Originally posted by GregorMcgregor The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).
Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).
So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).
Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".
And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.
Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this because I don't think there is even a shred of truth in anything you just said. GW2 was a resounding success. Drops were changed because the player base hit max gear right away and so they gave them junk to camp, just like in every other MMORPG ever made. GW2 is the easy proof that subs just aren't needed as it is a higher quality MMORPG than just about any sub game released in the past 5 years and the game is still thriving.
I just wish they hadn't dumbed it down so much so it was worth playing.
Sub fees are the only system that is guaranteed to be a ripoff. I bought the game, I'm buying the expansions yet you are just ripping me off by charging a monthly fee for no reason and making me pay $15 every time I want to try the game again after taking a break. The only dishonest system in the genre is the sub fee.
Cash Shops are actually a lot more dishonest than sub fees. In a sub fee you are getting all the content in the game (usually). ESO has a cash shop and I am a bit worried about that. Even though it's just cosmetic items. Cash Shops prey on peoples inability control their impulses similar to gambling. They know a lot of people will cave in. Guild Wars has a nice idea, but I don't believe it is of high quality at all. They don't even have consistent amount of money coming in to make improvements and maintain the servers. The first game was horrid IMO. I haven't tried the second game. I'd rather pay the subscription, have access to all content, and not have to worry about paywalls. The money from the sub usually goes towards new content. The bad part again is if they use the cash shop a lot in addition to the subscription.
Originally posted by udon Do you think it's a coincidence that a game trying to drive as many players as possible to the cash shop and currency exchange would dumb down it's game play as you put it?
Hmm
I think the two things have nothing to do with each other. The vision behind the game was to dumb it down, that was their concept since early beta. Do away with complex combat, make RvR really zergy, give everyone rewards for everything. I don't feel they are trying to drive people to the cash shop anymore than any other game in existence that has a cash shop. I played GW2 multiple times and never felt the need to spend a penny on it. The thing is since it is B2P I can go back and try it whenever I feel like it, unlike say WoW which I will probably never touch again because I don't want to spend $15 just to realize I'm still not interested.
If your going to lower the bar and make a game more accessible to gamers why not lower it to the floor and make it accessible to everyone? That's the core tenant behind F2P games, accessibility at any cost at least in the beginning. You don't do anything that would frustrate a person or cause them to even consider for a second trying a different game at least not until they have enough hours invested in it you can wrench down the screws. B2P with a cash shop especially one with lock boxes and currency exchange is only marginally better than F2P in that regard. I have seen multiple sub games convert to F2P and in every case they where preceded by a "streamlining" of the leveling process prior to going F2P to pave the way.
If ESO goes F2P post launch I promise you it will be preceded by a content "streamlining" that will dumb down the difficulty to the point where you can play it blindfolded. That's the true cost of F2P and in most cases B2P over Sub's to gamers. We are giving up the soul of what a MMO is so we can get to play cheap demo's for 20-40 hours before moving on to the next one.
From different posts, threads, tweets, reviews, and video gameplay what i've gathered is that the majority believe the "quality" isn't there to justify demanding $60 box price + $15/month subscription.
From experience this just means the game itself can't justify its own development costs for what it has proven itself to be actually worth.
There are games where F2P just isn't a viable option, and then there are games that it fits quite well in.
Is this just the "F2P" crowd demanding another new product conform to their viewpoint, or are the claims valid that TESO isn't worth a standard P2P model? Without having gotten to test/play TESO yet to form a 100% concrete opinion, do you guys think this is the case?
Sorry for the new thread, but I felt a more directed question on the subject was needed. I've only seen threads about people complaining about the complainers for F2P, or why people don't "get" F2P .
Sincerely,
-Bear
Dangerous question OP in that the NDA prohibits providing a personal impression of play at this time. However based on several previews that I have read then its fair to say that a media consensus exists where TESO Is considered a rather bland and mediocre game without any quality content worthy of paying a long term subscription fee for in light of the free or buy to play competition. This is particularly true of the potential console versions with the additional fees added for play. It is what it is and to be honest this latest press preview day was just not a happy day for ZOS.
So after reading all of this, I have come to the following conclusions:
Apparently, if I read 30 posts/tweets/op eds that say something should be something, it means there is a "consensus".
Anything over $10 is a "real bill".
People are willing to pay for subs on games that haven't changed for the better for years, but refuse to pay for something newish.
People seem to have a real issue with animations and apparently seem to find it game breaking.
People will believe anything a reviewer says, apparently never learning their lessons from movie reviewers who won't like anything unless it's the new Scorcese flick.
Some people wouldn't pay for a glass of water if their genitals were on fire, rather continuing to walk down the street looking for that free hose.
Guys, cmon. You know that what you read is hardly a "consensus". There are literally millions of pre-orders out there. The P2P model surely isn't affecting those people's decisions, so how could you EVER take a few posts/tweets and reviews as a "consensus"?
F2P people are like a plague rapidly spreading across MMOs these days. That $15 a month is perfect for keeping the bots and trolls out of the games, so instead they spend their time trolling the forums.
Personaly I am quite happy the game is pay 2 play.. I prefer pay 2 play and having everything in game be open for everyone to earn / attain.. I hate f2p games cause they cost way more than a sub per month to stay competative. Im much happier with an all-inclusive subscription instead of milking me for 200 dollars for inventory space + sub for 30 days for exp boost plus an outfit plus other convience stuff etc
Any post on these forums that starts with "So the general concensus...."
It doesn't exist.
I think the only thing that you might get an agreement on is that TESO should be a good game first and foremost.
the payment model wouldn't even be discussed if PvE and PvP were equally awesome.
agreed. i would even lower the bar just a bit and say the solidly fun would be enough for a sub.
really have no plans to play this game myself. i've not liked what i've seen, the game is not for me, however, i don't see why that requires it to become f2p.
i hope they stand their ground and don't go f2p. as long as they are willing to have a market share and not own the market i think they can pull it off.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Originally posted by the420kid Personaly I am quite happy the game is pay 2 play.. I prefer pay 2 play and having everything in game be open for everyone to earn / attain.. I hate f2p games cause they cost way more than a sub per month to stay competative. Im much happier with an all-inclusive subscription instead of milking me for 200 dollars for inventory space + sub for 30 days for exp boost plus an outfit plus other convience stuff etc
This. 100x this. People don't realize that yes, you can get some fun out of a F2P game, but you are seriously hindering yourself. Think of EQ2's terrible F2P model. You have to pay to unlock items to be equipped of a certain value. You have to pay to use mercs (or used to, I think that changed now), you have to pay for more AAs, you have to pay for new race/classes....the list goes on and on. Now, if I were to buy all of that, I would have paid more than $15. The item one is incredibly problematic, seeing as you must repay everytime you get a new item. Why gimp your game play experience? Why take resources away from the actual game to make cosmetic crap for a store instead? That's what you do to play a F2P game. There are HUGE trade offs. I mean, look at even GW2. Some will say they have these amazing content upgrades, but most of that content comes in the form of store items, and what little actual game content they do put out isn't permanent.
And let's not forget about the trolls. Over the beta, I had a character screaming crap in general named "Imperial H*mo" or some such nonsense, and he repeatedly spammed sexually explicit messages in general chat. Wanna bet he wouldn't be doing that had he had the chance to lose his 60 bucks plus his invested 15 bucks a month? And gold spammers are the same. They will be rampant anyways (they almost always seem to be regardless), but could you imagine if they could get free accounts non stop? No thanks.
What's funny is right now it's cheaper to buy the SWTOR client + 60 days of game time than it is to buy GW2. Three months is plenty of time to spend with a game and more than enough time to make all the money you need to buy F2P unlocks with ingame credits instead of real cash.
What I've read from so many others; I'll pay, and I'm glad to pay, to eliminate gold spammers and jerks, to keep the money flowing so the devs create new content, and most, because these are serious artists, doing some damn fine work, and they deserve to be paid.
I'm impressed with what I've seen online, and will not violate the NDA to add more. But, I bought a physical copy of the Imperial Edition, and I'll be paying my sub fees as long as they're required - which I really hope is always.
"Some people wouldn't pay for a glass of water if their ass was on fire."
What I've read from so many others; I'll pay, and I'm glad to pay, to eliminate gold spammers and jerks, to keep the money flowing so the devs create new content, and most, because these are serious artists, doing some damn fine work, and they deserve to be paid.
I'm impressed with what I've seen online, and will not violate the NDA to add more. But, I bought a physical copy of the Imperial Edition, and I'll be paying my sub fees as long as they're required - which I really hope is always.
"Some people wouldn't pay for a glass of water if their ass was on fire."
That.
Unfortunately P2P does not keep out the gold spammers/sellers
If there is gold there will be buyers...........therefore sellers.
F2P,B2P,P2P never enters my mind when i'm deciding on if i'm playing a game or not.
If i enjoy the game, i'll do whatever payment plan they currently have..I will say I've spent more money in B2P and F2P games then I have on games that are p2p, So cheap people who can't afford monthly fee's should go play those games if they really want.
Harping on every game that comes out to have those Specific Models because you're fucking broke..while at the same time talking crap about a game "I'll never play it, unless they get rid of the subscription" blows my mind...
If you're poor, and can't afford the monthly fee..quit bitching and go do something productive with your life.
The game is definitely better off as a P2P, and it's definitely worth the money for the leveling experience alone (think SWTOR). The calls for F2P are from the MMO hoppers. They never spend any significant time in any MMO and just hop from one to the next and consume the content for as little money as possible. They aren't interested in the games long term success.
Whether or not the end-game will be worth maintaining a sub, nobody knows at this point.
The 'I can only play 30 minutes after getting in from work' crowd who moaned about paying full sub as the guy who played 7 hrs daily are why the mmo's are in the state they are today. After moaning until they got the easy grinding, levelling so they could equip like their friends who played for hours, you then get left with something sort of resembling what was once an mmo.
Now it's more a single player online game with a chat box and of course that's not what others wanted, it's now to easy so it goes ... Wait for it .. F2P
Now it's still roughly the same game but free, some are ok with that as they are no longer paying for what became basically a faulty product. Others not so as they want the old, original mmo experience they used to pay for. Some gamers want the ORIGINAL mmo back, the actual genre as it was, the niche not the mass market version.
Grinding, that long journey from level to level .. No world chat!! Dieting and caring about it. When mmo's were actually niche your character really meant something to you, who remembers UO, or when EQ was born and how you chose a character to stick with and not one you could switch between every few hours.
I remember in UO I had a Mage and we used to go to the very edge of town, just outside its safety border (like 1step lol) cast a flame wall and constantly walk through that to raise Magic Resistance up to a Grand Master. So we'd all be there chatting away trying not to kill ourselves in the process ;-)
As for people moaning about subs, they do it with any game. I see them on the Steam forum complaining about the sub for EVE but say how great the game is, they'll play it when F2P
$15 dollars is currently £9.12 .. I can't even buy a pizza for that, I can buy 1 bottle of Asti .. If I spend an extra £1 then 4 shots of sambuca instead. Which would last me less than 5 seconds
The game is definitely better off as a P2P, and it's definitely worth the money for the leveling experience alone (think SWTOR).
Whether or not the end-game will be worth maintaining a sub, nobody knows at this point.
No one know that till people have been top level for a few months. Its too soon to call as F2P or P2P. We need to see the end game value before we really can judge as leveling content is rarely what keeps people playing and paying.
This game offers a similar experience to any other AAA MMO that has been released under a subscription model. It has some unique features that make it different - namely that it is trying to achieve a a classical TES gameplay experience. I think it has just enough unique design to warrant it being called truly different.
The problem with F2P is that people who can afford to pay a subscription in the first place, are the only ones who actually ever purchase anything in the cash shops. The other "free" players (whom I call Freeloaders) never pay anything - ever. This means that the cost to support 5 times as many people is now put on the shoulders of the people who would be happy just paying for themselves with a standard subscription fee... now they have to pay 5 times as much.
In other words... the people who actually pay the bills are getting screwed. Not only that, they make up the vocal minority of the player base. That means that the dev team DOES NOT DESIGN AND DEVELOP FOR THEM! That's exactly what that means. They develop for what the most amount of players want. Those players are Freeloaders. Frankly, they shouldn't even be allowed to have an opinion.
I wish everyone would just stop with this "the game isn't good enough to be subscription" bullcrap. People who say that A) haven't played it and just want another free game to play because the one they play now (which is also free) actually sucks.
Quality is fine for subscription. People are just cheap, and this newer generation of gamer's expects everything to be free without realizing the true cost of "free."
What I've read from so many others; I'll pay, and I'm glad to pay, to eliminate gold spammers and jerks, to keep the money flowing so the devs create new content, and most, because these are serious artists, doing some damn fine work, and they deserve to be paid.
I'm impressed with what I've seen online, and will not violate the NDA to add more. But, I bought a physical copy of the Imperial Edition, and I'll be paying my sub fees as long as they're required - which I really hope is always.
"Some people wouldn't pay for a glass of water if their ass was on fire."
That.
Unfortunately P2P does not keep out the gold spammers/sellers
If there is gold there will be buyers...........therefore sellers.
Many people will in for surprise if they think there will be no guild spammers and jerks on P2P games.
The 'I can only play 30 minutes after getting in from work' crowd who moaned about paying full sub as the guy who played 7 hrs daily are why the mmo's are in the state they are today. After moaning until they got the easy grinding, levelling so they could equip like their friends who played for hours, you then get left with something sort of resembling what was once an mmo.
Now it's more a single player online game with a chat box and of course that's not what others wanted, it's now to easy so it goes ... Wait for it .. F2P
Now it's still roughly the same game but free, some are ok with that as they are no longer paying for what became basically a faulty product. Others not so as they want the old, original mmo experience they used to pay for. Some gamers want the ORIGINAL mmo back, the actual genre as it was, the niche not the mass market version.
Grinding, that long journey from level to level .. No world chat!! Dieting and caring about it. When mmo's were actually niche your character really meant something to you, who remembers UO, or when EQ was born and how you chose a character to stick with and not one you could switch between every few hours.
I remember in UO I had a Mage and we used to go to the very edge of town, just outside its safety border (like 1step lol) cast a flame wall and constantly walk through that to raise Magic Resistance up to a Grand Master. So we'd all be there chatting away trying not to kill ourselves in the process ;-)
As for people moaning about subs, they do it with any game. I see them on the Steam forum complaining about the sub for EVE but say how great the game is, they'll play it when F2P
$15 dollars is currently £9.12 .. I can't even buy a pizza for that, I can buy 1 bottle of Asti .. If I spend an extra £1 then 4 shots of sambuca instead. Which would last me less than 5 seconds
What planet do you come from ? The last people on the face of the earth that complain about spending their money to play a game are the folks that work for a living and try to balance play time and family time . What working people ask for are games that provide quality time not a game where you are force fed solo or duo or group or raiding content but content where they can spend productive time doing whatever they want ,Nothing gets older faster then listen to same old crap about how great it was in the day when you had to walk uphill five miles each way to get on your computer to play EQ all night with 30 other cellar dwellers . UO , EQ,DAOC and Shadowbane were good in there day but that's it ....there time has long past , it's time to move along and find something else put the rose coloured glasses away and embrace the games and folks that play in the present
Some of the stuff people throw around that they'd have liked in this game made me think of a Skyrim version of GTA online with people riding dragons into each other and killing whole towns, then they'd be like "oh shit we have to restart since now everyone is dead" Would have been funny.
What we got was a fairly decent MMO as far as I'm concerned with what seems like a lot of depth to unravel - something I am actually looking forward to. Hopefully with some tasty expansions after I've devoured all the existing content. If anything is worth a sub its that for me.
Comments
Cash Shops are actually a lot more dishonest than sub fees. In a sub fee you are getting all the content in the game (usually). ESO has a cash shop and I am a bit worried about that. Even though it's just cosmetic items. Cash Shops prey on peoples inability control their impulses similar to gambling. They know a lot of people will cave in. Guild Wars has a nice idea, but I don't believe it is of high quality at all. They don't even have consistent amount of money coming in to make improvements and maintain the servers. The first game was horrid IMO. I haven't tried the second game. I'd rather pay the subscription, have access to all content, and not have to worry about paywalls. The money from the sub usually goes towards new content. The bad part again is if they use the cash shop a lot in addition to the subscription.
You mean you don't want to sub a third game;)
If your going to lower the bar and make a game more accessible to gamers why not lower it to the floor and make it accessible to everyone? That's the core tenant behind F2P games, accessibility at any cost at least in the beginning. You don't do anything that would frustrate a person or cause them to even consider for a second trying a different game at least not until they have enough hours invested in it you can wrench down the screws. B2P with a cash shop especially one with lock boxes and currency exchange is only marginally better than F2P in that regard. I have seen multiple sub games convert to F2P and in every case they where preceded by a "streamlining" of the leveling process prior to going F2P to pave the way.
If ESO goes F2P post launch I promise you it will be preceded by a content "streamlining" that will dumb down the difficulty to the point where you can play it blindfolded. That's the true cost of F2P and in most cases B2P over Sub's to gamers. We are giving up the soul of what a MMO is so we can get to play cheap demo's for 20-40 hours before moving on to the next one.
Dangerous question OP in that the NDA prohibits providing a personal impression of play at this time. However based on several previews that I have read then its fair to say that a media consensus exists where TESO Is considered a rather bland and mediocre game without any quality content worthy of paying a long term subscription fee for in light of the free or buy to play competition. This is particularly true of the potential console versions with the additional fees added for play. It is what it is and to be honest this latest press preview day was just not a happy day for ZOS.
So after reading all of this, I have come to the following conclusions:
agreed. i would even lower the bar just a bit and say the solidly fun would be enough for a sub.
really have no plans to play this game myself. i've not liked what i've seen, the game is not for me, however, i don't see why that requires it to become f2p.
i hope they stand their ground and don't go f2p. as long as they are willing to have a market share and not own the market i think they can pull it off.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
This. 100x this. People don't realize that yes, you can get some fun out of a F2P game, but you are seriously hindering yourself. Think of EQ2's terrible F2P model. You have to pay to unlock items to be equipped of a certain value. You have to pay to use mercs (or used to, I think that changed now), you have to pay for more AAs, you have to pay for new race/classes....the list goes on and on. Now, if I were to buy all of that, I would have paid more than $15. The item one is incredibly problematic, seeing as you must repay everytime you get a new item. Why gimp your game play experience? Why take resources away from the actual game to make cosmetic crap for a store instead? That's what you do to play a F2P game. There are HUGE trade offs. I mean, look at even GW2. Some will say they have these amazing content upgrades, but most of that content comes in the form of store items, and what little actual game content they do put out isn't permanent.
And let's not forget about the trolls. Over the beta, I had a character screaming crap in general named "Imperial H*mo" or some such nonsense, and he repeatedly spammed sexually explicit messages in general chat. Wanna bet he wouldn't be doing that had he had the chance to lose his 60 bucks plus his invested 15 bucks a month? And gold spammers are the same. They will be rampant anyways (they almost always seem to be regardless), but could you imagine if they could get free accounts non stop? No thanks.
What's funny is right now it's cheaper to buy the SWTOR client + 60 days of game time than it is to buy GW2. Three months is plenty of time to spend with a game and more than enough time to make all the money you need to buy F2P unlocks with ingame credits instead of real cash.
I can definitely see ESO taking the same route.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
I can spend 10.000 $ but i don't want to. I still think TESO should be p2p.
What I've read from so many others; I'll pay, and I'm glad to pay, to eliminate gold spammers and jerks, to keep the money flowing so the devs create new content, and most, because these are serious artists, doing some damn fine work, and they deserve to be paid.
I'm impressed with what I've seen online, and will not violate the NDA to add more. But, I bought a physical copy of the Imperial Edition, and I'll be paying my sub fees as long as they're required - which I really hope is always.
"Some people wouldn't pay for a glass of water if their ass was on fire."
That.
$15 is barely enough to cover one cocktail in NYC........Crap I can spend a years sub in 2 hrs at a NYC bar/club.
I prefer P2P for my own reasons.
Unfortunately P2P does not keep out the gold spammers/sellers
If there is gold there will be buyers...........therefore sellers.
F2P,B2P,P2P never enters my mind when i'm deciding on if i'm playing a game or not.
If i enjoy the game, i'll do whatever payment plan they currently have..I will say I've spent more money in B2P and F2P games then I have on games that are p2p, So cheap people who can't afford monthly fee's should go play those games if they really want.
Harping on every game that comes out to have those Specific Models because you're fucking broke..while at the same time talking crap about a game "I'll never play it, unless they get rid of the subscription" blows my mind...
If you're poor, and can't afford the monthly fee..quit bitching and go do something productive with your life.
The game is definitely better off as a P2P, and it's definitely worth the money for the leveling experience alone (think SWTOR). The calls for F2P are from the MMO hoppers. They never spend any significant time in any MMO and just hop from one to the next and consume the content for as little money as possible. They aren't interested in the games long term success.
Whether or not the end-game will be worth maintaining a sub, nobody knows at this point.
The 'I can only play 30 minutes after getting in from work' crowd who moaned about paying full sub as the guy who played 7 hrs daily are why the mmo's are in the state they are today. After moaning until they got the easy grinding, levelling so they could equip like their friends who played for hours, you then get left with something sort of resembling what was once an mmo.
Now it's more a single player online game with a chat box and of course that's not what others wanted, it's now to easy so it goes ... Wait for it .. F2P
Now it's still roughly the same game but free, some are ok with that as they are no longer paying for what became basically a faulty product. Others not so as they want the old, original mmo experience they used to pay for. Some gamers want the ORIGINAL mmo back, the actual genre as it was, the niche not the mass market version.
Grinding, that long journey from level to level .. No world chat!! Dieting and caring about it. When mmo's were actually niche your character really meant something to you, who remembers UO, or when EQ was born and how you chose a character to stick with and not one you could switch between every few hours.
I remember in UO I had a Mage and we used to go to the very edge of town, just outside its safety border (like 1step lol) cast a flame wall and constantly walk through that to raise Magic Resistance up to a Grand Master. So we'd all be there chatting away trying not to kill ourselves in the process ;-)
As for people moaning about subs, they do it with any game. I see them on the Steam forum complaining about the sub for EVE but say how great the game is, they'll play it when F2P
$15 dollars is currently £9.12 .. I can't even buy a pizza for that, I can buy 1 bottle of Asti .. If I spend an extra £1 then 4 shots of sambuca instead. Which would last me less than 5 seconds
No one know that till people have been top level for a few months. Its too soon to call as F2P or P2P. We need to see the end game value before we really can judge as leveling content is rarely what keeps people playing and paying.
This game offers a similar experience to any other AAA MMO that has been released under a subscription model. It has some unique features that make it different - namely that it is trying to achieve a a classical TES gameplay experience. I think it has just enough unique design to warrant it being called truly different.
The problem with F2P is that people who can afford to pay a subscription in the first place, are the only ones who actually ever purchase anything in the cash shops. The other "free" players (whom I call Freeloaders) never pay anything - ever. This means that the cost to support 5 times as many people is now put on the shoulders of the people who would be happy just paying for themselves with a standard subscription fee... now they have to pay 5 times as much.
In other words... the people who actually pay the bills are getting screwed. Not only that, they make up the vocal minority of the player base. That means that the dev team DOES NOT DESIGN AND DEVELOP FOR THEM! That's exactly what that means. They develop for what the most amount of players want. Those players are Freeloaders. Frankly, they shouldn't even be allowed to have an opinion.
I wish everyone would just stop with this "the game isn't good enough to be subscription" bullcrap. People who say that A) haven't played it and
just want another free game to play because the one they play now (which is also free) actually sucks.
You make me like charity
One night? Try one round.
Many people will in for surprise if they think there will be no guild spammers and jerks on P2P games.
What planet do you come from ? The last people on the face of the earth that complain about spending their money to play a game are the folks that work for a living and try to balance play time and family time . What working people ask for are games that provide quality time not a game where you are force fed solo or duo or group or raiding content but content where they can spend productive time doing whatever they want ,Nothing gets older faster then listen to same old crap about how great it was in the day when you had to walk uphill five miles each way to get on your computer to play EQ all night with 30 other cellar dwellers . UO , EQ,DAOC and Shadowbane were good in there day but that's it ....there time has long past , it's time to move along and find something else put the rose coloured glasses away and embrace the games and folks that play in the present
Some of the stuff people throw around that they'd have liked in this game made me think of a Skyrim version of GTA online with people riding dragons into each other and killing whole towns, then they'd be like "oh shit we have to restart since now everyone is dead" Would have been funny.
What we got was a fairly decent MMO as far as I'm concerned with what seems like a lot of depth to unravel - something I am actually looking forward to. Hopefully with some tasty expansions after I've devoured all the existing content. If anything is worth a sub its that for me.
I would only play this game if it was F2P/maybe B2P.
I'll give it a try when it goes F2P in 3 months. Hopefully they can release that magically patch that actually makes the game good.