at too early an age and their parents could actually spend a little more time raising them properly rather than worrying whether the rent gets paid?
p.s. children are not an excuse. i don't care if you know someone who knew someone who abused that this one awful time. that's nothing compared to the millions of parents who don't use it as an excuse.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Well, i really don't care if devs have kids or not. If so, it is their responsibility to properly raise them, not mine.
So again, i only care if a game is produced (if my money is involved, although once again, i don't KS), and the reasoning of failure is irrelevant.
Nah ... i would say not to KS is better.
There's the rub. "Real power." This is the power that lets EA, the most hated corp in the gaming industry (and in the top 25 overall, last I checked) pull the shit that it does.
Kickstarter (and crowdfunding in general) is a threat to that power if it works out. It says to investors and publishers "You don't get to dictate what's 'worthy' or not anymore, because we don't need you like we used to." It lets those who'd otherwise have to take a bad deal to get started on the project that proves themselves 'worthy' of a good deal, and it lets those who've been burned by the publishers go around them.
It's also a place where folks like me, who claim we'd pay happily premium fees for the niche games (that would otherwisse get canned for being "not marketable enough') can put our money where our mouth is.
You sound like an investor, right there.
Good...people like you and the OP shouldn't use KS. You shouldn't use it because you are very happy with many games out on the market right now so buying finished games is a much less risky purchase for you. The OP shouldn't use it because (s)he doesn't understand how it works at all and thinks it is an investment or charity.
Kickstarter is good for a certain type of person who has disposable income and is not satisfied with the products currently on the market and understands the risks involved. Everyone else should just ignore it as it doesn't effect you one bit if you don't use it.
That's the problem, Kickstarter doesn't produce investors, investors are financially involved with the game, what they say has weight with the developer because they can pull their money any time they want if the developer doesn't do what they want. KS doesn't allow you to do that. You buy in and while you can take your money back at any time before it funds, you have no weight whatsoever with the developer. They do what they want to do and you can pay them for it or you can't, but there's no control on your part over the product they produce.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None