So we will get into a position where monkee specs are not going to be flavour of the week for any serious players running dungeons.
For starters .. .if you roll up to these first dungeons with Billy Farkwit that thinks he can just equip a resto staff for near enough the first time and be the main healer of the group things are not going to end well for everyone relying on him to heal them.
Thats going to happen a lot . Same for effective Tanks and effective DPS.
Then we get Johnny Sheetforbrains who chirps in and says that he can heal himself and someone else that they have a pile of pots on them (that they are going to have fun trying to actually use from what i have seen from the Quickslot ability)
A level 10 group with no weapon swapping is going to need a capable healer and capable DPS and some relatively decent tanking skills not a bunch of useless hybrids with points spent allover the place.
So unless you are in a guild with solid friends and supportive players levelling at your pace, plenty of players are going to find themselves in the shit when it comes to running this content at lower levels. We cant inspect Billy Farkwit or Johnny Sheetforbrains so we are going to run these places blind and it is going to cost a lot in repairs.
Most players are going to want to run this content at the high end of the level requirement simply because the combination of pug groups and no trinity makes it too easy for you to end up in a group that is going to die every few minutes.
It looks fun? (raised eyebrow) While that is subjective, I see nothing innovative, challenging, or unique about a dungeon that is scripted like every other dungeon that has come before it that would make this fun; with mobs providing no deviation whether it's your first trip or 1,000th trip into it. This blueprint of entering a dungeon where the trash / boss mobs are in the exact same place they were before and do the exact same thing they did the last time to fend you off offers nothing that we haven't already played or seen for the past 10+ years in MMORPG's.
I get what you're saying, but can you give me an example of a game where the dungeon somehow adjusts to provide a more appropriate challenge every time you do it?
Your question is EXACTLY my point; not what we have seen time and time again.
Well, many of the dungeons I've played that have been designed this way were indeed fun. So yes, this dungeon looks like it is fun to play through. And the 4 people seen playing seem to be having fun doing it.
Now, you imply that this type of dungeon design is not fun and a different one should be used. So i ask again, in your experience, what dungeon design has been "fun" to you? I take pride in playing a lot of different MMOs and exploring different mechanics, if there is a kind of fun that i'm missing out on, then I'd like to know where it is so i can try it.
I appreciate and respect the fact you enjoy dungeons that are designed this way (the same every time). For me, are they fun the10th.....20th...100th time I do them? For me, the answer is no.
Of course the four ppl playing it seem to be having fun doing it. It's new to them isn't it? Let's see if it's still as fun 6 months to a year from now when they have run it over and over and over again.
I don't imply this type of dungeon is not fun, Im clearly stating it isnt. Furthermore, in doing so, i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.
I don't understand one part of what you are saying... WHY would they be running it over and over and over? Why do you assume the dungeons are meant to run over and over, or what gain is there?
Originally posted by Fermian Looks good, however, I think 4 man groups is a bad move. Just a bad dps vs healer vs tank ratio.
This isn't a pure trinity game. A 4 man group can be a mix is nearly anything. Several dps bouncing aggro with a heal or 2 for backup or a traditional trinity setup or anything else. People are not "stuck" in a spec. You can change weapons, skills, armor at any time to adjust to a group's demands.
Your concern only applies in pure trinity games where tanks and healers are often rare. That is not the case in ESO.
People died tons in Stormhold and Fallen Gate (early EQ2 dungeons).
People died plenty in TSW (it has some of the best dungeons i've played actually).
People died lots in the first RIft dungeon, they it got nerfed hard (Not realm of the fae, the other side one, i forget name, fae was always easy).
So yeah, people do die. Gotta be some skill involved in play. This looks like just a solid group though.
There should be consequences for these people dying.
In all my examples - there were. You fail, you get nothing or you have to invest more of your time trying again. Depending on the game, there are stats and monetary penalties also. IDK about ESO, since i didn't do these dungeons. But i assume that if you can't kill the boss, you get no loot for the time you spent doing the dungeon, so it's basically a waste of time and money (spent on consummables, etc.). In TSW if you died, you were out of the fight completely, that made things pretty fun (And pretty frustrating at times).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
People died tons in Stormhold and Fallen Gate (early EQ2 dungeons).
People died plenty in TSW (it has some of the best dungeons i've played actually).
People died lots in the first RIft dungeon, they it got nerfed hard (Not realm of the fae, the other side one, i forget name, fae was always easy).
So yeah, people do die. Gotta be some skill involved in play. This looks like just a solid group though.
There should be consequences for these people dying.
In all my examples - there were. You fail, you get nothing or you have to invest more of your time trying again. Depending on the game, there are stats and monetary penalties also. IDK about ESO, since i didn't do these dungeons. But i assume that if you can't kill the boss, you get no loot for the time you spent doing the dungeon, so it's basically a waste of time and money (spent on consummables, etc.). In TSW if you died, you were out of the fight completely, that made things pretty fun (And pretty frustrating at times).
Gear degrades on death and you have to repair it.. you may think... oh that's nothing. Yeah... gold doesn't explode out of trees like most games several times I had to go make some stuff to sell to afford repairs and I don't buy any items. Skulls...I eventually succeeded at one higher level than me so don't give me crap about it being because I suck.
I don't think there are XP or other penalties for dungeons though... so other than that, IDK.
So we will get into a position where monkee specs are not going to be flavour of the week for any serious players running dungeons.
For starters .. .if you roll up to these first dungeons with Billy Farkwit that thinks he can just equip a resto staff for near enough the first time and be the main healer of the group things are not going to end well for everyone relying on him to heal them.
Thats going to happen a lot . Same for effective Tanks and effective DPS.
Then we get Johnny Sheetforbrains who chirps in and says that he can heal himself and someone else that they have a pile of pots on them (that they are going to have fun trying to actually use from what i have seen from the Quickslot ability)
A level 10 group with no weapon swapping is going to need a capable healer and capable DPS and some relatively decent tanking skills not a bunch of useless hybrids with points spent allover the place.
So unless you are in a guild with solid friends and supportive players levelling at your pace, plenty of players are going to find themselves in the shit when it comes to running this content at lower levels. We cant inspect Billy Farkwit or Johnny Sheetforbrains so we are going to run these places blind and it is going to cost a lot in repairs.
Most players are going to want to run this content at the high end of the level requirement simply because the combination of pug groups and no trinity makes it too easy for you to end up in a group that is going to die every few minutes.
It sounds like you want a game where you get to personally decide what everyone around you wears and what abilities they use.
Some people do stupid things in MMO's. Yea it's a fact and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. I would even bet that at some point somewhere someone thought you where doing stupid things. The only thing you can do is choose to not let them affect you by grouping up with people who don't do stupid things. If you use the auto group builder than your SOL which honestly is how it should be in my opinion. If you want a quick group that may or may not succeed or you might have to carry than go ahead and use the auto builder tool. If you would prefer a group of people who actually knows what they are doing than build it yourself either from your guild, friends list or LFG spam. The game should really support both methods of play with easy dungeons that give easy to get gear and really hard dungeons that require smart play, good teamwork, and give harder to get gear.
I appreciate and respect the fact you enjoy dungeons that are designed this way (the same every time). For me, are they fun the10th.....20th...100th time I do them? For me, the answer is no.
Of course the four ppl playing it seem to be having fun doing it. It's new to them isn't it? Let's see if it's still as fun 6 months to a year from now when they have run it over and over and over again.
I don't imply this type of dungeon is not fun, Im clearly stating it isnt. Furthermore, in doing so, i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.
What a bummer gaming life you have if these dungeons aren't fun for you on even the first run through simply because they remain static every time.
Dynamic dungeons do sound fun, though. I wish there was an MMO out there that had them!
I appreciate and respect the fact you enjoy dungeons that are designed this way (the same every time). For me, are they fun the10th.....20th...100th time I do them? For me, the answer is no.
Of course the four ppl playing it seem to be having fun doing it. It's new to them isn't it? Let's see if it's still as fun 6 months to a year from now when they have run it over and over and over again.
I don't imply this type of dungeon is not fun, Im clearly stating it isnt. Furthermore, in doing so, i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.
What a bummer gaming life you have if these dungeons aren't fun for you on even the first run through simply because they remain static every time.
Dynamic dungeons do sound fun, though. I wish there was an MMO out there that had them!
One could argue that EVE has them at least to some respects. Wildstar is promising at least small changes to boss mechanics each run though to add flavor to repeating them and EQN if they can do what they say they want to do will have true procedural generation of dungeons. But yea other than that the MMO world is a very static one.
Oh I forgot the new TSW scenarios. They have some random elements each run.
Nice to see someone present a preview without any agendas. Just "this is what we're doing and this is how we're doing it." Much more informative this way.
Click-baiting opinionated press take note: this is the way previews should be done. Save your opinions for editorials so we can skip those..
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Obviously every of the 3 times 5 zones has its own dungeon... Making for a total of 15 dungeons... From which 11 are at max level... Sounds like a good amount
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
If this video gave you the impression the starter(lvl 11-14) dungeons are easy, let me point out something. The group in the video is a pre-made that has out leveled the content. I am sure it was not their first experience with these instances as well.
Originally posted by deniter I know there is a dungeon finder tool in ESO, but does it work like in WoW? I mean, does it teleport your group straight to the instance?
You can TP to group members, or close to them at least. Not sure about going IN the instance though, but that's close enough.
These are the 4 man instances dungeons. There are several other open public dungeons as well that have various degrees of difficulty and content requiring grouping to accomplish everything.
Nice to see someone present a preview without any agendas. Just "this is what we're doing and this is how we're doing it." Much more informative this way.
Click-baiting opinionated press take note: this is the way previews should be done. Save your opinions for editorials so we can skip those..
These are the 4 man instances dungeons. There are several other open public dungeons as well that have various degrees of difficulty and content requiring grouping to accomplish everything.
And to add to this... these are the only times you are restricted to a group of 4. Anywhere else--open dungeons, world bosses, dark anchors, PVP, etc., you can make your group a raid with up to 24 people.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.
consider me stupid then, because it's still not quite clear to me. what game has the type of dungeon you enjoy? maybe i missed a post.
Don't bother waiting for a coherent answer. This is a common problem among armchair developers, they can't tell you what they want or how to even go about implementing it. It's the same cognitive dissonance people that want quest choice to 'matter' but then deride phasing or instances and no idea how to resolve the issue of a persistent world.
Dungeons that change?
How? Randomized maps? Mobs? Completely different dungeon for no reason?
Originally posted by deniter I know there is a dungeon finder tool in ESO, but does it work like in WoW? I mean, does it teleport your group straight to the instance?
You can TP to group members, or close to them at least. Not sure about going IN the instance though, but that's close enough.
You can't travel to the other faction areas, so to do those dungeons you have to TP there.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
consider me stupid then, because it's still not quite clear to me. what game has the type of dungeon you enjoy? maybe i missed a post.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
So we will get into a position where monkee specs are not going to be flavour of the week for any serious players running dungeons.
For starters .. .if you roll up to these first dungeons with Billy Farkwit that thinks he can just equip a resto staff for near enough the first time and be the main healer of the group things are not going to end well for everyone relying on him to heal them.
Thats going to happen a lot . Same for effective Tanks and effective DPS.
Then we get Johnny Sheetforbrains who chirps in and says that he can heal himself and someone else that they have a pile of pots on them (that they are going to have fun trying to actually use from what i have seen from the Quickslot ability)
A level 10 group with no weapon swapping is going to need a capable healer and capable DPS and some relatively decent tanking skills not a bunch of useless hybrids with points spent allover the place.
So unless you are in a guild with solid friends and supportive players levelling at your pace, plenty of players are going to find themselves in the shit when it comes to running this content at lower levels. We cant inspect Billy Farkwit or Johnny Sheetforbrains so we are going to run these places blind and it is going to cost a lot in repairs.
Most players are going to want to run this content at the high end of the level requirement simply because the combination of pug groups and no trinity makes it too easy for you to end up in a group that is going to die every few minutes.
There should be consequences for these people dying.
Not playing it then
I don't understand one part of what you are saying... WHY would they be running it over and over and over? Why do you assume the dungeons are meant to run over and over, or what gain is there?
This isn't a pure trinity game. A 4 man group can be a mix is nearly anything. Several dps bouncing aggro with a heal or 2 for backup or a traditional trinity setup or anything else. People are not "stuck" in a spec. You can change weapons, skills, armor at any time to adjust to a group's demands.
Your concern only applies in pure trinity games where tanks and healers are often rare. That is not the case in ESO.
You stay sassy!
In all my examples - there were. You fail, you get nothing or you have to invest more of your time trying again. Depending on the game, there are stats and monetary penalties also. IDK about ESO, since i didn't do these dungeons. But i assume that if you can't kill the boss, you get no loot for the time you spent doing the dungeon, so it's basically a waste of time and money (spent on consummables, etc.). In TSW if you died, you were out of the fight completely, that made things pretty fun (And pretty frustrating at times).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Gear degrades on death and you have to repair it.. you may think... oh that's nothing. Yeah... gold doesn't explode out of trees like most games several times I had to go make some stuff to sell to afford repairs and I don't buy any items. Skulls...I eventually succeeded at one higher level than me so don't give me crap about it being because I suck.
I don't think there are XP or other penalties for dungeons though... so other than that, IDK.
It sounds like you want a game where you get to personally decide what everyone around you wears and what abilities they use.
Some people do stupid things in MMO's. Yea it's a fact and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. I would even bet that at some point somewhere someone thought you where doing stupid things. The only thing you can do is choose to not let them affect you by grouping up with people who don't do stupid things. If you use the auto group builder than your SOL which honestly is how it should be in my opinion. If you want a quick group that may or may not succeed or you might have to carry than go ahead and use the auto builder tool. If you would prefer a group of people who actually knows what they are doing than build it yourself either from your guild, friends list or LFG spam. The game should really support both methods of play with easy dungeons that give easy to get gear and really hard dungeons that require smart play, good teamwork, and give harder to get gear.
What a bummer gaming life you have if these dungeons aren't fun for you on even the first run through simply because they remain static every time.
Dynamic dungeons do sound fun, though. I wish there was an MMO out there that had them!
One could argue that EVE has them at least to some respects. Wildstar is promising at least small changes to boss mechanics each run though to add flavor to repeating them and EQN if they can do what they say they want to do will have true procedural generation of dungeons. But yea other than that the MMO world is a very static one.
Oh I forgot the new TSW scenarios. They have some random elements each run.
Looks gorgeous.
Nice to see someone present a preview without any agendas. Just "this is what we're doing and this is how we're doing it." Much more informative this way.
Click-baiting opinionated press take note: this is the way previews should be done. Save your opinions for editorials so we can skip those..
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
16 public and 16 instanced dungeons at launch. Yeah man, I'm totally not playing it either because of this. /sarcasm off
If this video gave you the impression the starter(lvl 11-14) dungeons are easy, let me point out something. The group in the video is a pre-made that has out leveled the content. I am sure it was not their first experience with these instances as well.
You can TP to group members, or close to them at least. Not sure about going IN the instance though, but that's close enough.
Just to point out if not already:
These are the 4 man instances dungeons. There are several other open public dungeons as well that have various degrees of difficulty and content requiring grouping to accomplish everything.
You stay sassy!
Those were my thoughts too when I watched it.
And to add to this... these are the only times you are restricted to a group of 4. Anywhere else--open dungeons, world bosses, dark anchors, PVP, etc., you can make your group a raid with up to 24 people.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Don't bother waiting for a coherent answer. This is a common problem among armchair developers, they can't tell you what they want or how to even go about implementing it. It's the same cognitive dissonance people that want quest choice to 'matter' but then deride phasing or instances and no idea how to resolve the issue of a persistent world.
Dungeons that change?
How? Randomized maps? Mobs? Completely different dungeon for no reason?
You won't get an answer arieste.
You can't travel to the other faction areas, so to do those dungeons you have to TP there.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
4-man party size. Kill it with fire!
When will these companies learn?