Originally posted by Jemcrystal We're saying kickstarters are a scam. Scam to take your money and run.
Well I guess if you ignore the fact that many Kickstarters have produced products already which were close to what was promised and few if any have actually "taken money and run" but I guess some people like to cling to their blatantly wrong opinions despite all logical evidence to the contrary.
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Good for you? You're not investing, you're pre ordering, and helping to get a game made that wouldn't get made otherwise.
I don't pre-order ... particularly when a final good product is not guaranteed.
And i don't need to help games being made, there are plenty fun ones that i don't even have time to finish. So no, i don't spend a dime on buying a promise on KS, but at the same time, please do. I have nothing against other people risking their money that may at the end benefit me (if a game is indeed made).
There are plenty of fun ones FOR YOU. Some of us are sick of wow clones where you hit max level in 2 weeks and then repeat 5 dungeons. Some of us are sick of first person shooters with stats like Skyrim/fallout.
Might and Magic X is the first game to be released in that genre since Wizardry 8, over 10 years ago.
Enjoy your COD clones, but you don't speak for everyone!
When a developer that has vision, imagination and the nack for creation comes along and needs help on kickstarter, i'll be glad to fork over some cash.
nah ... vision and imagination is a dime a dozen, know-how to implement and making something happen .. now that is rare.
I don't play vision, i play games.
You play a tiny set of genres that get released over and over and over. Games have become like stores. There is only Target and Walmart now. All of the other stores have been bought out or went out of business without the marketing power of the big stores.
That's the problem, Kickstarter doesn't produce investors, investors are financially involved with the game, what they say has weight with the developer because they can pull their money any time they want if the developer doesn't do what they want. KS doesn't allow you to do that. You buy in and while you can take your money back at any time before it funds, you have no weight whatsoever with the developer. They do what they want to do and you can pay them for it or you can't, but there's no control on your part over the product they produce.
You think the common stockholder has weight? AHAHAHAHAHA!
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Oh and for those that claim Kickstarter has not delivered any succesfull products, Wasteland2 which is sitting on my hard drive right now would tend to disagree with you. It's not even at final release but It's already provided me with a good deal more entertainment then many games which were produced through normal commercial avenues. Oh yeah and try to tell me big publishers don't sell products before thier finished. Heck some of them even label the unfinished product as unfinished..."Early Access" is the euphamism for it these days.
Can I buy it off store shelves right this minute? No? Then it's not successful. It's not even finished. Come on back when there's a product available for sale to the general public that has a vibrant player base.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal We're saying kickstarters are a scam. Scam to take your money and run.
Well I guess if you ignore the fact that many Kickstarters have produced products already which were close to what was promised and few if any have actually "taken money and run" but I guess some people like to cling to their blatantly wrong opinions despite all logical evidence to the contrary.
Once a game is looking for a million plus- Or is an MMORPG- No way.
The games I have supported have been real indie ventures , already with some playability and looking to upgrade graphics and such.
KS is turning into a big scam and its getting harder and harder for the real indies to become fuded now that the hype the train with these massive games is sucking the money towards w=hat I feel will end up being scams and vapourware.
It seems that the the most sucessful Kickstart projects (in terms of funding) are those who lie, hype and underestimate. Those who are truthful or avoid hype and being let by the wayside.
Yes, overall KS has become a giant scam to sell hopes and dreams to jaded gamers.
Ok... I did not want to say this but, here it goes:
You resort to Kickstarter when you and your project failed to impress any investors. So now you are left with begging the money to people who have no business clue but believe anything a CGI trailer shows and well written PR BS.
Kickstarter: We are your last chance to get your crappy project off the ground!
I have my problems with the way kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites are set up and run...to me it's way too open to exploitation and only a matter of time till someone takes major advantage of that and defrauds a lot of people.
However everyone is free to do what they wish with their money and if they don't do research into the people they are patronizing with their money then they have left themselves open to exploitation.
I myself have cautiously helped fund a couple of games in genres I want done by people I deem least likely to be running a scam.But I accept the risk.
That's the problem, Kickstarter doesn't produce investors, investors are financially involved with the game, what they say has weight with the developer because they can pull their money any time they want if the developer doesn't do what they want. KS doesn't allow you to do that. You buy in and while you can take your money back at any time before it funds, you have no weight whatsoever with the developer. They do what they want to do and you can pay them for it or you can't, but there's no control on your part over the product they produce.
You think the common stockholder has weight? AHAHAHAHAHA!
Individually, no. Collectively, yes. They can force companies to make massive changes.
That's the problem, Kickstarter doesn't produce investors, investors are financially involved with the game, what they say has weight with the developer because they can pull their money any time they want if the developer doesn't do what they want. KS doesn't allow you to do that. You buy in and while you can take your money back at any time before it funds, you have no weight whatsoever with the developer. They do what they want to do and you can pay them for it or you can't, but there's no control on your part over the product they produce.
You think the common stockholder has weight? AHAHAHAHAHA!
Yes.
A "common stockholder" first off is making a profit if the company does well- Stock s are a real investment where your money is being used to fund something and IF it does well you get monetary reward or a larger stake in the company if the stocks split.
Common stockholders do have clout when the company starts floundering- The clout is to SELL their stock. Once the company starts making bad descisions and many common stockholders start selling the price of stock plunges and the companies worth begins to tank.
No, a common stockholder cannot make demands and change things=- But once lots of stock is up for sale they can destroy the companies bottom line by tanking the stock.
If I am going to "fund" a million dollar venture- I want some of the profits if/when there are any. I am not paying for a company to have very little out of pocket expenses and yet keep all the profit AND EQUITY to themselves.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Oh and for those that claim Kickstarter has not delivered any succesfull products, Wasteland2 which is sitting on my hard drive right now would tend to disagree with you. It's not even at final release but It's already provided me with a good deal more entertainment then many games which were produced through normal commercial avenues. Oh yeah and try to tell me big publishers don't sell products before thier finished. Heck some of them even label the unfinished product as unfinished..."Early Access" is the euphamism for it these days.
Can I buy it off store shelves right this minute? No? Then it's not successful. It's not even finished. Come on back when there's a product available for sale to the general public that has a vibrant player base.
I backed a guy who said he was making posters. I received what looks like shiny glossy paper...with stuff drawed on it. MOTHAFUNKIN SUCCESS!
There are enough decent games to buy that is coming out every god forsaken day that you don't have to back games. I mean look at Banner Saga. That took 723,886.00 Dollars. Just...Daaaaamn.
The average development cost of a AAA game currently is around $20,000,000. $723,886 is nothing. Also, Banner Saga is a GREAT game.
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Good for you? You're not investing, you're pre ordering, and helping to get a game made that wouldn't get made otherwise.
I don't pre-order ... particularly when a final good product is not guaranteed.
And i don't need to help games being made, there are plenty fun ones that i don't even have time to finish. So no, i don't spend a dime on buying a promise on KS, but at the same time, please do. I have nothing against other people risking their money that may at the end benefit me (if a game is indeed made).
There are plenty of fun ones FOR YOU. Some of us are sick of wow clones where you hit max level in 2 weeks and then repeat 5 dungeons. Some of us are sick of first person shooters with stats like Skyrim/fallout.
Might and Magic X is the first game to be released in that genre since Wizardry 8, over 10 years ago.
Enjoy your COD clones, but you don't speak for everyone!
Nor did i claim to. If you notice, i say "i don't" .. not "you shouldn't".
And yes, FPS are fun .. just finished Crysis 2 & 3 .. way more fun than most MMORPGs. It is very narrow minded to call all FPSes CoD clones .. how about Deus Ex Human Evolution? Is that a CoD clone too?
And it is a good game which i bought on the iOS .. but again, why should i KS? I spent nothing on KS and i still get to buy this game. Secondly, before it is released, there is no guaranteed that it will be made, nor that it would be fun, so why run the risk?
It is simply better (for me) to reap the benefit of KS when games are produced .. before that .. i will leave it out for those who are willing to risk their money to "support" these projects.
And it is a good game which i bought on the iOS .. but again, why should i KS? I spent nothing on KS and i still get to buy this game. Secondly, before it is released, there is no guaranteed that it will be made, nor that it would be fun, so why run the risk?
It is simply better (for me) to reap the benefit of KS when games are produced .. before that .. i will leave it out for those who are willing to risk their money to "support" these projects.
Sometimes, there's benefits to spending money on a KS. Sometimes the actual cost of the game is less or you get some extras that you wouldn't get if you waited until it released. For example, the KS I supported, Hex:Shards of Fate which is a TCG MMO, had a KS tier called Pro Player which contained one free draft a week for the life of the game. Considering each draft requires 3 booster packs at $2 a pack ($6 total, which is $312 a year), you can see how attractive that can be.
Bottom line is that people have to engage in some due diligence when they're considering dropping some money on any KS project but if you find something that interests you and it looks legit, then it could be worth your while to support it.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Since these forums have been filled with kickstarter threads and people trying to "spread the word out"...let me tell you few things about "kickstarters" and why I'll never spend a cent.
Since these forums have been filled with kickstarter threads and people trying to "spread the word out"...let me tell you few things about "kickstarters" and why I'll never spend a cent.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Oh and for those that claim Kickstarter has not delivered any succesfull products, Wasteland2 which is sitting on my hard drive right now would tend to disagree with you. It's not even at final release but It's already provided me with a good deal more entertainment then many games which were produced through normal commercial avenues. Oh yeah and try to tell me big publishers don't sell products before thier finished. Heck some of them even label the unfinished product as unfinished..."Early Access" is the euphamism for it these days.
Can I buy it off store shelves right this minute? No? Then it's not successful. It's not even finished. Come on back when there's a product available for sale to the general public that has a vibrant player base.
Why should I as a PLAYER care about any of that. My only concern would be if they produce a good game that I and others can enjoy. They have. It's sitting on my hard disk right now and I've enjoyed it more then many commercial products. Q.E.D.
If I give money to an artist, I care if he produces a good work that people can enjoy....not another example of "Dogs Playing Poker" that sells $5 prints in every curio shop. You're definition of "successfull" is entirely different then mine.
P.S. Many commercial products these days are digital distribution only. Wasteland2 is as well...you can purchase it through Steam right now....and it has a pretty large and vibrant player base as well....more then some MMO's produced and funded through traditional means.
unique knowledge and exceptional experience ... brilliant minds ... most brilliant minds ... too busy enjoying their lives to bother wasting their time developing a game ...I could be persuaded.
That's...all this post has to say. Bet it worked pretty well...oh yeah, lots of pages.
Comments
Well I guess if you ignore the fact that many Kickstarters have produced products already which were close to what was promised and few if any have actually "taken money and run" but I guess some people like to cling to their blatantly wrong opinions despite all logical evidence to the contrary.
There are plenty of fun ones FOR YOU. Some of us are sick of wow clones where you hit max level in 2 weeks and then repeat 5 dungeons. Some of us are sick of first person shooters with stats like Skyrim/fallout.
Might and Magic X is the first game to be released in that genre since Wizardry 8, over 10 years ago.
Enjoy your COD clones, but you don't speak for everyone!
You play a tiny set of genres that get released over and over and over. Games have become like stores. There is only Target and Walmart now. All of the other stores have been bought out or went out of business without the marketing power of the big stores.
You think the common stockholder has weight? AHAHAHAHAHA!
Shadowrun Returns says hi.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/234650/?snr=1_7_15__13
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Shadowrun Returns says hi to you, too.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/234650/?snr=1_7_15__13
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Feel free to link those.
I support low dollar single player games via KS..
Once a game is looking for a million plus- Or is an MMORPG- No way.
The games I have supported have been real indie ventures , already with some playability and looking to upgrade graphics and such.
KS is turning into a big scam and its getting harder and harder for the real indies to become fuded now that the hype the train with these massive games is sucking the money towards w=hat I feel will end up being scams and vapourware.
It seems that the the most sucessful Kickstart projects (in terms of funding) are those who lie, hype and underestimate. Those who are truthful or avoid hype and being let by the wayside.
Yes, overall KS has become a giant scam to sell hopes and dreams to jaded gamers.
Ok... I did not want to say this but, here it goes:
You resort to Kickstarter when you and your project failed to impress any investors. So now you are left with begging the money to people who have no business clue but believe anything a CGI trailer shows and well written PR BS.
Kickstarter: We are your last chance to get your crappy project off the ground!
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
I have my problems with the way kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites are set up and run...to me it's way too open to exploitation and only a matter of time till someone takes major advantage of that and defrauds a lot of people.
However everyone is free to do what they wish with their money and if they don't do research into the people they are patronizing with their money then they have left themselves open to exploitation.
I myself have cautiously helped fund a couple of games in genres I want done by people I deem least likely to be running a scam.But I accept the risk.
Individually, no. Collectively, yes. They can force companies to make massive changes.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yes.
A "common stockholder" first off is making a profit if the company does well- Stock s are a real investment where your money is being used to fund something and IF it does well you get monetary reward or a larger stake in the company if the stocks split.
Common stockholders do have clout when the company starts floundering- The clout is to SELL their stock. Once the company starts making bad descisions and many common stockholders start selling the price of stock plunges and the companies worth begins to tank.
No, a common stockholder cannot make demands and change things=- But once lots of stock is up for sale they can destroy the companies bottom line by tanking the stock.
If I am going to "fund" a million dollar venture- I want some of the profits if/when there are any. I am not paying for a company to have very little out of pocket expenses and yet keep all the profit AND EQUITY to themselves.
Thats just...Stupid imho.
I was talking about the specific game that he brought up. Try again.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Wasteland2 is still in beta but early access is on sale to the general public
http://store.steampowered.com/app/240760/
alongside another kickstarter RPG that i can't wait to be out of beta
http://www.joystiq.com/2014/01/19/divinity-original-sin-now-on-steam-early-access/
EQ2 fan sites
Not early access, not beta, on actual store shelves in a finished state. It isn't. Sorry.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The average development cost of a AAA game currently is around $20,000,000. $723,886 is nothing. Also, Banner Saga is a GREAT game.
Nor did i claim to. If you notice, i say "i don't" .. not "you shouldn't".
And yes, FPS are fun .. just finished Crysis 2 & 3 .. way more fun than most MMORPGs. It is very narrow minded to call all FPSes CoD clones .. how about Deus Ex Human Evolution? Is that a CoD clone too?
And it is a good game which i bought on the iOS .. but again, why should i KS? I spent nothing on KS and i still get to buy this game. Secondly, before it is released, there is no guaranteed that it will be made, nor that it would be fun, so why run the risk?
It is simply better (for me) to reap the benefit of KS when games are produced .. before that .. i will leave it out for those who are willing to risk their money to "support" these projects.
Sometimes, there's benefits to spending money on a KS. Sometimes the actual cost of the game is less or you get some extras that you wouldn't get if you waited until it released. For example, the KS I supported, Hex:Shards of Fate which is a TCG MMO, had a KS tier called Pro Player which contained one free draft a week for the life of the game. Considering each draft requires 3 booster packs at $2 a pack ($6 total, which is $312 a year), you can see how attractive that can be.
Bottom line is that people have to engage in some due diligence when they're considering dropping some money on any KS project but if you find something that interests you and it looks legit, then it could be worth your while to support it.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Stopped reading right there.
If I buy ship on Star Citizen, I will be able to use that ship in game. That's what I invest in and that's what I get.
The same rule applies to any kickstarter that is successful and honest.
If you chose to buy into the wrong projects? That's just tough luck and on you.
"What tastes like purple?"
For me, with Hex, I've already made my money back, and more, as soon as the game goes live because of the free drafts I'll be receiving.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Why should I as a PLAYER care about any of that. My only concern would be if they produce a good game that I and others can enjoy. They have. It's sitting on my hard disk right now and I've enjoyed it more then many commercial products. Q.E.D.
If I give money to an artist, I care if he produces a good work that people can enjoy....not another example of "Dogs Playing Poker" that sells $5 prints in every curio shop. You're definition of "successfull" is entirely different then mine.
P.S. Many commercial products these days are digital distribution only. Wasteland2 is as well...you can purchase it through Steam right now....and it has a pretty large and vibrant player base as well....more then some MMO's produced and funded through traditional means.
That's...all this post has to say. Bet it worked pretty well...oh yeah, lots of pages.