Originally posted by Viduus I'd rather not play with Russian and Brazillian 12-year-olds.
But that's the thing. No one is forcing you to. Us the players decide with what type of community to be involved. It has nothing to do with the model of the game. The Russian/Brazillian 12 year olds would add additional revenue to the game, which would make that game better experience for you at the end.
It must really tweak your nipples that all the new games are going back to P2P huh?
You keep complaining about not being able to test the game, did you miss the 500,000 beta keys that curse was giving out over a span of a few days? I was able to get TWO keys, one for me, and one for my fiance' and they had over 250,000 left and I waited two days to try to get one....and don't tell me that you did not know about it, it was ALL OVER this website and the forums.
Sub games keep the whiners out and the people from logging in game just to constantly complain about how much they don't like the game. Sub games enhance the communities and bring together people who are actually interested in playing,and are willing to pay the whole .50 a day to support the paychecks of the devs and the company of a whole so that they can bring you quality expansions and better customer support.
FTP games are full of spammers, and immature whiners that bring the community farther apart, just because they don't have to pay to get access to the servers so they login bored and grief people and the chat and in general act like jerks.
If it keeps out the "the graphics suck, the quests suck,the gameplay sucks, LOLanal" people off of my game server and makes my play time more enjoyable then I am all for it.
Besides, if you can not make an entire $15 in an entire month then perhaps you should not be spending time playing games. I have lots of bills just like everyone else, but i'll forgo my breakfast at the diner one time a month to be able to play a game that I actually enjoy.
3 days to TRY a game that I'm suppose to spend $225 a year (11 months + $60 for box fee), no thx. Yes, you are welcome to be milked and choose to go on blind and pay the box fees on every new game that is going to get released and it is how poor quality MMO's started on first place without any bright future ahead, but the last decade has proven the opposite.
As long as Mr. X knows that there are players like you out there willing to fork whatever he releases with a popular name (IP) behind it, he will continue to do just the same. It's not how much $ we have compared to how much the product costs, it's how much the product asking for what it offers that matters. Asking $ in front and hoping on players trust is a bad way of doing business and is in my opinion damaging to the future of that product itself.
1. Your math sucks. It's $225 the first year and $180 very year after for the sub.
2. It's our money and we will spend it how we see fit. You don't like it, so what. Exactly who are you to tell others how to spend their money for their entertainment? I'll answer that for you. You are no one of any importance to anyone other than yourself.
Like I said earlier, you like F2P, fine. Have fun playing how you want. Many of us will sleep well at night having never crossed paths with you in our P2P games that we WANT to play.
Originally posted by Viduus I'd rather not play with Russian and Brazillian 12-year-olds.
But that's the thing. No one is forcing you to. Us the players decide with what type of community to be involved. It has nothing to do with the model of the game. The Russian/Brazillian 12 year olds would add additional revenue to the game, which would make that game better experience for you at the end.
It must really tweak your nipples that all the new games are going back to P2P huh?
Firstly, Elder Scroll Online and Wildstar are not "all". Secondly, thx to my wise $ decisions over the last 3 years and 1 month I'm in better position than you or the majority of players when it comes to purchasing power (than I would been if I choose to spend carelessly, in the dark on any new B2P + P2P title). Finally, thx to players like me with high standard and restrain of spending this genre will go forward.
I'm very thankful for my 22 years of exceptional gaming experience that plays a big role today in how much $ I've saved without any regrets.
Originally posted by Viduus I'd rather not play with Russian and Brazillian 12-year-olds.
But that's the thing. No one is forcing you to. Us the players decide with what type of community to be involved. It has nothing to do with the model of the game. The Russian/Brazillian 12 year olds would add additional revenue to the game, which would make that game better experience for you at the end.
It must really tweak your nipples that all the new games are going back to P2P huh?
Firstly, Elder Scroll Online and Wildstar are not "all". Secondly, thx to my wise $ decisions over the last 3 years and 1 month I'm in better position than you or the majority of players when it comes to purchasing power (than I would been if I choose to spend carelessly, in the dark on any new B2P + P2P title). Finally, thx to players like me with high standard and restrain of spending this genre will go forward.
I'm very thankful for my 22 years of exceptional gaming experience that plays a big role today in how much $ I've saved without any regrets.
Did you put all that money in a jar to save it for a good F2P game? If you put it into a savings account it would of made a little interest too.
You keep complaining about not being able to test the game, did you miss the 500,000 beta keys that curse was giving out over a span of a few days? I was able to get TWO keys, one for me, and one for my fiance' and they had over 250,000 left and I waited two days to try to get one....and don't tell me that you did not know about it, it was ALL OVER this website and the forums.
Sub games keep the whiners out and the people from logging in game just to constantly complain about how much they don't like the game. Sub games enhance the communities and bring together people who are actually interested in playing,and are willing to pay the whole .50 a day to support the paychecks of the devs and the company of a whole so that they can bring you quality expansions and better customer support.
FTP games are full of spammers, and immature whiners that bring the community farther apart, just because they don't have to pay to get access to the servers so they login bored and grief people and the chat and in general act like jerks.
If it keeps out the "the graphics suck, the quests suck,the gameplay sucks, LOLanal" people off of my game server and makes my play time more enjoyable then I am all for it.
Besides, if you can not make an entire $15 in an entire month then perhaps you should not be spending time playing games. I have lots of bills just like everyone else, but i'll forgo my breakfast at the diner one time a month to be able to play a game that I actually enjoy.
3 days to TRY a game that I'm suppose to spend $225 a year (11 months + $60 for box fee), no thx. Yes, you are welcome to be milked and choose to go on blind and pay the box fees on every new game that is going to get released and it is how poor quality MMO's started on first place without any bright future ahead, but the last decade has proven the opposite.
As long as Mr. X knows that there are players like you out there willing to fork whatever he releases with a popular name (IP) behind it, he will continue to do just the same. It's not how much $ we have compared to how much the product costs, it's how much the product asking for what it offers that matters. Asking $ in front and hoping on players trust is a bad way of doing business and is in my opinion damaging to the future of that product itself.
1. Your math sucks. It's $225 the first year and $180 very year after for the sub.
2. It's our money and we will spend it how we see fit. You don't like it, so what. Exactly who are you to tell others how to spend their money for their entertainment? I'll answer that for you. You are no one of any importance to anyone other than yourself.
Like I said earlier, you like F2P, fine. Have fun playing how you want. Many of us will sleep well at night having never crossed paths with you in our P2P games that we WANT to play.
Have a nice evening.
1. Your reading sucks. I said "a year", not YEARS and your math is the one that sucks since you forget to add the expansion fee of $40 on every 1.5-2 years.
2. I'm the one who has the right to share his opinion, just as you, that is why forums like these start existing in first place, but you are welcome to come here and insult others telling them they are nobody the moment you hear something you don't like, while being incapable in the same time to bring a valid counter argument.
3. Ty, and I will continue to have fun and you are just a further proof that the P2P community can be worse than F2P with all what you stated above.
Have a nice evening as well. You are welcome to say whatever makes you feel better about yourself to sleep tight tonight.
F2P is the future. It is why we've seen increased F2P over P2P MMO's and other type of games over the last years. Of course what type of F2P system is in place is the most important aspect of the game and this is where most either succeed or fail big.
Wouldn't you want to be in charge of spending your $ or be slapped with monthly and expansion fees? Example...
False dichotomy.
I am no less in charge of spending my money if I choose to pay a recurring subscription (that I can cancel at any time) than if I choose to engage in microtransactions. One *can* play at some more controversial concepts of what it means to 'be in charge' to argue otherwise, but doing so opens up the argument that microtransactions play at insidious psychological manipulation that ultimately reduces, rather than increases, the amount of agency you truly have.
(Pre-orders are another topic entirely, though.)
Yes you are in less charge, since you are paying a fixed sum required which is most of the time costlier than a F2P game.
Since you do apparently want to open up those floodgates...
By entering the realm of F2P, I put my free agency at risk to the following coercive monetization scams frequently abused by such games:
A fixed-rate subscription tells you the cost up front. An F2P game relies on taking your money away insidiously.
WOW example, you must either quit the game and not participate in anything that you've already paid for. You can't continue to PvP or do side things, achivements etc, which is surely not worth $15 a month and the current PvE content is dry/finished with so many months ahead before a new one is released.
I wouldn't play WoW even if it were truly free. I'm not even sure I'd play it if I were paid to do so.
But that aside: who the hell are you, that you think you can tell anyone other than yourself how to evaluate a subjective experience?
Todays games require a lot of space as well and not all got unlimited bandwidth usage with their ISP. It doesn't worth for me to download 20 gigs for 2-3 days of gameplay.
This point is irrelevant, as that issue is consistent whether you are playing F2P or P2P. The rest is mere
If I'm forced to spend 20 gig of my total usage for trying a "beta stage" product for 2-3 days to determine if I should fork $60 or not for only 2-3 days compared to spending 30 days+ before I decide if I should pay through the cash shop....then sure call it "irrelevant".
You're spending 20gig of your total usage either way. Thus, that specific cost is outside the scope of this discussion. We might as well be talking about Sochi shower-cams instead.
Originally posted by Viduus I'd rather not play with Russian and Brazillian 12-year-olds.
But that's the thing. No one is forcing you to. Us the players decide with what type of community to be involved. It has nothing to do with the model of the game. The Russian/Brazillian 12 year olds would add additional revenue to the game, which would make that game better experience for you at the end.
It must really tweak your nipples that all the new games are going back to P2P huh?
Firstly, Elder Scroll Online and Wildstar are not "all". Secondly, thx to my wise $ decisions over the last 3 years and 1 month I'm in better position than you or the majority of players when it comes to purchasing power (than I would been if I choose to spend carelessly, in the dark on any new B2P + P2P title). Finally, thx to players like me with high standard and restrain of spending this genre will go forward.
Actually, no. F2P relies on those who *lack* 'restrain of spending' to remain financially viable. It is only thanks to them, that you are even able to contemplate the possibility of F2P games continuing to exist *at all.*
For every kid playing for free, someone else is paying double the cost of a subscription.
The only playerbase who actually cares for it are Freeloaders who never buy anything anyway. They play the game off of someone else's dollar. As soon as the next big F2P comes along - they jump ship on their current game and start playing something else. Who cares what these people want or think? They didn't buy their right to have an opinion, and they don't care enough for anyone to take them seriously anyway.
Subscription is always better. It always has been. The reason why F2P is "the wave of the future" is because it allows companies to exploit people like me who pay 10 other people's way for playing, while pandering to those 10 other people who don't really want any major upgrades and updates to the game - because they simply don't care enough. They think adding a bunch of superfluous crap to a cash shop that they don't even use is considered "updates". It isn't. The reason it is popular is because it's cheap to maintain and it generates more money from a smaller revenue source, and Freeloaders aren't smart enough to figure out when someone like John Smedley, someone who has been notoriously good at screwing over his player base, heralds F2P as the future.
If I actually had a choice to play a AAA MMO with decent quality and a subscription model - I would play it. And I will as soon as TESO is released. Nothing else about it even matters except that it is subscription based. It could be the exact same game as WoW, and I would still play it based on that one fact alone. Why? Because I refuse to be scammed, and I refuse to allow Freeloaders make up the bulk of a design team's player base - whom they listen to and design for.
The only playerbase who actually cares for it are Freeloaders who never buy anything anyway. They play the game off of someone else's dollar. As soon as the next big F2P comes along - they jump ship on their current game and start playing something else. Who cares what these people want or think? They didn't buy their right to have an opinion, and they don't care enough for anyone to take them seriously anyway.
Subscription is always better. It always has been. The reason why F2P is "the wave of the future" is because it allows companies to exploit people like me who pay 10 other people's way for playing, while pandering to those 10 other people who don't really want any major upgrades and updates to the game - because they simply don't care enough. They think adding a bunch of superfluous crap to a cash shop that they don't even use is considered "updates". It isn't. The reason it is popular is because it's cheap to maintain and it generates more money from a smaller revenue source, and Freeloaders aren't smart enough to figure out when someone like John Smedley, someone who has been notoriously good at screwing over his player base, heralds F2P as the future.
If I actually had a choice to play a AAA MMO with decent quality and a subscription model - I would play it. And I will as soon as TESO is released. Nothing else about it even matters except that it is subscription based. It could be the exact same game as WoW, and I would still play it based on that one fact alone. Why? Because I refuse to be scammed, and I refuse to allow Freeloaders make up the bulk of a design team's player base - whom they listen to and design for.
There is just so many wrong things in that post. Allowing players to try your product before they decide to spend $ is a scam vs charging $ for a product that people have not tried to actually know if it will be good and to involve themself in the long run with.
Saying that the only players who actually care for F2P are the freeloaders who never buy anything. This doesn't even worth to argue spend time to explain and argue about...And then you say they just jump ship to the next "F2P big game", like that's not the case with P2P games. The F2P/P2P model is not a factor for someone quittin a game, otherwise they wouldn't bother to get involve themself and try/pay for the game in first place. People quit and never try games in first place due to costly P2P models with box/expansion fees, late content etc just like F2P products with pay to win cash shops.
Finally, the chance to be scammed spending $ on released game and further monthly fee is far greater because lol that same game will attract less players and turn into the F2P model you very much hate.
I remember how I got flamed and ridiculed when I predicted that SWTOR will go F2P year from launch in this thread...
OP, the reason we've seen a rise in F2P over the years is because companies realized they could make more money with less development costs. It's cheaper to make a game F2P, and just update it with loot boxes, keys, gambling boxes, etc, than it is to try and compete with World of Warcraft.
That's it.
So yes, we get a "free" game, but it's also a free game that will always lack immersion or long-term development beyond the low hanging gambling box fruit.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Firstly, Elder Scroll Online and Wildstar are not "all". Secondly, thx to my wise $ decisions over the last 3 years and 1 month I'm in better position than you or the majority of players when it comes to purchasing power (than I would been if I choose to spend carelessly, in the dark on any new B2P + P2P title). Finally, thx to players like me with high standard and restrain of spending this genre will go forward.
Actually, no. F2P relies on those who *lack* 'restrain of spending' to remain financially viable. It is only thanks to them, that you are even able to contemplate the possibility of F2P games continuing to exist *at all.*
For every kid playing for free, someone else is paying double the cost of a subscription.
So far, you just proved that you are ready to just say whatever regardless how accurate or true it is to make an argument. Let me say this one more time, again it is the players CHOICE if they choose to get themself involved in a PAY TO WIN "free to play model". If they refuse to pay money and still entertain themself in the process, at the end thats their benefit.
There are free to play models out there that existed and exist today where they have proven to be far less costly compared to the P2P model, while in same time they don't have a Pay to Win environment and have generated more $ at least from me, than if they went/remained P2P.
Look at DCUO for example, it surely is not the best F2P model, but they charge their players only $10 for every new, significant content/DLC they've released. Paying $10 for 4-5 months compared to paying $15 every month is surely a better deal. DCUO allows me to choose exactly on what I'm paying with my $ and because of that as I stated above they've earned $ they would not in the first place if they remained a P2P model with monthly $15 fee...
Here's my answer clear and simple. As a person who spends money in games - P2P is actually a much cheaper route. $15/mo or 50 cents a day is great, budget wise. F2P games nickle and dime me so hard. I typically spend a lot more on a solid F2P game. It sucks. Terrible for my wallet.
One other thing. In MOST cases - P2P games offer everyone the same content as long as they pay for it. Thus creating a more fair game.
OP, the reason we've seen a rise in F2P over the years is because companies realized they could make more money with less development costs. It's cheaper to make a game F2P, and just update it with loot boxes, keys, gambling boxes, etc, than it is to try and compete with World of Warcraft.
That's it.
So yes, we get a "free" game, but it's also a free game that will always lack immersion or long-term development beyond the low hanging gambling box fruit.
That's stupid logic. It's not cheaper to make a F2P game.
Yea and the P2P model around it doesn't guarantee you'll get a better game compared to a F2P model game either. In fact it is the reason why many companies lately demand $ up front for their products and keeping them "NDA" as long as possible rather than allowing players to test it before they know more about it and what they are getting themself involved with.
Here's my answer clear and simple. As a person who spends money in games - P2P is actually a much cheaper route. $15/mo or 50 cents a day is great, budget wise. F2P games nickle and dime me so hard. I typically spend a lot more on a solid F2P game. It sucks. Terrible for my wallet.
One other thing. In MOST cases - P2P games offer everyone the same content as long as they pay for it. Thus creating a more fair game.
Thing is, I have not recalled spending more $ on a F2P compared to P2P in my last 12 years of MMORPG experience and I'm sure many here are in the same boat as well.
Originally posted by Viduus I'd rather not play with Russian and Brazillian 12-year-olds.
But that's the thing. No one is forcing you to. Us the players decide with what type of community to be involved. It has nothing to do with the model of the game. The Russian/Brazillian 12 year olds would add additional revenue to the game, which would make that game better experience for you at the end.
Yep and WTG players, you choose not to spend any money and gameplay without any challenge or consequence. And people wonder why we have hundreds of mindless boring games to look forward to.
OP, the reason we've seen a rise in F2P over the years is because companies realized they could make more money with less development costs. It's cheaper to make a game F2P, and just update it with loot boxes, keys, gambling boxes, etc, than it is to try and compete with World of Warcraft.
That's it.
So yes, we get a "free" game, but it's also a free game that will always lack immersion or long-term development beyond the low hanging gambling box fruit.
That's stupid logic. It's not cheaper to make a F2P game.
Yea and the P2P model around it doesn't guarantee you'll get a better game compared to a F2P model game either. In fact it is the reason why many companies lately demand $ up front for their products and keeping them "NDA" as long as possible rather than allowing players to test it before they know more about it and what they are getting themself involved with.
What P2P does guarantee is that I can get EVERY piece of armor, loot, or whatever it is that I want by playing the game.
Every game that releases from this point forward will be F2P or will go F2P within 3-6 months of release. There is no way around this. This is how it will be.
OP, the reason we've seen a rise in F2P over the years is because companies realized they could make more money with less development costs. It's cheaper to make a game F2P, and just update it with loot boxes, keys, gambling boxes, etc, than it is to try and compete with World of Warcraft.
That's it.
So yes, we get a "free" game, but it's also a free game that will always lack immersion or long-term development beyond the low hanging gambling box fruit.
That's stupid logic. It's not cheaper to make a F2P game.
Sure it is. F2P games require *much* less continued development. Keep in mind, we're talking about the MMO genre, where content needs to be regularly updated in a meaningful way. Updates to F2P games almost always focus on content-light things, such as cosmetic items, rare mounts, maybe a new race or class once in a while. They also tend to focus more on PvP-oriented updates like new battleground arenas, rather than PvE stuff like expanded zones and dungeons and raids, etc..
For more examples, look at any game that went from sub to F2P, such as LotRO. They've managed to release expansions post-conversion, but nearly every one of them has been more negatively received than the last, usually because features that were advertised instead get delayed indefinitely. You know what updates keep rolling in? New costumes and mounts.
Games that are designed F2P from the ground up are even worse. You get crap like Neverwinter, where it really shouldn't even be considered an MMO. It's also quite expensive for but the most casual of players.
So yeah, I'd say your average F2P is cheaper to develop and maintain than a sub game, because the experience you're offering is also cheaper.
Originally posted by Superchieftian Every game that releases from this point forward will be F2P or will go F2P within 3-6 months of release. There is no way around this. This is how it will be.
Actually, no. F2P relies on those who *lack* 'restrain of spending' to remain financially viable. It is only thanks to them, that you are even able to contemplate the possibility of F2P games continuing to exist *at all.*
For every kid playing for free, someone else is paying double the cost of a subscription.
Yeh .. and they are called whales.
And i am not one of them. In fact, most players don't pay.
And it is completely voluntary.
So what is your point? If someone is voluntarily subsidizing gaming for me, i do not see a reason not to take advantage of it. It is not like i force them to do so.
Originally posted by Appok Make a great MMORPG then you wont need to go to F2P... look at WoW.....
Exactly my point....
Except the fact that this was 10 years ago, when the F2P model was untested and only several MMO's existed. On top WOW ripped you, me and everyone else here more because we were still younger, unexperienced and careless with our $.
WOW and EVE are also the only two great MMORPG's we've seen over the last decade so they managed to profit from that model, but guess what where is your WOW now? There is a reason why some here already stated that WOW should go F2P.
Ok..I am not a young fella, I played UO since it's 1st year and stayed subbed for over 8 years to it. Loved every minute of it, saw it all from it's first days as a pvp/pk game to it's inclusion of pve facets. Since that time I have played many a free to play game, and yes I have to agree that having subs tends to build better communities.
As to where wow is now...last I seen it still had over a million subs.
Lol,Having subs tends to build better communities. This is just unreal to see this posted. Wow has one of the worse mmo communities i've ever played with. Heck its community is the reason that half the people quit. And no matter what you guys say the communities in mmo's has been in the toilet ever since wow came out. And you people saying you don't want those people in my game almost sound raciist. "Those people" really I haven't played any mmo since wow payed or free where half the player base are aholes. So i guess to you all "those people" must be poor and from 3rd world countries and not people that would rather not spend there money on a sub.
The only playerbase who actually cares for it are Freeloaders who never buy anything anyway. They play the game off of someone else's dollar. As soon as the next big F2P comes along - they jump ship on their current game and start playing something else. Who cares what these people want or think? They didn't buy their right to have an opinion, and they don't care enough for anyone to take them seriously anyway.
Subscription is always better. It always has been. The reason why F2P is "the wave of the future" is because it allows companies to exploit people like me who pay 10 other people's way for playing, while pandering to those 10 other people who don't really want any major upgrades and updates to the game - because they simply don't care enough. They think adding a bunch of superfluous crap to a cash shop that they don't even use is considered "updates". It isn't. The reason it is popular is because it's cheap to maintain and it generates more money from a smaller revenue source, and Freeloaders aren't smart enough to figure out when someone like John Smedley, someone who has been notoriously good at screwing over his player base, heralds F2P as the future.
If I actually had a choice to play a AAA MMO with decent quality and a subscription model - I would play it. And I will as soon as TESO is released. Nothing else about it even matters except that it is subscription based. It could be the exact same game as WoW, and I would still play it based on that one fact alone. Why? Because I refuse to be scammed, and I refuse to allow Freeloaders make up the bulk of a design team's player base - whom they listen to and design for.
There is just so many wrong things in that post. Allowing players to try your product before they decide to spend $ is a scam vs charging $ for a product that people have not tried to actually know if it will be good and to involve themself in the long run with.
Saying that the only players who actually care for F2P are the freeloaders who never buy anything. This doesn't even worth to argue spend time to explain and argue about...And then you say they just jump ship to the next "F2P big game", like that's not the case with P2P games. The F2P/P2P model is not a factor for someone quittin a game, otherwise they wouldn't bother to get involve themself and try/pay for the game in first place. People quit and never try games in first place due to costly P2P models with box/expansion fees, late content etc just like F2P products with pay to win cash shops.
Finally, the chance to be scammed spending $ on released game and further monthly fee is far greater because lol that same game will attract less players and turn into the F2P model you very much hate.
I remember how I got flamed and ridiculed when I predicted that SWTOR will go F2P year from launch in this thread...
I wonder what those same people have to say now....
Offering a Pre-Order before being able to play a game.... it happens all the time in the game industry. For some reason, MMO players have a very false sense of entitlement about this topic. You simply don't look at this topic rationally. If you don't want to pre-order then don't. If you would rather see more gameplay footage before you make your decision... then wait until launch. No one is forcing you to pre-order anything. Your concern is, frankly, a non-issue.
P2P games run very well off of a subscription model. EQ 1 is still subscription based, and it still has a healthy and respectable player base. EVE Online has been going strong with this model for nearly 10 years. WoW is still P2P. Neither of these games have ever even come close to being shut down.
SWTOR is not exactly F2P. Anyone who has ever tried playing this game past lvl 10 knows one thing is certain.... you need to have the Preferred Status. This status costs $15 a month. Trying to play this game without this status past lvl 10 is beyond pointless. You don't have enough hotbar space. You don't have enough inventory space. You don't have enough bank space. You can only carry something like 100k credits... which is chump change. I know they say it's F2P... but underneath... it's still Subscription based. That is why it is doing well right now and why it will continue to do well - it's still subscription based.
It DOES have a cash shop, though. This has less to do with bringing in more players and more to do with EA being the greediest, laziest game company in the business who will do anything to make a buck. Come on... use some common sense here. Despite popular belief... SWTOR was never in trouble - ever. There were never any numbers officially reported to even remotely back this claim up. SWTOR went F2P because EA knows they could make a treasure trove of cash if they offered people more ways to buy crap. And they knew they could do this for one simple reason... it's STAR WARS. When has this IP never been marketted in every concievable way to make money?
"This doesn't even worth to argue spend time to explain and argue about" -- Huh? Rewrite this sentence, please.
Freeloaders do jump ship. They do it all the time. It's the very reason why we see a huge crowd when a game launches, and after the first month... that number drops substantially. I'm not saying every paying customer stays. I'm saying the large portion of the players who leave are Freeloaders. If a Freeloader stayed with a game... they would probably spend money on it. I know they would, because these F2P games are designed specifically to force you to spend money eventually. This design is built into the game - ever wonder why you can't just buy Top Tier gear with simple in-game money anymore? Why you have to collect Tokens or whatever? Why there is always some kind of a boost available in the cash shop which helps you do everything faster? This is why. It's to force you to spend money so you can achieve things that require an impossible grind. In which case... these people who spend money, aren't actually Freeloaders - are they?
Subscription models have stood the test of time. I've given you the three best examples already. The reason why every other MMO who has tried to do it before has failed.... is obvious: THEY'RE THE SAME GAME AS THE GAME YOU JUST STOPPED PLAYING. Ever wonder why all these games feel exactly the same - why there is nothing new? It's because they're all made by the same people under a different banner. Where do you think these people get jobs after launch when the company mysteriously fires everyone? Why... they go to another MMO firm, of course.
*Sigh* These questions you're asking are ridiculous and boring...
Look - you're not really making an argument that hasn't been made before. You're saying the same stuff and you refuse to accept the pretty substantial and reasonable evidence that people provide you over and over and over again. You refuse to accept the truth to the same questions as if there is something else causing everything. I'm sorry if you don't like it that I don't want to pay your fee in a game. But I'm tired of people like you telling me to deal with it.
YOU deal with it. Making people pay for 5 other people to play a game is not good business. It sucks for the person paying the bills. And since people like me are paying the bills... frankly... our opinion is more important than yours.
Comments
It must really tweak your nipples that all the new games are going back to P2P huh?
1. Your math sucks. It's $225 the first year and $180 very year after for the sub.
2. It's our money and we will spend it how we see fit. You don't like it, so what. Exactly who are you to tell others how to spend their money for their entertainment? I'll answer that for you. You are no one of any importance to anyone other than yourself.
Like I said earlier, you like F2P, fine. Have fun playing how you want. Many of us will sleep well at night having never crossed paths with you in our P2P games that we WANT to play.
Have a nice evening.
Firstly, Elder Scroll Online and Wildstar are not "all". Secondly, thx to my wise $ decisions over the last 3 years and 1 month I'm in better position than you or the majority of players when it comes to purchasing power (than I would been if I choose to spend carelessly, in the dark on any new B2P + P2P title). Finally, thx to players like me with high standard and restrain of spending this genre will go forward.
I'm very thankful for my 22 years of exceptional gaming experience that plays a big role today in how much $ I've saved without any regrets.
Did you put all that money in a jar to save it for a good F2P game? If you put it into a savings account it would of made a little interest too.
1. Your reading sucks. I said "a year", not YEARS and your math is the one that sucks since you forget to add the expansion fee of $40 on every 1.5-2 years.
2. I'm the one who has the right to share his opinion, just as you, that is why forums like these start existing in first place, but you are welcome to come here and insult others telling them they are nobody the moment you hear something you don't like, while being incapable in the same time to bring a valid counter argument.
3. Ty, and I will continue to have fun and you are just a further proof that the P2P community can be worse than F2P with all what you stated above.
Have a nice evening as well. You are welcome to say whatever makes you feel better about yourself to sleep tight tonight.
Since you do apparently want to open up those floodgates...
By entering the realm of F2P, I put my free agency at risk to the following coercive monetization scams frequently abused by such games:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EMcNeill/20130809/197958/Exploitative_Game_Design_Beyond_the_F2P_Debate.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?print=1
A fixed-rate subscription tells you the cost up front. An F2P game relies on taking your money away insidiously.
I wouldn't play WoW even if it were truly free. I'm not even sure I'd play it if I were paid to do so.
But that aside: who the hell are you, that you think you can tell anyone other than yourself how to evaluate a subjective experience?
You're spending 20gig of your total usage either way. Thus, that specific cost is outside the scope of this discussion. We might as well be talking about Sochi shower-cams instead.
Actually, no. F2P relies on those who *lack* 'restrain of spending' to remain financially viable. It is only thanks to them, that you are even able to contemplate the possibility of F2P games continuing to exist *at all.*
For every kid playing for free, someone else is paying double the cost of a subscription.No no no... F2P is a scam and it always will be.
The only playerbase who actually cares for it are Freeloaders who never buy anything anyway. They play the game off of someone else's dollar. As soon as the next big F2P comes along - they jump ship on their current game and start playing something else. Who cares what these people want or think? They didn't buy their right to have an opinion, and they don't care enough for anyone to take them seriously anyway.
Subscription is always better. It always has been. The reason why F2P is "the wave of the future" is because it allows companies to exploit people like me who pay 10 other people's way for playing, while pandering to those 10 other people who don't really want any major upgrades and updates to the game - because they simply don't care enough. They think adding a bunch of superfluous crap to a cash shop that they don't even use is considered "updates". It isn't. The reason it is popular is because it's cheap to maintain and it generates more money from a smaller revenue source, and Freeloaders aren't smart enough to figure out when someone like John Smedley, someone who has been notoriously good at screwing over his player base, heralds F2P as the future.
If I actually had a choice to play a AAA MMO with decent quality and a subscription model - I would play it. And I will as soon as TESO is released. Nothing else about it even matters except that it is subscription based. It could be the exact same game as WoW, and I would still play it based on that one fact alone. Why? Because I refuse to be scammed, and I refuse to allow Freeloaders make up the bulk of a design team's player base - whom they listen to and design for.
There is just so many wrong things in that post. Allowing players to try your product before they decide to spend $ is a scam vs charging $ for a product that people have not tried to actually know if it will be good and to involve themself in the long run with.
Saying that the only players who actually care for F2P are the freeloaders who never buy anything. This doesn't even worth to argue spend time to explain and argue about...And then you say they just jump ship to the next "F2P big game", like that's not the case with P2P games. The F2P/P2P model is not a factor for someone quittin a game, otherwise they wouldn't bother to get involve themself and try/pay for the game in first place. People quit and never try games in first place due to costly P2P models with box/expansion fees, late content etc just like F2P products with pay to win cash shops.
Finally, the chance to be scammed spending $ on released game and further monthly fee is far greater because lol that same game will attract less players and turn into the F2P model you very much hate.
I remember how I got flamed and ridiculed when I predicted that SWTOR will go F2P year from launch in this thread...
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?game=367&view=forums&thread=329028&page=1&val=1&uh=68EE285460BFEDDD54E6860C69D7A898
I wonder what those same people have to say now....
OP, the reason we've seen a rise in F2P over the years is because companies realized they could make more money with less development costs. It's cheaper to make a game F2P, and just update it with loot boxes, keys, gambling boxes, etc, than it is to try and compete with World of Warcraft.
That's it.
So yes, we get a "free" game, but it's also a free game that will always lack immersion or long-term development beyond the low hanging gambling box fruit.
You make me like charity
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
So far, you just proved that you are ready to just say whatever regardless how accurate or true it is to make an argument. Let me say this one more time, again it is the players CHOICE if they choose to get themself involved in a PAY TO WIN "free to play model". If they refuse to pay money and still entertain themself in the process, at the end thats their benefit.
There are free to play models out there that existed and exist today where they have proven to be far less costly compared to the P2P model, while in same time they don't have a Pay to Win environment and have generated more $ at least from me, than if they went/remained P2P.
Look at DCUO for example, it surely is not the best F2P model, but they charge their players only $10 for every new, significant content/DLC they've released. Paying $10 for 4-5 months compared to paying $15 every month is surely a better deal. DCUO allows me to choose exactly on what I'm paying with my $ and because of that as I stated above they've earned $ they would not in the first place if they remained a P2P model with monthly $15 fee...
Here's my answer clear and simple. As a person who spends money in games - P2P is actually a much cheaper route. $15/mo or 50 cents a day is great, budget wise. F2P games nickle and dime me so hard. I typically spend a lot more on a solid F2P game. It sucks. Terrible for my wallet.
One other thing. In MOST cases - P2P games offer everyone the same content as long as they pay for it. Thus creating a more fair game.
Yea and the P2P model around it doesn't guarantee you'll get a better game compared to a F2P model game either. In fact it is the reason why many companies lately demand $ up front for their products and keeping them "NDA" as long as possible rather than allowing players to test it before they know more about it and what they are getting themself involved with.
Thing is, I have not recalled spending more $ on a F2P compared to P2P in my last 12 years of MMORPG experience and I'm sure many here are in the same boat as well.
Yep and WTG players, you choose not to spend any money and gameplay without any challenge or consequence. And people wonder why we have hundreds of mindless boring games to look forward to.
What P2P does guarantee is that I can get EVERY piece of armor, loot, or whatever it is that I want by playing the game.
Sure it is. F2P games require *much* less continued development. Keep in mind, we're talking about the MMO genre, where content needs to be regularly updated in a meaningful way. Updates to F2P games almost always focus on content-light things, such as cosmetic items, rare mounts, maybe a new race or class once in a while. They also tend to focus more on PvP-oriented updates like new battleground arenas, rather than PvE stuff like expanded zones and dungeons and raids, etc..
For more examples, look at any game that went from sub to F2P, such as LotRO. They've managed to release expansions post-conversion, but nearly every one of them has been more negatively received than the last, usually because features that were advertised instead get delayed indefinitely. You know what updates keep rolling in? New costumes and mounts.
Games that are designed F2P from the ground up are even worse. You get crap like Neverwinter, where it really shouldn't even be considered an MMO. It's also quite expensive for but the most casual of players.
So yeah, I'd say your average F2P is cheaper to develop and maintain than a sub game, because the experience you're offering is also cheaper.
You make me like charity
I would need to spend a lot more money in an F2P game to get all the content than in a P2P game.
I don't feel like I'm being taking advantage of in P2P. I'm not touching F2P games with a 10 foot pole.
FFXIV is P2P last I checked.
Yeh .. and they are called whales.
And i am not one of them. In fact, most players don't pay.
And it is completely voluntary.
So what is your point? If someone is voluntarily subsidizing gaming for me, i do not see a reason not to take advantage of it. It is not like i force them to do so.
Lol,Having subs tends to build better communities. This is just unreal to see this posted. Wow has one of the worse mmo communities i've ever played with. Heck its community is the reason that half the people quit. And no matter what you guys say the communities in mmo's has been in the toilet ever since wow came out. And you people saying you don't want those people in my game almost sound raciist. "Those people" really I haven't played any mmo since wow payed or free where half the player base are aholes. So i guess to you all "those people" must be poor and from 3rd world countries and not people that would rather not spend there money on a sub.
Offering a Pre-Order before being able to play a game.... it happens all the time in the game industry. For some reason, MMO players have a very false sense of entitlement about this topic. You simply don't look at this topic rationally. If you don't want to pre-order then don't. If you would rather see more gameplay footage before you make your decision... then wait until launch. No one is forcing you to pre-order anything. Your concern is, frankly, a non-issue.
P2P games run very well off of a subscription model. EQ 1 is still subscription based, and it still has a healthy and respectable player base. EVE Online has been going strong with this model for nearly 10 years. WoW is still P2P. Neither of these games have ever even come close to being shut down.
SWTOR is not exactly F2P. Anyone who has ever tried playing this game past lvl 10 knows one thing is certain.... you need to have the Preferred Status. This status costs $15 a month. Trying to play this game without this status past lvl 10 is beyond pointless. You don't have enough hotbar space. You don't have enough inventory space. You don't have enough bank space. You can only carry something like 100k credits... which is chump change. I know they say it's F2P... but underneath... it's still Subscription based. That is why it is doing well right now and why it will continue to do well - it's still subscription based.
It DOES have a cash shop, though. This has less to do with bringing in more players and more to do with EA being the greediest, laziest game company in the business who will do anything to make a buck. Come on... use some common sense here. Despite popular belief... SWTOR was never in trouble - ever. There were never any numbers officially reported to even remotely back this claim up. SWTOR went F2P because EA knows they could make a treasure trove of cash if they offered people more ways to buy crap. And they knew they could do this for one simple reason... it's STAR WARS. When has this IP never been marketted in every concievable way to make money?
"This doesn't even worth to argue spend time to explain and argue about" -- Huh? Rewrite this sentence, please.
Freeloaders do jump ship. They do it all the time. It's the very reason why we see a huge crowd when a game launches, and after the first month... that number drops substantially. I'm not saying every paying customer stays. I'm saying the large portion of the players who leave are Freeloaders. If a Freeloader stayed with a game... they would probably spend money on it. I know they would, because these F2P games are designed specifically to force you to spend money eventually. This design is built into the game - ever wonder why you can't just buy Top Tier gear with simple in-game money anymore? Why you have to collect Tokens or whatever? Why there is always some kind of a boost available in the cash shop which helps you do everything faster? This is why. It's to force you to spend money so you can achieve things that require an impossible grind. In which case... these people who spend money, aren't actually Freeloaders - are they?
Subscription models have stood the test of time. I've given you the three best examples already. The reason why every other MMO who has tried to do it before has failed.... is obvious: THEY'RE THE SAME GAME AS THE GAME YOU JUST STOPPED PLAYING. Ever wonder why all these games feel exactly the same - why there is nothing new? It's because they're all made by the same people under a different banner. Where do you think these people get jobs after launch when the company mysteriously fires everyone? Why... they go to another MMO firm, of course.
*Sigh* These questions you're asking are ridiculous and boring...
Look - you're not really making an argument that hasn't been made before. You're saying the same stuff and you refuse to accept the pretty substantial and reasonable evidence that people provide you over and over and over again. You refuse to accept the truth to the same questions as if there is something else causing everything. I'm sorry if you don't like it that I don't want to pay your fee in a game. But I'm tired of people like you telling me to deal with it.
YOU deal with it. Making people pay for 5 other people to play a game is not good business. It sucks for the person paying the bills. And since people like me are paying the bills... frankly... our opinion is more important than yours.